Running

Trojan

Hey all,

Here's some semi-incoherent ramblings I'm thinking about and looking for some answers.

Current regime:

I'm training about 3 - 5 times a week in Westwood (Fairview) depending on when I can make it, normally 4 lunchtimes a week and/or 2 or 2 evenings.

Training consists of either a short run (3k), and a weights programme, or a longer run (>=5k) and no weights. Running is on the treadmill, which I have no problem with. I usually spend 20 or 30 mins in the jacuzzi and sauna after

My times for running are usually around 25 min mark for 5k, and I did 8k in 47:19 on Sat - these times for me are pretty good - I'm short and stocky, typical front-row material - though the times probably won't impress anyone else here. I mostly do interval running, 4 mins at fast (12km/h - 14 km/h), and 1 min at easy (5 - 9 km/h) and keep increasing the speed of the fast portion. For the last part of the run I throw it up to 16.1 km/h (fastest their treadmills go) and try and maintain that for a minute or 2 - killer at the end of a few k.

One thing that annoys me is that I feel that I can't catch my breath sometimes at the top speed, therefore have to pull back to 13km/h or so for a few seconds to get it back, this is affecting my times as I can't go flat out for sustained periods. Anyone got any advice on this? Will it just go as my fitness improves? Is my technique wrong?

How does this type of training sound for general aerobic improvement and fat burning?

Where in Dublin can I find a decent pair of running shoes (those muppets in Champion Sports haven't a notion)?

I'm not a big fan of lower body weights, just don't like doing it much - squats and leg-presses fine, but the rest really bore me. I feel that doing a lot of running will help build strength and stamina, but possibly I should do more work here - comments?

Goals:

- play front-row, social team rugby, after xmas (after 4 years of non-playing)
- get fit
- lose fat (carry a fair bit)


I'm 14st (90kg), 5ft 7, and have stayed almost exactly same weight for last 3 months of training. Like Andy, I drink a fair bit, and perhaps more than one night a week. I smoke quite a bit passively I'd say, but not actively

Oh, and my bench would impress neither Jak or Logic

Please let me have your advice or comments.

Cheers,
Al.

yop

Al

From a "fat mans" (mine not yours!) point of view that training you are doing inmho should be losing the fat, what could be happening here is your fat is turning to muscle - get your fat measured now and then again in a month or so and see what the difference is.
Also the auld pints of arthur will not be helping the cause as would eating white bread, sticks to the gut.

As for the running I got a pair of Asics which were recommeded by a marathon runnner

Gluck

Trojan

Another question for people: are there any 5 - 10k races in Dublin in the next few months? Is there an online list? (google didn't help)

Originally posted by yop
Al

From a "fat mans" (mine not yours!)

Well actually, according to the Body Mass Index (BMI), a person of my height-weight ratio is obese! I am not the slimmest, but I certainly don't consider myself obese

Originally posted by yop
point of view that training you are doing inmho should be losing the fat, what could be happening here is your fat is turning to muscle - get your fat measured now and then again in a month or so and see what the difference is.

Yeah, defo, I agree with you there. I'm not a fan of "weight-loss" as a term when "fat-burning" is really the goal. I should have clarified: I am not at all concerned about the fact that my weight hasn't dropped. In fact, if I want to play front row again I'll need to bulk at least a stone and a half - 2 stone more, without adding fat.

Originally posted by yop

Also the auld pints of arthur will not be helping the cause as would eating white bread, sticks to the gut.

Besides the drink my diet is actually very good. I do like the pints though. My solution is more training, not less drinking! I'm not a diet kinda person

Originally posted by yop

As for the running I got a pair of Asics which were recommeded by a marathon runnner

Gluck

Cool. I was just talking to ecksor on irc, he's bought Asics himself recently, in Arnotts of all places. I'll go try there. He got GT-2070s FYI.

Cheers,
Al.

Jak

Well Daveirl or Ecksor would be the best qualified for running tips no doubt Al.

At your height, even for playing hooker, I'd say you should not be aiming to go over 15stone/95kg to be honest.

I don't think you need to adopt a staged approach to this .. i.e lose weight, get fit, tone up, bulk up, get strong. I'd say if your end goal is to be a better hooker you should just make a few changes and see where you land.

Keep up the running and cardio stuff, and maybe limit yourself to 4 sessions a week. 2 cardio - maybe alternate one rowing, one running and 2 weights with maybe a Chest/Back day and Shoulders/Arms day. Try not to mix your cardio and weight sessions, you should be working hard enough at each that you don't really have the energy to give it all for a separate session after. Give yourself ample rest and split cardio - weights - rest - cardio - rest - weights - rest ideally. I can maybe give some pointers on the two weight sessions, in another reply tho.

Look into supplementation. You should be getting about 150gms protein a day into you while training - ideally spread over the day on off days and on training days just split the intake before and after the session (whey protein with water would be best). This is utterly essential to getting the most out of your training.

Consider your diet carefully, make sure you have all your bases covered regarding vitamins, clean up your food sources and maybe try a little harder to keep your drinking to one night a week ... like me

I would reccomend creatine, but I think that's something I will likely need a thread on and I don't have time for it now It is not evil however, nor a wonder drug, but can be beneficial for recovery and gettin the most out of back to back sessions.

Don't obsess about weight while doing all this, just see how well your fitness and strength progress. Record everything, keep track.

Anyhows, seeing as you are pestering me on IRC I will end this.

Will probs put in some ideas for the weight sessions depending on what you think.

JAK.

Kegser

An important part of training you seem to be overlooking in your post is the nutrition aspect.

You need to be eating the right kinds of foods in the right quantities to keep your energy levels up during training for a start... or your energy levels will deplete and your body will tire easily.

Secondly in the hour after training you should eat a healthy meal which gives you a balance of carbs to replace lost energy and proteins to help speed up the muscle recovery and rebuilding process. The amount you intake depends on a number of factors; like whether you're trying to build lean muscle mass or not.

I have to disagree with Jak on one or two points; beginning a weights session with a bit of cardio is an absolute must in my opinion. If only to warm yourself up and get the juices flowing. 15-20 minutes of cardio followed by at least 5 minutes of stretching and 10+ minutes of ab-work is how I start my sessions. I also end my sessions with more stretching and some light cardio to warm down. Especially with regards to weight training a minimum of a days rest between workouts is essential to allow your muscles to grow and repair themselves.

In reference to creatine I don't think you should use it; I don't think you really have any need to. It's a debatable point though; and I'm sure a wonderful debate will begin at some stage in another thread with regards to benefits and drawbacks, so I'll leave it for now.

Protein supplements? Well... if you're really looking to build muscle then sure protein supplements can help out. However, don't try and get all your protein from supplements because it's a bit counter-productive. Whey is a good source of protein; but a nice meal with some fresh fish properly prepared will get protein aswell as beneficial polyunsaturated fats into your system. Soy in small amounts can compliment your protein intake also; although I haven't really used Soy proteins myself so can't really comment.

I guess it all depends how seriously you want to take it... although I know a few huge bastids whi drink like troopers but really look after their diets and workouts most of the week. By huge I mean muscular and incredibly fit.

Jak

beginning a weights session with a bit of cardio is an absolute must in my opinion. If only to warm yourself up and get the juices flowing. 15-20 minutes of cardio followed by at least 5 minutes of stretching

This is why we have warm up sets in programs. There is *no* better way to get your muscles ready for training than performing the excercise a few times with lower weight as you build up to your 'work' sets. Mix this with some stretching prior and in between sets and you are fine.

Also, prior to weights a ten minute ab session can be somewhat counter productive as the stomach is a large muscle group and you tend to be drawing blood away from your other muscle groups you are about to use. A small point, but it is true, abs are best left to the end, or ideally done on their own day with another group.

We will leave the creatine issue for now. But when it comes to the discussion, I hope we will have more depth as to why exactly some of you are against it.

As for the protein comments. I do get my protein from other sources as well, and I was suggesting Al do the same - hence supplements are known as supplements. But also I don't think you appreciate the scale of protein we are talking about here. Supplementation is possibly the only healthy means of getting those levels of protein into your system. A Whey protein supplement is an integral part of any serious weight trainers diet.

Look at some diet charts and see how much food you would need to eat to get 250-300gms protein into your system without supps.

Kegser

In regards to the protein statement I was merely trying to get the point accross that supplements should not be treated as the ONLY source of protein. I've seen some people use supplements to the exclusion of healthy foods containing proteins as part of a balanced mass-gaining diet.

From Trojans post I got the distinct impression he's not in this purely to gain mass; and under the circumstances there should be no need for protein supplements. A balanced diet should contain all he needs.

Personally I agree with you; since I'm training to gain mass I use protein supplements and it's a perfectly healthy way to get protein.

I have found that working the abs before weight sets helps increase my energy levels to a certain extent and also helps to lessen soreness in my abs after workouts. I've experimented with a few different routines... cardio before and after weights, light stretching and no cardio etc. and I've found Cardio>Stretching>Abwork>Weights>Cardio>Stretching to be the most effective for me.

Some sessions I won't work my abs before launching into the weights because I'm on an upper-body blitz and work my abs hard as part of my sets.

And with regards to cardio; if all you want is to increase muscle mass then there is no real need, however for general fitness, aerobic capacity and quicker recovery times I find it beneficial. Again, this is just me.

There's always so much disagreement between people who train, it's great

Jak

True true - and in the end most people will find their own way of doing things (be it the best way or otherwise) regardless of what they are told.

The general idea I had was of getting into shape as a hooker. Which will require fitness and strength, and would mean not having the ability to neglect one at the expense of the other.

I still stand by my belief that cardio days should not be mixed with weight days. Don't confuse a cardio warm up with a cardio session (though I still think all you need is warm up and work sets). If you do a 30min erg session to about 8000m there is no way in hell you should be able to do some weights after. In return, if you do a full shoulders/arms session - finishing with burn out sets, there is again no way in hell you should be able to do a 30min erg session.

You should be giving your cardio or weights your all on any given day - this is why you should not be *able* to mix them.


As for the protein again. Anyone who is training to a reasonable level would have a beneficial reaction to an upped protein intake. You may get by without it, but if you are really looking to get the most in muscle growth out of your training then you should be taking it as it is extremely unlikely you are getting the optimal level of protein for your weight into your system from diet alone. This, and I don't use the term lightly, is fact. Not on these boards, but in real life I have just given up trying to tell people this, and yet they will still come to me and bitch and moan about their slow progress etc.

Also, I always advise supplements as just that - not replacements for a balanced diet.

JAK.

Trojan

Hi guys,

Thanks for your comments.

Regarding diet:

I currently have a no-supplement, quite-low fat diet, with a fair amount of carbs (pasta/rice not spuds usually), and I'd guess slightly more protein in the form of tuna or chicken than the average guy in the street. That's the food side of things - the low fat diet aint helped by 12 - 25 pints per week I drink a fair bit of water, esp when training, and almost never soft-drinks.

Training:

I already described my training sessions - I'm not very strict about going at the same time every day etc, but over the course of 2 weeks I find I've usually gone 6 or 7 times, normally on alternate days, but sometimes consecutively. I do mix weights and cardio, I'm not very strict in this either. I would disagree with one thing you said Andy - it is very easy to push oneself to the limit on say an 8k run, and then turn around and pump iron. I don't think it means you didn't work hard enough on the run.

Goals:

My goal is not currently to bulk up, though that will be my plan in just a few months time. Right now I'd like to burn as much fat as possible, while still continuing my weights programme.

Thanks for comments,
Al.

logic1

I know the bare minimum about aerobic training so one of the other lads would be much better qualified on this but I think a good way for Al himself to track his progress is if he did a Beep test, noted down his progress then in a months time run another or however long he wants between session.

This would give him a good idea of where he stands and how much he has improved aerobically between the two sessions.

Again I know very little about it but I'm led to believe the beep test gives a fairly good indicator of your aerobic fitness levels so it may be an idea. Again if Daveirl has any ideas on this good or bad please post em up!

As regards doing a cardio session in with a weights session I don't know about anyone else but I definately couldn't do it. When I hit the weights afterwards I'm literally a ball of piss. Shaking, sweating, tired and totally exhausted. If I hit cardio for any length of time longer than an 5/10 minute warm up I know for a fact I couldn't hit the weights as hard as I want to or get pumped as much as I want to. And after I finish weights there's not a hope I could hop on a bike and do 30 minutes cycling or rowing. I just wouldn't be able to give it as much dedication as I want to.

.logic.

Jak

it is very easy to push oneself to the limit on say an 8k run, and then turn around and pump iron

It should never be very easy. I say again, if you have no problems with it either you are not working hard enough on the run, or you have a different perception of giving it your all in a weights session. Morning/Evening split training is hard enough, but right on the back of the same session - you are doing yourself no favours at all with that approach.

It is not just about what muscles you are using, but general energy levels and drive - which should be mostly burned up at the end of a session.

I'm not saying it can't be done, obviously that would just be wrong. My point is that is not training smart.

JAK.

Trojan

You're probably right there Andy, I am not training in the smartest or most efficient way. However, in my defense, I argue that there is a difference between being unable to run any more, and actually having no energy left- ymmv (no pun intended )

Regards Nialls suggestion, beep test does sound interesting, and it would be useful to have some base point to work from. I'm currently logging time/distance on my runs, but not logging weights sessions.

I think I need to look at creating a new weights session, maybe breaking it down less - currently I'm doing my upper body stuff no problem, but ignoring leg workouts (on those days I just decide to go for a run instead).

Al.

Trojan

Ok guys, I bow down prostrate before thee, wave my magic snakes head and request diet advice. Logic won't give me any (advice) cos he says he's an extreme dieter - I'm not looking for anything like that, just some realistic advice on whether I do need supplements (as you've suggested Andy) etc.

Al.

logic1

Well ok for a start I'd try cut out the 60 or so pints a week you consume (come on I've seen you do it)

You don't have to curb intake completely but substantially. I stopped completely for the last few months.

As regards creatine supplementation Jak would be the man to give you pointers here for what you're trying to do. For protein get from 150g + into you each day. You can mess around with the numbers for your own benefits and goals but around this level is good. I get mine from 2 chicken breasts a day, two cans of tuna, 2 protein shakes and eggs. I take in a bit more than 150 as I don't take in any carbs.

As long as you eat clean diet will look after itself, no processed foods, white sugars, white breads, white rice, potatoes while you're trying to slim down although one or two of these meal types a week isn't going to hurt you. Just not every single day.

Also get a good multi vitamin, drink plenty of water as much as you think you can drink then some more. For your type of excercise you will need carbohydrates so maybe try wholemeal bread, vegetables, wholemeal pasta things of that sort.

You know your stuff anyway so you know what's gonna be good for you and bad for you. I wouldn't worry too much about calorie counting. I did it for the firsth month but once you get a meal routine you know what you're gonna be taking in on a daily basis. Best thing to do is find your personal calorific maintenance level then eat a little less than that every week. Weight will slip off gradually and safely.

Then you get to have fun bulking back up! It's hard to lose fat and build muscle but it can be done. It involved switching between a catabolic state and an anti-catabolic state. You won't see huge returns but you will tighten up and harden while cutting off fat.

Good training, good diet and good rest is the key.

.logic.

daveirl

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daveirl

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daveirl

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Trojan

Originally posted by daveirl
Well two things could be happening here. Maybe you might be going too hard? If you could get your hands on a heart rate monitor that would be a great help with checking this. If you do get one try and stay between 75%-85% of your maximum heart rate. Generally if you are way too out of breath its because you are pushing yourself too hard.

Yeah, I reckon that's it. I have tried very hard to breath properly at that pace but just can't catch it. Hopefully this will improve over time.

I'll have a look at the prices of those Polar jobs and see what the story is.

Originally posted by daveirl

Go into a newsagents and pick up a copy of Irish Runner. There is a comprehensive list in every issue of that.

Cheers.

Originally posted by daveirl

BMI isn't a good measurement for all. It's just a general measurement.

Yeah. It doesn't apply very well to 5'7" front-row players

Cheers,
Al.

Trojan

Originally posted by logic1
Well ok for a start I'd try cut out the 60 or so pints a week you consume (come on I've seen you do it)

You don't have to curb intake completely but substantially. I stopped completely for the last few months.

Ah, feck off. I can't afford that many. But I take your point.

Originally posted by logic1

As regards creatine supplementation Jak would be the man to give you pointers here for what you're trying to do. For protein get from 150g + into you each day. You can mess around with the numbers for your own benefits and goals but around this level is good. I get mine from 2 chicken breasts a day, two cans of tuna, 2 protein shakes and eggs. I take in a bit more than 150 as I don't take in any carbs.

Seems like an awful lot of protein, but I read Andys post above too, so I'm probably not getting enough. How much do I need, given my training and that I weight 90kg?

Originally posted by logic1

As long as you eat clean diet will look after itself, no processed foods, white sugars, white breads, white rice, potatoes while you're trying to slim down although one or two of these meal types a week isn't going to hurt you. Just not every single day.

Also get a good multi vitamin, drink plenty of water as much as you think you can drink then some more. For your type of excercise you will need carbohydrates so maybe try wholemeal bread, vegetables, wholemeal pasta things of that sort.

Yeah, my diet aint too bad at the mo. I don't want to change it too much, but swapping brown for white <foo> is something I've done in the last 3 months.

Originally posted by logic1

You know your stuff anyway so you know what's gonna be good for you and bad for you. I wouldn't worry too much about calorie counting. I did it for the firsth month but once you get a meal routine you know what you're gonna be taking in on a daily basis. Best thing to do is find your personal calorific maintenance level then eat a little less than that every week. Weight will slip off gradually and safely.

How did you find out what that level was?

Originally posted by logic1

Then you get to have fun bulking back up! It's hard to lose fat and build muscle but it can be done. It involved switching between a catabolic state and an anti-catabolic state. You won't see huge returns but you will tighten up and harden while cutting off fat.

Good training, good diet and good rest is the key.

.logic.

Cheers for the advice. Hope it also helps other members

Al.

logic1

Originally posted by Trojan
Seems like an awful lot of protein, but I read Andys post above too, so I'm probably not getting enough. How much do I need, given my training and that I weight 90kg?

A good rule of thumb is:

Light excercise/cardio: 1 gram per kilo of bodyweight

Heavy training schedule involving weights or sports specific training 1.5 - 2 grams per kilo of bodyweight

Hard core heavy lifter: 2.5 grams per kilo bodyweight.

The bodyweight you use mightn't neccessarily be your current bodyweight but rather your ideal body weight. So if u weigh 100 kilos but want to be 90 kilos then use the X grams x 90 formula.

How did you find out what that level was?

Weigh yourself then eat your normal diet for one week keeping track of everything you eat on a daily basis. 7 days later weight yourself again and see if you have gained weight, droped weight or stayed the same weight. Obviously if you increase the duration to two weeks or 3 weeks it may be a little bit more accurate but harder to count all foods for that length of time.

If you dropped weight then you're eating below your maintenance level, if you put on weight you're eating above maintenance level and if u stayed the same then you're eating at maintenance level. As you train you're maintenance level will also change so you may need to do the same measuring every one or two months or so when you're starting out.

.logic.