Article in Sunday Times by Jane Suiter..

mayhem#

Did anyone read this nonsense?
(see attachement)

E.

corkey

Seems the reporter has filled the article with quotes :mad:

MDR

anyone got an email addy for her ... the Irish Times website is most unhelpful.

pork99

Thank you for setting us straight Sunday Times

well obviously broadband is only for "whining anoraks" so nobody wants it; everyone wants Sky Digital though!!!!

listening to BBC 6 Music over ADSL at work as I type this, I would listen to it at home if I had broadband - whats wrong with that?, oh yes Rupert ain't getting his cut, of course!

MDR

Ok peeps this is back to you again,

let her know how wrong she is

Jane Suiter

seamus

Anyone who's going to email her, please be civil and comprehensible, we might get another supporter in the ranks.

2 main things that should be pointed out to her:

25% 'not going to get broadband' and 30% 'unlikely to get broadband', leaves 45% who 'are' or 'are likely' to get broadband. That's a huge figure considering internet penetration isn't much larger then 45% in many countries.

Also, Broadband penetration relies heavily on internet exposure and reliability - Ireland's poor penetration figures show that enough isn't being to done to convince people the internet is useful, let alone broadband.......

Dustaz

I would encourage everyone with a minute or two to spare to email Ms Suiter and educate her on the issues that she clearly doesnt fully understand.

The 45% who do want broadband, the fact that eircom has not hit its target because of the ludicruous price put on I-stream, the lack of FRIACO as a gateway. We all know the facts, lets share them with another journalist who can spread them further.

Please be polite, Its understandable that she might be taken in by the spin on the report and remember, A journalist armed with the facts is worth more than 100 aimless rants.

mike65

I read that and just shugged, I've given up on journos trying understanding this issue they'd sooner re-write press releases
and dodgy survey results.

Mike.

De Rebel

There is an odious whiff of rat-speak or rat-spin about this article. And I have a feeling that we well hear a lot more of this "well there are 500,000 lines and only 2,000 takers and the odtr was right all along; there is no interest in broadband and didn't jupiter call it just right and in these difficult economic times shouldn't we be making the best use of what we have and not pandering to vocal minorities........."

Somewhere there is a propaganda machine hard at work. I'd imaging that the thinking is - we have spent enough money on this nonsense, now lets stop it and keep the gold mine producing.

As well as individual e-mails to the author, I think we need a considered response that demolishes the misconceptions one by one, and sets out the real situation.

If I am right, it will be worth a bit of time putting a paper together - there are likely to be many opportunities to use it - we are already faced with counteracting the Rat's full page advertising campaign, and ESAT haven’t got going yet.

Are there 2 or 3 others who are willing to co-operate on preparing a response to this? pm me if you are interested

Lemming

time to sit down and write an email taking that article apart line by line ......

/me cracks knuckles

David C

MDR, the link above is http and so leads to a webpage..

jane.suiter@sunday-times.ie

Best of luck

PiE

Just sent mine, dealing with most of the points in the article

Hello,

I read your article in Sundays Sunday Times regarding eircom I-Stream and broadband internet access. I was sad to see that you were taken in by eircom's view that Broadband isn't wanted in Ireland.

"While millions has been spent on rolling out broadband ... Eircom has only sold DSL to less than 2000 customers despite the availability of the service in 500,000 homes and businesses."

- The reason for the low uptake of DSL is the fact that Eircom has priced it too highly. In the UK, including Northern Ireland, DSL is available for around 25-30 euros per month with NO download limit. Eircom's DSL costs 107euro per month together with a 3GB download limit and a charge for every MB thereafter. DSL is priced at around 30euro in just about every European country, aswell as in the US.

"..One problem is the lack of content to persuade many small businesses to make the investment. Simply having internet access that is "always on" is not enough of a carrot to tempt many firms and individuals"

- This is a blatant lie. It has been proven again and again the world over that internet access can be vital to a businesses dealings with its customers. Why have so many Irish businesses bought "always on" leased lines (which cost about 25,000 euro per year) from eircom if they don't need/want it? Individuals at home simply cannot afford the price eircom are asking.

The Jupiter Research's findings show that 25% would not get broadband while 30% said they were unlikely to. That's fine, but what about the other 45% who DO want broadband? Why didn't you highlight that fact?

"The cost of broadband is set to fall slightly when Esat BT delivers it's 50euro per month offer in time for Christmas"

- The service EsatBT are launching is a 256k DSL service, which is HALF the speed of Eircom's 107euro per month service. So basically, its half the speed for half the price. Big Deal.

"However the company's top-speed service will still cost 89euro per month..."

- Wrong. It will cost 89euro per month BEFORE VAT is added at 21% which brings it to about 107euro per month.

"The full rollout is likely to cost in the region of €300m and the government may be reluctant to proceed with such huge spending given that the take-up has been so disappointing"

- Again, Eircoms high retail price is the cause of the disappointing uptake and why exactly would the Government be spending 300m euro? It's eircom who would be paying to upgrade their network, not the Govt. And God knows eircoms network needs upgrading.

Sorry for the long email, but I feel you should know these things, if you don't already and I hope you can help raise awareness of Eircom's rubbish service in the future.

For more info visit www.irelandoffline.com and www.eircomtribunal.com

Regards,
PiE

I get the feeling she won't really care though

Dangger

I'm going to mail her too, and hopefully as the BBC gave us an opportunity after we contacted them, the Sunday times will do likewise.

MDR

*claps his hands with glee*

hmmm

The funny thing is the Sunday Times obviously detest the Tony O'Reilly stable, so I'd have thought they'd take every opportunity to attack one of his companies.

Make sure you point that out.

Chips Lovell

Good email PiE. The Sunday Times piece had me scratching my head though. I've never come across any business looking for more 'content' from their telco. I don't know who in Eircom was talking about this one. As for demand, as with so many other things, people ain't going to be looking for broadband until they see friends and neighbours benefitting from it. I got i-stream early this year for business purposes. At the time, eircom told me they'd be launching a lower priced residential service within a year. Perhaps they were hoping to make more money from the first batch of customers?

sceptre

The "lack of content" bit intrigues me - given that no-one but Eircom ever brings up I'm convinced the entire article was pieced together from an Eircom press release.

Just a thought.

In any case, we all know the content isue is irrelevant. How much stunning content did Eircom feel necessary to introduce the 33k Internet to us in the first place?

Lemming

Oh God ....


this email is f*cking HUGEEEE .. and I haven't even gotten half-way through the article

who wants some??

PiE

Post it, you know you want to ;]

And it might help others write theirs.

Lemming

Originally posted by PiE
Post it, you know you want to ;]

And it might help others write theirs.

Oh believe me I want to

I'll wait until the committee have had a perusal of it first though.

Stonemason

I read this last sunday and it made my blood boil what really got me was the bit about only 2000 people out of 500,000!!! firstly the reason their is only 2000 is probably due to the rediculs pricing,secondly 500,000 my arse what she means is Eircon told her that going by how many exchanges were enabled x the number of people connected to those exchanges the figure would be 500.000 what eircon probably forgot to tell her is that 498.000 people were either to far away from the exchange for ADSL to work or their phone lines were so poorly maintained by eircon that they failed the line test and finaly in these hard times its hard for people to justify the €107 pm for a connection that has a 3gb cap.

MDR

tell her, not me

Dustaz

Originally posted by MDR
tell her, not me

Take the advice stonemason

Rather than writing stuff that we already know, put it in an email and send the post to her

meglome

I've sent off my 'views' to our Ms. Suiter. This should be funny by the time everyone has replied.

mayhem#

Oh my god, what have i started?!

******GRIN*******


E.

Stonemason

Should i edit out the arse bit


PS Can anyone Either post her email or PM me it please

Tellox

jane.suiter@sunday-times.ie is her email addy, for the third time

vinnyfitz

I don't believe JS ever wrote about technology or communciations issues. Anyone with access tot the on line IT archive want to confirm this for us?

This may be a bit of a learning curve for her. Do we expect her to cover this area for the Sunday Times on an ongoing basis?

I suggest someone from the committee contacts the editor and asks will they publish a "right of reply" piece.

crawler

Hmmm......is it just me or is it strange that Mr Murdoch owns Sky & the Times - he also cant provide broadband directly himself......he is afraid that other Companies may be able to offer telco , Broadband and digital TV - not that ntl or Chorus have any cash to spend but Mr Murdoch would very very very much like to see a monopoly in his favour........if you think this is scary , it is.

Mr Murdoch will try to keep BB under wraps until he can offer it - then it will become the best thing ever and will probably come with a red button.

I personally dont like the guy but you have to admire his way of thinking.

De Rebel

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
I don't believe JS ever wrote about technology or communciations issues. Anyone with access tot the on line IT archive want to confirm this for us?

This may be a bit of a learning curve for her. Do we expect her to cover this area for the Sunday Times on an ongoing basis?

I suggest someone from the committee contacts the editor and asks will they publish a "right of reply" piece.

This article sounds like regurgitated spin. In addition to tackling it on a once off basis we need a considered paper to tackle any more outbreaks. Politicians and the media alike will be susceptible over the coming months to "well there is loads of broadband and nobody is using it". We need to shift our short term focus from Fraico/broadband availibility to broadband cost and wireless availibility.

It seems to me that IOFFL is now setting the agenda. It is most important that we do not loose momentum.

crawler

I just send a long but justified email to Ms Suiter....I'm not happy. everyone else should take 5 minutes to do the same. This kind of stuff is very damaging.....on lots of fronts.

michaelpwilson

Here's the letter I sent to Jane.


Dear Ms. Suiter,

I read with interest your article "Broadband wagon loses speed" in the Sunday Times of 10 November. It comes as a great disappointment to me that an article like this, which touches on a subject which has been of interest to me for many years, should include so many inaccuracies and downright untruths. I realise that these may not have been intended by you, but the damage that can result from promulgating erroneous facts, as put forth in your article, is considerable. Please allow me to explain my contention with some of the points you make.

You state in your article that despite broadband now being available in Ireland via Eircom ADSL, "less than 2,000 customers" have availed of it. This is partially because the service has been commercially available for less than a year. However, the pitiful number of subscribers is primarily due to Eircom's exorbitant monthly rates. You make reference to this point in your report, yet you begin it by saying that the "public has little or no interest" in broadband. I would argue that one has a direct influence over the other. Just because I cannot afford a Ferrari, that does not, by implication, mean that I would have no interest in owning one. You cannot base interest in an expensive item or service on the number of people who purchase it.

Eircom, as Ireland's incumbent operator which owns practically all of the telecommunications infrastructure in the state, is attempting to sell their broadband ADSL service at €107 per month. This price is subject to a three-gigabyte download cap, and a charge of 4c per megabyte is incurred after the cap has been reached. This rate is, without question, one of the most expensive - if not the most expensive - in the world. As an ex-user of Eircom's ADSL service, I downloaded approximately ten gigabytes per month. At current rates, this would result in a monthly bill of €445.

Compare this to BT OpenWorld ADSL, which costs approximately €47 for the same connection speed, but with no download cap. As you will have noticed, in this instance, the Eircom product costs ten times more than the BT one. All this is before you even consider connection fees and equipment costs, where again Eircom are fleecing the Irish consumer, who, for the most part, has no alternative broadband service provider. Although both Eircom and BT OpenWorld stipulate a minimum contract length of one year, I would imagine that the first year's Eircom fee of €1,667 (minimum) is a bit harder to swallow than BT's €802 (maximum).

All these points do back up the claims of your Eircom spokesman: "Simply having internet access that is "always on" is not enough of a carrot to tempt many firms and individuals" - at Eircom's prices, I couldn't have phrased it better myself. Perhaps your spokesman would care to comment on the reasons for Eircom's wholesale bitstream ADSL product being more expensive than the retail product in the UK, without using such balderdash terms as "economies of scale."

Whilst your claim that "the majority of existing European internet users are either unlikely to upgrade to broadband or do not want it at all" is mathematically correct based on the statistics you provide, with a combined percentage of 55%, this still leaves a significant proportion of the internet-using public who would be interested in the service. I must point out to you that in Ireland's case, there is no 24-hour flat-rate dial-up internet access product available. Practically all people who use the internet in Ireland from their home incur per-minute charges from their telecommunications provider. This acts as a deterrent to those wishing to use the internet from home. It is widely accepted that internet use increases dramatically in regions where a flat-rate dial-up service is available. Eircom has taken every opportunity to block the introduction of such a service. If it was introduced, I guarantee that the proportion of the public in Ireland who would be interested in acquiring broadband connections would increase. To go back to an earlier analogy: why would anyone buy a Ferrari if they can't even drive?

I would also like to point out that the €50 offering which is due from Esat BT before Christmas, whilst faster than a normal dial-up line, could hardly be described as "broadband." In the rest of the broadband-enabled world, speeds begin at 512kbps. The "reduced price" Esat BT product (which is still more expensive than BT OpenWorld's 512kbps product) will only reach speeds of 256kbps. So, for half the speed enjoyed by our counterparts in the UK, we will be paying much more than they are.

The dismal broadband connection figures that Eircom quote will remain this way until they stop spending money taking out "full-page advertisements in the press", and reduce their prices instead, as the rest of the world has been able to do but Eircom has not. Parity with the UK would be the ideal, but unfortunately, I believe this is too much to hope for.

There is a great deal of information on this topic available for your perusal on www.irelandoffline.org and www.eircomtribunal.com, and I would urge you to read some of it in advance of your next report on this issue, should there be one. It is too important a topic to be so poorly researched and so heavily biased before being published.

Yours sincerely

Michael Wilson
Dublin, Ireland

PiE

Nice letter, Michael.

De Rebel

Both Pie's response and Michael's hit the spot. Well done.

timod

Lads, I really hope you're cc'ing these to the editor...

mayhem#

Did anyone get a reply yet?

E.

spongebob

she has probably become known as

'Jane Shoot-Her'

in the techno journo world.

M

Fallschirmjager

i think it is fair to say -- yes i have counted all the votes even from Bratalasavia...and yes yes, i can confirm that everyone agrees -- yes ladies and gentlemen --- Jane is a MUPPET...


how in the name of the lord jesus can you sit down and write such ill researched, badly written and judgemental crap...and also i would suggest she goes to english class again cos it ceretainly is pretty crap english for the times...Jane reptition my dear , avoid repitition...oh oh let me see, whats that you are saying... if you repeat you dont have an article...hmmmm


dont worry i am penning a beaut to her and the editor after this...By the way the last one i wrote the the new Labour guy and labour HQ didnt even get a reply...theres a communication minister in waiting for ya...jeeze those fish stocks eh..

Lemming

Here's my response to Jane Suiter's article, which I have just emailed to her.

---

Ms Suiter,

having read your article in last weekend's Sunday-Times, titled "Broadband wagon loses speed", I became concerned that you may have used questionable sources for the data which the article draws upon and was thus moved to write to you.

I felt that the article repeated a lot of misconceptions about the state of the Internet in Ireland. I would like to tackle each of these, and outline Ireland-Offline's stance as regards same.



"There is growing evidence that the public has little or no interest in buying into the broadband future".

- Firstly, the Irish public at large is not even aware of what broadband is or can do for them. How one can be expected to have an interest in something that they know nothing about is, of course, an absolutely ludicrous stance to take. According to a poll undertaken by MRBI in August of this year, 73% of people did not know what broadband was. I'm sure that many many years ago when the television was first introduced that the public had little or no interest in buying into it either. Tapes, CDs, telephones, and cars, among other examples, also spring to mind.

- Secondly, the public has "little or no interest in buying into the broadband future" at the rates which eircom are trying to sell this service. Even to those who know little about computers or have an interest in technology, the prices are exorbitant.

The costs place eircom's offering as the most expensive in Europe by a long-shot, and the terms and conditions surrounding it make it one of the most (if not 'THE' most) restrictive DSL products to be found globally. A 12 month lock-in contract (inclusive of pricing) with a 12 month penalty for early disconnection, along with restrictions and heavy monetary penalties on service usage. These factors have ensured that only those who really want the service have elected to place an order for it. Many who have expressed an interest have adopted a 'wait and see' approach to see what competition is offered before becoming tied down for a minimum of 12 months, thus stiffling demand further.

- As an aside, I might like to point out that the particular type of DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) technology that eircom are selling was conceived for the home consumer and small business, and has been marketed, and priced, as such around the rest of the world. Ireland would seem to be a point against the grain in this respect where the incumbent operator is attempting to fob it off as a business product when in fact its (consistent) performance statistics would be far from acceptable for most companies over the category of "small business" attempting to either establish an online presence or conduct business via paperless means.



" ... Eircom has only sold broadband or digital subscriber lines (DSL) to less than 2,000 customers despite the availability of the service in 500,000 homes and businesses."

- Most of those customers on eircom's DSL service are those who availed of the free trials. Thus they have not had to pay exorbitant installation or equipment fees. Many of kept the service simply because they could not face returning to a standard 56 kb dial-up connection (via a modem and phone line) having seen how broadband transformed their perception of the internet.

- There are two major reasons why eircom have not managed to achieve any sort of significant penetration with DSL and they are as follows:

1. The costs for the service are the most expensive in the world by some three or four times.

2. Although eircom claim that the service is available to 500,000 homes, the reality is quite different when one attempts to order the service. Due to a myriad number of reasons ranging from ignorance towards the set-up of the technology to poor maintenance of the network, users will be told that it is not possible for them to have DSL installed and will then (most likely) have an attempt to sell the more expensive (and obsolete) ISDN service to them. Whilst distance from an exchange is an issue in outlying areas, most users who have the service "available" according to eircom are located in urban areas.



"New European research has also found a significantly low level of interest in most other European countries".

- This statement would seem to contradict with the British market selling in excess of 8,000 broadband (both DSL and Cable) connections per month? Germany, France, Italy, and the Scandinavian countries have similar statistics too as far as I am aware. For a detailed reference, please note the European 'DSL Scoresheet' for end June 2002 compiled by the ECTA (http://www.ectaportal.com/regulatory/dsl_jun02.html). You will find that this scoresheet shows that the opposite to the above statement is the case in most other European countries.



"Eircom has committed itself to spending ^À125m on broadband over three years and a spokesman said that despite the very low take-up it will not be scaling back that commitment".

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but a great deal of those moneys have been provided from the public purse to encourage the incumbent operator to actually provide the service in the first place (since they are concerned about it taking away from their very lucrative, and highly over-priced, 56k dial-up and
ISDN products).

- Also, I would refer you back to my argument about tapes, cds, televisions and so on. Eircom knows that people will adopt this technology as more and more people become aware of what it is and what it can do (and assuming, of course, that prices fall). Eircom know this and are only telling you something quite obvious and trying to dress it up as something they are doing out of the goodness of their hearts.



"He said one problem is the lack of content to persuade many small businesses to make the investment. Simply having internet access that is 'always on' is not enough of a carrot to tempt many firms and
individuals".

- Once more, the lack of a "killer-app(lication)" argument is brought forth. This is an excuse for lack of innovation or vision from telecommunications operators who have used this. It has been shown time and again in country after country, that if users are given the time and space, they will find their own killer product. For an example close to home, look across the water at the UK and the upsurge in internet usage after a flat-rate dial-up internet product (FRIACO) was released. According to the British telecommunications watchdog OFTEL, in 2001 dialup users spent an average of 8 hours per month online from home, friaco users spent an average of 15 hours online, whilst broadband users spent an average of 23 hours online.

- Also, the above quote shows a deep lack of understanding on eircom's part of what it is that they are actually selling. Always-on connections remove the habit of "clock watching" for fear of racking up massive telephone bills. It allows the delivery of high-bandwidth services (which are becoming more and more common) ranging from internet-radio, to films, to getting the latest software updates at a fraction of the speed that is allowed under dial-up services. Quite simply, it removes the "fear-factor" of phone bills from home users and small businesses.

- Furthermore, the cost of the service coupled with the restrictions on it (which make a mockery of what the service is capable of), along with the "unsuitability" of phone lines is causing many small businesses to turn their backs on the current DSL offerings.



"The research found that that the majority of existing European internet users are either unlikely to upgrade to broadband or do not want it all. About 25% said they would not get high-speed connections and a further 30% said they were unlikely to get one".

- That quote provides two pieces of information if one reads further between the lines, rather than taking it at face value.

1. There is 45% whom have expressed a definite interest in acquiring broadband technology. That is a rather large amount. In addition, it is also the largest group out of no/maybe/yes.

2. 30% said "unlikely", which over time can/will change as people are swayed by word of mouth or the experience of using such a product somewhere outside their own home.

- Further statistics from the MRBI survey (August 2002) stated that once the term 'broadband' was explained, 32% of people said they would be 'fairly likely' to subscribe to such a service whilst 14% of people said they would be 'very likely' to subscribe.

- According to NTL Ireland, there has been an 11% uptake on cable-internet services in areas where they have made it available.



"Ireland also comes near the bottom of the list for broadband penetration within Europe. The UK, Germany, and Italy all have penetration of 7-8%, while in Sweden the figure is 29%".

- Whilst Ireland has one of the lowest penetration rates for broadband, coupled with a low monthly online rate, we have one of the highest rates for internet purchases in the world. There is plenty of evidence to suggest latent demand for higher speed internet access in Ireland. Even ISDN has enjoyed a large upsurge in recent months, despite its extrememly high cost.




For more information, please visit Ireland-Offline (http://www.irelandoffline.org), a voluntary organisation campaigning for better and more affordable internet access in Ireland.

Information can also be found in the ODTR's (http://www.odtr.ie) consultation document entitled "Future delivery of broadband in Ireland", MRBI survey statistics for August 2002, and from the ECTA (http://www.ectaportal.com).



Regards

James Griffin

l3rian

If she knows how to use email I'll be surprised

Fallschirmjager

LOL you know you jhave a point...maybe the email is the problem good one

well i penned me rocket as well...and it was a biggie...dont care if they print but i think we can get another view off...

Dustaz

Still no replies then?

Lemming

Originally posted by Dustaz
Still no replies then?

Nope. Beginning to think that |3rian has a point about that email thing

Mr E

Excellent letter, Lemming (and Michael and PiE). I'll be VERY interested to see if there is a follow up article in next Sunday's paper.

I'm not holding my breath, though....

- Dave.

yankinlk

emailed one myself...

You shouldn’t write about broadband before researching your facts. Do yourself (and others) a favour by dropping into these websites: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=60

www.irelandoffline.org

You will find the irish public that wants/needs/bleeds for broadband voicing fact not fiction. Spend a little time reading about all the technical issues involved. Don’t just reqoute last weeks headlines and try and tie together a story out of it. It makes no sense.

yankinlk

Dustaz

Yank (and others) just a reminder that www.boards.ie/irelandoffline will bring you directly to this forum and is a lot prettier to

David C

Originally posted by timod
Lads, I really hope you're cc'ing these to the editor...

Good idea.. May lead to them featuring in the letters page

jd

Originally posted by Dustaz
Yank (and others) just a reminder that www.boards.ie/irelandoffline will bring you directly to this forum and is a lot prettier to

And she will be well impressed to see comments like
"and also i would suggest she goes to english class again cos it ceretainly is pretty crap english for the times"

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Stonemason

Not as nicely written as the ones above but i often worry if they are to long she wont read them


Dear Ms Suiter

May i suguest you go back and ask eircon out of these 500.000 so called enabled lines how many would actualy work ?.I know quite a few people who live well within in the two mile limit(from the exchange) required to get ADSL and many of them have failed the Eircon line test.I would also like to point out that just because someone is connected to an ADSL exchange many could be well over the said two mile limit.While your talking to them maybe you could ask if the fact they are charging up to three times as much for ADSL than most countrys in europe and the fact you will be charged extra for every MB you download over there three gigbyte limit if this has anything to do with the slow uptake of this new fangled technology.May i also suguest you take a look at some stats from BT (UK) as there is a clear signs that price is a very big factor in public intrest in this kind of service.May i also suguest you do not take Eircons word for anything in future as they have a tendency to stretch the truth some what.

highlight

I'm not being critical - ok well maybe I am, but please take it as constructive

I wouldn't expect a journalist - any journalist - to place weight behind a badly written misspelled email. If you want to get your point across, it's important to be articulate particularly if dealing with a newspaper.

Lecture over.