Who like's who and why?

Scarab

Ok so who prefers who and why?
Me likes protoss cause they are STRONG and they are the best starters and can develop really quick. My second choice would be terran and i dont really like the zerg at all. I reckon the guardian is the only strong unit they have. Who wants a modem dialup game then?

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 04-03-99).]

Draco

Okay - we always play 7 or 8 player maps. There are usually at least 9 resource areas. So with the usual 4 we have playing, 2 get knocked out early on and the other 2 end up with 4 recource centres.
Lets assume the 2 players left have very few troops after taking out the other 2. I start to build my 30 mutas. He aims for battlecruisers. I have 4 hatcheries, he has 3 spaceports. I can have 36 mutas in 120 time units. The terran will still be building his Battlecruisers. So I attack. He has 30 Missile turrets. But, not all can attack. So say 5 or six can reach you at any one time. You should be able to work your way along the definsive perimiter and do serious damge to it. You more than likely will lose most (if not all) your mutas. But you should be building more for a second wave.

I know it's a bit of a dodgy example, buthey, I'm a dodgy kinda guy.

And don't most gas depsits have 5000 gas in them? (or is that just the big maps?)

No they don't send siege tanks alone, but I find if you micro manage a bit you can take on those marines.

The stand and die AI is annoying - if I know there is the risk I'll try and find Templars. It doesn't always work...but hey! that's life.

[This message has been edited by Draco (edited 04-03-99).]

Scarab

Yeah the AI against psionic storm for all units in starcraft is crap, u have to move ureself which is a ***** when u have several bases and lots of units spread out.

Scarab

Draco if u were playing on a one on one map u have to have tactics to hold for the first couple of minutes, in a one on one map u are'nt even likely to get to build a spire as there will be 4 zealots in ure base within the first couple of minutes, thats about 15 zerglings.

Draco

A good poit, but I'm not fond of one on ones or small maps. Much prefer big stitch ups.

One guy I played insisted that rush attacks were cheating for some bizarre reason....

DeVore

ok, a few points:

1. You play with 4 people, ffa on 8 player maps? You're experience of resource managment will be totally skewed when it comes to playing normal maps (ie 4 player maps for 4 players)

2. If the terran goes directly for Battlecruisers, he's an idiot. He should build siege engines and a marines and a few fliers and turrets. Then he's set to wait for his battle cruisers. Sure he'll take a pounding. But he can smile to himself, knowing that he's gonna kick your head in in a few minutes.

3. Its false logic to say You more than likely will lose most (if not all) your mutas. But you should be building more for a second wave. If you give yourself extra cash for a hypothetical second wave then you have to give your opponent more cash too.
It all comes down to BANG-PER-BUCK and a certain amount of timing-of-arrival. In the scenario you outline above... if I were the terrans I would ignore battlecruisers and go for Siegetanks and Marines. You wont have enough to protect against 12 siege engines and 24 marines by the time he can have them out. Try putting one un-upgraded marine against one un-upgraded Mutalisk. Now try 2.
Its not pretty.

I dont know how much starports are but I do know that to get another "unit producing building" is 350 crystals (including dead drone) which is WAY more expensive then barracks etc. The new hatery is usually in your main base and does nothing other then produce larva. For the same price the terrans can have 2 barracks. So If you give yourself (hypothetically) 3 hatcheries, you have to give your hypothetical terran opponent 6 unit producing buildings approx. Combine this with the cheapness of marines and the speed of training and your mutas are in for a rough ride.

DeV (whose in an argumentative frame of mind today)

Scarab

Yeah if u are using zerg at that stage of the game u are going to need a sh-it load of hatcheries cause terrans have barracks , starports and factories, and a few of them at that, protoss are also going to have like 3 gateways a robotics facility and a stargate. Once u have the minerals there is no reason to have that few hatcheries.

Draco

>1. You play with 4 people, ffa on 8 player maps?
It's a hang on from when we played Red Alert and Total Annialation. We like the bigger maps 'cause the battles are a bit more dramatic.

>2. If the terran goes directly for Battlecruisers, he's an idiot.
True. But the point of my example was more on how much faster you can have the mutas up and running than BC's.

On point 3: (I can't be bothered to cut and paste) Yes, I agree, but my answer to point two applies here as well. It was not meant to be taken as a specific instance. You put 12 mutas up against 12 marines and micro manage, my money is on the mutas. Against 24 marines no, but then I'd wait until I had a few more mutas.

On the hatcheries: On the big maps I'd have one at each resource and two at my main. Each can produce 3 units simulatiously. So the 4 hateries will produce 12 mutas in 40s, the 6 barracks will build 12 marines in 48. But you have to take into account the hatcheries produce larve constantly. I don't have the figures at hand but even if each only produces one in the time the mutas are building (I think it could be 2), you can have a simple numbers advantage very quickly. So I'd say the marines are in for the tougher ride.

Draco (who is also in an argumentative frame of mind today)

Scarab

I reckon a trip out to cyberx is on the cards to show you why zerg are ****

DeVore

You put 12 mutas up against 12 marines and micro manage, my money is on the mutas. Against 24 marines no, but then I'd wait until I had a few more mutas.

ARGH!!!!
12 Mutas cost WAAAY more then 24 marines. Remeber here that Gas, not crytal is the limiting factor for just about all races.
So, start with a hypothetical 1200/1200 and build 12 mutas. Fair enough. Now compare that with what the other races can build WITH THE SAME CASH in roughly the same time.

Each can produce 3 units simulatiously. So the 4 hateries will produce 12 mutas in 40s, the 6 barracks will build 12 marines in 48.

DOUBLE ARGH!!!
This is the single most common form of dodgy logic that is trotted out to argue the merits of zerg. It's real simple to knock down tho.
A hatchery will only produce 3 creatures if you havent done *anything* with it for the previous few minutes. So, over a period of minutes they are at least as slow (and I find SLOWER) then opposing races. Hatcheries have a limit of 3 larva and hence you run the risk of lack of efficiency if you dont attend to them regularly whereas Toss and Terran can program them with 5 (6?) orders and bugger off to attack. By the time they return from their attack their next force is waiting. Zerg can build while attacking too but that requires attention from the player and with 5 hatcheries to deal with and micromanage your mutas and spitters it quickly becomes impossible even with hot keys.

The only reason I play Zerg is cos they make such cool sounds and they are the less used race round these parts. Tactically, you have to be a better player to play them and still defeat your opponent. 2 v 2 and 3 v3 they can be effective but only if your partners have effectively tied up the opponents to allow you to develop a big swarm. They'd be better off with another Tosser tho.

DeV (off out for the afternoon)

LegacyUser

Oooh bold and italics!

Good man DeV, I'd missed those.

--

---

John Breslin
Cloud Internet
http://welcome.to/cloud/
cloud@tinet.ie

Zero

I think ye could all be arguing for the night without agreeing on who's best.
I think the reason is that they are so well balanced, despite what Dev thinks about the Zerg being weak.
I myself prefer the protoss, by miles. Terran siege tanks are pussies, when it comes to a long range shot from a reaver. In an attacking terran party, they need a detector or they are fooked, but the easiest remedy to that, is scare off the science vehicle with a fleet of ships, then move in on the attackers with a lash of zealots cloaked under an arbiter. It all depends on how well you are able to use ure resources though. A good Zerg player with flatten a base with a few well placed Plagues, followed up by a sh!tload of zerglings. Once again the beautiful high templar comes in of course, nothing can stand up to that sh!t.

The photon cannons are a hell of a lot more effective than you would think. It's not that good to put a few in a line at the entrance to the base, because some of them are out of range. What I do is put 8 or 9 in a semicircle, leaning in towards the base, so that when the base is charged, the enemy is more or less in the centre by the time he gets fired on, which means a crossfire of 8 or 9 cannons at once, add a few templars to that, and dragoons behind the cannons, and nothing will get through.

As regards long range attack, the yamato gun on the battlecruiser is mental, but the thing takes all night to charge, so u need lots of cash to effect an attack using cruisers to take out defences, while for protoss, five or six reavers will punch a lovely hole in a base entrance, or even better, a swarm of carriers sent in purely to take out turrets, then follow them up with 12 cloaked dark templars, jah, take it base.

Jay is class with Terran though, his siege tanks are dangerous, although he does do the dog on it, like 18 or 20 of the blasted things protecting a base.

like i said, its in the eye of the beholder, but I think protoss rock.

Draco

On the 12 muta's vs. 12 marines.....I can see where you coming from but my point is who will win in a stand up fight.

Okay, you can program the barrack and so on to produce 5 troops, but the point is while a barracks builds one at a time, the hatchery in theory can build 3 at once. Yes they have to be left alone for alittle while to get 3 larvae, but (I can do bold too pfthsst!) how often have you had to go off and do stuff, come back and there are 3 larvae waiting for your attention. As for having to go around to hatcheries, I delevop a pattern that I end up going though all by hatcheries quite quickly. And, usually, there will be at least one place with 2 hatcheries close enough to be on the same screen. I don't see them being any slower than the other races. Maybe the logic is a bit dodgy, but you're also assuming that the Terran/Tosser players have the resources to be able to stack build 5 units at all their barracks etc.

Scarab - definitly come down - we'll be having a lockin over Easter and we'd like to have a few new players in to give us a look at others tatics.

Zero The problem with photon towers in a semi cirile is some one starts at one end and works their way around, but it is still the most effictive use. 18 - 20 seige tanks is an extremly scary sight....but so is 10 Archons or 10 carriers....

Dr_Teeth

En Taro Adun!

I might as well get me spake in, not like this bug is particularily interesting..

1. Draco - you haven't been facing good opposition on realistic maps, you should try different scenarios with your mates, and on terran defense, tell your friend use Goliath's instead of towers - they can move to nullify a Mutie swarm's advantage at any one point, and have greater firepower.

2. Never ever ever ever build a Battlecruiser fleet without FULLY upgrading both armour and weapons, upgraded BCs are FAR more effective in most cases. A few units (like Muties, I'm not sure exactly) take 3 shots to kill with an un-upgraded BC, and only 2 shots to kill with an upgraded one - this makes an immense difference in large battles between BCs verses Muties.

3. Spawn Broodling is an easy way to break a serious terran ground defense. A few Queens can kill all the Siege Tanks at a choke point in a matter of seconds, without endangering themselves - VERY handy. After that, just rush in with a whole bunch of Hydras/Zerglings - the bunkers won't stand for long. In my experience once you get past the outer shell of Terran defense, the interior is weak - supply depots and other buildings take up so much room that their bases are alway few spread out, and easily wrecked when their row of turrets or sieged-up choke point is breached.

4. Dev - Protoss don't get lock-down, that's a terran ability.

5. Psi-storm is the protoss's saving graces, without it they'd be in SERIOUS trouble. Against a massed Zerg attack Protoss have:

Photon cannon - no good
Zealots - no good when zerglings keep 'em busy whilst hydras spit in, also no good against flyers
Reavers - cool against ground targets, but easily swamped, and no good against air
Dragoons - can't hold their own against zerg AT ALL.
Scouts - pricey, take an age to build, no good against ground targets.
Carriers - seriously pricey, take an eternity to build, need a lot of support or they get scourged to death.
Templars - no attack, very weak, but if they can Psi Storm effectively, then the battle belongs to the Protoss! I never make 'em to turn them into Archons, prefering to merge when they run out of energy.

Protoss units have many more obvious faults than Zerg ones - zerg units are much more general-purpose, and though it's annoying that their defenses are land/air specific at least very few of their units are.

Without Psi Storm the Protoss couldn't handle the 40 Mutie attack at all, or if they did manange to beat them off, they'd NEVER survive the attack that followed - it takes soooo long to build up! Long live Psi!

Teeth.

LoLth

How about setting the photons in a diamond pattern?

a quick bit of art:

____________________________

---

x

---

---

x---x

---

---

x--o--x

---

---

x---x

---

____________x________________

where ___ = walls (or natural barrier)
x = photon cannon
o = pylon
- = just a filler because I screwed up!

you can back the photon cannons behind the pylon (on the right) with the overlap of other pylons. And if you arrange it right, the right hand cannons can reach near to the furthest left photon. Anything attacking will be in range of at least one (maybe three) other cannons. The shape leaves no 'weak point' except the pylon but that will always be the same. Other soldiers, either in front of or inside the diamond will be a big bonus too.

Better yet, build two such diamonds one on top of the other (as in up the map a bit) if the pass is wide enough. double up the top row of the top diamond and the bottom row of the bottom diamond to give added protection.

Of course there are lots of different defensive shapes, but htis one sprung to mind when Draco said about the ' coming in from one end'. That was why the defensive square was always preferred to the horseshoe, unless you could be sure that the enemy would come down the centre (either by being herded or by his pattern of play so far).

By the way, the two diamond arrangement: flatten the diamonds out a bit (left to right) to increase the mutual coverage.

another .25 Euros from me! I'll be broke soon!



J.

[This message has been edited by LoLth (edited 04-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by LoLth (edited 04-03-99).]

DeVore

Dr Teeth:

Spawn Broodling is an easy way to break a serious terran ground defense. A few Queens can kill all the Siege Tanks at a choke point in a matter of seconds, without endangering themselves.

Obviously you went to the Draco school of dodgy logic. If I take ANY unit in the game and put it on its own and then allow any enemy race ITS CHOICE of unit to face it (without regard to cost either it would appear, queen+brrodling != a few tanks) then it always going to be a cakewalk.

Oh terrans get lockdown, yah I forgot, you get something equally nasty tho. freezes my poor zergies.

Photon cannon - no good - actually they are excellent in clusters, and not too pricey either.

Zealots - no good when zerglings keep 'em busy whilst hydras spit in, also no good against flyers - Equal cost of troops? The Zealots will EAT the lings and then the spitters for lunch with a nice Chianti.

Reavers - cool against ground targets, but easily swamped, and no good against air - Not swamped when you have a ton of Zealots.

Dragoons - can't hold their own against zerg AT ALL. -This is just not true. Goons are the strongest single unit in the game apart from Zerg spitters (which are good I'll admit)

Carriers - seriously pricey, take an eternity to build, need a lot of support or they get
scourged to death. - They are excellent as they confuse the **** out of my Zergie AI who shoot at the little fliers and not the many carrier.

As for most Zerg units being able to target ground and air, I only see 2 really. Spitters and Muties. The rest are ground or air only.
Muties rate and range of attack is so poor that even unless they are upgraded to the maximum they are just expensive cannonfodder.

The fact is that Zerg have no big heavy hitters so the end game is extremely difficult for them, when the damage per blow gets to be huge and area affect comes into play bigtime.

DeV.

regi

Swiss, Edam, Rochester, Brie, Cheddar, Michelstown, Stilton, Camembert, Babybel, Roquefort and Wensleydale - you all gonna get cheesed.

Dr_Teeth

Obviously you went to the Draco school of dodgy logic. If I take ANY unit in the game and put it on its own and then allow any enemy race ITS CHOICE of unit to face it (without regard to cost either it would appear, queen+brrodling != a few tanks) then
it always going to be a cakewalk.

Pardon? Choice seldom comes into it in a game. If you take a standard terran defense of a choke point: 3 bunkers with marines (or a marine/firebat mix) backed by 3-4 siege tanks with cover from 4 towers and maybe a goliath or two, what are you going to do?

You could:

(a Send in ****loads of hydras etc etc until eventually the position is over-run.

- This is a waste of time and resources. It will eventually work, but the cost is too high, a Terran can reinforce with airpower too fast.

(b Spend a serious amount of time and money on getting a bunch of guardians together with mutie escort.

- And hope to christ his cloaked-Wraith squadron doesn't wax your token Overload and kill every last one of them

(c Spend time/money on bringing units like Defilers or Ultralisks into play.

- By which time the mid-game has past.

(d Zoom in with loads of Muties and hope for the best.

- Most people take this option, it works well, but it there are cloaked wraiths, or numerous goliaths, or BCs involved, it ain't pretty.

(e Broodling the tanks and go in with ground units which overcome the bunkers in no time.

- Fast, it works, the Queen's aren't harmed, the job is done on a budget, yes, even Zergs have to watch their minerals.

Bear in mind that this situation will rarely occur in the perfect end-game scenario where unit loses are not a problem.

Most times you need to get past that chokepoint in a hurry, only *then* can you start causing serious damage to an expansion. A terran will fortify with cloaked wraiths and BCs if your attack takes to long to succeed.

Anyways, Broodling's cool, I think.

Photon cannon - no good - actually they are excellent in clusters, and not too pricey either.

I always stick up a good few, but they take AGES to replace, and put the protoss into a defensive frame-of-mind, which is bad. It is often difficult to get sufficient numbers together to stop an attack, especially when you've got pylon placement to worry about.

Zealots - no good when zerglings keep 'em busy whilst hydras spit in, also no good against flyers - Equal cost of troops? The Zealots will EAT the lings and then the
spitters for lunch with a nice Chianti.

Actually, you'd be surprised how effective a line of Hydras can be against Zealots that are fighting a bunch of Zerglings. Zealots have daft AI when left on their own, and any attempt to redirect them means they take even more free hits from the lings.

Reavers - cool against ground targets, but easily swamped, and no good against air -
Not swamped when you have a ton of Zealots.

The only way the Protoss can hold a choke-point. It works quite well, but not when silly numbers of zerg are involved.

Dragoons - can't hold their own against zerg AT ALL. -This is just not true. Goons are the strongest single unit in the game apart from Zerg spitters (which are good I'll admit)

You think so? I've always found them terrible to maneveour, and at a serious dis-advantage when a melee attacker gets in close.

Carriers - seriously pricey, take an eternity to build, need a lot of support or they get scourged to death. - They are excellent as they confuse the **** out of my Zergie AI who shoot at the little fliers and not the many carrier.

Umm. Double-click on pack of Hyras. Right-click on Carrier. Carrier go boom, rather damn quickly. They take too long to build, REQUIRE serious research (I need to get air attacks up to 3 before I build a single one, or it's a waste of time).

As for most Zerg units being able to target ground and air, I only see 2 really. Spitters and Muties. The rest are ground or air only.

And which units make up like 70% of most Zerg armies? With just those to units you can do things that the Protoss need 4-5 different, independantly researched, separatly built units with (maddeningly) different build and movement speeds. Protoss ain't easy by any means. I reckon they are the most challenging to play. Zerg units are Solid. You throw so many in, you get a result. With Protoss units, you're never ever sure of anything.

Teeth.

Draco

Draco school of dodgy logic

My logic isn't dodgy, it's just coming from a different view point. Well, it is a little dodgy some times...

But anyway...
Teeth A Goliath/Tower mix is better that just Goliaths 'cause of dectect of the towers. But Goliaths have been over looked...must check them out. While the queen can easily take out the Seige Tanks, against the player I regularly play against you'd need 7 or 8 queens to punch a big enough hole. And I rather get muta's or upgrades instead

DeV While we're taking instances of x unit against y, and you're saying it is unrealistic, I say we are looking at what you should use x against. If I have a choice I will send muta against a mix of marines/seige tanks. I do this 'cause when I weigh it up, it is more effective than, say a load of hydras who get chewed up.

As for Queen+Broodling != a few tanks, they both cost the same to build, I'm not sure how much the upgrade for broodling or siege mode is, but if a queen takes out a tank and it doesn't get killed in the process, it's a good deal.

The Protoss lock down is Statis which is horible 'cause it affects multiple targets. When you're being attacked by carriers, you have to micro manage or you will die horribly.

Off the top of my head the only other Zerg that can attack air units is the Defiler with it's plague ablity.

The Protoss are soooo slow at building up and their unit cost so much to control - even the Zealot costs 2 supply. But once they get going....~splat~

Draco (how far can I wind up DeV before he explodes? )

DeViant

On the Subject of the standard of Draco's opposition, I Think you would all be in fer a shock. The guys in cyberx micromanage most battles, so if you dont pay attention to _EVERY_ little skirmish you end up dead rather fast.

Who's the Best Race???
I Like Zerg for Cheap, fast attacks. If you dont win atleast half your battles with zerg in the early moments of the game your not playing them like your supposed to.
Get building dem der zerglings and stop over a base a few miniutes in.Thats what their their for.They aint called the Zerg swarm for fun Ya know.
Most of the Guys in Blizzard who I met preferred to play Zerg or Protoss they think terran are too slow.
Just as a side note, You know those Wierd zerg sounds??
Well Thats the sound of the head Project Managers stomach after a feed of Pizza and Coke, mixed with some other wierd sounds.
Just a little bit o' trivia!

LoLth

Draco!

Are you posting as DeViant??? I mean, why would anyone, in their right mind, ever, ever support you?

And unless that cyberX = micromanage comment was an insult, I don't trust this alter ego of your!

Draco

No it is not me. DeViant = Baz

Bunny

aaah Dev, like we said before, just watch Reaper playing with Zerg....their defense is their attack

DeVore

Yes, I must watch reaper play (we played before and we had a similar style except that I was a little faster busting up those inc lads )

The Zerg change radically from Version 1.0 to version 1.4
In the latter version they got raped and pretty much every alteration except overlord speed was a downgrade.

Version 1.0 Zerg rule and are a fair match for the others. But now they upgraded the others and downgraded Zerg radically.
Larva spawn VERY slowly so rushes are pretty much out as you need a second hatchery to do them effectively and that takes too long and costs 350.

Scarab is using 1.0 as I suspect are many others. 1.4 sucks for Zerg and everyone on the net says so. Just look at the readme for it.

DeV.

LoLth

Dev, I think you are over reacting to the patch (or at least being swayed by those on the net).

Yes, there were a ot of slow downs for the Zerg, but also increased abilities (I don't have the readme in front of me but I'll post again with references)

Also, the Terrans benefitted, but nowhere near enough to make them truly equal, their strength is still their ability to adjust, or rather their averageness, which is also a weakness.

The Protoss benefitted, but not as much as Protoss players would have liked, rumours persisted that photon cannons would be a force to be reckoned with, they stayed pretty much the same (faster build time I think).

All races benefitted and lost. The zerg were not nearly as damaged as everyone expected them to be. And I would say that I still think the zerg are the most persistently powerful sides in the game. They reach a plateau yes, but they reach it quickly. And in a melee, that can make all the difference.


J.

Dr_Teeth

I like the Protoss's style also, but they have a lot of weaknesses in certain places - like trying to take on well dug-in Terrans. Zealots are just such stonking units though.

Zerg are a laugh to play, if they're given a chance to get off the ground. In the late game though, unless they have serious resources, they have real problems against the other two races..

Does anyone know what is the favoured race amongst the serious players in the PGL? Those guys really take this game to an art-form.

Teeth.

Scarab

I hear its the Zerg, dunno why, maybe its cause they can attack and then rebuild really quick after. All the same one reaver will take out about 10 zerglings in one shot..

Draco

I'm a Zerg man myself. Muta's are so cool - same damage air and ground and they hit 3 targets at once. Very few bases can stand up to 30-40 Muta's converging on it. The Defilers plague abilty is devestating

Protoss would be next - Abitors and carriers...yummmy - but photon towers are cack. Archons are scary (ever have 10 come into a base?) Scouts are overpriced. I would disagree with the quick start up. Early in the game thay can be quite weak - but once they get the recources together you can pop up a base very quickly with a single probe.

Terran would be last, but not by much. Defense wise, they devestate land attack, bunkers+seige tanks = lots of dead enemy units. But missile towers are crap except for in large amounts. Wraiths ground attack is too weak. I their defense, ever been attacked by 16 battle cruisers?

Draco

I heard it was more the Protoss 'cause of Physic Storm and the Reaver drop.

The Zerg are great for rebuilding armies - I've literally lost 150 units of control and within 2-3 minutes I'd be back up to full.

Multiple hatcheries are the best.

DeVore

I play Zerg. But they have been butchered now to the point where they are only good against players who dont know what to do.

I have long argued that Zerg are too weak but everyone here says otherwise.
Here, are a few points.

Zerg defenses are Air OR ground. Everyone elses turret thingies are both (bunkers and photon cannons)

Both other races can cloak big (ish) units.
Zerg can only burrow, meaning they cant attack or move (but are spotted the same way as cloaked units, and if they are spotted they have to unburrow to run away...takes too long if its a templar attacking them.)

Spells are ****E for zerg. Queens are a joke as "spawn broodling" cost a ton to develop and you get one per queen pretty much (unless your queen stays around for 5 mins to regen)

Compare spells. Templars area attack is leathal. They also get lockdown and recall etc. Terrans get nukes. Zerg get Dark Swarm (tricky to use and since you mostly have fliers and spitters its WORSE for zerg then their opponent.) and Plague. Plague takes ages to get the unit to 1 health and you still have to go and kill the ****er. If I got hit by plague I'd just run home and heal the guy up. They would have to come to your base to kill him. Its a good spell but its not on the same level as Templars Psychic Storm, or anywhere near it.

The zerg are supposed to be great starters but since they decreased the larva time they are just as slow as other races and produces troops of less quality.
The most annoying thing about the zerg start is the drones. Terrans can instruct a drone to build one building and then another and then another. Protoss can do this all at ONCE! Meanwhile the zerg drones DIES to create the building. At the start this is a terrible handicap as you have to balance using your larva to create troops or buildings (basically larva->drone->building).
Plus it adds 50 to the cost of any building and adds to the time to build it (since you have to wait for a drone, or else take one off your crystal line , not a good idea)

Units are not balanced either.
Zerg are strong(ish) mid game and its the only chance they have to win really. From the point where you get spitters to the point when templars and battlecruisers come out is the one shot you have. Siege engines and templars can rip thru zerg if you dont pay a LOT of attention to them. The zerg have no single unit that can do that much damage and before you all shout that you are supposed to swarm, remember that we all start with the same resources so if I can build 12 spitters terrans can build 6 siege tanks with the same cash. 6 siege tanks will destroy 12 spitters unless the zerg player is a lot smarter then the terran player.

Battlecruisers spell pretty much the end for Zerg. A few of them together and just about nothing we have will stop them. One battlecruiser costs about the same as 3 zerg fliers (300/300??, maybe 4) and again they will get munched. Everyone agrees that Zerg have to be aggressive at the start of the game and as the game goes on they are less likely to win, but some idiot in head office decided to balance the start of the game to stop zerg rushes. I just wish they would now balance the end game to give us a chance when the stakes are higher.

Before you shout "Why dont you play some other race". I would but I cant stand the thought of being another moronic, brainless Toss player, or a cheese-generating look-how-much-damage-I-can-do-in-one-click Terran. But dont tell me the races are even. Just take a look at the distribution of the races.

Oh and Broodwars just made it worse
I dunno, I give up.

DeV.

LoLth

I haven't played that much, (but I did pick up a copy of it Yesterday - or the day before) and Brood wars is on the cards for next month. ( Draco, I decided against Baldur's gate, I hardly get time to play thief let alone starting another one!).

Anyway I have to say that my instant liking has been for the Terrans! Yaaaaay!

I love the lifty offy buildings (right lads these neighbours are cack and they eat like pigs, I'm off to visit the Zerg for a while. Anyone know of a good halting site?).

The Goliath is a nice (and smart!) unit, and wraith/battlecruiser attacks can be lethal. Take out the overlord/observer with the cruiser and the wraiths can have a bit of fun.

The base defense is pretty easy to set up and can quickly become a fortress.

The marines are cheap and cheerful (though a bit crap)

The spider mines are classic!

I still don't know enough about the other races to make definite comparisons but from what I've played the Terrans have the best 'feel'.

just my .25 Euros

DeVore

Draco, 30 fliers is 3000/3000
Firstly thats two entire gas depots (usually).
Secondly with that gas and money the Terrans can have about 10 or more battlecruisers or more then 30 turrets.
Bye bye Mutalisks.

Thirdly if your enemy allows you to control so much of the map that you can throw 3000/3000 resources into a single attack then he's lost already. But I think you are playing with muppets to be honest as decent players will never let zerg build unchecked like that (or any other race for that matter).

DeV.

Draco

In defense of the Zerg spells, Plague is great against Terran buildings (esp. if you get a sneak attack) Watch those builds burn!

I have everyone I play so terrified of infest comand centre allies they kill command centres they think will be infested. I agree with the broodling abilty - it is crap. I only ever used it in the single player campagin.

I was dead set against the 1.04 patch until I played it. I makes the Zerg defenses much better much more powerful and since any good player will have defenses against rushes the inital slow down doesn't really affect.

The drone dying is crap, but c'est la vie...

Yes the other races have cloaking, but you're stupid and niave not to have a few overlords following your troops. I've had 6 hydra take out 2 full carriers that were cloaked. The overloads (esp. once they've the speed upgrade) can usually get to when you suspect/know cloaked units are knocking around.

I keep bring out the Mutas, but they are deadly. The othere race's basic air units have different air/ground damage. The muta's don't which is a big advantage. Their weapon hitting 3 targets is devestating when there are more than 6 mutas. Seige tanks? Pah. Knock 'em out with mutas. Pysic storm is a problem, but Zerg troops are there to be thrown away.

I don't like playing the other races more because of lack of familiarity than anything else. But when I do, I play my Zerg tatics with them as well. I am owned heart and soul by the Overmind.

Scarab

Well its half a vepene gas geyser and 2 mineral thingys, and u can have much stronger units with that money. Think about the amount of templars u can get for that, 30 fliers die in about 10 seconds, also one protoss scout will take out about 3 zerg fliers, even tho scouts are totally overpriced. Marines will also maul mutalisks, especially in bunkers. The second and third shots that the mutalisk hits only takes off one damage.

DeVore

Draco write
>Seige tanks? Pah.
>Knock 'em out with mutas.

You really must be playing with muppets if they send their seige tanks out alone. Usually regi (cheese-boy) send them with an escort of 12-24 marines, which cut through Mutalisks.

>Pysic storm is a problem, but Zerg troops >are there to be thrown away.

Um I cant afford to lose 1200/1200 when a group of Mutalisks get ravaged by PS. The most annoying thing is the AI for Zerg. They just stand there and die. They make no attempt to move out of the area of effect. Which means unless you are super quick in selecting them and micromanaging your troops they'll be dead in 4-5 secs.

Overlords are way to slow, even with the upgrade and the first thing that everyone shoots if they see it. Your troops are limited to the speed of those oh-so-nippy OLs.

Dont be fooled by mutas, their second and third attacks are extremely weak and will have pretty much NO effect on units with upgraded armour (as the armour will absorb the 1 point attack).

DeV.

Koopa

i play protoss, cos i like the sounds (also cos nicky/ronan play them , and i can nick tactics off them..)

anyway, protoss are NOT slow at building bases.. someone said earlier they were..
protoss are actually the fastest for getting in a good first attack..
also, they are the best for building expansions... last time i was playing dev in ranelagh, i had 3 expansions in the time it took him to build errm none, cos hes zerg and i was protoss.. (i think it was version 1.0 as well)
i actually agree with Dev, that zerg are crippled too much. sure even the guys in france couldnt really handle zerg, the only bloke who played zerg against us there just built a sh!tload of spitters, and won cos he was using a quad timer.. or something

Teeth, yeah a load of hydra's can be extremely good against a load of zealots, but only when the hydra's are defending cos they form a line.. if the zerg player is attacking, the zealots will eat the hydras alive..

Terrans are actually pretty damn good too, they are extremely annoying in their defensive positions.. you lose about 4 zealots just fighting his stupid little probes, cos the stupid little ****ers fight back like mad with their cattle prods, 4 zealots.. thats how many have to actually survive his marines..like most of your invading force at the start of the game..

regi

Roight Tom, we're gonna get our lan together again, and we're going to play muchos starcraft soon. Medic!!

Dan

PS Aren't Medics absolutely incredibly wonderful... especially when you're playing in teams.

Koopa

yes, medics know too much..

regi

And the way they come apart when they die - that'll hurt in the morning...

DeVore

Lolth: you say "Yes, there were a lot of slow downs for the Zerg, but also increased abilities (I don't have the readme in front of me but I'll post again with references)"

I've posted the patch.txt in another thread.
I think you'll agree when you read it that the zerg pretty much got ****ed and it was christmas for Terran and Toss.

Just count the number of meaningful upgrades to the races.

Also, nicky is always telling me that Zerg shouldnt turtle they should be attacking relentlessly. Which I agree with and which means that our sunken colony upgrades are really rather worthless. So we got slightly faster overlords (*IF* we upgrade them which really is manditory).

I still like playing Zerg but I cant see any logic behind the current belief that they are the strongest. They are in my opinion the most difficult race to play and the weakest.

DeV

Creeper

Dev, when you saw me playing at the INC lan thingy it was about my second game. I've been playing on Battle.net since. And you HAVE to use the 1.04 patch to play on battle.net. Out of 50 games I have only ever lost ONE game to the terrans, and in my opinion they are ABYSMALLY ****E. This may have changed in Broodwars, haven't played that on the net yet. I've seen psycho Protoss tactics, and I've seen Zerg players who make me feel like I'm stuck in treacle. You have no idea. But Zerg RULE. You just have to be fast and smart, and all over your ****ing opponent. People don't think well when they're gettin the ****e kicked out of them. And they also can't attack you. Lessons learned from playing C&C vs 3 opponents and winning. Take it. Oh and btw, I only play Starcraft one on one really so my tactics would have no chance in big games. Oh well...

Koopa

wah
where'd you go after that game.. wanted to play someone easier(neeih bunnorsch).

funniest bit was you chasing 3 of my probes around that vespene geyser thingy, while a cppl of zealots were trying to catch up with you and attack you...(make probes go in circles..om nyom)

Those sunken colony jobs are total bastids, and the ****ing cheek of having that overlord parked outside my base for ages....nngh

DeVore

You have no idea. But Zerg RULE.You just have to be fast and smart, and all over your ****ing opponent.

Well thats a logically sound, well-thought-out argument
I DO like Zerg its just that you have to be "faster" and "smarter" with them becuase of their limitations. And dont give me that baloney about Zerg swarming, if you have enough money buy tons of zerg your hypothetical opponent could have a ton of stuff. Give me a few bunkers and some battle cruisers and wraiths I'll pop your defilers and your lings havent a chance.
Did anyone notice that Marines take LESS time to build then ANY zerg unit except a peon?

The real question is not whether you are a good zerg player Pete, its whether you would have an *easier* time playing Protoss.

BTW if you are about I'll give you a game on B.N sometime.

DeVore.

Creeper

Sorry to reopen this post but....

Yeah you're right Tom, what I said wasn't about being good with Zerg, it's about being GOOD.
My hypothetical opponents will NOT have more resources than me. Because I swarm the map, scarf everything and swarm him. Taking the resources and individual battles are where the skill comes in, naturally this applies to everyone, however...
I find the Zerg tunnelling ability the most useful thing in the game. I bury squads of 12 Zerglings everywhere.....
The funniest is watching a horde of marines, followed by Siege Tanks roll out of their base to attack. Suddenly, Zerglings everywhere, chomp chomp chomp, bye bye tanks, scut back into ground.
Take it fat pink fleshy things.