Would you wear a Poppy?

PH01

Today is November 11th or Armistice Day, the day when the WWI ended. Today many countries remember their dead who fought in that war and in subsequent conflicts.
Here in Ireland this day passes without much ceremony. For it is a day on which the people of the Republic would rather forget than remember.
So shouldn't we wear the poppy as a mark of respect and remembrance of the 50,000 Irishmen who died in the First World War, or should we just try to forget our past when Irishmen fought for the British Army?

Typedef

Yes.

My family fought in the first and second wars and if it was not for people like them who were preparied to fight to defend Ireland, certainly the Nazis would have invaded and subjegated Ireland, in the event the United Kingdom had lost the Battle of Britain.

Dustaz

I have one here. Ignore the bigots calling on people not to wear poppys.

Theres an interesting documentary on tommorow on RTE1 about irish people in the british army*. Its interesting that a lot of the returning soldiers from the second world war were treated with apathy here because of the neutrality issue.

We cannot allow those who died be forgotten. We have an arch on stephens green to commemorate irishmen who died in action in the british army pre-1912 for gods sake, yet outside of the gardens on parnell square, theres not much for those since then.




*[pimp] True Lives - All The Queens Men, RTE 1 10.20[/pimp].

WhiteWashMan

shame that so many people would rather not because its to british or something silly like that.
its about remembering those who died, not thier nationality.

aine

could we not initiate our own way to remember Irishmen who died during the world wars? that would keep both sides happy...those who wnat to remember those who died during the wars and those who would prefer Ireland not to identify itself through a British tradition!

bertiebowl

I would be proud to wear a poppy in memory of the Irish and British who died to defend us.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by aine
could we not initiate our own way to remember Irishmen who died during the world wars? that would keep both sides happy...those who wnat to remember those who died during the wars and those who would prefer Ireland not to identify itself through a British tradition!

i dont think its a case of keeping sides happy.
im sure the english dont give a toss about whether the irish as a people wear a poppy or not.
it is just a tradition born from a respect to those who died during war time.

why do the irish constantly go out of their way to not associate themselves with the english?
jesus, get over it already.....

Typedef

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

why do the irish constantly go out of their way to not associate themselves with the english?

I think a big part of it, is that for many Irish people, what it means to be Irish, is whatever the English are not, probably because so much of what gets branded as 'traditional Irish culture' was seen to be subsumed by English culture.

Yes I will admit there is a big English influence on Ireland, but the same is true of Irish influence on British, North American, New Zeland and Australian culture, due the the large ex pat and progeny of Irish ex pats living in the UK, Canada, New Zeland, Australia and the US.

Who cares how this Republic remembers the Irish men who fought in the two great European wars at the end of the day, so long as those guys get remembered?

If the Irish State finds the wearing of Red Poppies distasteful, then fine, it should find some other way to remember the Irish men who fought and in some cases died for what they thought was right.

It's not simply a question of Nationalism, lots of the men who fought in the Great War, did so because they wanted to protect the soveringty of small Nations like Belgium or because they thought that fighting with the British was going to expadite Home Rule for Ireland or thought that it was their duty to choose sides and take a stand. Whilst I may not agree with the political motives of some of the men who fought, I think that Ireland as a State should recognise the sacrifice those men made, much more then it currently does.

As an Irish nationalist I have no difficulty in recognising Irish participation in the Great War. So what, Ireland fought with Britain, the reality is that whatever your feelings for Anglo-Irish relations, the Irish men who fought for their beliefs should be recognised and honoured much more then they are, that sentiment is not akin to sedition as far as I am concerned, rather the exact opposite, it is blinkered skewed nationalism, nearly sedition to simply only recognise the 1916 rebels and forget about the hundreds of thousands of Irish men who fought in the Great War and the many men from Ireland that joined the British Army to fight in the Second War.

At the end of the day, these men are as much Irish freedom fighters as DeValera or Collins ever were, perhaps not pallatable to the offical State history of Green anti-British glory in perpetuity, but in my view freedom fighters at a European and even Global level, totally seperate to Anglo-Irish relations.

€0.10

Yes I would and was delighted to see them for sale on Nassau street last week.
Thats out of respect for the 100's of thousands of Irish people who fought in the first and second world wars to keep facism and imperialism at bay.
mm

PH01

Armistice Day used to a big event in the Republic in the 1920 and early 30's. But these events were usually disrupted by Sinn Fein, and others, at the time and so people stopped going to them. And thus these events died out.

What Aine is saying is pretty close to the main point of this issue. And that the Irish have a problem with remembering. And not only the men who died in British uniforms, but also the men and women of Easter 1916, and the Civil War dead.
If you commemorate the Irish dead of WWI you're branded as being pro-British. And if you commemorate Easter 1916 you're see as being pro-IRA. And then as far as commemorating the Civil war, well, we just do that as it is much too painful.
This is why we may have to look for something that satisfies both sides

Kix

Yes,

I would love to wear a poppy and so would my partner. Unfortunately it seems very hard to get your hands on them outside of Dublin in this country.

My mother's uncle, the man after whom I was named, died in 1945, aged only 25. He was in a Japanese prisoner of war camp by the River Quai and was days from release. An Irishman from Longford serving with the RAF. *

That's more than reason enough for me.

K

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by PH01


What Aine is saying is pretty close to the main point of this issue. And that the Irish have a problem with remembering. And not only the men who died in British uniforms, but also the men and women of Easter 1916, and the Civil War dead.

no, actually, i think she just mentioned that she thought that the irish would prefer not to be remembered through british traditions.

i just feel that it doesnt really matter what side or nationality you are from, its a rememberence of the dead.
the dead dont care about nationality, at least, none of them have mentioned it to me recently.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I personally wouldnt wear one, but I dont oppose the wearing of them- by anyone- be they Irish or any other nationality.

In recent years, the idea of the Irish fighting for British Forces has been the want to defend the sovereign rights of Small Nations (ie. Belgium in this case) but I dont give much credence to that myself personally- but thats what happens when Wartime Propaganda machines start rolling. I think it was more a matter of personal conviction, a descison of which I have much respect for.

The Corinthian

AFAIR, money raised by the sale of poppies goes to the families of British servicemen, so I'd personally have no objection to that.

Regardless of nationality, it would reflect honourably upon any of us to show respect for the common soldier who fought for their nation in any war and on any side.

tHE vAGGABOND

a huge amount of Irish men fought in WW1 as we were promised home rule after the war if we took part. We all know of course things did not happen like that. But the fact stands a lot of irish men died on the horrible battlefields in europe (for very little firkin reason really if you ask me)

So I bought a poppy, but did not wear it. A good comprimise in my silly mind

regi

Regardless of your political views, I feel remembering the war dead is a decent and worthy thing to do. The majority of them fought because they thought it was the right thing to do. I can't argue with that.

On another note, I helped the British Legion by selling poppies in Dublin while I was still in college, and I was amazed at the number of people who bought one. They were really rather popular. In particular, older people bought them, and quite a few said that they were glad that they were on sale.

The only abuse I received was from young people, aged around 15-25 - I guess it was just a kneejerk response.

If I get the time in the future, I'll sell them again.

(hmm, admitting that I sold poppies for the british legion might give some credence to the claim that boards.ie is being run by a clique of pro-brits )

Victor

I **am** wearing a poppy. (will post a story later)

spongebob

wouldnt wear one meself

wouldnt say boo to anyone who chose to wear one, thats their business

anyone know who sells the white poppies in ireland ?

M

Shinji

I'd wear one, and have done in the past. It's not a political statement; I simply believe that the money raised goes to good causes, in general.

Biffa Bacon

I wouldn't wear a poppy as it's clearly a British symbol. I don't think it's appropriate for an Irishperson to wear one, simply because it's primarily in remembrance of the war dead of a foreign nation. No disrespect to those who served though. My grand-uncle fought at Monte Cassino fair play to him.

mike65

I would'nt wear a poppie simply as I don't wear any kind of
"marker" I know what I think, would say so but don't feel the need to wear what I think or say. Unless someone was activly trying to stop me wear one of course.

Mike.

sceptre

I'd agree with Mike - wearing symbols isn't really my thing, be they poppies, lilies, red ribbons or polkadot snails.

I couldn't go home with a poppy on though, as I'd probably be clobbered. I suppose a lily (French symbol) would be a nice compromise.

I still voted "yes" though, give that the question is more asking would people wear or not wear a poppy on principle more than anything else. I'm against war but think that people who died in them should be remembered as, in this case effectively, victims of imperial expansionist governments

Kappar

Would you wear an Easter Lilly?

Meh

Originally posted by Kappar
Would you wear an Easter Lilly?

No, because I would associate the Easter lily exclusively with militant republicans, who I do not support . There's no such association between the poppy and militant loyalism -- the UVF don't sell poppies to fund their "activities".

Good question though...

Clover

no , i myself would not wear a poppie . but i would not show any disrespect or ill- feeling to anyone who choose too wear one as they are rembering there war dead.

that symbol for me is too british and many irishmen died for britian under a false pretense.. ( also many irish died at the hand's of the british ).

Dustaz

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I wouldn't wear a poppy as it's clearly a British symbol. I don't think it's appropriate for an Irishperson to wear one, simply because it's primarily in remembrance of the war dead of a foreign nation. No disrespect to those who served though. My grand-uncle fought at Monte Cassino fair play to him.

Whats "clearly british" about it biffa? Its a flower that grows in the fields of France and Belgium.

Its rememberence of people who died, regardless of the nation they were from.

two people alluded to the fact that somehow irishmen were 'tricked' somehow into fighting for britain in WW1.
It might interest you to know that 49,000 irish men volunteered for the british army in WW2 - More than were recruited from Ulster. These men were certainly not tricked into fighting for britain, and i think its a nonsense to say that WW1 soldiers were.

DiscoStu

the fact is that the contribution of the irish who fought for the british army is ignored in large by the british army and government, so i dont think it is really appropriate to wear one.

Zombrex

These men were certainly not tricked into fighting for britain, and i think its a nonsense to say that WW1 soldiers were.

Excellent point. They were trick only in so far as all soldiers were tricked into the first world war, by promises of a quick war (over by Christmas) and that they were defending the free world, not pawns in a political rivialry

Oh, and I don't mean to cause offence, but we were actually part of Britian when the war broke out ... these men didn't leave Ireland to go fight for Britian, they were Britian.

the fact is that the contribution of the irish who fought for the british army is ignored in large by the british army and government, so i dont think it is really appropriate to wear one.

I would have thought that that would be a very goodreason to wear one ... if the british arm doesn't remember who will

wearing a poppy is not a symbol of supporting the modern British army ... god, if that was the case I would be burning them.

spongebob

Wicknight hit a rich vein of truth there.

"Excellent point. They were trick only in so far as all soldiers were tricked into the first world war, by promises of a quick war (over by Christmas) and that they were defending the free world, not pawns in a political rivialry"

and they were promised home rule when they came back....in early 1915

anyway, the sales proceeds go to the British Legion, is it registered here as a charity?

M

tHE vAGGABOND

It was complicated, but my reading of it was that a lot of people signed up for world war one on the basis they were told they would be 'earning' home rule. A lot of these people would not have signed up otherwise. Now I’m sure others signed up for other reasons of course. Be that defending Europe, or being in the army and getting a nice pension out of it

Tim Pat Coogans book "Where ever Green is worn" has some great bits and stories of the "Irish regiments" in both wars from Irish and European points of view if anyone wants to read more outside of school!

tHE vAGGABOND

<long boring history>
"In 1914 a so-called "Home Rule" Act was passed - empowering the Irish people to play at a "Parliament" in Dublin, whose enactment’s could be vetoed by either the British Lord Lieutenant or the British Parliament. The Irish Parliamentary Party grasping at any straw that might save it from being finally engulfed, begged Ireland to believe that this was the nations "great charter of liberty". When the "Home Rule" Bill became law, it was postponed on the plea that the war was on - in reality because Sir Edward Carson forbade its application. The British Government kept postponing it period after period, till eventually it never went into force. The Irish people most of whom had at first been deceived into regarding it as a desirable step toward larger liberty, eventually disillusioned, would not in the end accept it. In the English House of Commons John Redmond in 1914, unreservedly offered the services of the manhood of Ireland in one of Englands wars. The Parliamentary leaders, Redmond, Dillon, Devlin and O’Connor, came out openly as Englands recruiting sergeants"

Maybe "tricked" was not the right word - but lots of people thought they were working towards home rule..

But again, we all know Ireland changed a lot between 1914 and Easter 1916.

daveg

My grandad fought in the WW2 so I would wear one.

Zombrex

It was complicated, but my reading of it was that a lot of people signed up for world war one on the basis they were told they would be 'earning' home rule.

it wasn't so much that they were "earning" home rule, more that they were saying thank you for home rule.

They believed that they had achieved home rule (da fools) and that now it was time to fight with the English against the evil Germans.

But don't forget that back in 1914 a lot of people felt war was not neccessarily a bad thing, and could even be a good thing. Everyone believed that the war would be over quickly, and they believed that German and its allies were a serious threat to both England and Ireland. No one imagined the horrors that waited the Irish men, least of all Redmond and co.

Kix

Would anyone be willing to send me one?

It would particularly mean a lot to my girlfriend who's really wanted to get one for the last two years.

At least she's have it for next year.

K

sceptre

Originally posted by Kix
Would anyone be willing to send me one?

I've not seen anyone selling them (but then again in the mid-west someone selling poppies would probably get beaten up)

There are some region contacts from the British legion here - at a guess the chap from Norn Iron would at least know how to get your hands on one (he'd probably be amazed and pleased that someone south of the border asked). The poppy official website is @ www.poppy.org.uk

Chaos-Engine

Almost all the men on my fathers side of the family have fought in the wars that Ireland was in(under the Brit Empire) and not in(WW2). My Great Great Grandfather died in the Boer war and is on the Stephens Green Arch...
Saying this I wouldn't wear a poppy. It symbolises British success in war and thanks those that fought for the crown. I'm not anti-british but why don't they commemorate all those that died in the wars. Not just British men and their allies.

What about the Germans I say??

And not forgetting the civilians

Or the 19 million that died in the Flu epademic in 1919??

I say why not commemorate war in such a way that it has no honour.
BE ANTI-WAR

War is bad. Is that not a simple fact of history. Don't give me that crap that it helps stop injustice. It just serves to preserve the elite that currently hold power. I'm no lefty looney. I just hate war. I was in Croatia with my father in 1995 and saw some terrible things.

Wear the CND badge. I know its about Nuclear Disarmenment but it has a duel purpose

cujimmy

I wore one for the past few days

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

PH01

Originally posted by daveirl
Dual purpose

But seriously I wouldn't wear one myself but I'm not a symbol wearing type of guy. I don't wear daffodils on daffodil day or anything, but I think anyone who wants should wear one without having some bigot on their case!

I'm not being smart or anything but don't you, and everybody, wear symbols or badges all the time in the form of designer or brand labels?
If you wear a Polo shirt which has a little horsey and a polo player design on the front, or if you wear a football shirt with the team and sponsors logo on display, you're saying and stating something?

Dustaz

Originally posted by DiscoStu
the fact is that the contribution of the irish who fought for the british army is ignored in large by the british army and government, so i dont think it is really appropriate to wear one.

Why do you say this?

The brittish army scaled back its irish regiments (of which there were plenty) after Irelands Independance but to this day there are 2 irish regiments, including one guards regiment. It was the Irish Guards who carried the queen mothers coffin at her funeral (one from Dublin, one from Limerick). The Army brings these soldiers of both these regiments to war graves in france and belgium to lay flowers and commemorate the dead of thier regiments every year. Its more than they do for the Canadians.

meglome

Tough one...

I'm very anti-war and have no love for the British military. But in Ireland we are a bit allergic to remembering our war dead, probably as they fought mostly for Britain. I can understand this sentiment but maybe the state should make more of an effort. As for wearing poppies, it seems to me it's a completely British symbol and has little relevance to Ireland today. We should change the symbolism and that would help immensely.

I've always had a problem with the way the first world is remembered anyway. A good chuck of the men who died, did so out of the complete incompetence of their commanders, millions perhaps. That is something which is hard to swallow, what an utter waste. Glorious sacrifice… I think not.

Bard

Originally posted by PH01
I'm not being smart or anything but don't you, and everybody, wear symbols or badges all the time in the form of designer or brand labels?

That's completely different. Wearing Levis as opposed to, say, St. Bernard isn't making a statement, political or otherwise... unless that statement is "I like these pants".

If you wear a Polo shirt which has a little horsey and a polo player design on the front, or if you wear a football shirt with the team and sponsors logo on display, you're saying and stating something?

Not really, no. Well at least I'm not... but I'm not one thats particularly swayed by big brand names as opposed to quality.

And no, I wouldn't wear a poppy... for the same reasons as many here. I don't feel the need to wear some little symbol to portray out loud to the world that I support or sympathise with someone.

In the same way, I'll contribute to charities on the street but will tell them to keep the stupid little sticker or pin they want to put on the lapel of my jacket.

mm.ie

You know its funny. I would wear a poppy but I would not wear an easter lilly.

Why?

Because I like to remember the politically incorrect (since about 1922) Irishmen who gave their lives in the great war of 1914-18.

I would not wear an easter lily because its symbolysm has been hijacked by northern republicans, and I would not wear it in case somebody would understand by it that I supported a load of marxist murderers.

mike65

As stated above I dont wear such symbols but I certainly dont object to others doing so.

However, and this is slightly a side issue, I dont like the way that the media in the UK make such a show of rememberence, every last man Jack seems to be wearing a poppy regardless of context. I guess its an unwritten rule that everyone on the telly should be wearing one. If so I'm agin that sort of pressure to conform to an "acceptable" norm.

Mike.

Victor

Whatever about various memorials in existance, there appears to be little for the victims of 1916, 1918-1921, 1922-1923 and 1969-1998 and various other domestic incidents, in which approximately 10,000 people have died in total.

When is the Day of Remembrance here? I know it is held separately, but not sure when.

Some Irish War Memorials

Garden of Remembrance (all wars & UN actions)
http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/ParksandGardens/DublinArea/GardenofRemembranceDublin/

War Memorial Gardens (WWI memorial - 49,400 dead)
http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/ParksandGardens/DublinArea/WarMemorialGardensDublin/

St Stephens Green (South African War Memorial Arch - 800 dead)
http://www.heritageireland.ie/en/ParksandGardens/DublinArea/StStephensGreenDublin/ (South African War Memorial)

WWII Merchant Navy Memorial (several dozen dead)
City Quay Dublin

---

A (very) brief history of Ireland (from the BBC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A698862

Victor

The story I alluded to earlier. Apologies if it is off-topic.

I went to Belgium in November 1998 to attend the opening of the Irish monument at Messines / Mesen. I got hassled by immigration on the way back (and on the way out, "Sir, please do not brandish the pocket knife on the hovercraft" :rolleyes:) - lone, young, Irish male and all that, so I kept them chatting for about ten minutes and then produced this.

mike65

I hope they looked appropriatly awkward....

Mike.

Victor

From http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/viewitem.asp?id=140&lang=ENG

The Commemoration Initiatives Fund is a fund established to make resources available to groups and organisations for the study and commemoration of historic events of national importance. By providing financial support to local organisations, the aim of the Fund is to assist and encourage the development of local programmes of commemoration. Given the limited budget available, such funding is, in general and by necessity, of a token nature.

In assessing projects for funding issues such as:
impact
significance and relevance
geographic spread
balance between popular and academic
educational content and
viability
are taken into account.
For further information contact Northern_ireland@taoiseach.gov.ie

rien_du_tout

I personally dont agree with wearing a poppy due to additional symbolic value which the English give it. I agree with commemoration of the dead on all sides.

I do thing its stange that anything nationalistic can be taken to be violently republican. For example its not advised to sing rebel songs at school shows even though the person has a great talent for them.

seán

Dyr

Fascinating to see theres so many people who only wear the poppy to show their deep admiration for the irish men and women who died to save our country from being overrun by a foreign government.

One presumes that their admiration for their fellow countrymens sacrifice runs so deep that they all religiously celebrate veterans day to remember the Irish who died in the service of the United States armed forces? of course they do :rolleyes:

The poppy is not an apolitical symbol because most of the people in this country who promote do not want it to be, its a symbol they use to highlight their political viewpoint, just as an easter lily is. Bit of honesty wouldnt go amiss here.

Incidentally, Im not quite sure what all this fuss about concentration camps and world war two is. The british army ran the first concentration camps, but sure, unlike the shutzstaffel and heer camp guards they were just doing what the politicians told them.

billy the squid

Incidentally, Im not quite sure what all this fuss about concentration camps and world war two is. The british army ran the first concentration camps, but sure, unlike the shutzstaffel and heer camp guards they were just doing what the politicians told them.

first let me be the first to welcome this thread to 2005,

second a point of order if you please. the british were not in fact the first army to use concentration camps, it was in fact the spannish during the war they had in the late 19th century with the United states.

the theory that the brittish were the first to employ concentration camps during the boer war is indeed a myth.