Members IRC session details.

Dangger

Server - ign.ie.quakenet.org
Port - 6667
Channel - #ioffline
Tonight at 7pm there is a virtual get together via IRC to discuss how IrelandOffline can use its growing membership as effectively as possible.

Various ideas have been discussed and tried in the past including the use of working groups, and the creation of regional chapters.

This is an opportunity to constructively analyse the possibilities.

We'll be staying on topic for a 60 minute session. I'm anxious to adhere to this time limit, as from previous experience people like to enter 'telco rant mode', which in this case will serve no purpose.

This is the first time we've used IRC to have a membership discussion. I decided against doing a full membership mail shot to publicise it at such short notice. Depending on how it works out it's likely that such a means of virtual assembly will be used again. I'm unsure how it would work with a large number of attendees though.

Everyone is welcome.

Dustaz

I cant be there due to work committments but im sure it will be a useful session.

Id urge everyone with an interest to connect and have thier input

yellum

Originally posted by Dangger

to discuss how IrelandOffline can use its growing membership as effectively as possible.

[/B]

Surely then if you are discussing how to use the power of the membership all the membership should be informed ? All members should be informed about a meeting that could be reponsible for the direction of the group. This would be to prevent members getting miffed at the idea that they were not asked to contribute.

Perhaps this is too short notice, and the medium itself is untested, but next time let everyone know ?

I'm wary myself of irc sessions and agree that they can go way off topic and could turn into telco rants. Seeing 2500 in an irc channel would be "interesting" though.

Could an agenda be set and posted here for tonight so we know whats going to happen before it starts, otherwise some time will be wasted at the begining explaining the way the session is going to be run.

I'll be there tonight, cya then.

Dustaz

Just a quick note to say that you can also connect to ign.ie.quakenet.org: 6667

Its the irish quakenet (b0rk is part of quakenet) server and our very own regi is one of the ircops on it


Yellum, Without trying to speak for Dangger, Id guess that as the medium is untested and IRCs suitability is unknown for meetings of this type, tonights session is probably a 'trial run' sort of deal as well as being an oppurtunity for people to have a say.

[guesstimate]
and also, the membership may officially be 2,500, but theres no way youll ever get more than 100 at the same time
[/guesstimate]

BKtje

i dont know what exactly is planned for tonight but it might be an idea to moderate the channel and any one with questions to pm one or two people. These people can then stick forward the question or proposal or whatever.

Or moderate it until the discussion stage. This will avoid people ranting about telco's and allow others to learn what they want to learn etc.

If this is just a dicussion session than this idea obviously wouldnt work

yellum

Originally posted by Dustaz


[guesstimate]
and also, the membership may officially be 2,500, but theres no way youll ever get more than 100 at the same time
[/guesstimate]

True

dahamsta

Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

adam

PiE

If it is just a trial run, theres no point in wasting dozens of peoples time if it goes horribly wrong. Better just to let the ~15 that show up at short notice waste their time ;]

yellum

I may not make it afterall. Just got a call that my friends father died last night. Removal this afternoon in North Cork. I'll be going. So if I'm not back in time heres my list of suggestions:

Have an interest in ADSL form for each exchange on the IrelandOffline website , like the BT one. Throw this in the face of Eircom and the ODTR who say theres no interest.

Listing of all exchanges in Ireland and the phone numbers they represent so people know what exchange they're on.

A coordinated letter writing campaign to every td in the country, this letter would be different for each party and would contain a synopsis of what their party line is and what should be changed. Included would be some telco facts and price comparisons. Also would be a request for a reply and opinion. These replies should be written up and published on the website.

Create a mass petition. Give signature sheets to all 2500 members, get them to get 50 people to sign the sheet, hand it back to IrelandOffline and deliver this to Dail Eireann or the Government with a load of press there with you.

Bring big business over to our side, this should be easy enough if they see the economic advantages. Contact IBEC and other groups. Big business carries a lot of weight.

Create embarassing facts about the state of the net in Ireland and advertise them. What would the government think if all international companies that were interested in moving here found out how bad the net situation is. Same goes for skilled workers coming to this country that indutry requires, would they come here if they knew that all this e-island hype was mere bull**** ?

Someone should coordinate making complaints to the ASAI about misleading ads about the internet.

Press Articles / News Features:
If theres something on the news or newspapers about net access in this country thats incorrect there should be an option for members to report this and reply to the journalist with proper facts. Send them the IrelandOffline fact sheet etc.


Listening to new ideas and if they're good do something about it besides recognising they're good and do no more. Delegate the work to the member that suggested the idea. Get them to do the work with the help of other members and have them hand it back to the committee.

Include some sort of timeline on the website about whats been done or not done so far about internet access in Ireland...

List who IrelandOffline has met with on the website. You do not have to give the details of the meeting but just let members know that we have already talked to certain people besides people doing the same work again.

Someone mentioned local chapters, not a bad idea, this would allow coordination of the education of local representatives and also the education of local business people.

Dangger

Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

adam

I don't expect you to Adam, I don't expect you to.

I gave notice on the thread which set this idea in motion on Friday night. I'm not looking to have a huge contingent of people partake, although all are welcome. I'd rather discuss it and examine it then let it fester.

I'm repsonding to recent comments about members inability to contribute to IOFFL's operation. Personaly I feel members individual actions to date have been most beneficial.

However recently people have brought up the issue and feel members could be given more specific tasks to carry out with the committee's seal of approval.

Tonight we are looking for suggestions and we will examine them. I'm sure we'll be using IRC again if we have success tonight. Then you can have all the notice you want, and indeed all the members will be notified. Think of this as a trial run.

Dangger

So if I'm not back in time heres my list of suggestions:

Thanks. Some sound suggestions. In fact eh.. (as Bertie would say), I'm going to add one of those ideas to the site right away. A list of people with whom we have met in an official capacity.

Some more of your suggestions are ones which we could implement if someone would be willing to complete some initial work already started. The fact sheet for example.

The trigger level mapping is something that I'm really keen on persuing . However I'd like to investigate getting some funding to carry out such a survey. I'm quite sure we could.

dahamsta

I'm afraid I've lost all faith in IrelandOffline. Your answers and actions are purely political; your interaction with the membership is miniscule; and your stated direction panders to the industry, even if it's opposing industry.

Like I said, I don't know what you're at. Your smarmy answer doesn't help either.

adam

EDIT: Now I come to think about it, IrelandOffline doesn't represent me any more, hasn't done in months. Dustaz, do me a favour and put my posts in this thread in the Recycle Bin. I won't be posting in the IrelandOffline forum any more. IrelandOffline was supposed to be about comms, not careers.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Dangger
The trigger level mapping is something that I'm really keen on persuing . However I'd like to investigate getting some funding to carry out such a survey. I'm quite sure we could.

The other thing is that we'd want some sort of independent verification of the trigger levels. Something tells me that we might not get the best answers by asking the telcos

Dangger

Sorry to hear that Adam.

But I thought thats how you've felt for several months now.

Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

This does not help in the slightest. It just wears us/me out.

Ronan|Raven

I shall turn up for a while anyway.

DonegalMan

Sorry I wont be around this evening Dave but good luck

Martin

Tellox

might as well pop in and see whats going on..

sax0000

Originally posted by Dangger


The trigger level mapping is something that I'm really keen on persuing . However I'd like to investigate getting some funding to carry out such a survey. I'm quite sure we could.

What’s trigger level mapping please?

sax0000

SkepticOne

Originally posted by sax0000
What’s trigger level mapping please?

Tracking might be a better word, i.e., keeping track of the demand for DSL in a given exchange area until it reaches a threshold.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

conZ

and for those who dont have mIRC, and dont have the bandwidth to download it, go here...

http://www.boards.ie/chat/index.php

type in your nickname, hit Connect Now! and when connected, type /join #ioffline

Bard

the discussion was logged by daveirl.

the log is here.

muchos gracias.

obewan

I just read the "Log." First off I haven't been much of a member for participating in discussions or get-togethers but:

I do think that "chat sessions" are extremely hard to keep organised.

Personal opinion here: Let's say you have an hour's chat take 10/15 minutes discussion, then sumarise and ask for input from ALL who are there. Continue for the next 10/15 minutes and repeat until your time is up. That way everyone has their chance to speak.

I noticed that not everyone stayed, maybe because they could not get to speak or were unable to follow the discussion.


As David said (I think) it's better to get a few items sorted than have a whole lot of ideas and get NOTHING done. It was well operated for a first time effort and David you're efforts are not un-noticed.

My tuppence worth.


Mick.

timod

Sorry lads, missed this. Just reading the forum now. Read the logs, seemed interesting.

If I was there, my main point, and I 've mentioned this before to Dave, and Bard mentioned it in the irc session, but I think we really should be using the mailing list more. Maybe once a fortnight send out a summary of recent developments.

*I'm quite willing to compose a summarising email fortnightly to send out to our entire membership*

Tim

timod

Originally posted by dahamsta

EDIT: Now I come to think about it, IrelandOffline doesn't represent me any more, hasn't done in months. Dustaz, do me a favour and put my posts in this thread in the Recycle Bin. I won't be posting in the IrelandOffline forum any more. IrelandOffline was supposed to be about comms, not careers.

Jeez Adam, calm down man.

gurramok

Originally posted by timod
Sorry lads, missed this.

same here, i was on my usual but different irc server elsewhere.

Short notice, perhaps a mail could have been sent out to inform peeps of such forthcoming events ?
If a mail was sent out, i would of been there !

MDR

Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

That should read

Atrocious notice Ireland Offline Committee. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

Don't attack Dave in particular, he does very little without a committee mandate. Bit like shooting the messenger.

I won't be posting in the IrelandOffline forum any more. IrelandOffline was supposed to be about comms, not careers.

Thats your decision Adam, but I find it quite hard to reconcile your attacks on the committee with the reality of Ireland Offline.

We are just a bunch of ordinary people trying to do our best for the membership, trying to our best for our country, our only reward being the occasional successes enjoy. I personally do it because I think its important.

You are right we need more interaction with members. It something I am trying to work on, I won't make any excuses and will only say that member interaction and accountablity should improve dramatically in the next few months (yes I know its a long time scale).

yellum

Originally posted by MDR


You are right we need more interaction with members. It something I am trying to work on, I won't make any excuses and will only say that member interaction and accountablity should improve dramatically in the next few months (yes I know its a long time scale).

That almost sounds like a Political spin to be honest.

How will member interaction and accountability improve in the next few months ?

It might be better to make out what will be done, split it into bite sized chunks and give a date of completion for each one.

Is this as a result of the IRC session last night or was it something you were working on all along ?

If it was being worked on already why were the membership not informed of this ? Should be the first step in the direction of accountability surely ....

Damien.

Dustaz

Yellum, What is your agenda?

Over the past week or so, nearly every post you have made has been in some way politically motivated. You have used every thread to take what could be taken as veiled shots at the committee. You undoubedly have some valid concerns and theres nothing wrong with constructive critisicm, but tbh you sound like a backbench opposition TD. Maybe its just the way im reading it.

This is just an observation because its starting to slighly annoy me, not as mod as youve done nothing wrong, but as a member of ioffl who thinks the committee are doing a decent job. Sure, there are areas that could be improved, i dont think anyone denies that but Reading critisicms in every thread becomes tiresome (we get enough of that with eircom:) ).

I dont mean any offense by this, dont take it as an attack on some of your better ideas

MDR

How will member interaction and accountability improve in the next few months ?

I hope to (as part of the committee) procduce a 'Members Pack' to compliment, the 'Press Pack' I am currentily trying to rollout. It will contain all the information and document a member needs to take action on belhalf of Ireland Offline. I also hope to introduce a complaints procedure were members can raise issue with the committee action.

It might be better to make out what will be done, split it into bite sized chunks and give a date of completion for each one.

It rather difficult to do that I am afraid. Other more pressing concerns often interfere, such as consultation documents that need to be reponded to, complaints that need to be made, meetings that have to be gone to, etc. I find it very difficult to guestimate my time in work, nevermind IOFFL.

Is this as a result of the IRC session last night or was it something you were working on all along ?

Its something I have been talking about for quite some time, but other more pressing concerns have conspired to delay it.

If it was being worked on already why were the membership not informed of this ?

<Skeptic1> ray is working on a FAQ

Should be the first step in the direction of accountability surely ....

The AGM should provide all the accountability that is needed, however in the new webby world, a web based complaints procedure might be worth exploring.

Bard

Originally posted by Dustaz
You have some valid concerns, but tbh you sound like a backbench opposition TD.

While I might not fully agree with (or be fully aware of) Yellum's opinions or his posting tactics, I feel it's worth mentioning that even backbench opposition TD's have their place.

Dustaz

Yeh, i edited the post as it was a little extreme (work is a bit ehavy atm).

Im all for constructive critisiscm. Its just that there was accusations of spin and political aspirations thrown at the committe in this forum and i dont think thats too fair.

milltown

I'm very sorry to see some of the above views expressed on this forum, particularly given the timing. The inertia of the huge telco wheel has only just been overcome and we are beginning to see some movement in the right direction, or at the very least, the promise of movement from minister Ahern and EsatBT.
There does appear to be a startling amount of venom being spat lately from some of the more prominent posters. A lot has been achieved in the past year and I can't help but think that the reason could be the shift from the original IrelandOffline, which from the outside looking in gave the impression of a bunch of cry bahs whinging about having their internet taken away (not flaming, it was always a noble cause but that is how it appeared to me), to a respected lobby group whose views are now sought and respected by the media and the decision makers.
Keep up the good work and f**k the begrudgers!

yellum

Originally posted by Dustaz
Yellum, What is your agenda?

Fair point. I give a damn about IOFFL. If I didn't care about it I wouldn't waste my time and bandwidth (both owned by my company during the day ) I am anxious like everyone else for it to suceed.

I didn't mean to make veiled shots, they're sneaky. If I have something to say I'll say it outright. I thought thats what I did since the end of last week.

Lately I felt that IrelandOffline were fading away from member interaction completely and just becoming a half dozen people who met with various groups and that was it. My opinion of a pressure group is one that utilizes its resources to the maximum, this has not been done by IrelandOffline and is a complete waste. Right now as well if all the committee left the thing would fall apart. I feel it should be structured and

but tbh you sound like a backbench opposition TD

Whats wrong with backbench opposition TDs ? They have a place

but as a member of ioffl who thinks the committee are doing a decent job. Sure, there are areas that could be improved, i dont think anyone denies that but Reading critisicms in every thread becomes tiresome

See I don't, I'm glad of what they've done so far but I have aired my thoughts on where I thought they have gone wrong. I've done so publically too so that all members can reply with their views. Actually while I wasn't trolling I'd have hoped for more people to express their support for what irelandOffline have done so far.

I think the matters that will be addressed as a result of the irc session is a step in the right direction definetly but it has to be done strictly and professionally. IrelandOffline needs to think and act like a professional organisation.

I am also of the opinion that being afraid to take criticism is wrong. IrelandOffline should be well able to take criticism and if its confident of its structure and its ability it will bounce off them.

I welcome people that nitpick, theres a place for these people. ( me ) They can be a dose of reality when everyone else thinks all is rosey.

Milltown: Its not begrudging its grown up realism. IOFFL need to be bulletproof and tough to take on the behemoths of the Government and Eircom. There is always room for improvement and things that can be tweaked, having people finding things that are wrong should be welcomed not sneered at and called begrudging

I dont mean any offense by this, dont take it as an attack on some of your better ideas

No problem lad. Its good that people are sticking up for IrelandOffline and expressing their views.

yellum

Originally posted by Dustaz

Its just that there was accusations of spin and political aspirations thrown at the committe in this forum and i dont think thats too fair.

It its an issue with moderation then fine, if its not then let the Committee members answer it. You moderate this forum, you are not the pro for the committee.

dahamsta

MDR, I appreciate your response, however I'm not going to continue debating the matter as I don't believe I'll be allowed to express myself adequately. Sorry.

adam

yellum

Originally posted by MDR


It rather difficult to do that I am afraid. Other more pressing concerns often interfere, such as consultation documents that need to be reponded to, complaints that need to be made, meetings that have to be gone to, etc. I find it very difficult to guestimate my time in work, nevermind IOFFL.
......
Its something I have been talking about for quite some time, but other more pressing concerns have conspired to delay it.

So farm out the work to the battalion of members. I know the committee are swamped. Stop being martyrs or you will die of exhaustion !

MDR

So farm out the work to the battalion of members. I know the committee are swamped. Stop being martyrs or you will die of exhaustion !

We do our best to delegate, its not always as easy as you think.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Dustaz

Fair points Yellum boy

Originally posted by yellum
It its an issue with moderation then fine, if its not then let the Committee members answer it. You moderate this forum, you are not the pro for the committee.

Yeh, again, i was speaking as a memeber of Ioffl.

yellum

So then, to drag up an old thread. Whats happened since the IRC session ?

Wasn't there meant to be a constitution and an increased frequency of mailing to the membership and more irc sessions and well a whole stack of other things ?

Since the Comreg is still new it might be good to make moves.

Xian

Originally posted by yellum

So then, to drag up an old thread. Whats happened since the IRC session ?

Wasn't there meant to be a constitution and an increased frequency of mailing to the membership and more irc sessions and well a whole stack of other things ?

It's hardly an opportune time to bring this up, is it yellum? What with Dave still abroad and the only other committee member present at the irc session, Mike, no longer on the committee.

Well, here goes.

What I do remember was daveirl taking it upon himself to come back with a draft constitution, you to compile a telco timeline, regional chapters to be established and working groups to be set up. The first two have not happened, the second two are in progress but real action on these will not take place until January, which looks like it will be a very busy time indeed...

Since the Comreg is still new it might be good to make moves.

Exactly. So we need as much feedback as possible to formulate our response to the draft direction as this will be template on which future regulation will be based for a long time to come. Phil Nolan's call for less regulation is an indication of how high the stakes are. Take for example an issue close to your own interests:

Regulation only where necessary

• The Commission, except where required otherwise by statutory obligations, shall before deciding to impose regulatory obligations for the purpose of the management of the radio frequency spectrum, examine where the objectives of such regulatory obligations would be better achieved by forbearance from imposition of such obligations.

Now if this direction goes in without anyone commenting on it, what do you think the effect will be? None to good, I think you'll agree. As I said, ComReg have to comply with any direction given by the Minister. Has it been commented on? If not it will stand and we'll have to live with the consequences of this as ComReg in deciding on RF will be bound to follow the direction and that does not bode well for the future.

As you've seen from MrPudding's posts, we are working on a publicity drive - papers, radio, tv - in January at and after the time of submitting the responses. This is the time when public opinion counts as it is the time that Minister Ahern will be looking to his electorate to decide what will make the government look good regarding telecoms in Ireland. Right now we have to get the response right. That's something we all should be doing right now.

giving the pressure group equivalent of a backrub and suggestitive whispers in the ear isn't proactive. There should be more of "Oi Comreg, we're watching you and we are going to publically chastise you if you don't do a good job "

Regarding acting while ComReg is new, I agree, but does it take one of us to point out that it might be a very good idea to slap ComReg with a FOI request for all correspondence and documentation relating to the introduction of wholesale sms and the marketing by Eircom of their retail service? Doesn't take much to figure out that there'll be some juicy bits in that. Make no mistake, we are watching every move they make and they know full well. You want to be a part of that? Submit the FOI request. Right now it's just an idea, just like the EU CA idea. Ideas are ten a penny. What it needs is someone to pick it up and run with it. All it takes is a simple letter - unlike the EU CA initiative which would involve a dedicated effort over a number of months to follow the due process Muck described. Not that it too should not be done, it's just that I don't understand how there are repeated calls for the membership to be involved and yet every month ideas like this are left by the wayside because people consider it to be our, or at least someone else's, job to carry the can. It isn't. It's your job.

Proactive, innit.

dahamsta

Sorry to pick on one thing, but I don't have time to go into the rest of it right now...

the only other committee member present at the irc session, Mike, no longer on the committee.

Was this announced?

Thanks,
adam

yellum

Thanks for the answer Xian, its past my bedtime so I'll reply tomorrow

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
Was this announced?

Yes, adam, at short notice - something you picked Dave up on at the time, and not for the last time either, but something which has to be remedied in future.

dahamsta

Nah, I didn't. The last time I criticised IrelandOffline for short notice was about the dwinks in Dublin. I can only remember one other time before that, and I think that was with regard to another meeting. It certainly wasn't about Mike. First I heard of it, although I'm not blaming anyone, just curious is all.

The gain, Xian, the gain.

adam

PiE

Was there a reason? Or just work commitments etc?

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
I can only remember one other time before that

If you look at the beginning of this thread you will find...

Originally posted by dahamsta
Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

sceptre

I'm pretty sure (even after only 45 mins sleep last night - too many movies, not enough study time) that Adam was asking whether there was an announcement about Mike's leaving the committee a few posts above - rather than asking whether the IRC session was announced (which wouldn't make much sense given that he already posted about that a while back)

dahamsta

What sceptre said. Which should have been pretty obvious given that I clearly said "It certainly wasn't about Mike" in the second post. Turn it down Xian!

heh

adam

SkepticOne

Yeah I left the committee a while back. I wanted to keep it low-key so I asked the remaining committee not to make an announcement. Instead I asked one of the admins to remove the 'IOFFL Committee' from my handle thinking that this would be sufficient. Pressure of work/college etc.