Fianna Fáil

Duffman

Received the following txt message.. amusing, hate-filled and true...

"Fianna Fail is changing its emblem to a condom coz it supports inflation, halts production, protects pricks and gives u a sense of security while ur being screwed"

pork99

ROFLOL

I've always believed you can be an honest person, an intelligent person or be in Fianna Fail but not all three at the same time

PH01

Originally posted by pork99
ROFLOL

I've always believed you can be an honest person, an intelligent person or be in Fianna Fail but not all three at the same time

The truth hurts sometimes doesn't it?

Cork

I think that ye seem to have very selective memories. Mr Michael Lowry awarded Irelands second mobile licence to ESAT. He is an indepenant TD now. We also have the miracle of FG debt reductions. Bertie appointed Burke but he was not criticised in the Dail at the time for doing so.

FF delivered the Celtic tiger. FF delivered the peace process. Albert delivered much. He was hounded by our media.

There are corrupt TDs. But there are corrupt people in every section of our community. There too are honest and hard working TDs in every party.

Some of which such as Albert got a raw deal from our media

gandalf

Cork most of the corrupt TD's & Councillors are members of FF.

FF did not deliver the Celtic Tiger they killed it

FF did not deliver the Peace Process a whole variety of committed individuals and the full range of political parties in Ireland, the UK and even the US did.

Please stop with this blinkered attitute towards your beloved FF its wearing then :rolleyes:

Gandalf.

ReefBreak

Gandalf. the idea that FF killed the Celtic tiger is ridiculous. (I'm a PD voter btw). The main, possibly the only, reason for the downturn is the Global Economic Climate. We are a small open economy that's very susceptible to world-wide economic changes. That's the reason for the end of the "Celtic Tiger".

I find it ironic that when the going is good, all the usual suspects (e.g. the Left w(h)ingers in Ireland) were screaming for increased spending by the governement on services and infrastructure. Now, the Left are screaming that the government spent too much? Personally, I don't believe they spent too much, but I do think they were caught unawares by the extent of the downturn.

Yes, we know there are/were corrupt TDs in Fianna Fail, as there are/were in FG, but I do believe that the present government are the only one with the balls to keep a tight rein on public spending - that's one of the reasons I voted for the present government. Plus, I'm glad to see we have a Finance Minister that takes no sh*t, and is willing to make the tough decisions. Thankfully, Labour (or even worse, Sinn Fein or the other Socialists) aren't in charge, you can be sure the country's economy would be completely destroyed. They would increase taxes and borrowing (as Labour promised in it's election manifesto), almost certainly beyond sustainable levels... Goodbye low unemployment and a solid, modern economy.

As an aside, I recently heard a Sinn Fein supporter criticising government corruption. What a joke. Columbia, 30 years of murdering people, punishment beatings, Castlerea, you name it... The cretins in Sinn Fein make FF look like a bunch of buddhists monks.

Mailman

Reefbreak, Gandalf is right, you are wrong and only people with the attention span and IQ of a goldfish would find themselves in agreement with you.

Current spending spiralled out of control in the last 5 years due to weak government - FF had no balls and ignored the problem and what's more, they actually poured money into the public sector in advance of the election, knowing that the finances were in a poor state just to get re-elected.

As the government weren't able to control the cost of living in Ireland we suffered more than many other countries in that mobile multi-nationals that were attracted to this country thanks to cheap labour have deserted the country as labour costs increased. I see this in my own company and in many others that operate in the same industrial estate. So you've got multi-nationals pulling out on top of a global econmic depression.

You can't name a handful of corrupt FG or Labour politicians and at least these parties know that they should expel these politicians from their political parties rather than using corrupt politicians to prop up an unstable government.
FF was always corrupt. It was the same 50 years ago and a government collapsed as a result, the difference now is that the party has lost whatever scruples it used to have.
It doesn't have the cop-on to fire PJ Mara. He had to be cojoled to resign when it was obvious to all that his position was untenable.
Reefbreak what are you going to think of FF when they are forced to increase direct and indirect taxes in the coming budget? Any economist can tell you that Ireland can afford to increase borrowing without putting the economy in jepoardy. They might argue whether it is the best thing to do or not but they would all agree that it wouldn't necessarily ruin the country.

Shazbat

Originally posted by ReefBreak
As an aside, I recently heard a Sinn Fein supporter criticising government corruption. What a joke. Columbia, 30 years of murdering people, punishment beatings, Castlerea, you name it... The cretins in Sinn Fein make FF look like a bunch of buddhists monks. [/B]

I feel alot more kindlier towards Fianna Fail now.

I think I will stop being annoyed at how useless, corrupt and wasteful they are, all thanks to that statement from you ReefBreak.

That was a well thought out argument. "Fianna Fail are crap, but Sinn Fein beat people up"

The 'Shinners' (as some people hilariously call them) give joyriders and drug dealers a few slaps, who are scum of the earth. And the whole columbian thing is a load of shít, who cares if they were training terrorists over there? America trained bin laden etc etc. Nobody attacked america over that, it was pointed out in the media as a kind of amusing, ironic anecdote. It wasn't treated with the same hysteria as the "columbian three". In all honesty is there a difference between the two? I don't think so, but the revelations were reported and commented on in a completely differnt way.

If you compare that with FF ****ting all over the people of this country. What about all the poor bastárds whose operations will be cancelled. In my opinion Fianna Fail have killed people through mismanagement of the country. ie People getting kicked to death on the streets due to an inneffective, lazy police force (who the government is in charge of), I'm sure the cuts in helathcare will polish a few people off too. Never mind the tramps who will freeze or drink themselves to death because they have been pushed aside by the government.

What would you rather have on your conscience? the bruises/broken bones (whatever) of a few joyriding scumbags, and the fact that some people that are affiliated to you were caught teaching columbians how to blow each other up or the lives of all the people you have fúcked up because of your ineptitude and greed?

Oh yeah I read that the Fianna Fail **** have already spent 500 million Euro on the Bertie Bowl, even though nothing has been done. Bertie should fuk off and go and join the FAI or something and stop pretending that he is the leader of Ireland.

Before I go, I would just like to remind people not to tar every sinn fein voter/supporter/TD/councillor/party member with the same brush, as people are doing when they accuse the 'shinners' of carrying out attacks. That is exactly the same as when the unionists go around shouting about Sinn Fein-IRA.
Which just shows blinkered ignorance.

Meh

Originally posted by Shazbat
That was a well thought out argument. "Fianna Fail are crap, but Sinn Fein beat people up"

You're using the same argument yourself -- "Sinn Fein trained terrorists in Colombia, but the US trained Bin Laden".

Oh yeah I read that the Fianna Fail **** have already spent 500 million Euro on the Bertie Bowl,

Where did you read that? Because it's complete rubbish. 500 million was the projected cost to complete the stadium, not the amount that has already been spent.

What would you rather have on your conscience? the bruises/broken bones (whatever) of a few joyriding scumbags, and the fact that some people that are affiliated to you were caught teaching columbians how to blow each other up or the lives of all the people you have fúcked up because of your ineptitude and greed?

I'd rather have neither on my conscience. Which is why I voted for neither Fianna Fail nor Sinn Fein.

ReefBreak

LOL. No, I really am.

Up to last year, FARC made most of their money from kidnapping middle class business people. They never really had the technology to attack the towns and cities in Columbia until this year. That new technology is reported as being a direct copy of IRA methods. Last month, 100 innocent civilians were murdered by FARC after they mortered a church. Put that on you Shinners/IRA-scum concience.

The 'Shinners' (as some people hilariously call them) give joyriders and drug dealers a few slaps, who are scum of the earth. And the whole columbian thing is a load of shít, who cares if they were training terrorists over there?

Ah, I see, so punishment beatings are okay? I thought catching joyriders was a job for the state? Well, we all know what the Shinners think of the State. How is the Columbian thing a "load of sh*t"? Please remember we're talking about FARC here. If the 3 are guilty, I hope they rot in a Columbian jail.

America trained bin laden etc etc. Nobody attacked america over that? There are soldiers of fortune all over the world doing similar things.

Nobody denies that, but at least Al Qaeda and the Taliban were attacked by the US for what they did (murdering 3000 innocent people as they worked). And rightly so.

If you compare that with FF ****ting all over the people of this country. What about all the poor bastárds whose operations will be cancelled. In my opinion Fianna Fail have killed people through mismanagement of the country. ie People getting kicked to death on the streets due to a crap, lazy police force (who the government is in charge of), I'm sure the cuts in helathcare will polish a few people off too. Never mind the tramps who will freeze or drink themselves to death because they have been pushed aside by the government.

It's nothing compared to what Sinn Fein/IRA have done and are doing.

What would you rather have on your conscience? the bruises/broken bones (whatever) of a few joyriding scumbags, and the fact that some people that are affiliated to you were caught teaching columbians how to blow each other up or the lives of all the people you have fúcked up because of your ineptitude and greed?

Do you seriously believe that under Sinn Fein, this country would have a good economy? Don't make me laugh. As was proven time and time again during the election, they don't even know the basics of running an economy. How many lives have been fúcked up? Please remember we still have one the lowest rates of unemployment in the country.

Shazbat

Originally posted by Meh
You're using the same argument yourself -- "Sinn Fein trained terrorists in Colombia, but the US trained Bin Laden"..

I wasn't using is as an argument I was using it as an example of how the media choose to report on incidents.

Originally posted by Meh
Where did you read that? Because it's complete rubbish. 500 million was the projected cost to complete the stadium, not the amount that has already been spent.

Well thats what I read, I don't know if its true or not. Its apparently what has been spent on grants and consultants and all that jazz. Do you have any proof that it is untrue before you start calling it 'complete rubbish'? Prove me wrong if you can. I'll try to find the article that I read and prove you wrong.

deco

Ok this isn't spiraling out of control....

Typedef

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Ah, I see, so punishment beatings are okay? I thought catching joyriders was a job for the state?

What the same former State security forces and current reservists that supplied information on Republican's to the Loyalist paramilitaries, you know the ones who operated a shoot to kill policy, those paragon's of virtue and justice?

No one says vigilantism is right, however the Northern security forces were up until quite recently the police of a "Protestant state for a Protestant people", aside from the fact that some 45+% of said state was not in fact Protestant.

I'll quote myself earlier in this post so I can prempt having to rebuff being called a terrorist,Shinner or say contrition to cleanse my sullied concience 'No one says vigilantism is right'.

Aside from that, I think that in the last six months Fianna Fial has shown it's true colours, by ritualistically lying to the electorate and making a mockery of Irish democracy with the re-run of the Nice Referendum, it's such a pity the opposition is so disorganised because I believe that Fianna Fail should be given a long time out of government to sort themselves and their corrupt party out, take example from the British Tories and take a fifteen year stint out of government so they can come back into it having "maturely reflected" on how being serial liars, anti-democratic and corrupt does in fact imply you aren't fit for government.

I have the conch

Shazbat

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Last month, 100 innocent civilians were murdered by FARC after they mortered a church. Put that on you Shinners/IRA-scum concience.

Theres a touch of Ian Paisley about you with your SINN-FEIN-IRA-SCUM outbursts.

Ok I'm going to use reefbreak logic. "Put the deaths of the people killed on last september 11th on your conscience. Cos America trained bin laden."

Even I think this statement is stupid.

Ah, I see, so punishment beatings are okay? I thought catching joyriders was a job for the state?

So did I. But they aren't really doing a good job. Punishment beating are negligible in this 'state'. And actually I do think that joyriders/drug dealers getting the shít kicked out of them is ok. Call me what you will, I do not have any sympathy for them.

Do you seriously believe that under Sinn Fein, this country would have a good economy?

Could they have done a worse job than Fianna Fail?

Unfortunately I guess we'll probably never know.

Please remember we still have one the lowest rates of unemployment in the country. [/QUOTE]

(I assume you meant the EU?) I'll remember that if you'll remember that only america is ahead of us in terms of the (huge) financial gap between the rich and the
poor.

Typedef

You know kids, insulting each other on a public forum is naff with a capital K.

I suggest handbags at dawn, so the two of you can sort this argument like ladies.

Shazbat

I'm reminded of a signature of one of the boards.ie people

"Arguing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still a retard"

I know this, but I'm weak and I can't help myself sometimes.

But, I have edited my last post to remove some of the more facetious bits.

For the record, vigilantism isn't right, but, neither is the way the justice system is being run at the moment.

Maybe they could meet somewhere in the middle?

Maybe the the gardai's behaviour at the Mayday 'reclaim the streets' protest was a trial run for such a scheme? Whatever happened about that anyway? Was anybody (in the gardai) punished?

Cork

You can't name a handful of corrupt FG or Labour politicians and at least these parties know that they should expel these politicians from their political parties rather than using corrupt politicians to prop up an unstable government

How did FG reduce their debt under John Bruton?
Who appointed Michael Lowry as Minister?
Was Michael Keating not a member of FG?
Had a FG td a Ansbacker account?

FF did not deliver the Celtic Tiger they killed it

Who delivered it? CJH's government introduced agreements with the Unions + albert saw what was happening in the Far East.

There are corrupt people in every village in Ireland. Look at how shop keepers are ripping their customers off? Look at tax dodgers? Look at the great and the good.

Mailman

There Cork, pulling names was a struggle, wasn't it. It's 5 hours since I posted to the thread and only 4 names so far of which two to three are small potatoes.

I'd say the IDA and civil servants put the country back on it's feet, not Charles J. Haughey although he'd like to take credit for everything good that happened in Ireland during his 'reign'.

Meh

Originally posted by Shazbat
For the record, vigilantism isn't right, but, neither is the way the justice system is being run at the moment.

Maybe they could meet somewhere in the middle?

So what exactly would this hybrid justice system you propose look like? Would we retain our present courts, judges, lawyers, juries etc except instead of being sent to jail you'd be taken out the back of the courthouse to have your legs broken? I hear the Saudis have a system like that, we could learn a lot from them.
Or would we keep imprisonment as a punishment, but have suspicious looking people grabbed off the streets by self-appointed vigilantes and sent straight to the Joy instead of bothering with "trials" or "juries" or any of that outdated old crap?

Maybe the the gardai's behaviour at the Mayday 'reclaim the streets' protest was a trial run for such a scheme? Whatever happened about that anyway? Was anybody (in the gardai) punished?

"A file was sent to the DPP" a couple of weeks back. So they're deciding whether or not to press charges against the police involved now...

article6

Fianna Fáil was one of the most corrupt parties ever, surely, but they rescued us from more than one economic disaster. Even CJ Haughey, for all his wiles and smiles, saved us from Garret Fitzgerald's tax regime and set up the environment for this Celtic Tiger thing. A bad man, but a good leader.

Fine Gael was just as corrupt for the time it was in power, thing is, it wasn't. A lot.

Labour was in it as well... Proinnsias de Russia anyone?

Sinn Féin are just evil, because they are part of a group which also has an unconstitutional paramilitary wing.

The Greens are generally very principled people, but here's the rub. I don't support many of their inward-looking policies such as live exports, which keep farming alive.

Fianna Fáil gets my vote, because for all of its corruption, its centrist policies are the best available for Ireland.



Condom joke... funny. I don't really like this Bertie Ahern man, he's spent too much on this stadium. And if he were to go, it would only be a coincidence that the Taoiseach might be in my own constituency...

Cork

I'd say the IDA and civil servants put the country back on it's feet, not Charles J. Haughey although he'd like to take credit for everything good that happened in Ireland during his 'reign'.

What were these Civil Servants doing during the 1980s?

What did John Bruton doing calling the Peace Process as the "F****** Peace Process"

Is is true that FG are bring out a book about Afrian Americans?

Or are the Blueshirts thinking of making a comeback?

A lot of political partys avoided in Ireland avoided uniforms & salutes.

Still FG try and Claim links to Michael Collins whilst ignoring other esosodes in their history.

While - I agree that they are bad apples in every village in Ireland. I think that no political party is better or worse than another.

Kim Tae-Woo

750 Million Euro in the Red, Wasted

Lennoxschips

FF didn't create the Celtic Tiger, nor did they kill it. The support of the European Union and the 90s boom economics created the Celtic Tiger. The global economic downturn killed it.

What FF did do, was waste the Celtic Tiger. Seven years of prosperity and what have we got to show for it? Ringroads, ringroads and more ringroads. The schools and hospitals are a shambles, and our jobs market is overdependent on US tech firms who are now all heading up sh|t creek. Inflation is spinning out of control in Ireland, because McCreevy chose to ignore sound advice from Wim Duisenburg back in the year 2000. Duisenburg warned that the Celtic Tiger wouldn't last forever, McCreevey gambled that it would and threw Plan B to the wind...

Urban Planning is virtually non-existant in Ireland. Are the suburbs in Ireland pleasant places? No. Fianna Fail has been selling land to private developers for years, allowing them to build row after row of profitable estate housing with no regard for: transport, recreation, local shops, traffic management, safety, proper footpaths... you name it, they've forgotten it. The solution is to build massive drive in shopping malls next to ring roads that were supposedly built to alleviate traffic. What sense does that make? In Europe people are within walking distance of proper amenities, in Ireland we get in our cars and drive on ring roads to get to amenities.

Waste management. Ireland's waste management policy is: Create as much rubbish as possible, and dump it in a hole somewhere. Possibly the only measure introduced has been the 15 euro cent levy on plastic bags. Meanwhile, while other European nations are recycling their milk cartons & drink bottles and introducing rubbish bins with seperate compartments for "green" and "non-green" rubbish, in Ireland everything is still bunged in the one place. Sure, we've introduced wheely bins, but do they have seperate compartments? No. FF introduced them purely bacause they thought they would look cool. Like the LUAS tram. Or the Bertie Bowl.

Ireland is turning into the wild west, with FF at the helm, who have no clue what they are doing.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
I think that no political party is better or worse than another.

Yeah, right:rolleyes:

I'll let someone else explain why no-one will believe you:D

Cork

Sinn Fein?
Fine Gael?
Democratic Left?
They merged with labour?
Do you thaink that FF are bad and these guys are good?

Everything is just so black & white - Who won the election?
Wheres Noonan & Quinn? Who got the mandate?


Albert won lost an election because the media treated him badly.

When FF ran a great campaign - the media are cribbing.

McGinty

Lennoxschips


Here, here I totally agree with everything you said there. Recycling here is a joke, our infrastructure is a joke. The success of the Celtic Tiger is manifold. Between the IDA, the fact that workers were cheap here, the high education and funding from Europe all contributed to the Celtic Tiger. Lennoxschips, I agree that Fianna Fail squandered all the money on ****e, and we will all suffer for it. I remember in 2000 the warning re: our economy. But it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to figure that what goes up must come down. Its a shame that our government didn't make the most of it. Well maybe according to them they did, but not in my opinion, acccording to the people.

Shazbat

Originally posted by article6

Sinn Féin are just evil, because they are part of a group which also has an unconstitutional paramilitary wing.

Spoken like a true unionist.

Cork

I agree that Fianna Fail squandered all the money on ****e, and we will all suffer for it. I remember in 2000 the warning re: our economy. But it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to figure that what goes up must come down.

Well. FF spent tax payers money on Health & Education. It spent money building hospitals and schools, employing doctors, nurses etc.

What would you have spent the money on?
Education?
Health?
Environment?

Sure - there were some wastes of money - but as a whole - money was spent wisely.

The pensions reserve fund - providing for people in years ahead who do not have private pensions. Some of our political partys wanted to raid this fund.

There was the SSIAs but these were opened bt over 1 million people - quiet a popular incentive I'd say.

But - when the government looks upon free third level fees - our middle classes are beginning to get a little nervous.

They cannot be serious..............introducing fees for those who can well afford to pay?

Lennoxschips

From an investors point of view, early 90s Ireland had two things going for it:

1. Low wages. Ireland no longer has this advantage. Imagine if inflation was a car driving downhill. If you apply the brakes then you can descend safely. A Fianna Fail car however has no brakes, they were sold off at the top of the hill to the highest bidder to pay for some go faster stripes and mirror dice. The car is bound to crash. The investors will eventually figure out that it's cheaper to move their entire operation somewhere else than to continue paying ridiculous Irish wages.

2. Relatively clever people (even excluding the ones that had to leave to find jobs in Europe). This was mainly due to the free 3rd level education system we have in Ireland. Even so, not everybody could afford college, but the fact that college in Ireland was free meant that we had a slight percentage advantage over other countries in terms knowledgeable workforce.

Cheap and skilled workers + EU membership, that's what caused the Celtic Tiger economy. 'Cork', we are no longer a cheap country. Make college expensive and we won't be as smart a country anymore! We'll be an expensive, relatively unskilled country. As well as that we might even be rejecting the Nice treaty because our government failed to negotiate the people's wishes at the Nice convention. Companies will avoid us like the plague!

Cork

our government failed to negotiate the people's wishes at the Nice convention.

I 100% agree.

Cheap and skilled workers + EU membership, that's what caused the Celtic Tiger

I 75% disagree. We had these during the 1980s and hundreds of thousands had to leave to find work.

I believe a lot of money was wasted - but it is wasted under all governments. Governments are electrd for 5 years. This seems to be their long term view. They need to take a longer term view on implement planning and employment policies.

A little balance to this.

Most of the 70's and eighties was a Fianna Fáil vs the rest era ala civil war politics.

After 1979 in the case of CJ Haughey , it was power at all costs as he needed to be in that position to satisify his bankers and of course to attract the likes of Ben Dunnes personal donations.
Love of country was definitely there, but only as a by product of Greed.
The genesis of the good Friday agreement was thanks to Haughey,Albert Reynolds and Dick Spring in the 26 counties,Sinn Féin,SDLP and partly Trimbel etc in NI and many many others.
Fianna Fáil here and Martin Mansera(sp) and several behind the scenes in the civil service having a huge role.
John Bruton made very little helpfull contributions.

Regarding the poor state of this country in the 1980's-that was born out of Fianna Fáil's disastrous 1977 general election manifesto, and the rolling stone effect it had on the countries finances.
The purse got so bad that in the following ten years there was more tax paid out of peoples salaries than there was take home pay.
The "them or Us" civil war politics softened in 1987 when FG embarked on the so-called Alan Dukes Tallaght strategy where instead of using every opportunity in the Dáil to cause another general election, FG actually supported a Minority Fianna Fáil Government.
Fianna Fáil had billboards up during the 1987 election saying "health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicaped".
They were saying that FG/LAB were going to do that if they got in.

Of course the next FF minority Government were forced to eat the billboard print and implement Cuts.
Slowly bit by bit over the next ten years politicians began to behave sensibly with the public purse and taxes came down from nearly 70% of peoples pay packets in the mid 1980's to what they are today.People having more money in their pockets and paying sensibly low taxes meant that more educated young people stayed at home which in turn attracted more and more foreign mainly U.S investment here.
More jobs=moretax revenue=less government borrowing=lower taxes again=more spending=higher VAT revenue... etc etc.
Now that was the recipe for the Celtic tiger ie, good management.
And in the meantime lots of money from Europe, to which we were still entitled as a relatively poor country

So I would advocate a little less of the Civil war politics and rather judge the parties on their achievements.


mm

p.s I cannot understand civil war politics anyhow...I was hoping it was dead:)
But on South East Radio, I did hear an old lady shout down the phone to another contributer to a local programme "...where was your Grandfather in 1922???....I'll tell you where he was....he was under the bed with all the other blueshirts..!!":D
Civilwar politics it's so progressive :eek:

Cork

Regarding the poor state of this country in the 1980's-that was born out of Fianna Fáil's disastrous 1977 general election manifesto, and the rolling stone effect it had on the countries finances

The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

John Bruton made very little helpfull contributions

The "****** peace process" remark did wonders & did Enda Kennys recent comments about *******.

Civil War politics has ended. Look at FGs vote at the last election.

My overall point is that there is corruption everywhere in Ireland - Blood scandals, house price rip offs, bad planning, shops overcharging.

It is not confined to one section of our community or one political party.

The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

And more probably.
Although in recent years Fine Gael has drifted away from the right,it could not have succeeded back in the eighties, married to a left of centre party .
Neither could labour for the same reason.
Result : Stagnation with one view in mind, it's either FG? lab or FF in Govt-forget policy or progress.
They came to their senses in 1987.

Civil War politics has ended. Look at FGs vote at the last election.

I disagree with that statement.
The Fianna Fáil core vote has remained basically the same.
It is a cohort which throughout generations votes the same way.
Thats civil war politics.

Mind you during the last election, who could vote for FG or Noonan??
I wouldn't vote for them and that Enda Kenny , I wouldn't be inspired by him either.
mm

Victor

RE: the Bertie Bowl, the Evening Herald ran a front page story about 2 weeks ago and they added up all the money spent already and committments made to help the Stadium proceed: Fees (€19m), State Laboratories (€230m+?), promises to sporting organisations (€100m+). It all added up to something like €490m before a sod is turned. On a stadium that was to cost less than €300 finished.

Who delivered it? CJH's government introduced agreements with the Unions + albert saw what was happening in the Far East.

WTF? To paraphrase "It was demographics, stupid!"

Originally posted by Cork
Albert won lost an election because the media treated him badly.

Run that by me again!

Originally posted by Cork
The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

On the back of a giveaway budget by Haughey (he reduced car tax to £5/year) .... and in economic circumstances that were perpetuated by his cronies and their illegal "banks".

Lennoxschips

I'm for the labour party mainly because they were born out of the workers' unions and not based upon civil war politics. FF and FG are two of a kind, if you ask me... John Bruton is the luckiest man in Ireland, he became leader of the country without winning an election. Dick Spring was the man running the country and getting 9bn pounds off the EU for us.

Cork

On the back of a giveaway budget by Haughey (he reduced car tax to £5/year) .... and in economic circumstances that were perpetuated by his cronies and their illegal "banks".

Did a FG td not have an ansbacker account?
At least CJH did not add 12billion onto the national debt.

I'm for the labour party

Don't mention Democratic Left.

Dick Spring was the man running the country

Is he not involved with Fexco now?
After his stint with Eircom?

This FF/FG/Labour thing is a little boring.

They are bad eggs in every community in Ireland.
They are in every party. No section of our community is free from corruption. I think that no political party in Ireland are free to cast the first stone. Niether are the media. They hounded Albert. A man who talked to Hume & Adams when he was criticised like mad for doing so.

But people have very short memories. Are people prepared to shut down their SSIA accounts for the good of the country? Are they prepared to pay higher taxes for a better health system?

Tax monies over the past number of years were into health, education, pensions & roads. What would ye have not spend the money on.

Please avoid implying they are not bad apples in every party. If you stink your head in the sand. You'll believe it.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Did a FG td not have an ansbacker account?
At least CJH did not add 12billion onto the national debt.

Yes I believe one did.

Originally posted by Cork
They are bad eggs in every community in Ireland. They are in every party. No section of our community is free from corruption. I think that no political party in Ireland are free to cast the first stone.

Yes there are, but there appears to be a preponderance of them in and/or supporting FF.

Originally posted by Cork
If you stink your head in the sand.

WTF? :rolleyes: Are you sleep ddeprived?

Meh

Originally posted by Victor
RE: the Bertie Bowl, the Evening Herald ran a front page story about 2 weeks ago and they added up all the money spent already and committments made to help the Stadium proceed: Fees (€19m), State Laboratories (€230m+?), promises to sporting organisations (€100m+). It all added up to something like €490m before a sod is turned.

As far as I know (open to correction here), the State laboratories were due to be moved anyway because the facilities at Abbotstown were inadequate...Still, the stadium project was a stupendous waste of money, no matter what the exact figures are. People will remember Bertie for it all right, but not for the reasons he'd like...

Cork

Yes there are, but there appears to be a preponderance of them in and/or supporting FF.

What do you base this on?

That a number of former members of FF are before tribunerals. There will probably be members of many partys before such tribunerals before they are finished.

What you seem to be doing is pre-judging the outcomes of these tribunerals. God, only knows - what was happening and the extent it happened.

You are also putting a slur on the Irish electorate which is OTT.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
What do you base this on? That a number of former members of FF are before tribunerals. There will probably be members of many partys before such tribunerals before they are finished.

No I am basing my comments on the draft report from the Flood Tribual.

Originally posted by Cork
You are also putting a slur on the Irish electorate which is OTT.

No, if I am slurring anyone it is the parties involved in brown envelopes (and brown paper bags) that have a substantial overlap with FF politicians, party workers, party members, hangers-on, financial and other donors and the like. While no doubt the larger part of FF is interested in honest politics, the majority of people involved in dishonest politics appear to be associated with FF.

I passed no comment about FF voters or the electorate in general.
.

Cork

I passed no comment about FF voters or the electorate in general.

There are rotten apples in every barrel. We need to look at corruption across every spectrum of soceity and stamp it out.

Corruption is not confined to one political party, age, social class or gender.

By singling out one political party - you are ignoring what went on in other partys.

eg. the ptentail libility of the state if it is shown that the 3nd mobile phone licence was awarded incorrectly.

There is no scale of varying standards of corruption. There is no acceptable limit of corruption.

We need to have a zero tolerance atitude towards it. No metter - where it goes on, It needs to be stamped out.

eg. the ptentail libility of the state if it is shown that the 3nd mobile phone licence was awarded incorrectly.

If Digifones competitors in the 2nd mobile phone licence application successfully sue, there will be a precedent set implying further very costly suits in areas such as planning, radio licences etc.

Blame in both the two largest parties there.
I think Victor is right in saying there has been shown so far to be a larger preponderence of corruption in the Fianna Fáil camp.
But then they are the largest party and therefore statistically should have the largest proportion of bad apples.
No offence meant Cork;)
mm

Cork

I agree with you. I think corruption in this country is widespread. FF were alwlays the party with people with no property. I think what went on - there is no excuse for. I think that FF needs to get back to basics. They are a lot of many good people in FF - but I think that we need to have a zero tolerace atitude to corruption in this country. Corruption has not gone away you know.

spongebob

.......not a syndicate that is devoted to corrupting everything.

as politics is 'the art of the possible', fixes will occur that may be seen as corrupt on a simplistic level but which are actually pragmatic more than anything else. They were simply the best solution possible.

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

CJH added 6Billion to the national debt in one year, and in so doing doubled it. 1981/2


M

mike65

Originally posted by Meh
As far as I know (open to correction here), the State laboratories were due to be moved anyway because the facilities at Abbotstown were inadequate...

Thats correct.

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by Muck
[B

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

CJH added 6Billion to the national debt in one year, and in so doing doubled it. 1981/2


M [/B]

Fg made a mess of our economy in the 1980s. They doubled the national debt in the period from 1982 to 1987. It went from 12 billion to 24 billion. Tousands left the country to find work. Has FG taken responsibility for thyis?


Your thing on CJHis absurd. There were 3 elections in this period. Where did you get this figure? Hopefully not from the back of a Corn Flake box.

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

Another example of responsibility. Michael Lowry/ Denis O Brien connections? ...................never.

I admit there is corruption in public life and institutional corruption in Ireland.

But I think some may still think corruption is confined to some sectors.

FF are unworthy and other political partys should be in Surf ads.

I think - facts do not back this up and like it or not - we'll just have to face up to it.

What ever did happen to the Telenor cheque?

Shazbat

Fianna Fail corruption is akin to a pyramid. It goes all the way down to the bottom in the construction industry (to name but one example) from land developers bribing officials to rezone land to lower down in the pile where architectural and engineering companies are all involved in backhanders and fixing tenders.

There is a major croneyism element in FF and their 'generous' supporters. Why does FF get so many large donations from individuals and companies? There is no such thing as a free lunch.

These individuals and companies with their 'donations' are giving FF money in the hope that they will get something back. You scratch my back etc etc.

I think that large donations would have stopped a long time ago if these donors got nothing in return. It would be naive to think that businessmen give away large sums of money for no personal gain. Businessmen are the greediest money grabbing people (and shrewdest) that you will come across.

It would be interesting to see if these donors donate as much money to charity as they do to political parties (mainly FF). If they did then I would believe that they want nothing in return from FF.

spongebob

Let me restate....not editing the incorrect post.

Jack Lynch and CJH between them increased the national debt by 150% in 4 years 1977-1981 and thats Official

The previous coalition in 1973-1977 had Doubled it.

What was that about the third licence again Cork?


M

Cork

I really don't care for criticisim of either Jack Lynch or Eamonn Dev. Did you ever hear of the Blueshirts in FG history - bunchs of grown men running around in uniform making silly salutes.

But - It is nice of see FG taking political coperate donatios again.

I really admire when they do something on "principle" and then they welch on it.

The previous coalition in 1973-1977 had Doubled it.

Don't fool yourself - FG/Lab added 12 bbillion onto the national debt in less than 5 years.

If there was a crime of economic mis management of the country - they would get a life sentence.

Why does FF get so many large donations from individuals and companies?

Every party takes donations
Biggest party - Biggest Mandate

These individuals and companies with their 'donations' are giving FF money in the hope that they will get something back. You scratch my back etc etc.

would you prefer state funding of political partys?

Fianna Fail corruption is akin to a pyramid

This is a slur. What went of in FG? Why are they back taking political coperate donations? What do you know of Democratic left or Sinn Fein?

spongebob

as is widely known the Blueshirts were there to defend big farmers from Dev(alera) and his Broy Harriers....who were a bunch of gangsters pretending to be revenue special agents.

Then they used to dress up nicely for mass on a Sunday, blue shirts are fairly invisible at night you see.

I personally think that you may be one of those Workers Party supporters the way you go on. Why did you not leave the bit with the fundraising arm and go over to dem left that time?

Do tell us.

M

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
would you prefer state funding of political partys?

Yes. Brian, is that you?