BertiAhern - Should he stay or should he go?

PH01

What do you think of these latest storys that reckon that Bertie's leadership of Fianna Fail is in doubt?

Is this just media (meeja) spin or is there some truth in this story?

Shazbat

I voted no in this poll, because I want him to stay as party leader because he is useless and can only do harm to Fianna Fail, who I don't like.

dahamsta

I voted no in this poll, because I want him to stay as party leader because he is useless and can only do harm to Fianna Fail, who I don't like.

Uh, can I change my vote?

Nah, seriously, he's damaging the country in the process, it's not worth it. Can he take McGreedy Liar with him please?

adam

Cork

Originally posted by Shazbat
I voted no in this poll, because I want him to stay as party leader because he is useless and can only do harm to Fianna Fail, who I don't like.

He won the Election.

Noonan is gone.
Quinn is going.

BERTIE is Taoiseach.

He'll be Taoiseach for the next 5 years.

I think that he needs to stay for the sake of Northern Ireland.

Meh

I'd vote Yes, except who would succeed him as leader? Imagine McCreevy as Taoiseach *shudder*

GoneShootin

i didnt want FF in power in the first place

democracy just doesnt work

Kalina

Bertie needs to go... or start keeping his election promises!
"A lot done, more to do!" What a load of crap!

Chaos-Engine

Thanks to Charlie McGreedy's Budget muddles he will never be Taisoach thank christ!!!

If Bertie stood down tommorrow I could see Micheal Martin becoming the next leader of FF... Now I'm no FF supporter but I would gladly welcome him...

The BIG 3 that run FF are terrible:
Bertie
Cowen
McGreedy

should all go... and hold a general election while they do it just to make the Nice treaty acceptable for its MACH 2 stat..

jd

I never had much time for Ahern, to be honest I think he's a gob****e..
I actually would prefer McGreevey, while I'm quite a distance from him economically, at least you know where you stand with him..
after that Cowen, or Martin...??
I'd think I'd go for Biffo Buffalo..

Cork

Bertie needs to go... or start keeping his election promises!

All parties break election promises. As for the tribunerals - he established them.

Corruption is going on throughiout the country. Look at the Euro rip off at the monent. Talk about daylight robbery.

Bertie has delivered relative peace and prosperty to this country.

But people have pretty short memories - and tend to grab on to the latest tabloid headline.

Shazbat

Originally posted by Cork


All parties break election promises.

Well that makes it ok then, doesn't it.

If Bertie Ahern kicked you in the face would that too be acceptable once Trevor Sargeant and Ruarí Quinn gave you a kick in the forehead?

It should never be acceptable that politicians lie, and the kind of attitude that 'oh well they're all doing it' is practically a thumbs up to lying and can only serve to encourage them. (not that FF need much encouragement)

That attitude is the reason why we have a shower of shady cronies running the country in the first place.

The most amusing blatant lie I heard Bertie tell (this week) was when he claimed to have known nothing about the shady dealings of Ray Burke. Yeah right, how does expect us to believe this???

It just goes to show his lack of respect for the intelligent members of our society when he expects us to believe such clap-trap.

Cork

It should never be acceptable that politicians lie

I think that FF won the election.

The dogs in the street knew about the economy. All you needed was to read the newspapers or walk down Grafon Street.

Yet people saying that they were being mislead.

The Irish people are intelligent and and knew damn well about the economy.

known nothing about the shady dealings of Ray Burke.

Bertie should have known - what it took the Flood Tribuneral 5 years to come up with?

It is about time that we all faced up to the fact that there has been corruption all around us for years. It is nice to point at the Flood report but in every village in Ireland - there is corruption.

All those shops overcharging, nixers, 300000 non resident accounts etc.

Shazbat

Originally posted by Cork


I think that FF won the election.

You only think it?

If poor lickle bertie is so ill informed about the goings on of his party members maybe he should hire some of these knowledgeable 'dogs on the street' as his advisors.

Cork

Albert Reynolds - the man who brought peace to this country lost an election for using the word "CRAP!". Politics is a hard game. The economy was on a downward spiral for months. Matt Cooper & Shane Ross pointed this out.

What Bertie did - was to win an election. Everybody knew about the state of the economy. I few may have not - but I think the Irish are a pretty clued in nation.

When Bertie appointed Burke - Was he criticised in the Dail? Even - with Dail privilage - I don't think that he was.

It is very easy to criticise in hindsight. Bertie delivered the Good Friday Agreement - but eaten bread is soon forgotten.


Those people that voted for Michael Lowry at the last election - do you think that they did not know who they were voting for?

Do you think that people can be decieved so easily?

I think the Irish people are very politically aware.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Bertie delivered the Good Friday Agreement

Are you saying that the political parties in the north had nothing to do with it?

Is "Cork" really a troll version of "Bubbles"?

DMC

I'll abstain from this vote, because in the heat of the moment, just after the Flood report and before the Nice vote, I will have to see what the country decides in the referendum before I can make up my mind on Ahern.

What I mean is these 3 weeks left is going to decide how long Ahern is going to stay in office.

Also, the Irish electorate voted effectively between two men. Noonan and Ahern. And I have to agree with McCreevy on the day after the election that "for the first time the opposition was voted out by the electorate." The choice was made, and we got Ahern again. Don't come running 5 months later crying.... and I agree with Fine Gael and Labour, vote on the treaty itself, not on the FF performance. Your vote should be a protest for or against the Nice treaty, not on what we have thought of the first few months of the new government. Oh no. Any one who wastes their vote as a protest against the government is a fool. I dont mind if you vote for or against the treaty, but I do mind if you use it to show the finger at the government. It sends out clearly the wrong message.

As for the North, don't forget the power of Ahern in negotiations. In the past he has solved industrial disputes, got programmes for government with unions and employers, the GFA etc. The man is a good tactician, but has he laid on one bet too many... Saturday 2 weeks.....

A man to watch here is Noel Dempsey. Remember in 1992, he was one of the 4 TD's who shafted Haughey and got Reynolds in. Now in the last few days, Dempsey has been encouraging the re-introduction of college fees, and according to reports, Ahern and McCreevy are not too happy on this.

If Dempsey gets his way, and fees come back, Ahern will be fine for a while, medium-long term. If fees are not reintroduced..... will he lead the backbenchers in a coup?

Watch this space......

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by DMC
If Dempsey gets his way, and fees come back, Ahern will be fine for a while, medium-long term. If fees are not reintroduced..... will he lead the backbenchers in a coup?

Watch this space......

More likely that FF won't be in government to run us even farther into the ground. Their days are numbered me thinks.

Watch out for another Rainbow or if Labour get the ball rolling perhaps something unique to irish politics... A Red-Green-Lefty gov... ? Who knows??? If only Irish voters would get off their arses and vote for change like the FF posters say... IF only...

DMC

There's not a snowballs chance of another rainbow coalition.

Fine Gael and Labour, the Greens, 14 independents, and the Shinners need to get together, and that only comes up to 77.

Now, Enda Kenny is not going to lead that rag bag. Fine Gael, the Shinners, Jackie Healy-Rea and Joe Higgins in coalition?? Mind boggling!

No, you got FF for 4-5 years yet, they will cling to power and not give it up lightly. If the PD's walk out (which wont happen) FF only need 4 votes from independents if the PD's left... Only time will tell weather or not Bertie will be in charge in 2006....

PH01

I think all this about Bertie Boy losing the leadership of FF is just Media spin.
Bertie will turn this around and will remain on for the next 4 years. Then he'll retire from the job to become the elder statesman. I don't think he'll be pushed out - can't see it happening.

The only thing that might upset this is the muck that will stick. He's taking longer then usual to shake off the Ray Burke story. And his ability to look up every tree in North Dublin is questionable?

I think it is all down to his style of leadership. Bertie isn't one for the big ideas or the big vision. Just look at the BertieBowl to see what a flop that was. What Bertie's strenght is his Chairman skills, which isn't leading from the front but from the back. And the thing is that he is bloody good at it.

Four more years Bertie!

Kim Tae-Woo

He should go!

Cork

Unlike Mr. Quinn & Noonan. Bertie should stay. He got a mandate from the electorate. It is called democracy.

Before the election. We knew about Burke & the Economy.

What has changed?

The Media trying to sell newspapers?

Victor

Originally posted by PH01
Bertie will turn this around and will remain on for the next 4 years. Then he'll retire from the job to become the elder statesman. I don't think he'll be pushed out - can't see it happening.

Hmmm, not sure, no one has ever pulled off 2 full terms in a row (in fact after a full term, the next Dáil is usually under 2-3 years).

Yoda

Originally posted by Cork
It is very easy to criticise in hindsight. Bertie delivered the Good Friday Agreement - but eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Um, that was Albert Reynolds, wasn't it?

dahamsta

Unlike Mr. Quinn & Noonan. Bertie should stay. He got a mandate from the electorate. It is called democracy.

I doubt you'd be saying that if Labour or Fine Gael won the election. Either way, there's absolutely no difference between Quinn, Noonan or Ahern stepping down as party leader. A party leader is a party leader -- Bertie just has more to lose.

Democracy goes both ways. Try running the election again now and see what happens to your precious Fianna Fail.

Um, that was Albert Reynolds, wasn't it?

It was lots of people. It certainly wasn't Bertie Ahern on his own. Cork, you've some poo on your nose there.

adam

Cork

Try running the election again now and see what happens to your precious Fianna Fail.

there is no need to have an election for another 5 years.

NICE was an exception - they did not get the "right result".

Thats why - I will be giving NICE a NO!

But seriously - Everybody knew about the economy before the election.

dahamsta

there is no need to have an election for another 5 years.

I believe a majority would disagree with you quite strenously. Personally, I'm looking forward to 2004.

NICE was an exception - they did not get the "right result".

This is precisely why they shouldn't be running it again. Their protestations of ignorance in the electorate are not only offensive, they're falsehoods. The Irish Government is rerunning Nice because of political pressure, nothing more, nothing less.

Thats why - I will be giving NICE a NO!

Well, I'm still undecided, but surely your beloved Bertie will be most upset withyou?

But seriously - Everybody knew about the economy before the election.

Everybody knew the world economy was in trouble. But it's not about the economy taking a nosedive, it's about Fianna Fail taking their eye off the ball and mismanaging us into a crisis. And not just with Government finances, but with things like comms too.

adam

jd

Originally posted by dahamsta
[Everybody knew the world economy was in trouble. But it's not about the economy taking a nosedive, it's about Fianna Fail taking their eye off the ball and mismanaging us into a crisis. And not just with Government finances, but with things like comms too.

adam [/B]

We were presented with what we were told would be a surplus of approx 150m for this financial year..
We could run into a deficit of 1bn (I'll recheck the figures in the morning)..

We have a Taoiseach who was an accounts Clerk for a dublin hospital claiming to be a qualified accountant, and who misrepresented the extent of his educational qualifications (I'm making an issue of the deceit, not the qualifications).
If I did that, I'd be (rightly) fired (whether I was capable of doing the job or not)
Berties is a hail fellow well met chappie, whose greatest skill is speaking out of each side of his mouth..

Lawnkiller

I've said it before and I'll say it again for those that missed it....

"Maybe we should have an extremely fair system where politicians can get voted in but on the flip side can be also voted out (a la Big Brother, etc.). It would make them think twice before painting a rosey picture on a pile of sh1te(a.k.a. not telling the entire truth properly - I'm trying really hard to not say 'lying' cos everybody knows that politicians don't lie....)."

"Lots done - more to do..." it has a very "na-na-na-na-na" sound to it. :rolleyes:

I don't think the blind faith of party people will get us out of this one batman...

Cork

Originally posted by jd

We have a Taoiseach who was an accounts Clerk for a dublin hospital claiming to be a qualified accountant, and who misrepresented the extent of his educational qualifications (I'm making an issue of the deceit, not the qualifications).
If I did that, I'd be (rightly) fired (whether I was capable of doing the job or not)
Berties is a hail fellow well met chappie, whose greatest skill is speaking out of each side of his mouth..

What is wrong with being an accounts Clerk with a Dublin Hospital?

I tought it was only FG snobs who had problems with that?
Maybe he was born into the wrong family?
Maybe our Taoiseach should come from a well healed Dublin 4 family?
Albert Reynolds - He was country & Western........wasn't he?
John Bruton was a country gent from Meath.

Berties qualifications - use your google search engine:

"CIPFA at work: CIPFA's coverage of management and strategic skills means that newly-qualified members reach senior positions at a young age. Bertie Ahern, the Irish prime minister, is a member of CIPFA, and there are CIPFA -qualified partners in all the big five accountancy firms"


I think that before facts are very important. Try and base postings on facts.

dahamsta

Try and base postings on facts.

Try and read jd's whole post.

adam

jd

Originally posted by Cork
What is wrong with being an accounts Clerk with a Dublin Hospital?

I tought it was only FG snobs who had problems with that?
Maybe he was born into the wrong family?
Maybe our Taoiseach should come from a well healed Dublin 4 family?
Albert Reynolds - He was country & Western........wasn't he?
John Bruton was a country gent from Meath.

Berties qualifications - use your google search engine:

"CIPFA at work: CIPFA's coverage of management and strategic skills means that newly-qualified members reach senior positions at a young age. Bertie Ahern, the Irish prime minister, is a member of CIPFA, and there are CIPFA -qualified partners in all the big five accountancy firms"


I think that before facts are very important. Try and base postings on facts.

I have no problem with anybody being an accounts clerk anywhere...he never worked there as an accountant..
look at his cv -he claims to have been educated at UCD and Rathmineds college of Commerce..
neither have a record of Ahern being an enrolled student..

PH01

Originally posted by Victor
Hmmm, not sure, no one has ever pulled off 2 full terms in a row (in fact after a full term, the next Dáil is usually under 2-3 years).

Well it's not really a long shot. Bertie's leadership of FF is not in trouble, though the cracks are showing, he'll go on to the next election in 4+ years. If I was a potential leader of FF I wouldn't want to become leader now, not when there is so much flak around. I'd prefer to wait until after the next election, which is going to be tough.
If Bertie is ousted now, his replacement wouldn't last long - certainly not after the next election. Bertie is still a very strong leader and he has still to much strenght to be toppled this soon.

The only thing that will hasten a general election soon is if there is a falling out of this coalition. Yes the PD might pull the plug but it won't be easy when there is quite a number of FF friendly independants who are still sweet on Bertie to fill the gap.

No, this Government is going the full term and 4 more years for Bertie.