My Opinion about people on these boards.

Johnny 5

I've never been one to voice my opinions on these boards, instead I quietly viewed the opinions of others. For some, no one will give a second glance at this post.

Having read posts on a United Ireland, Sinn Fein, IRA, David Trimble, Irish Patriotism throughout these boards over the past number of months, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of people on these boards are

A. Self Obsessed
B. Economically Swayed
C. Greedy
D. VERY Unpatriotic
E. Pro-British
F. Ungrateful

Self obsessed due to your attitudes on a United Ireland. I find in such posts many would despise this outcome, and the only reason I can find being it would be a possible threat to your well-being and economic stature. That brings me on to point B, many of you are economically swayed, meaning 'I don't give two ****s about anyone else, as long as I have my money'. Look at it this way folks, there is more to life than money and possessions. Greedy because your obviously self obssessed. I could go on about being unpatriotic for ages, but i'll try and wrap it up into a summary. 'The irish free state was founded just over 80 years ago, your government actively campaigned for a UI for 40 years after that, then suddenly EUROPE hit, and its about money, toss NI, its all me looking after me.Your FF government let slip the desire for a UI and so did many of the middle class people. What strike as odd though, is that up until the late sixties people wanted a UI, thats what, just FORTY year ago, and u let slip your patriotic values. I have read threads on here where people are too embarassed to display the tricolour 24/7 due to the fact that they believe patriotism is a thing of the past, thats sickening, think as to what Mick Collins or Padraig Pearse would say if they heard that. To be honest, you'd have much better luck getting one of you to hoist the Union jack from your windows. Bertie Ahern might aswell be the Secretary of State for Ireland of the British government OBE! You do everything to PLEASE the British. Take Sellafield for example, a quiet word or two in the ear of Tony, yea Bertie, thanks that will do the job, what will you tell the 100k or so dead when Sellafield finally does go up. Yea so he has ordered the Navy and Air Corps to monitor the shipment, so what! The Navy and Air Corps could do feck all when it comes to defending our waters. Irish Airspace is clogged with US and UK jets and helis doing military training, there is neutrality. The next axis of evil in the world, US and British Ireland. Also it seems David Trimble can do no wrong amongst the faithful on this board, jesus christ hes trying to bring down the institutions, he refuses to condemn many loyalist attacks on catholics. Statistics show loyalists are accountable for upto 80% of all attacks in the past 2 years, including 80% of all murders. What about last night when ****e was smeared all over the altar in West Belfast by loyalists who also attacked a coffin lying in wake in the chapel. Not a word. What astounds me the most though, is some posts I have found calling Mick Collins and Padraig Pearse and the heros of 16 terrorists. They founded your state and you criticize them for it??

On that note I'll sign off noting that this post will probably bring out the hoards of people I have just described in the above paragraph trying to defend themselves. Thats OK, go right ahead, but I ask: IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE THAT CAN AGREE WITH ME?

Regards,
Eamonn

Turnip

It's ludicrous that the loyalists - a totally anti-democratic bunch of bastards - were able to have a little statelet carved out for themselves but if you read about the war of independence and the treaty it's abundantly clear that Britain would have launched a full scale invasion of Ireland had Collins not signed. There's no way we would have been able to stand up to that. Since then, the first priority in NI was ensuring that the catholics got euqal housing jobs and education opportunities. I'd vote for a UI if there was an all Ireland referendum. I'd guess that in a few years loyalism and protestantism will start to lose its popularity and a desire for a united Ireland based on common economic and cultural grounds will begin to assert itself.

Nothing wrong with being a bit greedy or financially successful by the way. We can't all be bleeding heart pseudo socialist class warriors.

Johnny 5

Point taken Turnip. I don't know whether my desire for a UI is hazing my opinion a bit here, but I know the best time of my life would be when i'm up at the pub, standing with a bunch of mates all crowded around the widescreen watching the results of the vote being read out. Watching Dr.Reid or whoever tell us that there will be a British withdrawl. Then going home that night and suddenly realising that that was the most important day of my life and tomorrow I will wake up feeling more complete.

Turnip

It'll be interesting to see what happens when there is a nationalist majority in the north soon all right. My guess is that the loyalists will start threatening us with terrorism if there is an overwhelming desire on both sides of the border for a UI. I also guess that some people down here will want to give in to these threats.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Biffa Bacon

The irish free state was founded just over 80 years ago, your government actively campaigned for a UI for 40 years after that…

Did they really? I was under the impression that they did fùck all to achieve a united Ireland.

Take Sellafield for example, a quiet word or two in the ear of Tony, yea Bertie, thanks that will do the job, what will you tell the 100k or so dead when Sellafield finally does go up.

What would you have him do?

Irish Airspace is clogged with US and UK jets and helis doing military training, there is neutrality.

Well “clogged” is a bit of an exaggeration, but it is correct that it’s a violation of neutrality. What annoys me though is not that neutrality is being violated, which is a good thing, but that the government haven’t the balls to either stand up and admit it or else forbid military exercises over our airspace.

Also it seems David Trimble can do no wrong amongst the faithful on this board, jesus christ hes trying to bring down the institutions…

No he’s not, he’s trying to either get Sinn Féin to breaks its links with the IRA or else to have them removed from the executive, both of which are perfectly reasonable objectives.

…he refuses to condemn many loyalist attacks on catholics.

Such as?

What about last night when ****e was smeared all over the altar in West Belfast by loyalists who also attacked a coffin lying in wake in the chapel. Not a word.

Are you saying he refused to condemn it, or just that he has not yet commented on it?

DadaKopf

Many of us, think, have renounced any aspirations to a united Ireland is because of the political situation. The violence in Northern Ireland can be partly attributed to the dual claim over the territory and while this may be fine for us down here, it hasn't gotten the people of Northern Ireland anywhere.

It was only when plans were agreed for Ireland to renounce her claim to the six counties and the the UK to endorse the policy of devolution that the political situation improved. This political situation is still fraught with huge difficulties but the terrorist war has greatly decreased, laws have changed and people's quality of life is improving. Communities are coming together.

You should ask yourself: would this have happened if Ireland and Britain didn't renounce their claim to Northern Ireland? I don't think it would. Let them rule themselves, let them decide when the time is right.

Johnny 5: could you tell me in clear, convincing terms why a united Ireland is so important to us all and not just you?

Johnny 5

An independant Northern Ireland would be the worst case scenario, just think people, it would be the 70's all over again, Unionist superiority, a dictatorship. The British currently keep the unionists in check, if they had their way we'd be living like we did back in the 70's. That's a fact. To be honest, I'd rather be living in a british country than living in Unionist NI. If you know anything about the UFF, you'll know their main principle is not that of keeping British control over the six counties but creating an independant country, an ideal shared by no-one in the republican/nationalist population in the North.

As for my idea as to why a UI is so important, well it comes down to History and political desire. We all know that the idea in 1916 was to establish a 32-county republic, but instead Collins settled for the 26 county irish free state. You just can't leave six counties to live with the unionist persecution because the majority are 'alright'. The list of British attrocities/collusion continues forever, and people up here consider themselves 100% irish, the tricolour is their national flag, the soldiers song, their anthem. You try and tell them that a UI is a bad idea. Yea a UI is a bad idea for loyalists and unionists, fact remains Northern Ireland is an illegal statelet created on the foundation of a dictatorship. I suppose one could argue it all comes down to patriotism and the centuries of uprisings against the English. The O'Neills of Antrim for example, the fiercest of all groupings to contest English Rule. Listen people we just CANT forget the ideals of people before us, things dont change that much in 40 years. Our society today holds no values in that area and it is a sad state of affairs. Soon the majority of people in the North will be catholic and will aspire for the dream. We have the same culture, we play Hurling, we talk Irish and more, yet the two countries remain divided, one 'free', the other 'occupied under foreign rule' which will be democratically unwanted.

To Biffa Bacon, if you read your constitution you'll see that the sixcounties where conceived to be part of the republic up until say 49, when enthusiam weakened. As for Sellafield, I'd rather have him demand it shut, refuse to negotiate and settle for no less than a total cessation, if not, gather an international alliance for such and take Britain to court and if push comes to shove, sever democratic links. (its harsh I know). You are blind if you don't see what Trimble is doing. EVERYONE knows that if Sinn Fein did sever ALL LINKS with the IRA but still aspired for the republic, Trimble would find another spanner to throw in the works to hold up the institutions, hoestly, read the newspapers, people say the same things as I do, TV Presenters have made jokes about it because it IS THAT obvious. It's you kind of attitude that I hate, that I described in my first post, that he can do no wrong. As for refusing to condemn attacks, about a month ago in the Irish News, the front page had a full length article on this matter stating facts. If you read it you'd understand. And finally, maybe you are right about me not giving Trimble time to condemn the incident in Andersonstown, but is a 'that was a dreadful thing to do' really cut it these days?

Regards etc,
Eamonn

gandalf

Johnny 5 welcome to the politics board.

I think you have missed the point most of us here would love to see a UI however we recognise that in reality it is not a practical solution until the people in NI sort out their own differences.

I am 32yrs old, for all that time all I have seen from Northern Ireland is grief and strife. In my years I have seen a great change down here in the South, Ireland has improved in many ways but also lost some of its soul from the changes. It is human nature to want the best for yourself and the others close to you so therefore we are economically swayed.

I take offense at your unpatriotic stance. There is very little that I have seen on this board to suggest that people are unpatriotic. I actually don't remember anyone posting that they would be ashamed to have the tricolour flying outside their home (then again I could have missed that) and if someone did have that sentiment they would be in a minority.

I think your problem is the fact that most of us here in the South don't say "ba$tards" every time someone mentions England or the British, the basic fact is we don't have any hatred towards them and we get on well with them because they are our nearest neighbour and speak the same language.

As regards Sellifield I agree not enough is been done. But we need a government with balls and the current crowd are acting up like they've all been castrated.

As regards loyalist terrorists I think it is becoming patently clear that they need to be dealt with in a much stronger fashion by the authorities in NI. If that doesn't happen then there Friday agreement can be relabeled Kleenex and handed out the masses so it can be used properly. David Trimble again I haven't seen that many posts about him on the board and I don't remember him been held up as anyones hero but imho he is a bumbling fool.

As regards Michael Collins & Padraig Pearse and all that died in 1916 I hold those men in the highest of regard. They fought for something like soldiers and didn't shoot taxi-men, bomb school girls and other so-called "legitimate targets" in the back as the so-called "freedom fighters" of today have.

Basically there will not be a united Ireland until the people up there sort out their differences. Whats the other alternative have the South invade the North Whats your solution Johnny 5 ??

Shinji

So, in simple terms, this is a lengthy, badly formatted and unpunctuated rant about the fact that we're not all rabid republicans, yeah? I'm amazed that you managed to get the whole way through that post without frothing at the mouth and shouting "WEST BRITS!"... Actually, perhaps you did, but it was buried in the rest of the unintelligible rubbish.

A. Self Obsessed
B. Economically Swayed
C. Greedy

Yeah, you're right, god dammit. I'm self obsessed in that I don't think it's my problem that some people in the corner of my country want to shoot each other over something that means nothing to me or the majority of my generation.

You're right about being economically swayed, too! I'm proud of the economic achievements of the irish people - and yes, I recognise the role played in that by EU handouts but that's not all there was to it. I don't want those achievements ruined by the integration of a bunch of foreign nationals who spent the time while we and our parents were building a nation hitting each other with sticks and blowing up our nearest neighbour.

Does that make me greedy? Maybe. Or maybe it makes me a realist.

D. VERY Unpatriotic
E. Pro-British
F. Ungrateful

Now, you see, here we're going to have to disagree I'm afraid.

I am intensely proud of my nation and my nationality. Sadly for you, however, that doesn't make me into a rabid republican who'll scream wolfe tones songs from the top of Big Ben until it annoys the British into handing back Northern Ireland. I don't WANT the north integrated into my country. I don't WANT a community that thrives on hatred and crime to become part of the nation that's been built over the past fifty years. Sod off and sort out your differences, stop shooting each other and then we'll talk.

Am I pro-British? Well, yes. I disagree with some of their foreign policy but in general they're decent people and it's a good country to live in. The British people have shown me - as an Irish national living in their country - nothing but politeness and courtesy. You can shove your antiquated anti-British sentiment right up your arsé, along with your blood-soaked history books.

Am I /ungrateful/ though? No. I appreciate right to the core of my being the opportunities and possibilities that have been laid in front of me, as a young Irish person, by the sacrifices of generations past. Yeah, Michael Collins was a terrorist - but that doesn't stop him being a hero.

Do you want to know what TRUE ungratefulness is? It's squandering those opportunities and freedoms which were bought for us with the blood of our ancestors by devoting ourselves to pointless hatreds and battles over inconsequential things.

I wonder how long it'll take the North to come to terms with the fact that the South doesn't want it any more than the British do....

Johnny 5

Don't get me wrong, I am neither a militant or support military means. I support fully democratic means and when the time comes when there is a majority of catholics in the North, then the British and Irish governments must publish a green paper detailing the process of which a UI will come about. The process should be phased lasting probably about 2 years. A gradual withdrawl. Before this time the Irish Army would need to have been built up, reserves called in etc and the Air Corps built up to quell disturbances. One may aruge that what would happen if the Protestants came to majority, truth is nothing could legally happen as NI would be no more, Protestants would be but 20% of the population. It would be better financially and politcally for unionists to accept a UI in these terms. But unlike many of the southerners they are patriotic.

To Shinji, I find it offensive your stance on republicanism. It is your type that I describe. Who have no feeling for the North, but again that is your opinion, and I respect it. I never once mentioned that we should all be Wolfe Tones singing militant republicans, not once, on the contrary. You've taken my words and twisted them. I also find your comments on the North being pointless and nothing more than a squabble. To many it means alot and is/will be an integral part of a 32-county republic. Your right about one thing though your generation has forgotten alot.

mike65

Good rant Shinji!

Keep it up, the lad's plainly confused. Norn Iron is only
wanted by a cranky few as things stand, of course if they
were'nt gun-toting, racketering bigots...

Mike.

Oops, maybe Jonnys more reasonable than I thought, (damnit don't you just hate it when you post a moment too late?)

Turnip

Important question to consider is whether the island would be better off in economic terms if it was united and operated as a cohesive block in an increasingly globalised world.

Broadly speaking, the problem with the unionists is that far too many of them are monarchists and old fashioned religious bigots whereas we, north and south, are democrats (IRA excepted) who are mature enough to tolerate greater religious and political differences right across society.

potlatch

I didn't think Shinji's post was helpful. In fact, I found it more like a random assembly of words that amounted to a limpid insult rather than any kind of real contribution to the topic. Most of the time he was rhyming off random, unfounded 'facts'. It was only at the end, after wading through his sludge that he actually made a point.

Do you want to know what TRUE ungratefulness is? It's squandering those opportunities and freedoms which were bought for us with the blood of our ancestors by devoting ourselves to pointless hatreds and battles over inconsequential things.

If we're as much part of the Northern Irish political landscape as the British, it makes more sense to cooperate and find the right formula to bring peace up there first before any selfish discussion of land 'rights' are claimed again.

Boston

I’d like to be the first to apologist. I’m sorry for wanting an education, I’m sorry my people and my forefathers who fought and died so that I could grow up in an Ireland where I had a choice, I’m sorry for wanting a decent job and money in my back pocket, I’m sorry I want more for my children, when they come along, then a doll queue or boat to England. I’m sorry that I don’t want to have had 20 jobs by the time im thirty and looking for any work any where like my father spent his yought. I grew up in one of the most deprived kips of Dublin centre city; we had nothing in the days gone by that you so eloquently pine for. 1960, though thank Christ neither me or my brother saw it, was terrible in Ireland, right up to 1990 infact, No job, no money, no hope. The EU changed all that, as did better relations with Britain, and most of all I’m sorry but id never risk any of what we’ve gained for a United Ireland, nor to prove some feeble point to Britain about nuclear fuel. We are what we are and you can either except that and be happy in it or you can live in misery.

Now I’m not going to be aggressive with you like some have, because you haven’t hit a nerve. It’s easy to say people should be willing to give up this that or the other, and call people greedy or self obsessed when they won’t, but its not something we believe it, its your cause it was never mine, so why should I give up what I have for something you, not I, want? The answer is I shouldn’t. Call me unpatriotic if you want, but I love my country as it is, and I’m not the one getting all pissed off that it isn’t something else. I am grateful, grateful for what I have and what I intend to keep.

One last point, economically a united Ireland would benefit us hugely. If It wasn’t for the tiny little issue of continued violence. No multinationals are going to set up in a country with terrorists bombing things up and men running around with guns killing random people, the situation is far from stable up there and to suggest a union before such a time is madness.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Typedef

Originally posted by gandalf
As regards Michael Collins & Padraig Pearse and all that died in 1916 I hold those men in the highest of regard. They fought for something like soldiers

Romantic Irelands dead and
gone, its with O’Leary in the grave.

This country owes so much to Pearse and the rest of the guys who quite delibrately went out to get killed and become martyrs for the cause of an Irish Republic.

They literally gave up their lives quite delibrately for this country, and that was more than brave or noble, it was more than patriotism too and at the time the rebels were hated by the Irish and really it was only the executions that turned the tide of public opinion, exactly as Pearse and the rest had planed.

dathi1

No he’s not, he’s trying to either get Sinn Féin to breaks its links with the IRA or else to have them removed from the executive, both of which are perfectly reasonable objectives.

biffa.......now come on!













www.no2nice.org

Shinji

One may aruge that what would happen if the Protestants came to majority, truth is nothing could legally happen as NI would be no more, Protestants would be but 20% of the population.

What kind of misguided, stupid argument is that? Sod the people who make up about 50% of the area we're talking about, since they're not a majority of the island as a whole?

You don't GET IT. Northern Ireland has been seperated from the south for EIGHTY YEARS. That's enough time for two generations to pass! There are people whose grandparents cannot remember a time before the border existed!

What you are suggesting is downright disgusting - especially coming from someone who claims to be a republican, and therefore should know full well what "gerrymandering" is. In case you've forgotten, it's rigging the boundaries of the electoral regions to make sure you win - and what you're proposing is exactly that, on an even grander scale than the unionists could ever have dreamed of.

when the time comes when there is a majority of catholics in the North, then the British and Irish governments must publish a green paper detailing the process of which a UI will come about.

You assume once again that people in the south of Ireland want a damn thing to do with northern Ireland. I think you'd be amazed just how many people - who may even now sigh about how nice a 32 county republic would be - would vote against it once they got into a ballot box.

Sod a majority of catholics. Until such time as you have a significant majority who wish to be part of Ireland, and a DEFINITE, LASTING PEACE - which you sure as bloody hell don't have now - there's going to be massive opposition to any move towards a united Ireland from the south.

But unlike many of the southerners they are patriotic.

People in the south are plenty patriotic - about their own country. It's asking a bit much for them to be patriotic about someone else's too.

Your right about one thing though your generation has forgotten alot.

My generation has forgotten nothing. We haven't forgotten the blood that was spilt for the freedom of Ireland. That doesn't mean we somehow become irrational and misty-eyed over the North. Just because we can see perfectly well that the North is a mess, an economic black hole packed with hatred and blind stupidity, which has spent the past thirty years biting the hand that fed it in the most unpleasant way possible, doesn't mean we've forgotten our history.

Who have no feeling for the North

18 years in the border counties travelling up there and seeing what an unpleasant shíthole it is every few weeks will do that to a man.

Ever wonder why the highest concentration of armchair nationalists who bleat about 32 county republics is in Cork and Kerry?

It's because they've never BEEN to the North.

Turnip

Originally posted by Shinji


What kind of misguided, stupid argument is that? Sod the people who make up about 50% of the area we're talking about, since they're not a majority of the island as a whole?

So every minority on the island is entitled to a mini statelet is that it?

The question of a UI is years down the road by which time I expect the current religious and cultural divisions will have faded. The thing is, even if a significant number of protestants turned out to be in favour of a UI, there would still be enough of the old abhorrent bigoted scum to cause some trouble. We should prepare for all eventualities.

Shinji

by which time I expect the current religious and cultural divisions will have faded

Show me a single god damned shred of evidence that this is happening. Go on.

And by "shred", I mean something that stacks up against the spectacle of children being threatened and jeered and stoned as they walk to school in Belfast.

That wouldn't have happened ten years ago, or twenty, or thirty. It wouldn't have happened forty or fifty years ago when my mother was growing up in a fairly evenly divided area of North Armagh. Which says to me that things are getting a whole lot worse, not a whole lot better.

I hope that the North sorts itself out, I really do. I just don't believe that it will, not for several generations. Stupid, ignorant people on both sides of the divide have spent enough time indoctrinating their children in the ways of hatred to make sure that it's impossible.

Typedef

In fairness the only alternative to the current powersharing setup, where powsharing is a euphamism for 'joint-authority', that doesn't entail another long and protracted war is a complete and total divide of the two communities such that the Republic would encompass 9(x)% of the current 'Nationalist' areas and the UK 9(x)% of the 'Unionist' areas.

The thought that 'somehow' the Unionists would be coerced into a 32 county Republic would make a Republican no better than the likes of General Maxwell or Bloody Balfour.

The problem with the North was that the border was drawn such that the State created would be 'economically viable' and large Nationalist areas were deemed to be necessary to make this state 'economically viable'. Now neither side has what it wants, apart from a peace of a kind and that is what is really important in the final analysis.

Turnip

Originally posted by Typedef
The thought that 'somehow' the Unionists would be coerced into a 32 county Republic would make a Republican no better than the likes of General Maxwell or Bloody Balfour.

In a 32 county republic loyalists would have enough clout to hold the balance of power. They'd be likely to hold government posts. I'd take a FF/PD/Unionist govt against a FG/SDLP/SF/Lab/etc one any day.

Shinji all the current trouble in the north is confined to a tiny number of working class areas. Every city has its scum that are too stupid or lazy to work to solve their problems. NI is no exception. In 10 or 20 years time when secular state schools become the norm children will be taken out of the indoctrinating loop of endless blame and recrimination.

The Corinthian

Johnny 5, there's a fine line between idealism and foolishness and in the case of patriotic idealism this ‘foolishness’ has been the cause of countless wars and hundreds of millions of lives in the last two centuries.

I’m both an Irishman and a foreigner, both by upbringing and by blood. If nothing else, it does allow me to view the question of a united Ireland with the dispassionate eye of an outsider while retaining the understanding and empathy of a native.

Northern Ireland and the Republic/Free State have been separate for a long time. As such very separate cultures have developed resulting in the practical reality that Northern Catholics may well have more in common with their protestant brethren than with us southerners. Indeed, there’s even a question mark over whether a united Ireland is now even the goal of northern nationalists or that deep down they would, understandably, prefer to be ruled from Belfast rather than either London or Dublin.

Also, one could hardly blame protestant fears of Rome Rule from the time of partition; we are still extricating ourselves from our “priest ridden” culture that helped decimate the protestant population in the south and even had a hand in writing our constitution. This is not an apology for loyalist behaviour in the north, but it is important to realise that the original causes of the suspicion that exist in that community are largely our fault.

In a similar fashion what you would perceive as pro-British is almost overcompensation for anti-British sentiment in the past or even today. They are our neighbours and we share many similarities with them, for good or ill. It has been my observation that anti-British sentiment has been more about finding a scapegoat for our own inadequacies - all our problems are naturally down to ‘800 years of oppression’ and not our own incompetence, after all. Ironically, more and more, the Church has become the new scapegoat, but that’s the subject of another thread, methinks. Again, I’ve no interest in acting as an apologist, but to view the matter from a dispassionate angle.

As for your accusations of greed and self-interest, no one is going to argue with you. But it’s hardly new; I’m told my Irish great grandfather complained bitterly at the disruption caused by the 1916 rising, and how it made work that day almost impossible. So no change there.

However, none of this proves to me that Ireland should not be reunited, but it does prove to me that the question is a little more complex than a simple one of patriotism. Your argument for reunification - of history and political desire, smacks too much of jingoism. It is this passionate viewpoint that would think little of who will be left to rebuild should rash patriots sow our fields with salt in the name of this history and political desire.

BJJ

Great Post Johnny5!

Originally posted by Johnny 5


A. Self Obsessed
B. Economically Swayed
C. Greedy
D. VERY Unpatriotic
E. Pro-British
F. Ungrateful

That describes Mike65 & Shinji Perfectly.

DeVore

God I cant wait until its decided by democratic vote. It will slowly sink in that the side with the highest promiscuity will control the situation LOL.

Can you imagine the placards: "Fnck for your country!" and "Unionists do it in the Jacks (Union Jacks!)"

The concept of boundaries, collections of people, countries, borders etc causes so much war, anger, strife etc.

Also, this romanticism of the "Struggle" and the civil war... let me tell you as someone who was born in the North during the 70's that its far from romantic. Its like those Scifi films where one race has yet to achieve sufficent intelligence to resolve their differences in any rational way. As shinji has pointed out there are still bonehead elements on both sides who are more militant then ever.

DeV.

Meh

If patriotism involves blowing up children, then I'm proud to be unpatriotic.

mike65

Originally posted by BJJ
Great Post Johnny5!
quote:

A. Self Obsessed
B. Economically Swayed
C. Greedy
D. VERY Unpatriotic
E. Pro-British
F. Ungrateful

That describes Mike65 & Shinji Perfectly.

The most of the above character traits decribe the great majority to some degree or other but for republicans the majority don't enter into the equation.

Patriotism is about being proud of ones countires achievments you know economic success fair priced flat-rate internet access not blowing up ppl you disagree with.

Mike.

Johnny 5

What kind of misguided, stupid argument is that? Sod the people who make up about 50% of the area we're talking about, since they're not a majority of the island as a whole?

You don't GET IT. Northern Ireland has been seperated from the south for EIGHTY YEARS. That's enough time for two generations to pass! There are people whose grandparents cannot remember a time before the border existed!

There you go again Shinji, and twisting my words, why are you doing that? What you never quoted was what I said immediately after that sentence :

It would be better financially and politcally for unionists to accept a UI in these terms.

Now to me, that gets me off the hook of your allegations, I stated clearly here that Unionists would be better off in a UI because of their 20% political power. I never said anything about segregating them, you said that.

What I find most problematic though is that your sitting down there, in Dublin or whereever, sipping a cup of tea, looking out the window toward the tricolour a top the GPO (or whereever, dont be getting hung up on geographics), see where you live, the job has been done, its finished, you have your freedom. now what you should do is cast your mind back to the history classes in college and remember what like was like pre-26 county Ireland. Wasn't a pretty picture was it? Well that is what is like up here and thats what the feeling is. the feeling is pre-1916. The English are STILL occupying.

You talk to me about gerrymandering, I didn't signify anything that represented that awful practice.

And to the rest who mentioned Holy Cross, your displaying it as the work of republicans. I Know in one of my previous posts I said Protestants where patriotic, but I did not mean violence. I meant they have strong opinions. I still believe Northerners and Protestants are a hell of alot more patriotic that southerners.

Dual Rule, now theres a clean cut idea. That is the ideal scenario.

Enough ammo there Shinji?

Johnny 5

Another thing, your right to whoever said that it was getting worse. Sectarianism was at least confined to the paramilitaries during the war, but now you can't even get the Irish News from a protestant shop without being set upon outside, and thats the truth.

But we have to combat these by convincing Unionists they'd be better off economically and politcially in a UI. (shrugs)

Shazbat

I agree with you 100% but you are wasting your breath arguing with most of the peolpe on this site as they are happy to aquire their opinions from the indo and other such pro british newspapers.

On a similar note, the amount of people who buy the Sun in this country amazes me too, it is such an anti irish rag. Pure racism about the irish is often to be found within its twisted pages yet it is still very popular. It just goes to show the kind of gob****es that live in this country.

Meh

Originally posted by Shazbat
On a similar note, the amount of people who buy the Sun in this country amazes me too, it is such an anti irish rag.

At least we agree on something. The Sun isn't a newspaper; it's a comic book for the semi-literate.

pencil

Holy Cow, this thread has amazed me!

Johnny 5, the year is 2002 - get with the program.

The strife & aspirations of our forefathers are there to guide us, but not necessarily as a strict set of ideals and rules which we must adhere too.

Times change and we are entitled to reassess their beliefs & convictions in our time, without being accused of being Self Obsessed, Economically Swayed, Greedy, VERY Unpatriotic, Pro-British or Ungrateful.

Affiliation to One God or another, or one side of a line on a map or another, is the cause of most of the worlds troubles.

The people of the north need to sort themselves out & learn to live in peace with each other before they start thinking about joining other peoples.

PHB

What I find most problematic though is that your sitting down there, in Dublin or whereever, sipping a cup of tea, looking out the window toward the tricolour a top the GPO (or whereever, dont be getting hung up on geographics), see where you live, the job has been done, its finished, you have your freedom. now what you should do is cast your mind back to the history classes in college and remember what like was like pre-26 county Ireland. Wasn't a pretty picture was it? Well that is what is like up here and thats what the feeling is. the feeling is pre-1916. The English are STILL occupying.

The english are not occupying, the english are living there.
Get this into your single minded short sighted head.

The english live there too, its there home and its been there for a good 300 years.
I understand it was taken land but now thats not the case anymore.
We don't have a landlord class so stop acting like the landlords are controlling the peasants.

The feeling in the north isn't pre 1916, unless all the Catholics in the north want HR and couldnt give a **** about a military solution.

I'm patriotic, I'd gladly die for my country if it meant preserving the ideal of peace and prosperity in my land.
I'm sorry if I don't include the North in this country.

My ireland and the ireland I have always known it to be is a 26 county state.

If the 6 counties in the north wish to join the South I would welcome them with open arms.
When I say the 6 counties in the north I mean the Catholics and Prodestants who have agreed to stop living in the stone age and come to realisation that Violence never solves problems, its just brings them to an unfinished solution.

You claim that people are

Self Obsessed - I'm not self obsessed just because I don't agree with you, nor is anyone else, yet that is how they treat them.

Economically Swayed - Everyone is economically swayed so don't act like you are high and mighty on you're money is the root of all evil horse.

Greedy - Of course I'm greedy, you are greedy too. You want the solution to the northern problem that you like, you aren't willing to comprimise, you want what you want, you don't think thats greedy?

VERY Unpatriotic - I am patriotic, just because I dont see my country the same was as you do, then you'll just have to get over it.

Pro-British - Sorry if I think you're an ignorant idiot if I dont shout "****ING BRITS" every time I see them. I dont agree with everything that the british government butt I certainly rather them over some of the so calls patriotic men in the north

Ungrateful - Sorry but I have the upmost respect for all people who fought for the freedom of our country with humane means, and for those who didn't, my respect for them is lessened.

I'll just go back to sipping away at my tea...

Meh

Originally posted by PHB
The english are not occupying, the english are living there.
Get this into your single minded short sighted head.

The english live there too, its there home and its been there for a good 300 years.

Actually, the unionists in Northern Ireland are of Scottish descent.

Biffa Bacon

To Biffa Bacon, if you read your constitution you'll see that the sixcounties where conceived to be part of the republic up until say 49, when enthusiam weakened.

Articles 2 and 3 remained in the constitution until 98 when they were changed as a result of the Belfast Agreement. What happened in 49 was that Ireland left the Commonwealth and became a republic. The fact remains though that no government, political party, paramilitary group or any other organization anywhere in Ireland has ever tried to achieve a united Ireland using tactics that might reasonably have been expected to be successful.

EVERYONE knows that if Sinn Fein did sever ALL LINKS with the IRA but still aspired for the republic, Trimble would find another spanner to throw in the works to hold up the institutions.

I’d be surprised if that was true, but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

It's you kind of attitude that I hate, that I described in my first post, that he can do no wrong.

Don’t worry, that’s not my attitude. I’d say his current stance on Sinn Féin continuing in government is a mistake, although not motivated by a desire to bring down the institutions as you seem to believe. According to the terms of the Belfast Agreement, Sinn Féin are entitled to continue in government, regardless of what the IRA does. The answer to the impasse is to simply instigate a security clampdown on paramilitaries.

As for refusing to condemn attacks, about a month ago in the Irish News, the front page had a full length article on this matter stating facts. If you read it you'd understand.

I’ll have to take your word for it, unless you have a link.

And finally, maybe you are right about me not giving Trimble time to condemn the incident in Andersonstown, but is a 'that was a dreadful thing to do' really cut it these days?

No it doesn’t, but in fairness, that’s all anyone else is saying. What Trimble, and everyone else, should be calling for in response to attacks like these is proper law enforcement, impossible at the moment given the emasculation of the police service.

Winning Hand

Originally posted by Shinji
Ever wonder why the highest concentration of armchair nationalists who bleat about 32 county republics is in Cork and Kerry?

Ill give you kerry but comon now, Cork didnt return any SF TDs whereas dublin did Anyway Ill put money down that the highest concentration of armchair/ active nationalists can be found our side of the border (louth par example). You know, the ones who dont have to suffer any oppression yet enjoy the shopping trips to the north where its cheaper. Bit Irish that one.
Also when people refer to the northern protestants please stop refering to them as english, it implies they were born/bred there and only moved to the north to piss the paddies off.

A. Self Obsessed
I strive to better myself, though not at the expense of others. Is that self obsessed?
B. Economically Swayed
My future career will be economically rewarding, but it isnt why I am spending 6+years to obtain it
C. Greedy
Dont think so
D. VERY Unpatriotic
Id die for this country. However there is nothing endearing about the irish love for the tipple, especially abroad where theyre supposed to be representing us as a nation. Hence I dont wear my Irishness on my sleeve when Im abroad
E. Pro-British
Why not, they speak the same language, same culture & they drive on the same side of the road.
F. Ungrateful
Should we tell the brits to come back and tear down all the universities?

BJJ

Originally posted by Shazbat
I agree with you 100% but you are wasting your breath arguing with most of the peolpe on this site as they are happy to aquire their opinions from the indo and other such pro british newspapers.

On a similar note, the amount of people who buy the Sun in this country amazes me too, it is such an anti irish rag. Pure racism about the irish is often to be found within its twisted pages yet it is still very popular. It just goes to show the kind of gob****es that live in this country.

Shazbat, you are so right!


Here are a few quotes on headlines the Sun/Star/Mirror have published.


Day1 Canadian Ben Johnson takes Gold!!
Day2 AFRICAN IMMIGRANT CAUGHT ON DRUGS

Day1Green Party & FinnaFail leading Irish Election
Day2SINN FEIN IRA WINS IRISH SOUTHERN ELECTION

Day1Is Eric Cantona England's greatest player?
Day2 MAD FRENCH MAN KUNGFU KICKS SUPPORTER

Day1Irish hero saves girl from Crocodile!!
Day2IRA MAN MURDERS CHILDS PET!!!


Johnny5 ,
Good luck trying to argue with a bunch of idiots

BJJ

Sun/Star/Mirror have published.


Day1 Canadian Ben Johnson takes Gold!!
Day2 AFRICAN IMMIGRANT CAUGHT ON DRUGS

Day1Green Party & FinnaFail leading Irish Election
Day2SINN FEIN IRA WINS IRISH SOUTHERN ELECTION

Day1Is Eric Cantona England's greatest player?
Day2 MAD FRENCH MAN KUNGFU KICKS SUPPORTER

Day1Irish hero saves girl from Crocodile!!
Day2IRA MAN MURDERS CHILDS PET!!!

Jake

Agree with most of what ye say Johhny5

Something Iv been wondering about for a while is..............

Say for example in the next 20 years Sinn Fein continue to grow down here
Up north the majority of catholics/nationalists/republicans vote for sinn fein.
A situation that may well happen!

Say the catholic/nationalist/republican poulation become the majority
A situation that may well happen!

A vote is taken and a majority in the six counties favour a united Ireland.
Another vote is taken in the south to see if a majority favour a united ireland but is defeated by a small margin
A situation that may well happen!

What then?

The majority of who we would consider "irish people" (I only say Irish in this context for the sake of this argument) have voted for a united ireland if you include both states (north and south) BUT the majority down here is blocking the overall majority of "irish" people who voted for a united Ireland from realizing that dream.

One of the big arguments put foward by the "Celtic tiger" generation so active on this board against a united Ireland is that the loyalist/unionist community would turn to violence against the south but I think this situation (if indeed it were to happen at all, but you never know) would see a far bigger threat comming from the Sinn Fein/united ireland element both north and south.
Would they eccept this situation?
Doubt it.
Would they pick up arms against those who have apposed them..........they have in the past.
Will those within the "celtic tiger generation" who value matterial things and care only for their own welfar and so voted against a United Ireland be willing to fight the pro united Ireland'ers?

Would love to find out.........

dathi1

Although I consider myself an Irish Nationalist and hope some day soon we can unite all 32 counties...I think this new federal Euro superstate that we are being coned into will make our historical feud with Britain look like a tea party. Old enemies on this island will probably forge links to counteract an oppressor of unimaginable proportions.

Meh

daith1, if you're worried about the vast shadowy fascist EU conspiracy oppressing you, may I recommend one of these.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
Although I consider myself an Irish Nationalist and hope some day soon we can unite all 32 counties...I think this new federal Euro superstate that we are being coned into will make our historical feud with Britain look like a tea party. Old enemies on this island will probably forge links to counteract an oppressor of unimaginable proportions.

Yes yes, because any day now the EU will magically make it impossible for any nation to accede from the union.

Jeez - get a grip. If the nation (i.e. the majority of the people) wants out of the EU, then we are gone. Full stop, end of story.

The only way this could be prevented from happening is if we actually agreed (again, national majority) to sign away or independance to become a member state in EU V2.0 or something. Exactly how likely is that?

As for the North of Ireland and our unpatriotism....

Last time I checked, the North didnt become part of the settlement because there was a significant factor of people up there who were....wait for it....opposed to a united Ireland.

In fact, the North of Ireland has historically had much stronger ties with the island of Britain for hundreds of years. You can, in fact, trace the closeness back to before the English actually took over.

I may be patriotic, but I believe in democracy. If the Cuige of Uladh had been democratically asked if it wanted to be part of the Saorstat or the Republic when they were being formed, the majority would have said no. Given that Ireland before the English had kings in each Cuige, I believe they have a right to determine their own path. They made the decision, and while the minority of Republicans who choose to stay there have had a terrible time of it (which I do feel sorry for), I never once have felt that I have in any way sacrificed my nationalism.

The Irish fought to be free. Part of your freedom is the right to self-determinism. On a large scale, we usually use a mechanism called democracy for that.

I have no problem with the North remaining as part of Great Britain, as it it what they would have chosen for themselves at the time had they been asked. To date, they havent changed their minds, and it is not my right to fight for the so-called "freedom" of a minority at the cost of ignoring the exact same rights which the majority have.

Should the majority in the North ever decide that they do wish to rejoin the Republic, then it will be equally up to the Republic to decide if they wish to accept them. On that day, I will vote acceptance - once again supporting the democratic rights of the majority.

jc

dathi1

If the nation (i.e. the majority of the people) wants out of the EU, then we are gone. Full stop, end of story.

Just like in Texas. yep yer right.



European News Agency Aug 20th 2022. 4 Euro Military police officers were killed in Navan by what seems to be a new version of the radiation burst bomb developed by separatist terrorists. The Irish Zone based Irish Freedom Army clamed responsibility for the killings. Euro antiterrorist cheif of staff Proncias de rossa said that all must be done to twart the efforts of these units and called for new emergency powers to enforce the alreadly outlawed wireless outernet believed to be used by terrorist groups to communicate within the approved EuroNet system. Users of unlicensed wirless net pods face up to 20 military detention in the notorious Frankfurt DieCamp. The so called Islamic Eire based in Dublin also calmed responsibility for the attack but military sources in Brussels have ruled this out.

Meh

Originally posted by dathi1
Just like in Texas. yep yer right.

The US constitution is very different from any foreseeable EU constitution. And if there is an EU constitution sometime in the future, the Irish electorate will assuredly have a chance to vote on it -- it's not covered under the QMV rules.

European News Agency Aug 20th 2022. 4 Euro Military police officers were killed in Navan by what seems to be a new version of the radiation burst bomb ....

What's your point? Anyone can make up a fictional story supporting their argument. Do you actually have any logic to support this as a likely outcome?

Johnny 5

While I agree with your sentiments bonkey, I hope your of the same opinion when I say that Northern Ireland was created illegally, whereby a country was created where a certain religion where the majority, therefore ruled?

I welcome your statement on the voting yes in the next vote whenever that may be, as that is probably the only suitable answer one could come up with without being unpatriotic etc.

dathi1

Do you actually have any logic to support this as a likely outcome?

Forcing a nation to run a referendum twice or maybe 3 times until the result suits prodi et al..would be one good example....hell they can just do it from now on with every other Treaty we might reject.
Ps: I'm all in favour of the European economic Union but I think there is a rush towards federalism at the behest of France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

Nevyn

Originally posted by DeVore
God I cant wait until its decided by democratic vote. It will slowly sink in that the side with the highest promiscuity will control the situation LOL.

Can you imagine the placards: "Fnck for your country!" and "Unionists do it in the Jacks (Union Jacks!)"


DeV.

The rev. paisley already used this arguement in the 70s that every good prod family would have to have at least 3 children or else the catholics would breed like rats and out number them


As for opions from Kerry my old Granddad often said the only was was to turn the 6 counties into and island the let them sort it out themselves and I agree with him

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Johnny 5
While I agree with your sentiments bonkey, I hope your of the same opinion when I say that Northern Ireland was created illegally, whereby a country was created where a certain religion where the majority, therefore ruled?

Illegal? Sorry, unless I'm mistaken we (the Irish Free State) agreed (albeit reluctantly) to the formation of NI. If anything the Republic was not exactly declared above board by DeValera, AFAIR.

Originally posted by dathi1
I'm all in favour of the European economic Union but I think there is a rush towards federalism at the behest of France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

Hmmm... Have you ever been to Langley, Virginia? What are your sympathies for the US, dathi1... if that is your real nick? :rolleyes:

smiles

Originally posted by Johnny 5
Don't get me wrong, I am neither a militant or support military means. I support fully democratic means and when the time comes when there is a majority of catholics in the North, then the British and Irish governments must publish a green paper detailing the process of which a UI will come about. The process should be phased lasting probably about 2 years. A gradual withdrawl. Before this time the Irish Army would need to have been built up, reserves called in etc and the Air Corps built up to quell disturbances. One may aruge that what would happen if the Protestants came to majority, truth is nothing could legally happen as NI would be no more, Protestants would be but 20% of the population. It would be better financially and politcally for unionists to accept a UI in these terms. But unlike many of the southerners they are patriotic.

Firstly: ROFL.

Secondly:

Are you a catholic?
Are you a *practising* catholic?
Do you have *any* idea of the proportion of *this* country that is?
The make up of Northern Ireland's religious groups is unimportant to the British Government at this stage.

Why would N. Ireland want to join back with us?
As was already said, why would we want them?

What difference would a United Ireland make? Would it make us a "better" country? Because we kicked people with one religion out?

20% protestants? That is unlikely to happen.

The idea of a united Ireland is a nice one -- had it happened maybe 60/70 years ago -- but now we're all too different.

Countries evolve and develop individually, Northern Ireland will always have a different past and trying to unite them would only cause more killings -- or is that what you want? another blood-bath.

<< Fio >>

bonkey

Originally posted by Johnny 5
While I agree with your sentiments bonkey, I hope your of the same opinion when I say that Northern Ireland was created illegally, whereby a country was created where a certain religion where the majority, therefore ruled?/B]

No, I dont accept that.

Your logic can be extended to effectively say that every country was created illegally. In fact, the creation of Northern Ireland was far more political than the creation of most other counties which still exist on the map today. If anything, it has one of the most valid existences from a legal point of view.

I would also suggest that you try and find what laws its creation broke, because otherwise I think you'll find that the term "illegal" is entirely inappropriate - emotive, but inaccurate.

Originally posted by dathi1
Forcing a nation to run a referendum twice or maybe 3 times until the result suits prodi et al..would be one good example....hell they can just do it from now on with every other Treaty we might reject.

You mean like they didnt accept any of the other referenda which have had results in the past which the government didnt like. Oh - no wait. They did.

And maybe you could explain how any government will be able to do this? Maybe you've forgotten that :

1) Until they get a majority of the voters to agree with them, they can do nothing. Its easy to accept a No vote and look for a referendum, but the government could never survive actually not acting on the outcome of a referendum.
2) The public majority, on the other hand, can oust a government by doind nothing more than voting for someone else in the next election.

As I've already pointed out in the "Nice means jobs to go" thread, there isnt a single shred of evidence that the government have any intention of continuing the "back to the people" attitude of the current re-run, although there is evidence to suggest that this is indeed an exvceptionally unusual situation. Secondly, you should ask yourself what FF gain by these actions. They stand to lose political power because some of their voting public is most unhappy with them. So exactly why are they risking the future of their own party on this?

Let me guess - its a precursor to Jan 15, 2004 - the Irish Night of the Long Knives, when a shadowy group of crack mercenaries will eliminate the entire Irish political structure with the exception of one party who will then effectively hold the country to ransom until we agree to pass a referenda granting them absolute power in perpetuity. Any individual who complains about a loss of dmocracy will be rounded up and shot as a dissenter.

See - just like you I can come up with this complete fiction. I'm not sure what its validity is though - I cant remember the last time someone used the stories from shows like Stargate or Andromeda, (or any other futurustic fiction) as a basis for political argument. Maybe you could explain how its done, or is it just more contentless content?

If, on the other hand, you could actually form a credible argument as to how you see this future coming to pass, rather than some sound-byte scaremongering, Id be more willing to take you seriously.

I mean come on - no-one from Ireland seems to be able to mention a negative sentiment on Nice or the EU without telling us that we are heralding in the end of democracy with this government's actions.

Again, as I pointed out in the other thread, I dont understand this. If you're sure that the government will lose again, then there is no problem - they've sunk their own boat, and there'll be no chance of a third referendum - they govt will find themselves out of power before thats likely to happen. Even if it did, they'd just keep on losing until a general election at which point a massively pissed off public would oust them from power. So - nothing to worry about here.

Alternately, maybe you're afraid that, shick horror, the government will win. But they can only do that if a majority of voters say Yes to Nice. Now, are you so hung up on democracy that it was OK to say no a while back and we should abide by that, but if we say "yes" by a significantly different margin this time around, thats not ok because its not democratic?

I wasnt aware that democracy forbade one to change ones mind

jc