Ireland and racism.

orangerooster

I know its been done to death so lets exhume the maggot ridden foetid corpse and listen to my story.I was walking down graffton street when a brood of knackers started to shout horrible racist slurs at two black men e.g "Hey Anto would ya look at the black bastard!" Yeah go home ya foreign ****!" the two men seemed non-plussed but is this the fact that they are used to it or the fact that it was a group of ignorant fools slurring them?If it is the latter so be it but if they are just plain used to it (which i do not doubt for a second in any way.) i would be very worried indeed as it is not just anto,decko,steeo(no ofense to people with these names) etc doing this it is anyone like the people who are part of that orginisation which appeared on the late late show a few years back.It made me sick!opinions?

Venom

I was walking down graffton street when a brood of knackers

I guess its ok for you to make racist slurs but its just wrong if the "knackers" do it? Go look in the mirror before pointing fingers at other people bub.

Hellrazer

Venom I wouldnt be so hard on orange rooster there.If I say a group of these "youths" openly making racist slurs against foreign nationals I would also refer to them as "Knackers".They dont deserve respect from anyone.
Back on topic---Its my opinion that these people have become so immune to ignorant fools slurring them that they have gotten used to it and decided not to react to it.
And as orange rooster says its not just your little anto,deco etc that do this its also people who you least suspect of being racist,even down to my mother who will make comments about immigrants in a not so open way.But this is still racist behaviour.
In the last election my sister and her voted for some anti-black party(Irish something or other party who were openly canvassing for deportation of immigrants)Needless to say I was extremely annoyed.They couldnt understand why.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Venom


I guess its ok for you to make racist slurs but its just wrong if the "knackers" do it? Go look in the mirror before pointing fingers at other people bub.

"Knacker" is not a racist slur.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

prophet88

The last thing I want is to start any trouble especially here so i'll try to be as brief as i can and remember everybody this is just my opinion.

No-one has to right to say that someone does not deserve respect, especially when you don't even know the person. What has happened here with these travellers slagging off the foreigner is a typical case of a syndrome that my vocabulary cannot list. It is basically this, What you don't know, you fear, what's different with an air of mystery, you fear. These fella's seen this foreigner and did what they thought was expected from them. Too many people are trying to make their mark, be a 'man' and too many people are constantly trying to prove themselves to others, i.e. friends, family, partners. It's not in their control to change this because they haven't seen the light (so to speak). Thinking from a first person, small mind point of view is a weakness. An unavoidable weakness that plagues so many in society today. The reason why the foreigner did not say anything could be because he knows the old saying 'Sticks and stones.....' These fellas are going to slag the guy off but like i said, what they don't know, they're afraid off. They will call him every name under the sun but they won't dare take the risk of starting a fight or anything with the guy. Regardless of how many people they have behind them. They're thinking logically. They don't know this guy or his origin, therefore don't know his connections, his standing.

To sum it all up, what the travellers were doing was not an act of racism but more an act of fear.

People use big words today without understanding the intensity of them. It is because of this that a lot of arguements arise in society. No two minds are exactly alike.

Prophet88

Venom

"Knacker" is not a racist slur.

Yes it is.Using the word to discribe a person or individuals in a derogatory meaning is a racist slur.

In the last election my sister and her voted for some anti-black party(Irish something or other party who were openly canvassing for deportation of immigrants)Needless to say I was extremely annoyed.They couldnt understand why.

Well this is a result of living in a semi free society.If you give people the right to vote you have to deal with them voting in a way you may not agree with.

Gelmir

If I'm a racist then I discriminate on the grounds of race but if I 'm prejudiced against some one because of where there from does this make me a nationalist?

prophet88

Why do so many people walk around blindly living life. All men and women are equal and the sooner everyone sees it that way, the better it will be, but the fact that this will never happen only means this post cannot solve anything!

stevoslice

Knacker is the word the travelling community wish to be refferred to now, tinker is also acceptible, but not itinerants or pavees.

Believe it or believe it not.

Hellrazer

I think we are gone slightly off topic here.
Myself or Orangerooster were not referring to members of the travelling community,we were using the term "knacker"in a derogatory manner to describe the people making racist comments.
Not specifically referring to travellers.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt

on the off chance that caravans have built in modems these days I would like to apologise to any member of the travelling community I have offended and would also suggest they return the stolen laptop to its rightful owner.

Heh, heh, that's the funneh.:)

Yes it is.Using the word to discribe a person or individuals in a derogatory meaning is a racist slur.

Only when the word refers to the race of the person. I wasn't talking about travellers, I was talking about the subhuman filth that make up the criminal underclass of this society.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by prophet88
No-one has to right to say that someone does not deserve respect, especially when you don't even know the person. What has happened here with these travellers slagging off the foreigner is a typical case of a syndrome that my vocabulary cannot list. It is basically this, What you don't know, you fear, what's different with an air of mystery, you fear. These fella's seen this foreigner and did what they thought was expected from them. Too many people are trying to make their mark, be a 'man' and too many people are constantly trying to prove themselves to others, i.e. friends, family, partners. It's not in their control to change this because they haven't seen the light (so to speak). Thinking from a first person, small mind point of view is a weakness. An unavoidable weakness that plagues so many in society today. The reason why the foreigner did not say anything could be because he knows the old saying 'Sticks and stones.....' These fellas are going to slag the guy off but like i said, what they don't know, they're afraid off. They will call him every name under the sun but they won't dare take the risk of starting a fight or anything with the guy. Regardless of how many people they have behind them. They're thinking logically. They don't know this guy or his origin, therefore don't know his connections, his standing.

Sorry, but you're wrong. What happened was that a group of KNACKERS decided to start harrassing a black person just for the fun of it. That's the beginning, the middle and the end of it.

Venom

Why do so many people walk around blindly living life. All men and women are equal and the sooner everyone sees it that way, the better it will be, but the fact that this will never happen only means this post cannot solve anything!

The sooner that people realise that everyone is NOT equal the sooner we can as a society do something about correcting the problem. We can say that were an equal society and all people are treated equal until were blue in the face,but that dont make it true.

Only when the word refers to the race of the person. I wasn't talking about travellers, I was talking about the subhuman filth that make up the criminal underclass of this society.

Oh you meant northsiders did ya.Fair comment I suppose then.

If I'm a racist then I discriminate on the grounds of race but if I 'm prejudiced against some one because of where there from does this make me a nationalist?

No it makes you a di<khead. Or in your case,still a di<khead.

Knacker is the word the travelling community wish to be refferred to now, tinker is also acceptible, but not itinerants or pavees.

Just the same way that folks like you like to be refered to as fu<kwit I guess.

Hellrazer

This is the question that orange rooster asked-and we should be giving opinions on the question-not whether "knacker" is a racist slur.If you are referring to a traveller then I believe it is but if you are referring to a "criminal" then no its not.

Originally posted by orangerooster_2000
the two men seemed non-plussed but is this the fact that they are used to it or the fact that it was a group of ignorant fools slurring them?It made me sick!opinions?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Venom
Oh you meant northsiders did ya.Fair comment I suppose then.

No. Not all knackers are northsiders. Not all northsiders are knackers.

bonkey

Now, see, if I started referring to Dublin scum-bags as "nignogs" or "rag-heads", I'm sure everyone would jump up and down and tell me that I was being racist.....by using a racially descriptive term to describe someone in a derogatory manner......even if I'm mis-applying the term.

What I would be told is that :

a) They are not nig-nogs or rag-heads, because that term applies to a different group.

b) Using that term to describve a scum bag is probably even more insulting to the people it is typically associated with, because I am now basically saying that they are all scumbags.

The simple fact is that using the term "knacker" to refer to anyone in a derogatory manner is, at the very least, showing a complete lack of respect to an entire community that exists on this island (the travellers). Whether or not they classify a race depends on who you chose to listen to.

So - maybe the original comment was not racist, but it was about as well-considered as what it was complaining about, in my opinion.

jc

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey
Now, see, if I started referring to Dublin scum-bags as "nignogs" or "rag-heads", I'm sure everyone would jump up and down and tell me that I was being racist.....by using a racially descriptive term to describe someone in a derogatory manner......even if I'm mis-applying the term.

I wouldn't. Because then those words would become less of a racial insult and more of a condemnation of a certain type of behaviour. The more they are used in the behavioral context, the less power and impact they have in the racial context. Which is a good thing, surely?
Personally, I never use the word "knacker" to describe travellers in general. I use it to describe people that show a complete lack of respect towards their fellow citizens. I don't apologise for it, and I don't see why anyone should take offence at it.

SheroN

i love the way people who've never hand caravans full of knackers living beside them are always so PC.

stevoslice

Venom your a VVankbag, i was simply making a statement, true might i add, so all i have to say is go fu<k yourself with a hot poker.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Have had itinerants living next door to me. Find it hard to be tolerant, but tolerant we must be. As for the racial thing, it might start to get better when ("racist slurs at two black men ") we start saying men instead of black men. I think that as long as you see them as different, others will...

Venom

I wouldn't. Because then those words would become less of a racial insult and more of a condemnation of a certain type of behaviour. The more they are used in the behavioral context, the less power and impact they have in the racial context. Which is a good thing, surely?

So by your logic I could use the term stupid ****** or dozy paky in reference to a white person doing something stupid and no offience should or would be taking from a person of non white origin?

I think not.That has to be the lamest arguement Iv ever heard.

i love the way people who've never hand caravans full of knackers living beside them are always so PC.

Yes Sher I have had the theiving gypo sucmbags camped in an area far to close to where I was living and they did much up the whole place and the level of vandalism and stealing did increase.Im the least PC poster on this board as I really couldnt give a flying fu<k in all fairness, but I find it rich complaining about racial slurs being hurled at people while the same outraged poster is making racial slurs himself.


bonkey - spot on as always mate.

mike65

Have any of you read this thread-

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=543784#post543784

read the last comment by me then read back over this thread,
...civil dicussion?!?!?!?!?!

Mike.

Von

Shortly after coming back from Italy last year I was in westmoreland street with a friend. We were talking about the unsightly mounds of black rubbish bags or something when a woman walking by looked at me and said -

"If you don't like it here go back to where you came from!"

I'm not sure if she somehow knew I was from Meath - the rivalry between Dublin and Meath is legendary, but perhaps because I had a pretty good tan, and looked vaguely healthy, she assumed I was one of those foreigners who had come over to ireland to laze about on the dole, take all the jobs, and generally bleed the country dry, as foreigners, specifically those with darker skin, are wont to do, whilst brazenly refusing to fit in to society and conform to the as yet undefined criteria which determine whether one can, after due deliberation, be considered to be truly Irish.

Clintons Cat

von,i always suspected you was a swarthy heathen.
If anyone else has been mistakenly accused of being a foriegner perhaps with humourous results perhaps they could also post them up.
I for my sins have been accused of being a portuguese asylumn seeker a claim that i found equally amusing and depressing,but having a pressing engagement elsewhere i felt not the need to educate the poor ignorant lass of the political structure of the EU or my own proud heritage which includes celts,scots,english and siekhs and depending on how many drinks i have had maybe also vikings and maoris.However i totally draw the line at being called PORTUGUESE.

bonkey

Originally posted by SheroN
i love the way people who've never hand caravans full of knackers living beside them are always so PC.

I love the way that people who are PC are always assumed to not know what they're talking about.

You seem to be saying "if you had suffered this, you'd be racist too".

I have. I amnt. Cope.

jc

orangerooster

Hellrazer is right i am not in any way referring to the travelling communitie.My main aguement has been barely discussed due me using that one word which as has been pointed out i was using it to refer to "anto , deco kevo" etc.

Kim Tae-Woo

?

Venom

??

Aspro

I love the way that people who are PC are always assumed to not know what they're talking about.

True. It's just an excuse to try and portray a rational human approach as fluffy ignorant liberalism.
But then again I think "politically correct" is a stupid term i.e. that people should only have respect for others because someone else might find it offensive.
That's like saying I won't kick you in the head because someone might see me doing it. Why do I want to kick you in the head in the first place? Where are the roots of my hatred and fear? Why do I not deal with people on an individual respect basis?
Because it's easier to generalise, i.e.

"All travellers are dirty thieves who like getting into fights"
"All young lads from deprived working class areas are 'knackers' who like getting into fights"
"All asylum seekers are bogus scam artists trying to rip off the state"

You look at people from that perspective and you're living in a siege mentality. What does it boil down to? Where does the fear come from? From our own personal desire for personal and financial security. There are symptoms and there are causes.

However I think there are certain groups of whom I can generalise and be justified in calling scumbag thieves for the role they play in society:

Right wing politicians (i.e. most of them)
Landlords
Car insurance companies
Land speculators
The Ansbacher list

These fúckers love it when people waste their energy hating the wrong people because it takes the focus off them. Divide and conquer - the time honoured method.

Sand

Got to go with Biffa here - Knackers* acting like knackers isnt exactly shocking. Id say the fellahs they were abusing were doing their best to ignore them and thus avoid any confrontation. You can try and psyhoanalyse them and their issues with people who arent like them but theyll probably go something along the lines of "Ya wha? Ya spanner! Are yu startin are ye - Ill bleedin battar ye!!" Obviously they beat the snot out of you cos theyre racist against you too.

* If the use of the term Knacker, commonly used to refer to scumbags - and inexplicably, a large proportion of the travelling community - offends you, then dont ever leave your room and venture into the big bad world. You can however assume Knacker means friendly people who love to sing and dance and play with rabbits if you feel better about it that way.

However I think there are certain groups of whom I can generalise and be justified in calling scumbag thieves for the role they play in society:

Im extremely biased against the layabout knackers referred to as arts students/wannabe communists. Just seeing as we seem to be sharing and caring here.

"All travellers are dirty thieves who like getting into fights" blah, blah - those other quotes

Everytime you have unprotected sex youll catch an STD. Not true but youd be a ****ing moron not to take precautions regardless, wouldnt you?

Turnip

Originally posted by Sand
Im extremely biased against the layabout knackers referred to as arts students/wannabe communists. Just seeing as we seem to be sharing and caring here.

Yeah, can't wait for that crowd of stupid smelly hippycrites to clog up the streets with their utterly ineffectual anti american leave super Saddam alone protests, once the war starts. Hopefully the gardai will have better batons and some tear gas guns by then.

Originally posted by Sand Everytime you have unprotected sex youll catch an STD. Not true but youd be a ****ing moron not to take precautions regardless, wouldnt you?

That's a stupid f**king statement. Any time I've received hassle on the street, it hasn't come from from knackers or scangers, it's come from cocky drunken under 23 year old IT nerds who can't get laid because they're cocky drunken under 23 year old IT nerds. So maybe pubs should stick a blanket ban on cocky drunken under 23 year old IT nerds yeah?

Cop on.

Aspro

Yeah, can't wait for that crowd of stupid smelly hippycrites to clog up the streets with their utterly ineffectual anti american leave super Saddam alone protests, once the war starts. Hopefully the gardai will have better batons and some tear gas guns by then.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

amp

While this is a somewhat heated debate, resorting to calling another poster names is pathetic and childish. Attack each others arguments not each other.

Wook

while most of you discuss the affect of racism on your Irish image, nobody kinda actually knows what it is to be insulted for something trivial as colour of your skin , your DNA appearance and just the way you lead your life.

I am not sure if any of you guys actually do look different then the average white Irish ?
did any of you ever had to face a couple of no-brainers trying to intimidate and call you names ?
did any of you ever got treated badly in any kind of financial institution or organisation of any kind , because of your origins ?
Or been ignored by white woman because they think coming home with a coloured guy is just not right...and what would the friends say?

I am not trying to be PC because indeed foreign people do annoy me sometimes but then again so do the Irish

Biffa Bacon

First they came for the Nazis,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without them.
Then they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without them.
Then they came for Milosevic,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without him.
Then they came for al-Qaeda,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without them.
Then they came for the Taliban,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without them.
Then they came for Saddam,
and I didn't speak up,
because the world was better off without them.
Then the SWP went on a self-serving protest march,
and everyone ignored them,
because they were stupid.
Then they came for me,
and said "Oh sorry, case of mistaken identity there, we only go after genocidal dictators".
etc. etc.

Aspro

:rolleyes:

Turnip

Originally posted by amp
While this is a somewhat heated debate, resorting to calling another poster names is pathetic and childish. Attack each others arguments not each other.

'Spa' comment duly retracted, although I was sorely tempted to assign it to Biffa Bacon for his trolling.

amp

ah the classic "WAAA WAAA! it wasn't me it was him" argument. Shut up. Back on-topic.

SheroN

I admit to being racist towards knackers, I've had plenty dealings with them, I've never met one who made me change my opinion of them.

Sand

I admit to being racist towards knackers, I've had plenty dealings with them, I've never met one who made me change my opinion of them.

Yeah, as I seemingly failed to illustrate to Turnip in my last post theres a somewhat fine line between frothing at the mouth bigotry and sheer common bloody sense. Once bitten, twice shy is a good saying but so many PC types seem to believe we should be bitten again and again and again and again..... Makes you wonder how many times they burnt themselves before they convinced themselves fire was hot.

Yeah, can't wait for that crowd of stupid smelly hippycrites to clog up the streets with their utterly ineffectual anti american leave super Saddam alone protests, once the war starts.

Yeah, fight the man idiots are fairly amusing in large numbers - especially when they go out for a bit of "Garda baiting" and end up getting what they were looking for.

So maybe pubs should stick a blanket ban on cocky drunken under 23 year old IT nerds yeah?

Ive no problem with that. Better yet, by my understanding the Equal Status Act cant touch us for discriminating against 23 year old IT nerds , at least unless theyre a member of a pre-determined minority of some sort, or female- one or the other.

In any case would you be safer in the company of drunken 23 year old IT nerds or in a pub where there are two families of travellers drinking? Please display common sense here:)

sceptre

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
von,i always suspected you was a swarthy heathen.
If anyone else has been mistakenly accused of being a foriegner perhaps with humourous results perhaps they could also post them up.

I was in McDonalds about five years ago (wearing a French soccer jersey) when the girleen serving me took the opportunity to tell me that my English was "really good"

Took it as a compliment anyway. It's not every day that someone compliments my command of my native tongue.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Thanx 4 The Fish
As for the racial thing, it might start to get better when ("racist slurs at two black men ") we start saying men instead of black men. I think that as long as you see them as different, others will...

Thats just stupid. Well start saying 'men' when thier color has no relevance to the story. In this case it has a pretty large relevance.

Dont know about anyone else but i do see black people as different to me. Just as i see asian/eskimo/native peruvians as different to me. I dont see how something that is factually correct is racist.

Raskolnikov

It's funny to see the hypocrisy of some of you guys. A lot of you come here complaining about racism and ignorance towards black people while also then throwing racist remarks at travellers.

The origins of travellers are not entirely clear, some say that they were amoungst the first settlers in Ireland after the Ice Age. Wether this is true or not it is clear that they have been in Ireland for hundreds if not thousands of year. While i don't mean to put down immigrants i find it incredible that people can be so ignorant towards them while being so receptive of people with different skin colour and culture who have been here for a few months/years.

While there are an awful lot of travellers who are totally unscrupulous i don't think it is fair to sterotype them all as itenerents or knackers

Bonkey : It might be a lot of work but prehaps you should consider editing posts that contain deflamatory remarks? I'm all for freedom of speech but making unfounded and unbacked up statements just means that threads turn into slanging matches

amp

Originally posted by RASKOLNIKOV
Bonkey : It might be a lot of work but prehaps you should consider editing posts that contain deflamatory remarks? I'm all for freedom of speech but making unfounded and unbacked up statements just means that threads turn into slanging matches

I presume you mean the Humanities mods, like me, Micro and Zenith? I also presume you mean "inflamatory". We do, but only when it turns into a slagging match. Also it's sometimes hard to define what exactly is inflamatory and what isn't.

Now, back to the topic in hand.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Dustaz

Quick point on semantics. Its blindingly obvious from the first post that the poster was using the word 'Knackers' in the context of 'General Scumbags'. Unless you have been hiding under a rock for the last 20 years, youll know that the word 'knacker' has come to mean something other than traveller in a lot of cases. Like it or not , thats the way it is. Some people use that word with no ill-intentions to travellers.

Wook

Raskolnikov

this is going to sound a bit 'right winged' but I am certainly not.
but does 'time' have any value on what a person is worth ?
If the travellers are here for thousands of years, then clearly they should have something to say in Ireland.
Traditions and cultural mixture between Irish and Irish travellers should be in place then no?

but all I see , is that they are banned from most night-clubs.pubs, all places that have some kind of social gathering. Is that not a sign that tells you something is wrong ? Travellers are regarded by most Irish as scum and not to be trusted...am I right?
I don't live here long enough to get the complete picture but..I don't see much initiative of the travellers community to change their image...can we then assume that they really do not care much about what other people think? And if so, are Irish nationals then not in their right to complain about the disturbance that comes along with a group of caravans on your neighbourhood pitch?

(as somebody said before , discus the opinion, do not flame .....ahum me )

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by amp


I presume you mean the Humanities mods, like me, Micro and Zenith? I also presume you mean "inflamatory". We do, but only when it turns into a slagging match. Also it's sometimes hard to define what exactly is inflamatory and what isn't.

Now, back to the topic in hand.

Whoops i thought this was the politics board My apologies

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt


Hypocrisy is a fact of life. Deal with it. There is no law against it.





Ahhh they have been around since the Ice age. Thats ok then.

No wait...it makes it worse. You think they could use a bin by now.

Feel free to pm me the location of a load of travellers parked up somewhere..... where its all clean and tidy. I will change my ways.

I was very Knacker friendly....... till I met loads. And we dont paint them all with the "same brush" They do.

I simply can't get through to you, there are travellers who are like that, infact there are a lot of them. But i still think it is unfair to label them all.

By the way i have had travellers camped up just outside the town i live in. Initially there was uproar over it, but people got used to the idea. When the travellers left they actually made a reasonable attempt to clean up after them too.

If i said all black people were wasters and should all be deported i'd be lynched, but yet some of you seem to have double standards concerning travellers

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Wook
Raskolnikov

this is going to sound a bit 'right winged' but I am certainly not.
but does 'time' have any value on what a person is worth ?
If the travellers are here for thousands of years, then clearly they should have something to say in Ireland.
Traditions and cultural mixture between Irish and Irish travellers should be in place then no?

but all I see , is that they are banned from most night-clubs.pubs, all places that have some kind of social gathering. Is that not a sign that tells you something is wrong ? Travellers are regarded by most Irish as scum and not to be trusted...am I right?
I don't live here long enough to get the complete picture but..I don't see much initiative of the travellers community to change their image...can we then assume that they really do not care much about what other people think? And if so, are Irish nationals then not in their right to complain about the disturbance that comes along with a group of caravans on your neighbourhood pitch?

(as somebody said before , discus the opinion, do not flame .....ahum me )

Some good points there

That is true, whenever travellers are accused of any wrong doing they are all too quick to play the race card instead of actually listening and trying to sort out their differences. I think that the groups representing travellers must at least try to meet non-travellers half way. That means that instead of us bashing travellers we should try to be more understanding of them. It would also mean that travellers would be subject to Irish law too.

You also shouldn't forget that travellers are Irish Nationals too