Govt reintroducing fees on the sly

Stephen

Yes, Bertie and his pals have given me one more reason to hate their corrupt little government. Dunno if you've heard the news today, but the so-called third level "registration fee" has been bumped up to over 600 euros - around 100% increase.

So much for free education.

phobos

It looks like USI is going to be protesting on the streets of Dublin again, come next September. Jesus I did that bloody march twice, but this time they're really taking the piss.

You can read about it @ http://www.usi.ie/


a really annoyed ;-phobos-)

DiscoStu

this is a fúcking disgrace. i cut short my summer away and have gotten seriously in debt just so i would pass my repeats. now it looks like i wont be able to afford the "Registration fees". no wonder those ff'ers didnt have anything to say about the state of the student grant, spiraling rent etc. during the run up to the election. ****ing assholes.

Stephen

Anyone happen to have an email address for Noel Dempsey so that I may express how fúcking pissed off I am?

Gerry

protesting will be a bit late in september, after we already pay the fees. Hopefully something is organised for before then.

DadaKopf

The people USI should be targeting right now are the Leaving Cert students. Bomb the media. Problem is, school's out. They're just going to have to wait until September.

I'm thoroughly disgusted that the government would introduce a stealth tax on public education. It's going to prevent a whole swath of the population from considering third level education.

Technically, it probably doesn't amount to breaking the 'free fees', and €600 is nothing on the thousands a year that UK colleges cost. But the move is, possibly, just the beginning of a slow price hike. It's a fact that next to the US, Ireland has the most profound gap in high and low income inequality, this move is, surely, a bad one for Irish society and one which we should strenuously oppose. If the rhetoric they preach is of an egalitarian society, then they're just going to have to make good the policy of 'free' education.

Rabies

B@ASTARDS !!!

i have heard nothing about this in the news or papers.

thanks for posting that info Stephen.

€600 is too much

i have spent my summer working but the money i have earned is going to pay off other debts and get me through college next year. this is fu<king madness :mad:

i hope the USI organise a march before college starts back again.

we students get a rise in college fees and each year Bertie and his band of muppets get a salary increase :mad:

chernobyl

I have heard that the increase only applies to a percentage of students, so who gets the hike?
U students or IT students?

Slydice

I think its kak

Stephen

I think it applies to anyone who doesn't get a student grant (like me), but I can't be sure.

Lawnkiller

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

this really annoys me - i know poeple who can (by passing their exams) but won't be able to afford going back to college this autumn.

Cork

I think that the government need to spell out where they are going.

Students in Ireland are pretty OK compared to the UK.

I think that we need to double student grants while at the same time re introducing fees.

This would be fairer.

Abolishing fees was an error. But living on the student grant is impossible (been there, done that - borrowed the t shirt)

po0k

Tha's aweful shít

/me gets the placard out

grants are fine if you can get them.
however, I don't think that they're handed out fairly, and that the family status is taken into account.
The threshold should also have been raised by at elast 25-30% this year, not the paltry 6%.
My mother is a primary level teaching principal.
We are a single parent family, my father having died some years previous.
I honestly don't know how much she earns.

I know two families who are very well off relative to ourselves, one family has a merc in the driveway, the other a BMW 5 series and a 7 series.
They both got the grants.

How is this possible?

a 70% increase in fees is simply too much, and I'm not too sure how we're going to afford it.
I'm trying to either get accomdation near the college, or get a car/motorbike so i can go to college and go to my job aswell.
I am not elligible for the grant because i'm inside the radius of the college, by about 2km.
all this year i've had to rely on hitching lifts to college and ringing my mother up to get lifts home - something which is not in our economic intrests.

I for one am mightily píssed off at this.

Fúcking scumbag government jiped all over the people again.

I have nothing but righteous indignation and disrespect for the current government.

leeroybrown

Syxer really hit the nail on the head there ...

The people really getting ass-raped by the Government are those who do not qualify for maintanance but are not wealthy enough to come up with the difference.

Maybe the government as realised that the country is low on unskilled workers (although refugees/imigrants have more than shored up this problem recently) and are trying to create an "unskilled" pool of Irish workers.

Providing a good education to all is the way that Ireland will secure its economic future but hey the government only actually think about what the electorate really need once every 5 years.

po0k

I'm so tired and fed up with this backwards country.
It's only now that w're constructing a halfway decent national road network.
We've sold our telecomms infrastructure for a song and are now butt-fúcked cos foreign companies can't get decent afforadable connectivity in areas outside of dublin, and even when they do order it they're looking at 6 months wait in many cases.
This country is a joke economicly.
Féck-all foresight and an inbred and scandelous political institution.
I'm leaving as soon as I can aford to.
if only to get the christ out of this place for a few years.
To get away from this back-handed, sly wink-wink shíte.

Lemming

Boys and Girls,

its not 600 euro per year in fees .. its a 70% increase on whatever went before.

So, if you were paying IR£275 at the beginningof last september, take that, convert to Euro, then add 70%.

If you were paying IR£450 (or thereabouts in the bigger colleges), do likewise.

SO in reality its gonna be:

(smaller colleges): circa 348 + 243 (70%) = 591

(big colleges): circa 569 + 398 (70%) = 967

Free fees indeed :mad:

Whilst I am finished with my (under-gradate) 3rd level education, I can't help but feel that the government is shafting one of the prime reasons why companies are locating here. Our young, highly educated workforce.

phobos

Originally posted by SyxPak
I'm so tired and fed up with this backwards country.
It's only now that w're constructing a halfway decent national road network.
We've sold our telecomms infrastructure for a song and are now butt-fúcked cos foreign companies can't get decent afforadable connectivity in areas outside of dublin, and even when they do order it they're looking at 6 months wait in many cases.
This country is a joke economicly.
Féck-all foresight and an inbred and scandelous political institution.
I'm leaving as soon as I can aford to.
if only to get the christ out of this place for a few years.
To get away from this back-handed, sly wink-wink shíte.

I couldn't agree with you more.

The fact that you're coming from a single parent family John, and are not entitled to a grant is a joke. But I did hear from somewhere before that if your one of your parents is on a government salary, you won't get it. I can't see reason to that at all :mad:. I come from a single parent family too, and I got the grant through a means test. You cannot survive on the grant alone, especially if you have to pay rent (& other bills), which I did. I had to go working for Dunnes, on crap money. Management in Dunnes were all "Oh we care about your college hours, and future", but if you said you had to take time off to study for exams, you were quickly branded an enemy. It wasn't easy.

I feel sorry for people starting college, TBH. While I was in my final year of my undergraduate degree, I had every intention of going on to do a Masters. The fees for college have gone up, but luckily for me, I expected to have to fork out some lump sums. BTW John, I will be in NUIG next year doing my M.Sc. (I got the offer in the post the other day ). Right now I'm working on getting funds in order for the coming college year.

;-phobos-)

Chico_2002

Originally posted by Stephen
Anyone happen to have an email address for Noel Dempsey so that I may express how fúcking pissed off I am?

Here ya go

email : minister@environ.irlgov.ie
Ph : (046)31146
fax : (046)36646
His lenster house number (01)6183464

Kalina

Bertie and co probably think the tax is acceptable because the grant is going up by 5%! But that's still only around 120 Euro. Pathetic!

Lump

Decided to stick my boot in here..... "Oh for €600 fees..... at the moment, my parents (yes I'm spoilt) pay GB£1075 in fees for me in england....... I cant even get a student grant. And if I could it wouldn't be a grant it would be a student loan to be paid off when I started earning money. Oh well I didn't get the marks to get in to college in Ireland, so I'm glad I had something to fall back on. Wh00t"



John

Stephen

Originally posted by Chico_2002


Here ya go

email : minister@environ.irlgov.ie

I wonder if he (or more likely some lowly muppet who works for him) is going to ever reply to the message I just sent :mad:

Cork

however, I don't think that they're handed out fairly, and that the family status is taken into account.

Why Shold the Rich have their college fees paid for?

It does not even happen in the US.

I'm so tired and fed up with this backwards country.

This is the country that financed your education - you are luckly that you don;t have to pay back loans to the state.

Féck-all foresight and an inbred and scandelous political institution

We are the 13th least corrupt country in the World. Why shoulld students not pay for their education. People are being asked to pay for a small % of the acual cost of providing them with third level education.

How much does it cost to put u thru college?
How much will u pay?

You do not know how lucky u are. I was in college a couple of years ago. I paid fees. I paid for accomadation. Students are not as badly off as they were during the 80s. It think its time free fees are scraped.

When you have to pay 15c for a shopping bag. Why should a certain few get free fees?

Lump

Hmmmm, I presume because it is a human right to have a education.


John

Cork

I presume because it is a human right to have a education

There isw a constitutional right to primary school education.

What % of Irish people go onto third level?

Why should those who don't be compansatuing those who do?

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

It is about time - free fees were abolished. The government are right.

Maybe the government as realised that the country is low on unskilled workers (although refugees/imigrants have more than shored up this problem recently) and are trying to create an "unskilled" pool of Irish workers

Maybe our students will not have a problem taking some of these jobs and not relying on the Irish taxpayer for handouts.

zAbbo

As long as there are people like CORK there will always be unskilled workers(and possibly unitelligent), maybe the government should reverse its funding scheme and give people on the dole €65 a week and see how they live.

Ok my rent(which is cheap compaired to other places) is gonna be around €45 a week, Food - €10(the kate moss diet), travel - €10 etc. you can clearly see that €65 is not much and a lot of students struggle.

Now CORK is it justified for you to work and subsidise people who are drawing the dole which is twice the amount that most grant eligible student will get a week.

chernobyl

The reason a college education should be "free" is simple and the state will benefit from it.
How much more tax can the government make from xthousand professionals as opposed to those same ppl working in a factory for enternity.

Personally, without my parents i just could not afford to educate myself...and fuk me, if i was facing into a lifetime of minimum wage jobs..well close encounters of a 12 gauge.

Cork

As long as there are people like CORK there will always be unskilled workers(and possibly unitelligent), maybe the government should reverse its funding scheme and give people on the dole €65 a week and see how they live.

Well - I think that is would be fairer that the government double the maintenace grant and re introduce fees.

This would open up 3rd level education. Why, should I as a tax payer be paying Doctor Ys son Malcolm college fees?

Free fees was ill tought out. Lets open up third level education. Increase thitrd level grants to the same level as FAS & CERT courses. It would be far more equitable.

is it justified for you to work and subsidise people who are drawing the dole which is twice the amount that most grant eligible student will get a week.

Yes - These are out of work - They are often not working by no choice of their own.

How much more tax can the government make from xthousand professionals as opposed to those same ppl working in a factory for enternity.

Point proven:

Why should "

those same ppl working in a factory for enternity

" be subsiding your college fees?

It is your choice to go to college. Why are you expecting the state to pay for you? Do you expect to buy the Irish Times everyday?

po0k

Originally posted by Cork


Why Shold the Rich have their college fees paid for?

I never said the rich should have their college fees paid.
in fact I said the opposite, that with the current situation ppl who honestly could afford to pay it are able to get the grant which is intended for those who might have to scrimp and save to pay it.
There is a certain culture of trying to do people over to increase you own lot, and it is just beneath the surface of Irish society.

It does not even happen in the US.

No it doesn't, they have to pay their fees, and likewise the standard of education you recieve or even whether or not you recieve a 3rd level education depends on how much you can afford to spend.
That, imo, is not right.
It may be very idealist, but I feel everyone should ahve an equal starting block.
Even if it is imposisble to achieve, any step towads that is an improvement.
What the government has done is to reverse that process, hence a negative effect.

This is the country that financed your education - you are luckly that you don;t have to pay back loans to the state.

stfu
When (if?) I get a job after college you can bet you're arse i'll have to pay tax (Ireland being in the top income tax countries in the EU). So don't you dare harp on to us about paying back loans.
My mother has been paying for my education since the day she got her first paycheck, and I shall do the same for my own children.[/quote][/b]

We are the 13th least corrupt country in the World.

Back this up with a link to a recognised authority on the issue.
http://www.myarse.com is not good enough.

Why shoulld students not pay for their education.

Because we can't afford to.
in fact, this year i was working every evening to make money so i could afford to keep going to college.
At the moment I'm trying to save some moeny so I can be over-charged on car insurance so I can get myself to colelge and to work.
This year I ahd to rely on hitching lifts in th morning, the result being that I sometimes missed important lectures.
I live 10miles form the college, there are 2 buses which I *could* get (only in the morning), but that costs money (even with student tickets) and the bus stop is a mile from my home.

People are being asked to pay for a small % of the acual cost of providing them with third level education.

We allready pay for our education through taxation and registration fees and other sundry fees.
College books are extremely expensive when compared to secondary school books.
And colleges have many forms of income, including corporate sponsorships and similar deals and associations, not to mention research grants etc.

How much does it cost to put u thru college?
How much will u pay?

See above

You do not know how lucky u are. I was in college a couple of years ago. I paid fees. I paid for accomadation. Students are not as badly off as they were during the 80s. It think its time free fees are scraped.

It was due to free fees taht this country had enough of an educated young workforce to bring in outside investment and trade. They were a step in the right direction.
The government seems to be shooting itself in the foot.
In orderto reap rewards, it must invest our money back into our futures to earn dividends in the future.

When you have to pay 15c for a shopping bag. Why should a certain few get free fees?

That is a very tangential point and is a poor argument.
The levy on bags is to dissuade people from using them with abandon, because the cost of disposin the waste left from them is enormous, not to mention the negative impact on tourism etc.

po0k

Originally posted by Cork


There isw a constitutional right to primary school education.

What % of Irish people go onto third level?

If it wasn't such a financial burden more would, giving Ireland a more skilled and educated workforce.
Which was generally a good thing alst timeI checked.

Why should those who don't be compansatuing those who do?

Because the option is there. And (again) with an educated workforce it benifits the whole economy and therefore the country as a whole.
Why should any of us pay tax?
I, nor anyone i know, draws the dole, why should I pay my tax if some ofit's going to be spent on social welfare?
because i have a social responsibility to try and make sure everyone in the country gets as good a quality of life as is possible, and quality of life includes education.

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

Name 3 sunshine
In fact, name 1.

It is about time - free fees were abolished. The government are right.

No they are not.
Were they right to sell off the local loop into private hands? Why are people campaigning this ver minute to try and get teh governemnt to encourage the company it once owned to introduce something which would be of benefit to a large section of the country?

Maybe our students will not have a problem taking some of these jobs and not relying on the Irish taxpayer for handouts.

The state of affairs being that the majority of students are allready working their way through college, your point holds very little weight in this discussion.

po0k

Originally posted by Cork


Well - I think that is would be fairer that the government double the maintenace grant and re introduce fees.

That's not a bad idea in theory. The first decent thing I've read from you yet. Doubing the grant mightn't cover everything though.
Civil servents (teachers included) are automaticcally excluded from the grant.

This would open up 3rd level education. Why, should I as a tax payer be paying Doctor Ys son Malcolm college fees?

because he's mostlikely paying a shítload more €'s per annum in tax then you are.
And as a result, he is paying his own son's way trhough college, just as his parents did for him.
Just depends on your perspective.

Free fees was ill tought out. Lets open up third level education. Increase thitrd level grants to the same level as FAS & CERT courses. It would be far more equitable.

Where did we get all our engineers, IT specialists, doctors, lawyors, and scientists from?
FÁS courses are class, as are CERT, many Universities ahve "back-doors" into their courses now through such programmes and courses.
Long may they continue.
A valuable asset to the country.

Yes - These are out of work - They are often not working by no choice of their own.

True enough. But in recent times with our economic boom (due primarily to the large pool of educated workers) didn't the unemployemnt drop dramaticly?
But if the FÁS and CERT courses are so accessible, why aren't they in them, improving their skills and job prospects?

Point proven:

Why should " " be subsiding your college fees?

It is your choice to go to college. Why are you expecting the state to pay for you? Do you expect to buy the Irish Times everyday?

Because the majority of people in Ireland would like to see their children go on to 3rd level education.
If we to pay fees it would create an imbalance, and people would inevitably be kept out by financial concerns, whether there was grant or not - and there's always going to sectors excluded from such things - beuracracy being what it is.
From my viewpoint the fees are managed like a national Co-Op, everyone pays their bit, and if they choose to go for 3rd level, they can without having to stump up for a large sum.
The points system is wrong imo, to base an assesment of someone's abilities on a few written examinations is ludricous.
It makes everything more flexible and better tbh.

Stephen

Well said, Syxpak.

Cork: you sir, are an idiot.

Lump

Yea, I would like to expand on the Civil servants not being able to get a grant. If I was to go in to college, my mother would automatically be excluded from getting a grant, even though she is on job sharing, because my granny is not well. Also my parents are seperated and my dad has no income at the moment. All he has are his savings. But because my mother is seen to be in a "High Paying job" I would not recieve a grant. All I can say is thank god my prents both put money in to a college fund when each of their children were born. Also thank god they had the chance to save the money. Ahould some one be denied the chance of a profession just because they can afford it? You might say that some one is denied shopping or other amterial goods because they can't afford it, but if a person goes to college and gets a degree, they are going to be paying income tax to the government each year. For example, my mother pays %48 income tax........ So almost half of her wages goes to the governtment, I think that in one year now that she is working as a teacher she would have cleared the cost of the government putting her through college.

The re-introduction of fees doesn't effect me, but I wouldn't like to have worked my balls off for 6 years in secondary school to get in to an engineering degree course, just to find out that I need to be minted to complete the course after carrying it out for a year.


If the do have to introduce this fee, wouldn't it be a better idea to introduce it in three years, so people in college at the moment can finish out their course and those coming up the ladder can decide what to do, either by working and saving, getting a loan, or just not going to college.



John

Cork

If you were a part time student – you have to pay fees.

You are paying taxation providing others with free fees.

We need to encourage participation in 3rd level education. The most equitable way to do this is by our grants system. The maintenance grant is inadequate.

But I concede there is a large burden on familys with more than one going to college. I think that the government could provide interest free loans to these students. The Labour government is doing this in the UK at the moment.

I have a problem with the government hiking the registeration fees. My problem is where does this money go. I think it started off as a payment for examination fees and for student capitation. It now seems to be yet another form of tax.

The government should reintroduce fees while abolishing the registeration fee.

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

I would say courses that fail to send participants out into the world without skills after 4 years need to be looked at.

Engineering, Science & Business are fine. A lot of options contained in Arts degrees are not.

many Universities ahve "back-doors" into their courses now through such programmes and courses.

I agree education needs to be opened up. But Free fees consumes a lot of resources that could be used more fairly in an equitable way.

Lump

Havent you just changed you mind completly? The intrest free loans are stupid, some students I am in college with are going to walk out of college with 20,000 Sterling worth of debts, thats not a good thing to have hanging over you.



John

Cork

Havent you just changed you mind completly?

Nope - I've taken your arguements on boards and re-formulated my openion.

I think that the registration fee is defacto fees. I think that in future years this will be increased. This is why, we are debaing the concept of "Free Fees".

I think that the maintenace grant is pretty low. It needs to be increased. But - I think "Free Fees" is not equitable.

It makes it easier for some Super Rich to send their kids to college. Why do part time under graduate students have to pay these fees?

The whole thing is not very equitable or fair. I think the grants system is a fairer methout to target resources.

Cork: you sir, are an idiot.

I have been to college - graduated and am spending my Summer in the Cork riveriera.

Cork

The real cost of a years tuition was estimated to average €30,000 per annum in the Herald this week. Now the students are being asked to pay less than 1% of this cost and they think there getting a rough deal?

They are getting it pretty easy

Despite DCU being 'next door' the % of Ballymun residents (a town of 30,000 people) going to DCU is next to none.

Full college fees need to be reintroduced now & the grants system needs to be reformed to encourage greater participation.

Now the people of ballymun (along with all other taxpayers) are supposed to pick up the tab for those young people who do attend college?

The state paying third level fees makes no sense. It is unfair and not equitable.

I think you should all get interest free student loans, and get the privilige to pay back in full The Cost Of Your College Education to the irish taxpayer.

Makes perfect sense. The grants system needs reform. Many students look to their parents for support. Many students take out loans from Banks. Government interest free loans is the way to go.

Cork

The intrest free loans are stupid, some students I am in college with are going to walk out of college with 20,000 Sterling worth of debts, thats not a good thing to have hanging over you.

It is more stupid expecting the state to support you.

Guess what, your daddys taxes does not pay for your 3rd level education, or even come close

You should never be afraid to pay you way in life.

JustHalf

Originally posted by SyxPak
Name 3 sunshine
In fact, name 1.

Arts.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Cork
You should never be afraid to pay you way in life.

It's rather fortunate that I'm in a (relatively) well-paid job at the moment, or I wouldn't be able to afford the 280 Euro hike. I can afford to pay for these fees.

Imagine if my parents had to pay for all three of their children. That would change the cost from 1170 Euro (excluding University/College levies) to 2010 Euro. An 840 Euro increase, that some families are expected to raise within 2/3 months.

That's just wrong.

The least they could have done is given us a decent warning.

Lump

Originally posted by JustHalf
Arts.

I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?



John

Cork

Imagine if my parents had to pay for all three of their children. That would change the cost from 1170 Euro (excluding University/College levies) to 2010 Euro. An 840 Euro increase, that some families are expected to raise within 2/3 months

Imagine - how much your parents are saving if you all had to go to collegev 6/7 yaers ago.

The grants system may not be the fairest system in the world - but it targets scarce resources. Giving free frees to all is a reckless use of taxpayers money.

I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?

You have completed misquoted me:

i said:

Engineering, Science & Business are fine. A lot of options contained in Arts degrees are not.

Ring up UCD or Trinity and get a list of various arts degrees options. They are some that are as useful as rain gear on a summers day.

JustHalf

Do you or do you not agree that the warning given was insufficient?

JustHalf

Originally posted by Lump
I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?

'tis a joke, like.

beardedchicken

quote:

---

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SyxPak
Name 3 sunshine
In fact, name 1.

---

Arts.

Ring up UCD or Trinity and get a list of various arts degrees options. They are some that are as useful as rain gear on a summers day.

screw you!! there is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a useless qualification, be it degree, diploma, cert, whatever. how dare you criticise a course that i and many of my friends are working our asses off to get through, with a view to eventually being valuable members of society and the economy. it's all to easy to rag on arts students, but you don't seem to realise the diverse areas of society and industry arts graduates end up in. the list is endless!- teachers, government officials, psychologists, social workers, media professionals, musicians, etc etc all arts graduates!!!!!!!!!!

and before you ask, yes, i am paying my own way through college, with some help from my parents, as i am not entitled to a grant, despite the fact that my father is retired. this means i, like most people, have to have a part time job, to pay for books, transport to and from college, and the rest of the thousand and one different expenses that mount up in our so-called free education system.

Ruaidhri

ok sorry to bring this back on topic for a few mins BUT
do you know why there is an increse?
because the governmant is going to overspend by €900m(according to them it's around €300m i think)
so they are pinching pennies left right and center. there waas €40m taken away from broadband for the next 6 months aswell as other increses.

and who voted these idiots back into power?
us. we did.

that's the short of it(although labour had my vote)

and yes i'm REALLY píssed about the whole thing.but bitching wont change it. e-mail that fúckwit(his e-mail is somewhere on this thread) protest.do SOMETHING.

po0k

I voted independents and greens simply cos there was no-one else to vote for.
FineFáil are a dirty shower of codgers, and Fine Gael are the same, only try to act more like nobs.

The country's going to shíte before our eyes.

Cork

I think that slagging off the present government is petty. The government was elected in open & fair elections. I am not interested - who any of you voted for.

The government has increased registeration fees.

Is this fair?

No. They should have abolished the registeration fee and reintroduced fees. The gap bewteen rich & poor has widened in this country. Why do the "well off" need to be subsidised to go to college?

There is an inequality in third level education. We need to open the third level option to all. Third level education in Ireland was once the preserve of the "well to do".

Paying the fees of such people does not open the system up to all.

There is a grants system for those who have low to moderate income levels. The maintenance grant with these is very low and needs to be addressed.

The whole "ECONOMIC BENEFIT" arguement is a complete non starter - The better off people will continue to go to college (same as they ever did).

Free Fees was an error. I think that we were copying the old British system at the time. They have moved onto loans. I think that the government will continue to increase the registeration fees as opposed to increasing tuition fees. But I think that the should have the courage of their convictions and reintroduce fees.

There is however a very strong middle class lobby group. These people opposed the property tax successfully. They need to be taken on. There is still a very large black economy out there (are teachers who give grinds declaring this to the revenue) - we need a whisle blowers charter.

Free Fees is unjust. It was ill tought out and a waste of scarce resources. If fees are reintroduced the grants system will still facilitate payment of fees for many,

The Grants system is a means test. It is fairer. Free fees is such a waste of resouces that could be spent on new schools, extra teachers of hospitals.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Free Fees was an error. I think that we were copying the old British system at the time. They have moved onto loans. I think that the government will continue to increase the registeration fees as opposed to increasing tuition fees. But I think that the should have the courage of their convictions and reintroduce fees.

Free Fees was not an error.

Before "free fees" was introduced, a significantly larger proportion of students went abroad to study - typically to some British Uni, purely because it was vastly cheaper to do so.

Due to the scarcity in jobs in Ireland at the time, a lot of these people never returned.

The introduction of free fees was an attempt to convince students to stay in Ireland, which would then cause them to look for a job in Ireland, which would ultimately benefit the economy.

To call this a mistake is ridiculous - it was one of the smartest moves a government in this country has ever made in terms of tackling the "brain drain" we suffered by exporting our youth.

As for the current situation...I'd love people to actually show the maths indicating how much better off we'd all be if we implemented the system they propose.

University fees, in Ireland, unsubsidised run to about €10,000 a year. I know, because my GF tried checking study prices for her to come to Ireland and being non-EU, she would be completely unsibsidised.

That would make a typical 4-year degree cost in the region of €40,000, just for the basic tuition and use of facilities.

If we are glibly talking about "no free handouts" and going back to a grant-based system, then lets be honest about it. Lets get rid of all tax-payers subsidies, and go to a €10,000 per year university bill, and figure out how to provide for that.

Now, will someone please tell me how to subsidise that, on a case-by-case basis, in a fair manner which is neither disciminatory to the rich nor the poor, which will not result in Ireland becoming a nation like Switzerland where university is self-funded almost in its entirety, and where only the tiniest of percentages of people actually attend college.

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by Cork

The government has increased registeration fees.

Is this fair?

No. They should have abolished the registeration fee and reintroduced fees. The gap bewteen rich & poor has widened in this country. Why do the "well off" need to be subsidised to go to college?

I've held my tongue upto this point. But Cork, you are for want of a better expression, a f@king idiot, on this subject.

Abolish registration and introduce fees? ALl fine and well in theory .. BUT ...

At what point do you determine "well off". As has been mentioned by many here, the grant system is corrupt and totally unhinged, and those that should be getting the grant aren't because their family members are part-time civil servants, or are retired, or what-not.

Further more ... thinking that abolishing registration and introducing fees and upping the grant system is going to cost you (and me) less in taxes is WAYYY off the mark. They'd need to expand the grant eligibility to take in a larger scope of people, and where do you think that grant money is going to come from?? You and Me. So you're right back to square one, only there's a drop in those able to go to college.

The well-off will be able to do it anyway, and the poorest of the poor (of which many seem to value "education" just below taking a piss over a paying job) are able to go. Everyone else, including you and me, can go take a dump.

The whole "ECONOMIC BENEFIT" arguement is a complete non starter - The better off people will continue to go to college (same as they ever did).

So all those middle-class people who were suddenly able to go and then fill up IT jobs, etc didn't help fuel our economy?

The Grants system is a means test. It is fairer. Free fees is such a waste of resouces that could be spent on new schools, extra teachers of hospitals.

As for the means test being fairer than free-fees ... see my above mention about the grant system.

Cork

At what point do you determine "well off". As has been mentioned by many here, the grant system is corrupt and totally unhinged, and those that should be getting the grant aren't because their family members are part-time civil servants, or are retired,

They are few retired people who are on great income - The vast majority of people who are retired - their sons or daughters will qualify for grants.

Why is the grants system "corrupt and totally unhinged"?

Are people forging P60s?

Course not.

So all those middle-class people who were suddenly able to go and then fill up IT jobs, etc didn't help fuel our economy?

I know many IT people working on assembly lines - FYI the IT boom has passed.

Further more ... thinking that abolishing registration and introducing fees and upping the grant system is going to cost you (and me) less in taxes is WAYYY off the mark

It won't cost much more - It would be a more fairer & equitable system.

You have failed to mention how inequitable paying fees to the well to do is.

The minister who introduced this measure has now failed twice being elected to the Dail.

Lemming

Originally posted by Cork


They are few retired people who are on great income - The vast majority of people who are retired - their sons or daughters will qualify for grants.

Why is the grants system "corrupt and totally unhinged"?

Have yiou not listened to anything I, or more importantly, others have said on this thread already about getting grants?

Several people here have posted their PERSONAL experiences in attempting to get Grants.

I know many IT people working on assembly lines - FYI the IT boom has passed.

So suddenly having an IT trained workforce isn't worth sh*t anymore?

In order to attract, you have to have the facilities, especially in the far more demanding economic environment we face today.

Do you have myopic vision?? I'm just curious.

It won't cost much more - It would be a more fairer & equitable system.

Stop living in cloud-cuckoo land. It's already been spelt out just how unfair and inequitable the grant system is. And you propose that the VAST majority of people in this country are thrown to its mercy?

I wonder what the stats were on 3rd level education before free-fees. That'd make for interesting reading.

You have failed to mention how inequitable paying fees to the well to do is.

Capitalism's a bitch, eh? So you want to punish those who have been successful, whilst stopping everyone else from availing of 3rd level, since only the wealthy will be able to afford it anyway. Yeahh ... that's a great idea.

What do you want to do? Make the well-off pay more, whilst allowing the other extreme pay less? That's called discrimination and ends in unpleasant court cases.

All you're doing is punishing EVERYONE in an attempt to make things more "just".