Minimum cpu/fsb/psu's

TacT

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yoink now ABIT and Gf3/4s and there problems and some info can be found here at viahardware there are some nice suggestions in there and workarounds different people used and what they did if they couldn't get it to work etc.........

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As for the minimum specs to take advantage of a tasty graphics card, well for start you will need

Power Supply - 300/350Watts and try to avoid codegen!

Motherboard - Make sure you have an agp 2.0 compliant board with at least ATA 66/100 support. Make sure you read your manual to check before you buy it and ensure you have all the bios options you will need in there. And possibly voltage regulation/good overclocking options.

Ram - At the very least 128mb pc133, get 256, it's cheap enough!
(if the cpu supports pc100 then still go get pc133 as it will leave overhead should you desire to overclock) these days I rarely build a system with less than 256mb mainly because it's not as expensive as it used to be and is of the essence Make sure you get cas 2-2-2 because there are sticks which are cas 2-3-3 where they will hold a higher latency and reduce your bandwidth, v.noticeable in gaming. (In general I've found an agp aperture size that is twice the ram available on board of the graphics card to be beneficial)

CPU - You will need at least a 700-900Mhz cpu for a decent graphics card to take advantage of the system and give you smoth gameplay on "most" of the games available today (depends on motherboards performance, make sure it has 4-way memory interleaving). Personally I have found that 1.0Ghz is a sweet spot and try and remember if you are going above this speed your graphics card could become the bottleneck from here on (mainly the mx line of cards/gf2 line) or your ram if you are using pc133/pc100.

Hard disk - should only impact loading times of games so to remain patient I advise you get ATA 66/100 support at least (make sure to go into your device manager and enable dma for the ide devices/cd-r drives to take advantage of this) It's up to you what size you want but try to leave some overhead. Often is the case that a drive that is 10GB bigger will only be a small bit more than what you are getting so go with the bigger option budget allowing.

keep giving ideas and please add your own here, we get a load of posts every week referring to this stuff so pls pitch in! shall update at a later stage

Stephen

What is wrong with Codegen psu's?

TacT

they tend to be made with cheap components and crappy fans which cause them to overheat along with the rest of your lovely system, out of 10 I bought only 5 are still alive and one of them is starting to overheat

zAbbo

Hard Drives - Speed- 5400 v 7200. Personally i`d go for a 7200 smaller drive than a big seek time 5400. Your views, and as for ata66/100/133, never really noticed the difference

TacT

indeed, cheers for bringing it up!
Obviously you want to go for a 7200rpm as opposed to a 5400 rpm drive. The lower the seek time the better. There is not much difference between ata 66/100 but there is a big difference between ata 33 and 100. The larger the cache the better, the latest fancy big boys with 8mb cache are indeed tasty, but I find that the 2mb cache should be plenty sufficient and will save you a few quid in the long run.

I would go buy two 20GB 7200rpm WD before I went and bought a 40GB 7200rpm WD because access times on the 20GB will be lower afaik, must check up, can anyone verify? and if you lose a hdd you lose 20GB's of info (but you have backups right!? not 40GB :eek:
Thus I would definitely not go and buy a 120GB drive and make it my primary partition, better to get a smaller drive for the os and use the big boys for storage but do back it up

To conclude, from my point of view if I wanted 80GB of storage space I would either go for 2x40GB or 1x20GB and 1x60GB
I would favour getting one 10/20GB for os then one/two more for storage.

It depends what you need really, pcirl I'm sure you could give us your views and not ask me to give mine because unfortunately I only know a little and am not fond of pretending to know more than I do, I believe all the above is correct, if it isn't please let me know what I can add/remove/change so that everyone may benefit from this, thanks. Could anyone else with 2mins please give their input or slate my incompetent advice please?

zAbbo

I`m a RAID fan myslef but you`re right on the backups. Once i get an OS running ok, i ghost it onto a HDD or CDR, I usually make a small (3gb) partition for the OS.

Also when you`re talking about RAM, crazy not to go for DDR. I know what if you ain`t got a DDR board. There are a couple of DIMM and DDR boards which means you could buy that use your DIMM RAM and upgrade when you`ve got the funds.

TacT

Indeed, don't worry about having a ddr processor (you can get that later) but you will need to get a ddr/rdr compatible motherboard to get some nice memory bandwidth (games and design/sound). DDR is a good bit cheaper, make sure you get cas2 as a lot of places have 2.5cl sticks for sale and any latency on ram is bad in terms of performance but can help to stabilise a system.

Rdram is only available for the pentium 4 while ddr is available for the pentium 4 and amd based systems.
When you take into account the money you paid for your p4 chip I'm sure you may want to save a few quid on the ram at the cost of a bit of bandwidth by getting ddr and waiting for rdram prices to come down which they apparently already have.

Gerry

Agreed on the codegen psu's, they are dodgy as ****. Very poor build quality (fan wires melting onto heatsink being the most obvious thing), and poor performance also. Their 300w model struggled to run a tbird 1.2 ( voltage dropping loads on 3.3v line).

Smaller hard drives used to be faster, but theres no real difference any more. Hard drives from the same line with different capacities will normally have the same performance.

I know that the ibm 75gxp line ranged from 1 to 5 15 gig platters ( 15 to 75 gigs) and were found to have identical performance.

I do think its a good idea to have 2 hard drives ok, and backup your important stuff.

Dimm and ddr boards are a no no, they are usually based on ali chipsets which is well behind on performance and compatibility to todays chipsets. I think also the ecs sis735 based board is similar, again stay away.

Extra latency on ram will only stabilise a system if the chipset or ram isn't up to running at lower latencies, if a system is specced to run at cas2, it should not be any more stable running 2.5.

The biggest difference in ata controllers is between ata33 and ata66, since todays drives are capable of sustained transfers of 40mb/sec + , this maxes out ata33 but not ata66. Ata66 also adds some extra reliability.

If you are going all out for a fast p4 system, you will want to go for pc1066 rdram ( ie if you are buying a high end p4 chip), otherwise just get ddr 333. DDR 266 will give decent performance, but you are slowing the machine down.

Fidelis

Originally posted by Gerry
Their 300w model struggled to run a tbird 1.2 ( voltage dropping loads on 3.3v line

I've got a Codgen 300w PSU on my XP-1700. What do you mean by struggled? I haven't noticed any really hot air coming from the PSU so far (4-5 months). Also, what do you mean by "dropping loads"? I've managed to blow the main house fuse on more than a dozen occassions (one time setting the alarm off aswell )
Could an unusually expensive ESB bill be attributed to this cheap design?

Gerry

Well, the 300w I am talking about was a long time ago, though I did notice about 6 months later that the codegen 300w on sale was still the same one, same specs. The tbird was not running at default voltage, so it would be drawing more power than your 1700+. What I mean by dropping loads is that in hardware monitor, the 5v line was dropping from its normal 5v to around 4.6, showing that it was not really able to take the strain. About your house fuse, if that ever blows straight away when you switch your psu on, well theres a problem there ok, perhaps its shorting the mains momentarily ( I'm really just guessing here ).

Inspector Gadget

I have the misfortune to have a Codegen 300W PSU in my box; in addition, however, I also have an Epox 8KTA3+ mobo, and while both of these are known for low +5 line measurements, mine's holding at 4.78, which is just barely within ATX specs (5V +/- 5%, last time I checked, which equates to 4.75 - 5.25V) Seems to be holding up just fine, though...

Okay, blowing the "house fuse" is a bit suspect. Are you sure it's a fuse and not a circuit breaker? (Circuit breakers are physically similar to switches, and can be "reset" after they trip; fuses must be replaced). If you blew a "main fuse", you're in serious trouble; most PC power leads would melt/catch fire if subjected to that for more than a handful of seconds - you'd notice the smell of burning plastic if you were using this kind of power on a regular basis . We're talking a bloody-hell-the-lights-are-dimming moment here.

If it was a circuit breaker that tripped, it could be dodgy house wiring or a short in the PSU itself (line or neutral to earth, or line-to-neutral) causing earth leakage. This would trip instantaneously though (less than one second after the load appearing).

Realistically, the PC and monitor shouldn't be drawing much more than 5A once the PC is up and running (although there'll be a noticeable surge in current when the system is is powered up).

Gadget

Fidelis

Originally posted by Inspector Gadget
Are you sure it's a fuse and not a circuit breaker

Yea, I blew the big f*ck off main fuse which, in turn, set off the house alarm system I have tripped the circuit breaker on numerous occasions but that's when I have about seven plugs going into a two-socket wall outlet via a 4-way extension unit and another 3-way adaptor plug.

most PC power leads would melt/catch fire

I don't know if this has any relevance, but the top/back (where my PSU is located)of my case is generally quite hot.

This would trip instantaneously though (less than one second after the load appearing

Sometimes, if I have a load of equipment plugged in, and I plug the computer in, it can blow the circuit breaker. This is without even turning the computer on.

Do low voltage supplies to the computer result in crashes etc.? That might explain a bit then, I think MoboProbe was trying to warn me about low voltage but I turned the alarms & flashing lights off because they were annoying the pants off me. Anyway, I'm thinking about picking up an Antec/Enermax 330w/350w PSU sometime soon, hopefully that'll cure what ails me

Inspector Gadget

The main fuse supplying an entire house should only blow under exceptional circumstances - running a couple of welders, or perhaps exposed electrical connections being flooded, but in most cases the circuit breakers should trip first. I should think you'd have to have the immersion heater, the electric shower, the kettle, the washing machine, the dryer, the dishwasher, and every other power-thirsty appliance you own all on at the same time to blow what should be about a 60A fuse under normal circumstances. Although, the initial surge when a couple of the thirstier ones of these are turned at the same moment would be enough too...

To answer your question, though, a low mains voltage will adversely affect most electrical items; however, this mostly applies to items featuring transformers and/or motors, such as TVs and hoovers, will suffer more as lower voltage = higher current to achieve the same power, and as such it can burn out windings.

Low voltage at the 3.3/5/12 volt rails can definitely harm your computer. The low voltage = high current thing applies again, and it can be possible (in extreme cases) that low voltages on your rails can push your PSU past what it can supply current-wise, (although it would be fine if the voltage was up) and kill your PSU.

Also, a "hot" PSU suggests it may be getting close to the upper limit of what it can deliver, or it could just as easily be that your airflow is rubbish, or that the fan(s) are on the way out. Are you getting a good flow of air out the back?

Gadget

Fidelis

Originally posted by Inspector Gadget
The main fuse supplying an entire house should only blow under exceptional

My pc/monitor/speakers/tv/radio/cooker/fridge/dishwasher & possibly the kettle/toaster.

Are you getting a good flow of air out the back?

Not really. I've only got the PSU fan & a low-rpm exhaust fan expelling the hot air out the back. I'm installing two 80mm case fans in the next week or two. For the moment, the temps I'm getting are in the low-mid forties. The PSU fan doesn't seem to be doing much though, it's spinning quite slow.

I must check those voltage readings on my pc later tonight, hopefully all my crashes are due to a cheapo PSU and not my home's electrical wiring!

Cheers for the help

Gerry

Unfortunately most psu manufacturers these days think its great to have "temperature controlled" fans which never actually spin any faster, even when the psu is getting hammered out of it. Only thing to do is open the psu, cut the fan power wires, extend the wires, bring them out of the psu and wire the fan to a higher voltage.

Fidelis

Vccp1 = 1.76
Vccp2 = 2.51 (flashing red)
+5Vsb = 4.92
+3.3V = 3.25
+5V = 4.95
+12V = 12.54 *this jumps to 12.89 when I open applications etc.
-5V = -6.01 (flashing red) *this jumps to -6.21 when I open applications etc.
-12V = -11.68
Vbat = 2.03 (flashing red)

Cutting/rewiring PSU fan cables? Higher voltage? Gerry, I'm too young to die

Inspector Gadget

Fidelis:

Your +3.3, +5 and +12 rails are within spec (3.14-3.46v, 4.75-5.25v and 11.4-12.6v being the respective limits, according to the ATX 2.03 spec)

Your -5v rail is a bit off; I suspect it's being misread, and your -12v rail looks fine too.

Your battery voltage is a bit low; a new lithium coin cell should be pumping out about 3.2v. Does your system "forget" the time if you unplug it from the wall for a minute or two?

Also, the Vccp2 reading being so high may be something to do with you only having one CPU in your system... I'm guessing? Have you a dual mobo or something (Vccp1 is fine for an Athlon XP)?

(By the way, the "higher voltage" Gerry's referring to is only +12VDC... but if you do open your PSU, be well careful as there are capacitors (big can-shaped objects) that can store large quantities of charge for years, even if the device is left plugged out, only to electrocute some poor unsuspecting sod.)

Gadget

Fidelis

Originally posted by Inspector Gadget
Does your system "forget" the time if you unplug it from the wall for a minute or two?

Nope.

Have you a dual mobo or something

Nah, ECS K7S5A. Single 1700+XP chip. I take it that Vccp2 is for a second cpu, nothing to worry about then. Thanks for the help

The_Bullman

Running a
TBird 1.2
1 gig of RAM
Geforce 3Ti200
2 hard drives
floppy
audigy platinum
modem
NIC
DXR3 DVD Card
and 2 case fans
all this on an Astec 200W power supply
So who needs a 300W PSU i say.

Inspector Gadget

Originally posted by The_Bullman
all this on an Astec 200W power supply

...and a prayer? :eek:

Gadget

CuLT

Correct me if i'm wrong here (i don't think i am),
But i remember that in a manual i have somewhere, that RD ram has a lower bandwith than ddr, also it has 16 bit technology as opposed to ddr's 64bit.
And from what i hear rd ram has quite high latency making games annoyingly choppy, ive seen examples.

In fact the only redeeming quality of rd ram is the fact that it has a 400Mhz bus.

Not only is ddr the better budget choice, but its the better choice for anyone who intends to use they're pc for games better than invaders.

TacT

I was under the impression that with the bandwidth it overcame the latency issues early on and that Q3 to pick a quick example gets plenty more fps with rdram than ddr?

BabyEater

bandwidth(in bytes) is bus speed * bus width * edge trigering /8
for RD this is 400*16*2 /8=1600MB/s
for ddr this is 133*64*2 /8=2128MB/s
but the effective bandwith of RD is much higher than DDR so RD has a higher bandwidth than DDR

Inspector Gadget

...doesn't that last calculation neglect two things:

• Rambus has to be installed (and operated) in pairs, so the overall bandwidth has to be taken as the output from a pair of RIMMs, yes?
• There's PC1066 (533MHz) Rambus on the market now for the new Northwood B's with 533MHz FSB...

Gadget

Matfinn

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering is a 300 watt power supply sufficient to power a machine of this spec


Amd Athlon XP 2100+ 1.67Ghz
Suntek Prestige ATX Midi Silver 300W Case
512mb PC2100 DDR Sdram ( 1 Stick )
60 GB Maxtor DiamondMax D740x Ata133
Gigabyte SoA GVRXP motherBoard
thermalTake SoA Volcano 7+ coolant fan
8cm Chassis Fan
Abit Siluro GeForce 2 MX200 32MB AGP Retail VO
Pioneer 16xDVD 48xCD Int IDE OEM
Philips CD-RW 40r 24w 12rw Int IDE
Microsoft IntelliMouse OEM PS/2
Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard
Sony 1.44MB Internal 3.5"


Or would you reccomend i get a new Power supply?

Thanks for your advice

Matt

Gerry

Psu's with the same overall rating can vary dramatically in performance. If the psu in your case is good quality, it will be fine. Throw a few stability tests at the machine, see how it fares. Only buy a new psu if necessary.

Gerry

Erm, WRT Rambus: It is normally configured in 2 channels, which gives 3.2gb of bandwidth for pc800, and 4.2gb for pc1066.

Cultellus, the p4 is designed to compensate for the high latency of rdram, so its effective latency is only very slightly lower when using ddr. And the additional bandwidth of rambus is worth far more to the p4. You are going on hearsay, where have you seen examples of games being "choppy"? As tac says, q3 flies with rdram.

Bit of a faulty analogy with "The only reason its faster is because it has a 400mhz bus". Look at what you are saying, it doesn't make sense. Its like saying "The only reason a ferrari is faster than a fiesta is because it has 6 times more horsepower".

It has been proven, even by people like thomas pabst ( www.tomshardware.com ) who railed against rambus's business practises for a long time, and did everything to promote ddr, that rdram offers more bandwidth for the p4. Quite some time ago, they realised that for high end p4's, only pc1066 rdram is able to provide enough bandwidth. DDR400 provides almost as much, but that isn't available yet, and pc1200 will overwhelm that again. Only with dual channel ddr will rambus finally be overtaken. Right now though, pc1066 offers the best performance. Go off and read up on this stuff before shooting your mouth off about stuff you know nothing about.

longword

Originally posted by Gerry
Only with dual channel ddr will rambus finally be overtaken

nVidia's nForce chipset offers that now. Such a pity the Athlon it interfaces to can only take 2.1GB/sec on a good day :-(

ozt9vdujny3srf

Reading this thread mkes me very very very very worried, i recent;y built a new pc(my first ever that i built my self)on a very tight budget, i bought the components from peats.

the 1st thing that worrys me is that i did it for 350 euro

the spec is :

AMD athlon xp 1900+
Gigabyte 7zxe motherboard
codegen 300 watt psu
256mb sdram 133mhz

Thats wat i paid for,
my hard drive is 3gb and a piece of ****.

i also scabbed a tnt2 off my friend.

is this pc rubbish, if so wat can i do to improve, and did i make a massive mistake by using peats(who are probably very expensive)

Also(more n00b questions) i have an isdn modem i bought for 50EUR and my network card cost me 20, is 1 128k modem as good as the next

Thx

Myg

You can get 2.7gb/s if you can afford to get the XPs with the 333 Mhz bus.

Gerry

Dual ddr is now available for the p4, with the intel e7205 chipset. The asus p4g8x is a decent board available with this chipset, overclocks well also. If it is run at 166 bus, its a bit faster than pc1066.