Fianna Fà l are crap!!!!!!!!!!

fisifan01

why does every1 rate Fianna Fàil so highly. They are the side that betrayed and murdered Michael Collins during the civil war. De valera is the most rediculously overrated person in irish history he kept the church in control. his view was an ireland with people living in thatched roofed houses and one that was not involved with world affairs. Due to reckless borrowing of money by the Fianna Fàil government in the 1970s ireland plunged into recession. In the past 5 years of FF/PD government. housing costs have quadrupled. Prices have risen whilst funds for our schools have not. They want to sell off our state institions to heartless multinational corporations. Ireland is still suffering as a result of the Damage caused by Devalera. Our roads are the worst in western europe. By wasting taxpayers money on a national stadium bertie is using soccer as an opium for people who are suffering under a system with a crap health service. There is a shortfall in income tax revenue and yet the government are still insisting on low taxation. if you ask me people who vote for fianna fail are too sentimental and fail to realise that the slogon "republican party" is just a propaganda tool in order to manipulate people into voting for them.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

And the alternative is....!?

Elmo

FG = Fine Grand

Sure everything that you have done to this country over the past 70 odd years has been terrible FF.

Sure we are the party, we went over to England with a extremist and came back with a moderate, back with the treaty and all. Sure Micheal Collins is your only man. Sure after he signed the treaty he wouldnt hurt a fly not even the english. All he would do is rather then have a war with England was to have a Civil war with His own people.

Sure we have had the best governments in the history of the state, we brought in the Mother and Child Scheme through the 1947 Health Act put Through by The Previous FF government but then with had the Agrument with the catholic Church and the doctors and well we relly couldnt pass it then even when they gave the go ahead to Noel Brown and then we had to dissovle the first inter party goverment and then the next FF government brought in the Mother And Child Scheme which gives free health care to all Mothers and Children. But then that idea came from the Clann Na Publacat party didnt it, so actullaly we had nothing really to do with that.

We brought in Free Thrid Level Education wait no that was Labour's Minister for Education (Naimh Branoch, spelling???) and sure they were in power with FF a year before they dissolved that government.

Sure we have had 4 different leaders in the last 10 year I mean that must be a record, sure if we can have 4 leaders in 10 years what do you think we can do in the next 5 years for our country.

Oh yes dont mention The Hep C sandal or Micheal Lowry (And he did better then us in the GE)

Sure We're just fine no wait we're Grand.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Elmo,

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Where did I say I'm a Fianna Fail supporter in my reply. I'm merely trying to find out what Mr/Ms. fisifan01 believes the alternatives are not topump Fianna Fail. Its very easy to get up and procrastenate wildly without actually adding anything to the debate.


--
As for FG...
If my gum was not so numb with novacane from visiting the dentist today, I would laugh. If FG *ever* get more than 5 seats than they currently have, I'll eat my hat(s). By their own admission they admit they cannot lead the country.

bonkey

Originally posted by fisifan01
[BDue to reckless borrowing of money by the Fianna Fàil government in the 1970s ireland plunged into recession. In the past 5 years of FF/PD government. housing costs have quadrupled. [/B]

I see. Balanced view you're giving there. Blame FF for Ireland getting caught in the worldwide recession, but instead of giving equal credit for them being around when Ireland got caught in the worlwide economic boom, we'll complain about houseprices.

How about this :

In the 1970s, Fianna Fails actions led to drastic reductions in the pricing of housing, making it far more affordable to the common man. In the last 10 years, they have successfully managed to turn Ireland's economy into the envy of most other nations.

Well - its about as accurate and honest a reflection on what actually happened as yours was.

As for blaming FF for the actions of deV (the politician, as opposed to our lord and overfiend Tom) and the assasination of MC....I suppose you blame all Germans for WW2 as well. Dont even try telling me its different - I know its different. WW2 was far more recent. There are plenty of Germans who were around back then who are still alive. There are very few members/supporters of FF around today who were alive when Collins was shot and all the rest. So it is different - my comparison is arguably more relevant than yours.

Sheesh.....I could have (partly) understood a rant like this one before the election, but afterwards?

jc

donaloconnor

I think that the whole lot of the partys are fools, don't know what the hell they are doing, but i personally prefer FF, runs in the family my grandad wont buy Barrys tea because they are linked the fine gail. lol, i'm 15 and allready interested in politics :P

b20uvkft6m5xwg

15 years old...Pfff

I've been interested in politics since I was 8 years old, when my old man was Brian Lenihans Private Secretary.

Yer only a lighweight

donaloconnor

oh cool My great grand uncle, Captain Patrick O connor, was the first man to go into battle in the easter rising, he was a brave man and lead the soldiers to battle...heehe he also came first in the united nations for law + We get christmas cards from The minister of Justice. hehe

donaloconnor

there is also a monument dedicated to him outside cahills bar in rathmore, on the N72 road

Elmo

They want to sell off our state institions to heartless multinational corporations.

Ironically they set up most of the state institions because

his view was an ireland with people living in thatched roofed houses and one that was not involved with world affairs.

Due to reckless borrowing of money by the Fianna Fàil government in the 1970s ireland plunged into recession.

Have you forgotten Sean Lemass government in the 1960 when Ireland was stopping umemployment and immigration.

Again Ironically we had just joined the EEC at the time (1973) and Ireland began into a state of recession and we may see that now with the Euro change over of the 1990 and yet we are not a
country that considers this a good thing ...

his view was an ireland with people living in thatched roofed houses and one that was not involved with world affairs.

Ireland is still suffering as a result of the Damage caused by Devalera

What ???? What has Devalera got to do us at the moment. He was not the first Taoiseach and he wasnt the last.

Oh by the way you forget that DeValera brought in Housing for the poor and redid many of the countries council estate at the time. He stopped paying Land Inuities to the british (FG and the first Inter party government stopped farmers paying it altogether). He got rid of the oath to the Queen and brought in a new consitution in 1932 which put ireland in the position to be a republic all but in name and thus kept links to the Six Counties through the Commonwealth (yet FG in 1949 declared a republic, and broke the stepping stones that Micheal Collins talked about).

Finna Fail may not be the cleanest party in the Dail but it is a party that has the guts to do thinks that FG would not. FG beleive in a Laise A Fair police in Ireland ie leave it it will be Fine it will be Grand.

I dislike the PD and personal would perfer to see Labour and FF in Government.

FG holier then art do attitude dose not get them votes and is off putting.

Labout, SF, the greens, the indepentents got more votes then FG because people fell that they (Labour SF .....) will do things for the country.

The PD's got in to keep an Eye on FF. Not because people beleive in PD policies.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Where did I say I'm a Fianna Fail supporter in my reply. I'm merely trying to find out what Mr/Ms. fisifan01 believes the alternatives are not topump Fianna Fail. Its very easy to get up and procrastenate wildly without actually adding anything to the debate.

Em its what FG do.(Procrastenate that is). Also i was just answering your question to reply to Fisifan.

What i am trying to do is to say that FF have done alot for this country and they have also done alot of bad things for this country just as the rest of the parties.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Min. of Justice...Pfff
--
(This could go all night)

The name Patrick O'Connor sounds familiar in that context for some reason. Good on him anyway:)

b20uvkft6m5xwg

To Elmo,
My only issue was with this...

Sure everything that you have done to this country over the past 70 odd years has been terrible FF.

The "You" being me as a supporter of FF.
Its no big deal, but just to let you know I'm not

donaloconnor

Originally posted by 80project


The name Patrick O'Connor sounds familiar in that context for some reason. Good on him anyway:)

Thanks

fisifan01

oh dont get me wrong i am no fine gael fan. even though there is a fine gael background in my family goin back to the civil war. im a labour,green and socialist party supporter. i would like to see a centre left coalition be formed. that may sound inconcievable but civil war politics have ended as we saw in the election

Elmo

Sure everything that you have done to this country over the past 70 odd years has been terrible FF.

You question was rhetorical

And the alternative is....!?

My Answer was Sarcastic I am no fan of FG Fine Grand (That was were the sarcasm started.)

FG = Fine Grand

Sure everything that you have done to this country over the past 70 odd years has been terrible FF.

Sure we are the party, we went over to England with a extremist and came back with a moderate, back with the treaty and all. Sure Micheal Collins is your only man. Sure after he signed the treaty he wouldnt hurt a fly not even the english. All he would do is rather then have a war with England was to have a Civil war with His own people.

Sure we have had the best governments in the history of the state, we brought in the Mother and Child Scheme through the 1947 Health Act put Through by The Previous FF government but then with had the Agrument with the catholic Church and the doctors and well we relly couldnt pass it then even when they gave the go ahead to Noel Brown and then we had to dissovle the first inter party goverment and then the next FF government brought in the Mother And Child Scheme which gives free health care to all Mothers and Children. But then that idea came from the Clann Na Publacat party didnt it, so actullaly we had nothing really to do with that.

We brought in Free Thrid Level Education wait no that was Labour's Minister for Education (Naimh Branoch, spelling???) and sure they were in power with FF a year before they dissolved that government.

Sure we have had 4 different leaders in the last 10 year I mean that must be a record, sure if we can have 4 leaders in 10 years what do you think we can do in the next 5 years for our country.

Oh yes dont mention The Hep C sandal or Micheal Lowry (And he did better then us in the GE)

Sure We're just fine no wait we're Grand.

Elmo

why does every1 rate Fianna Fàil so highly. They are the side that betrayed and murdered Michael Collins during the civil war. De valera is the most rediculously overrated person in irish history he kept the church in control. his view was an ireland with people living in thatched roofed houses and one that was not involved with world affairs. Due to reckless borrowing of money by the Fianna Fàil government in the 1970s ireland plunged into recession. In the past 5 years of FF/PD government. housing costs have quadrupled. Prices have risen whilst funds for our schools have not. They want to sell off our state institions to heartless multinational corporations. Ireland is still suffering as a result of the Damage caused by Devalera. Our roads are the worst in western europe. By wasting taxpayers money on a national stadium bertie is using soccer as an opium for people who are suffering under a system with a crap health service. There is a shortfall in income tax revenue and yet the government are still insisting on low taxation. if you ask me people who vote for fianna fail are too sentimental and fail to realise that the slogon "republican party" is just a propaganda tool in order to manipulate people into voting for them.

Your main message was about the civil war fisifan.

oh dont get me wrong i am no fine gael fan. even though there is a fine gael background in my family goin back to the civil war. im a labour,green and socialist party supporter. i would like to see a centre left coalition be formed. that may sound inconcievable but civil war politics have ended as we saw in the election

You would like an FG, Labour coalition????

Elmo

Is Barry's tea not FF (Joe Barry was a TD for FG or FF????)

Barry's Tea is the nicest tea in the world.

Actually think about Lyon's tea advertise for the more FF person with their resent tv advert.

God Barry's Tea FG tut tut tut. I won't ever be able to have a nice cup of tea now.

Big into Tea actuall still use Barry's Tea Leaves and all. (Seriously)

Tea has nothing to do with Politics.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I think he's referring to Peter Barry (FG), former TD and Minister for Foreign Affairs, whose family own Barry's Tea

donaloconnor

Well i hate lyons tea, and i just love barrys tea. It is the best really, but i don't give a sh*t who makes it lol. Its my grandad that won't buy barrys tea

Victor

Bread and circuses?

Cork

Fine Gael were always a party of businessmen, shop keepers, big farmers & people with big notions. They were gentlemen not politicians. They failed to stand up to the Church during the mother & Child scheme. They failed to stand up for democracy- the time of the blue shirts. They failed to stand up against Britain the time of the economic war.

I would say that the only thing they achieved for Ireland was the Tallaght strategy. Look at the way – the treated Alan Dukes.

FG can point at Haughy while locking Lowry in the closet. FG stand for absolutely nothing. I vote in Cork North West. This was a FG stranglehold. But not any more. Why? Because, people are beginning to see the shortcomings in FG.

If Enda Kenny is their saviour – I think that they are in for a bleak future.

OH - Tea - Lyons are a fare more popular and nicer brand of tea sort of like FF.

Elmo

God a cork man saying that lyon is nicer then Barry's.

My god whats the world coming to with Cork people coming to cunclusions that they are not all that after all. Tut tut.

While i may disagree with FG politics Barry's tea is a nice cup of tea. (There should be a tread about tea, what do you think of PG tips and other english brands.)

Cork

I do not think much of the English brands of tea. I have trid tetleys. I think that they were giving 50% extra free.

Barrys are fine. So too are Bewleys. But I prefer Lyonzez.

I do prefer loose leaf more flavour.

Before - this posting gets wiped off - I better focus on Politics.

I think that our politicians have delivered on the North.

We don't praise them half enough.

There is a lot to be done. I think Bertie & Co, need to focus & sort out people on low pay & the health system.

FF are pretty policitically aware. I hope they'll make their mark sorting out these problems.

dahamsta

I think that our politicians have delivered on the North.

Well, that's one thing they've delivered on.

We don't praise them half enough.

We don't lart them half enough. The lack of transparency and accountability in the Irish Government is positively Reich-like.

FF are pretty policitically aware.

Indeed they are, which is not something that deserves applause in my view. With FF, it's all about politics, opacity and spin, and very, very little is dedicated to social responsibility and righting wrongs. If Ahern has succeeded at anything, it's modelling himself and his party after Tony Blair's New "Dodgy" Labour. All he's short is Byers and Mandy. We already have McCreevy to replicate Prescott by punching the Credit Unions in the face; and he seems to "do a Mowlam" every second day.

There's a big difference between being politically aware and being socially responsible. Someone should remind Ahern that he's running a country, not a corporation.

adam

Deathtobertie

In my opinion, fianna fail are a bunch of inbred sneaky chimpanzees with a grinning, stuttering orangoutang as their leader.

(I humbly apologise to all primates for comparing them to fianna fail.)

Elmo

And the nomination for worst slag of Boards.ie

In my opinion, fianna fail are a bunch of inbred sneaky chimpanzees with a grinning, stuttering orangoutang as their leader.

Those that came close where

The Celtic Snail
EirCon and other political posters ran during the GE by FG.

It comes down to mud slinging at this stage.

FF may be chimpanzee but at least they are not a lazy laxed political party will apsolutly no idea where they stand on anything of real importance.

Cork

The Celtic Snail EirCon and other political posters ran during the GE by FG.

Compansating the Taxi drivers.

If FF had this manifesto - they would have got their overall majority.

FG were trying to buy votes. Desperate or what?

Deathtobertie

Now who's slinging mud eh?

FF may be chimpanzee but at least they are not a lazy laxed political party will apsolutly no idea where they stand on anything of real importance.

At least others parties know the meaning of the word democracy. Why are Fianna Fail having a second referendum on the nice treaty? They do not seem to have a grasp of the basic concept of a republic. It is not democracy when peoples votes are ignored and they are told to vote again because they gave the wrong answer. It is not up to Fianna Fail or any other party to judge what anwer is wrong or right, they ask the question. The electorate tell them the answer and they should accept that. We elect them and tell them what to do not the other way around. Its a case of the lunatics taking over the asylum. It is typical of Fianna Fail to bend the rules to suit their own needs. In the last referendum on Nice they were purposefully obscure on the ramifications of it in a vain attempt to get it passed. And then when it did not go through, in a pathetic attempt at reverse psychology Bertie basically said that if we were an intelligent country we would have voted yes to it. I think me calling Bertie Ahern an Orangoutang was quite 'nice' (theres a contender for worst pun of boards.ie) under the circumstances.

Cork

At least others parties know the meaning of the word democracy

Well - FG did not gve the vote to its members to elect a leader.

Sinn Fein have a history of democratic principles.

Labour - Who voted that certain unions should contribute to this party?

Democratic left (not merged with labour) are also democratic.

Elmo

In my opinion, fianna fail are a bunch of inbred sneaky chimpanzees with a grinning, stuttering orangoutang as their leader.

This slag just shows how FG

are a lazy laxed political party will apsolutly no idea where they stand on anything of real importance.

ie that you can only state something stupid to give an argument. (That is of corse if you are an FG supporter Deathtobertie).

At least others parties know the meaning of the word democracy

Unfortunately this just shows how undemocratic europe is and how we in Ireland dont have a real choice in government when, if any other party, had been elected into government would now be considering a second Nice Ref. as well. I compleatly disagree with this second Nice Ref. and will yet again be voting NO not this time on the merits of any case for Nice but for Democracy and to show europe that we in Ireland are an Indep. Soverign state. And I hope others who voted yes the last time will vote no the second time round for this reason.

Dont be fooled into think that an FG government would not be looking for a second Nice ref. or that FG will now look for a NO vote this time round (I will eat my hat if they do).

Dont just go around blaming FF and PD government for the NO vote because all the major opposition parties also looked for a YES vote.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Compansating the Taxi drivers.

If FF had this manifesto - they would have got their overall majority.

Really? Care to explain how this manifesto would have earned more seats? Show the statistical evidence of how many votes were cast for any party purely because of this issue, or how many seats were won???

Lads - quit the mudslinging. Either present an argument or keep quiet, but these glib little unfounded one-liners (on either side of the issue) are pointless.

jc

Cork

I think that the FG manifesto did make some mighty big promises. Compensating Eircom shareholders and Taxi men to name a couple.

The FF manifesto was very restrained in comparisson.

Promises win votes. The FG manifesto contained some crazy ones

dahamsta

Cork, no-one is denying that Fine Gael screwed up. In fact, I think most people will accept that Noonan made a right haimes of the entire election, and his deputies acceptance of him and his methods was questionable at best; sheer idiocy at worst. Neither is anyone here deluding themselves that a new Leader is enough to gain the respect of the Irish people.

However that doesn't make your continued, outright partisan, blinkered acceptance and advocacy of Fianna Fáil, their leader and their principles correct. Fianna Fáil are far - very far - from being a "good" party, and that's even before we get to the fact that there's a big difference between the party in power, and the party in Opposition.

I would submit that when you get right down to it, Irish politics as a whole is a sham and a disgrace, and it's going to take a decade to pick up the pieces of some of Fianna Fáil's "initiatives"; some of which we probably won't even find out about for another few years; if that.

I would also submit that you have never, ever on this board, provided a shred of evidence for your assertions as to the brilliance of Fianna Fáil. In other words, you're most likely a typical card-carrying Fianna Fáil member - you haven't a bulls notion what you're talking about.

That's not to say I'm a whizkid at politics - I'm certainly not - but at least I'm willing to /attempt/ to provide evidence for my arguments.

Mods, that isn't a flame, it's the truth. Mod me if you wish, I'll stand by it.

adam

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I think that the FG manifesto did make some mighty big promises. Compensating Eircom shareholders and Taxi men to name a couple.

The FF manifesto was very restrained in comparisson.

Promises win votes. The FG manifesto contained some crazy ones

Yes - but promises also lose votes. If, for arguments sake, I was tempted by Fine Gael's policy in general, their blatantly "buy a vote" approach to refunding Eircom shareholders would have made me choose to not vote for them. The same, to a lesser extent, would hold true for my reaction to the compensation of taxi drivers.

I am not getting into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of such promises. We've had those discussions, and there is no "right" answer. I'm not reploughing that ground. All I am saying is that the making of such (in my eyes) idiotic promises would be enough to convince me to not vote for a party.

The FF manifesto, rightly or wrongly, was very restrained because - in their projected opinion - no radical changes were/are needed, and they are progressing nicely along their long term plans.

The lack (or presence) of radicalism in policy is not, in and of itself, a good or a bad thing. It is the need for such radicalism, and (perhaps more importantly) the perception of that need.

I would agree with Adam that " Irish politics as a whole is a sham and a disgrace". Then again - in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. Its as much a reflection on the nation as it is on the politicians. However, blaming any one party is facetious in the extreme, regardless of whether they are a bit-player or major name.

Originally posted by dahamsta
Mods, that isn't a flame, it's the truth. Mod me if you wish, I'll stand by it.[/B]

I'm happy enough to let it stand for now. However - I'm asking all parties to keep it no less civil than that last post.

jc

Elmo

The eircom scheme that FG wanted to set up through the PAYE system was a vote pulling gesture on their behave we all know that and we all know that FG this election continued on their Holy then art thou campaign againist FF which people look at a took a pinch of salt and said to themselfs

1. If i had bet money on a horse would i lose all my money yet Eircom share holders at least get back some of their money.

2. Micheal Lowery???????????


Noone ever said that FF are better then FG, FF are better at playing the political game then FG are and that is a fact show by the dreadful General Election Campaign and proven by the results.

I don't think Irish politics is a shame the only sham I see is the next Nice Treaty Ref. which would be taken by any party of any kind wether it be FF or FG.

I would like to see a Centre Left government in power maybe not consisting of either FF or FG.

All the parties need to sit down for the next election a point out exactly what they want for and from Ireland in the future and if something radical needs to be done have the guts to do it.

By the way I dont think that we have a centre Right government in power as i feel FF are just playing a good political game by having the PD's on their side.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by Elmo
By the way I dont think that we have a centre Right government in power as i feel FF are just playing a good political game by having the PD's on their side.

Emmm....Pardon!?
I cant say I agree with that. This govt is right of centre without doubt. (A fact I personally am pleased with might I add).

I mean Charlie McCreavy might as well join the PD's because they couldn't have had it anymore their own way during the last govt. in terms of finance policy. Also if one was to look at the newly appointed cabinet, the only member I can see as being clearly left of centre is Eamon O'Cuiv ("DeV. óg"- which is understanable of course)

Additionally, FF sit with the Gaullist's and Forza Italia in the Euro Parliament among many other centre right parties in the Union for Europe grouping (I think its called that!?)...further credence to their centre-right credentials

dahamsta

i feel FF are just playing a good political game

Indeed they are. But it's not a game. It's never a game. That's why the children in Fianna Fáil get no respect from me. When they stop playing games with people's lives, I might change my mind.

adam

Cork

When they stop playing games with people's lives

What games are they playing.

FG promised compansating taxi men & Eircom shareholders.

Labour promised more public holidays.

FF delivered on giving decent increases to the old. The raindow coalition gave scrooge like increaes to the old.

They increased spending on health, police and education.

It might be a game to you. It effects the quality of peoples lives. FF have done a decent job. They tranformed the tax system by bringing in tax credits by putting equity into it.

FF have more to delivered. They've delivered alot.

Shazbat

"FF have more to delivered. They've delivered alot"

I agree with that, they have given us long hospital waiting lists, high inflation rates, and outrageous house prices.

I really can't wait to see what else they are going to give us!!

A contagious disease maybe?

In fairness, they have given out good things too, namely a load of cushy jobs to their pals.

God they're great!

Cork

The government has delivered on jobs. People do not have to travel anymore just to find a job. They have delivered the Good Friday agreement. Gone are those days that bombing & shootings dominated our TV news.

It Carlsberg made governments – I am sure people would still find fault. It think it has to do with a “pinko liberal philosophy”.


Should the government are to go around telling people, how much they are to pay for houses? The government is building more local authority houses now than many previous governments. They have forced private developers to make social housing available. It is people who are bidding up the price of housing and these people will suffer when house prices drop.

Waiting lists. These are getting shorter. One has to remember that we have a pretty good health service. Knocking it with a few sound bytes acts as a dis service to those working in it. The health budget has more than doubled in the last 5 years.

I think the majority of people recognised that this government is doing a good job. Hence their return to government. Both FG & Labour had a disastrous election. The government is doing a fairly good job. It needs to do more in the areas of health & housing.

As JFK said “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”.
FF has delivered on substantial tax reductions. It has delivered on large increases in Children’s allowance & old age pensions. What increase did the last FG/socialist government give the OAPs? £1.75p?

Shazbat

FG and Labour did badly in the polls while FF gained but there is nothing to be proud about in being the best of a bad lot.
I accept the fact that FF are possibly the best party to be in government but it doesn't mean that i have to extol their virtues and be blind to their many shortcomings.

It seems FF can do nothing wrong in alot of peoples eyes. What party couldn't deliver when the country was awash with millions upon millions of pounds worth of EU grants. Any fool can do well we'll see what peoples opinion of them is when they raise taxes in the next budget, this coupled with the ongoing job losses might provoke a less than positive response from the electorate.

They may be the best party to be in government but they are a bunch of back-slapping shysters and everybody knows this.

FF did the bare minimum for the Good Friday Agreement they didn't put themselves out in any way they just more or less drifted along nudged gently by english goverments. It was the SDLP and Sinn Fein who truly made things happen and to a lesser extent David Trimble and Tony Blair, FF rank at the bottom with their contribution.

As Billy Connolly once said we shouldn't vote for politicians because it only encourages them this is especially true of FF.

Elmo

Labour did quiet well this election so much so that FG were afraid to go into the next dail without a leader as a candidate for Taoiseach.

Albert Renolds and the Labour Government were the people who set the whole peace process along.

I dont think I would give an award to David Trimble for Peace, Personal i think the unionist continue to give out about everything. He did do half as much as the SDLP leader, hume, who had being fighting for the rights of catholics since the sixtys.

Cork

What party couldn't deliver when the country was awash with millions upon millions of pounds worth of EU grants. Any fool can do well we'll see what peoples opinion of them is when they raise taxes in the next budget, this coupled with the ongoing job losses might provoke a less than positive response from the electorate.

?

FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

They did not deliver anyhing expect high taxes, hign spending & dispair.[

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

On the back of a Charlie Haughey, vote-grabbing budget, where car tax was reduced to £5/year, among other things.

Deathtobertie

FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

Eh? Who mentioned the eighties?? Nothing was good then, not music, clothes, haircuts or the Irish economy. I'm surprised you didn't drag the civil war into it too. Lets talk about the last five or six years!

Why not talk about the 1 billion folly that Bertie is hell bent on building? Is he beginning to show signs of megalomania or what? Maybe we should build great temples filled with golden idols in his likeness too. Maybe with the catholic church in crisis we could all turn to worshipping Bertie instead, as far as I can see some people are doing that already. We love the leader... we love the leader...

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
It think it has to do with a “pinko liberal philosophy”.

Think that says it all really.

Waiting lists. These are getting shorter. One has to remember that we have a pretty good health service. Knocking it with a few sound bytes acts as a dis service to those working in it. The health budget has more than doubled in the last 5 years.

We have some pretty good health workers. I'm living with one. That doesn't mean we have a good health service. In fact, Anne would say that we have a pretty crappy health service (and she should be in a position to judge), and before you accuse her of being a pinko liberal, she voted for FF in the last election.

As JFK said “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”.

Complain. Tell them where they're doing wrong. Shout loudly when doubling a health budget has still left people (people, not health boards) in hospitals in a position where they have to hire private nurses to make sure that their parents and grandparents receive the care they need.

FF has delivered on substantial tax reductions.

Not going to comment on that as I still believe most governments over the past thirty years have taken the completely wrong view of when and how to make tax cuts.

bonkey

Originally posted by Deathtobertie
Eh? Who mentioned the eighties?? Nothing was good then, not music, clothes, haircuts or the Irish economy. I'm surprised you didn't drag the civil war into it too. Lets talk about the last five or six years!

Because anyone who believes that the state of the union today can be attributed to "the last five or six years" clearly doesnt understand the fundamentals of economics when taken at a national scale.

jc

Deathtobertie

Because anyone who believes that the state of the union today can be attributed to "the last five or six years" clearly doesnt understand the fundamentals of economics when taken at a national scale.

Hmmm interesting, by that statement we can deduce that FF cannot take credit for the up-until-recently thriving ecomony? I think there are some people who would disagree with that (personally I wouldn't).

Labour/FG were blamed for doubling the national debt, which was in turned blamed on Charlie haughey's FF.

So all these people are (and have been) running our country cannot be held accountable for their bad policies in your opinion?

I think that the past five or six years are exceptions to any rules of economics that would have applied in this country before. It is a very different economy than the way it was twenty years ago. How can you compare an eighties economy where there was very little money to the mid - late nineties where there was a hell of alot floating around? Fundamentals in general are basic similarities, but things that are fundamentally the same can be extremely different due to various other non-fundamental factors, in this case vast sums of money.

The 'Fundamentals of economics when taken on a national scale' is a very ambigous statement and could be taken a number of ways and doesn't really refute or dispute anything, its more or less a meaningless soundbite.

Liars can be 'Fundamentally' telling the truth

bonkey

Originally posted by Deathtobertie
So all these people are (and have been) running our country cannot be held accountable for their bad policies in your opinion?

Of course they can be held accountable for bad policies. I never claimed otherwise. What I pointed out is that you cannot set convenient timeframes across the board.

Several people have complained about the state of our healthcare, and have blamed FF for it. Well, hang on. When FF came into power, what state was healthcare in? How much money have they spent on improving it? Were they to spend more, where would this money come from, and what could it be spent on?

All of these questions are relevant to how good or bad a job FF has done with our healthcare. Taking the current state of healthcare without these questions is meaningless.

The more you look at issues in this light, the more you see that it is not the current level, nor the degree of change which is truly indicative. Each case needs to be looked at in terms of its history, its particular problems and peculiarities, all taking into account the rate at which change can be realistically effected.

When someone presents an argument which is based around "limit yourself to the last 5 or 6 years please", they are either deliberately skewing the argument in favour of their position, or are showing a basic lack of undersanding of the issues.

jc