To Dsl or not to Dsl?

Carnate

Hi Gang been a looooooooooooong time since i posted,

anyway heres my problem, i have isdn, (tut tut) i know, but i have had it a very long time, and by now i think i should own Eircum..

Anyway the problem, i got my phone line tested by Eircum and it failed the "test" for DSL, now after over 25 phone calls to Eircum it was suggested by a dsl sales person,after talking to the "engineers" that i should either do 1 of 2 things, get my ISDN changed back to PSDN or get another phone line!. The first option was 5 weeks without a fast connection, which i had to rule out completely, or get a 2nd phone line in, well you can guess what i got?.. now 3 days after ordering a new line .. the "engineer" arrives while im at work, even after they telling me, that the "engineer" would ring before arriving.. any way he put in the "new" line and he told me over the phone that he had tested it and it was fine..even for DSL he claimed. When i arrived home from work, i rang Eircum DSL sales ppl to check out the line (pre- qual), only to be told that it would be a week to 10 days before they could check it! Right i said, "how come the engineer had tested the line and proclaimed it working, and you say its not?"
The reply is not worth repeating.. as it was total bollox!
I gave it a few days and recontacted the dsl sales ppl, for them to test the line again, only to be told the NEW LINE FAILED!
Well as some of you guys know me.. i flipped, i had just spent an extra €120 to get a new line to be told it FAILED! seemingly the "new line" from Lucan-ballydowd exchange was too OLD?
I then asked to speak to a Supervisor, who agreed that the lines to my house had a fault on it, and were possibly old copper! I had enough Bull****, and asked how come a friend of mine who lives in Inchicore and lives in a 80 year old house have dsl working fine with no problems? The supervisor was as expected lost for words and asked me to call back in a week and they would see if the line was "fixed". Now my question.. has anyone else come across this problem. and did they get it resolved?

Kali

tbh they (Eircom) are throwing that "your line is unsuitable" line left right and centre in order to stop people realising that after god knows how many years their own backbone and local transfer switchs still havnt been upgraded to the required standards that adsl requires (that or they really dont give two ****s about making money).

I honestly think that your exact experience will be replayed hundreds of times throughout the next few months as people wade in blindfolded desperately seeking to jump on the broadband wagon... and unfortunaly they're left to pay out as a result. I know for certain that I'd get a "line failed" reply if I enquired.. not that I know that my line/local switch/whatever is hopeless but simply down to the fact that I just have absolutely no faith in their ability to deliver ADSL to the public in an efficient manner.

btw I'll throw this into Net/Comms as thats where DSL debate does be happening, but its worth having a quick look through the IrelandOffline board, a lot of people tend to voice their dissatisfaction and experiences with Eircom in there

DeVore

happened to me on the trial, exact same thing. Eventually I got the money for the PSTN line refunded. They told me that when it all went live (ie not Trial) I wouldnt.

I'm getting wireless in.

Strictly speaking btw, if they sell you something for a specific purpose one of the statutory rights you have as a consumer is that if they agree to undertake the working KNOWING THE USE YOU WANT TO PUT IT TO, they are responsible for it.

DeV.

SantaHoe

Originally posted by Carnate
Anyway the problem, i got my phone line tested by Eircum and it failed the "test" for DSL, now after over 25 phone calls to Eircum it was suggested by a dsl sales person,after talking to the "engineers" that i should either do 1 of 2 things, get my ISDN changed back to PSDN or get another phone line!.

Did they "test" the POTS on your ISDN? or do you have another PSDN line or something *conf00zled*
I was under the impression that ADSL over ISDN wasn't an option in the first place.

I'm in a similar situation, I've got ISDN and am considering getting DSL... but I've heard you have to pay to have your line downgraded to PSDN... I asked the rep if it would cost anything to downgrade before I had ISDN installed and she said it was free... I don't know who to believe.
I know I'd be absolutely gutted if I payed to downgrade and the "line test" failed.
On top of the already rediculous setup fee eircom are charging for DSL

I feel for ya' carn
Make sure you at least get a refund if they still can't "pass" your line.
Good luck.

Carnate

Yes i was told it would cost me a "FEE" to downgrade to PSDN and then another "FEE" to upgrade to ADSL.


Now talk about Milking the cow!

I am going to give them the week to "fix" the line.. and if i dont get proper satisfaction, then im gonna let me loose on all and any groups/companies etc etc and complain...

and I can do a great job at that.. my first port of call will be the CEO of Eircum.

I do believe i have been mislead down the garden path.

elexes

this thoubles meh . there going to fail me i know it . wonder how mutch it is to build a exchange

Carnate

Well here we are on tuesday morning/afternoon depending if your off work still.!

I have just got off the phone with Eircum, and here is the latest update.


It seems NOW that my new phone line is not even on their system yet, also at the same time im talking to Eircum, i get a phone call from home, seemingly another "engineer" arrives to test my "DSL" line.. and he gives it a clean bill of health!!!!!


Now heres the funny thing.. the guy at the "DSL" end of the phone, cant make head nor tail of the "engineers" reported line being ok, and the "engineer" cant understand what the "DSL" guy is talking about.( Talk about Left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing!). Seemingly(and dont quote me) that there has to be something on the end of the "DSL"line to be checked!

I did say dont quote me. Anyway the upshot of this is, that they want me to email the "DSL" engineer everyday to see if the lines working. Cant really understand why?.

So thats what im going to do is email them every morning and request an update!

PS btw lucan ballydowd exchange.. if ure more then a mile from it TOUGH! thats what was implied to me!

tune in tomorrow to the next excit...... yeah yeah..!

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Carnate
Now heres the funny thing.. the guy at the "DSL" end of the phone, cant make head nor tail of the "engineers" reported line being ok, and the "engineer" cant understand what the "DSL" guy is talking about.( Talk about Left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing!). Seemingly(and dont quote me) that there has to be something on the end of the "DSL"line to be checked!

Are you sure the engineer that came around to your house was testing specifically for suitability for DSL? Generally, these guys just check that the line meets some minimum criteria (such as voice and 14.4k FAX). Did he know what DSL was? There are very specific tests that need to be carried out for this.

Carnate

Well here we are on Wednesday(world cup day),


And i have recieved my first mail from the dsl tech boyo,


"Hi Ray

Combination still not recognised I will try again in the Morning
but I think your best bet will be next Tuesday.

D*****"(name hidden just in case)

Hmm this either means that they are still trying to find the "fault"

Or im being lead down the garden path again, i hope they are still trying to fix this fault.


As to the "engineer" i agree i really dont think he knew what "DSL" was.

ok so a wait methinks till Next Tuesday!

KdjaCL

Well DSL man came today installed all the box and stuff and lo and behold it wasnt syncing with the jumper in the exchange now i have to wait a few more days, weeks, months, years to get it.
btw the contractor was a really nice guy even put 2 boxes into my kitchen ,didnt have to just did cos he was nice
Kdja

Carnate

**********UPDATE**********

Still not on system yet, got a very funny reply today, the dsl guy said if the DSL line didnt work.. perhaps i could try 128k leased line, FFS talk about a hard sell!

anyway no more updates till i see what happens on Tuesday!
"can yah wait till then "


"Laterz
Play Nice"

po0k

you can get a xDSL flavour over ISDN.

Just that Eircom don't want to deal with it.

Bandwidth is lower then ADSL afaik though.

Anyone care to enlghten me more?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by SyxPak
you can get a xDSL flavour over ISDN.

Just that Eircom don't want to deal with it.

Bandwidth is lower then ADSL afaik though.

Anyone care to enlghten me more?

It's called IDSL

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/I/IDSL.html

http://www.dslreports.com/information/kb/IDSL

ohm-e

Just got a new line installed here in Swords, Forrest road, it's roughly 3-3.5km from ADSL enabled exchange in swords, still waiting for line testing results as it's a new estate :O !!
Anyone living near by got it?
I've read that the limitations are circa 3-3.5km although Eircom say 2-2.5km and does anyone know if they are offering RADSL yet?? which goes up to ISDN distances? BT offered it back in August to the UK surely Eircom had the sense to start with ADSL and RADSL for those at the thin end of the distance-wedge?

longword

Originally posted by Frank_Grimes
It's called IDSL

There's also a form of ADSL that can co-exist with a normal ISDN service. IDSL replaces the ISDN service on a line so you can't make normal phone calls on it. ADSL on an ISDN line simply avoids the frequency range used by ISDN - up to 160kHz. Normally ADSL starts at 22kHz and goes up to over 1500kHz, so you don't lose out on all that much spectrum and the max bandwidth over that line shouldn't be affected too much.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by longword
Normally ADSL starts at 22kHz and goes up to over 1500kHz, so you don't lose out on all that much spectrum and the max bandwidth over that line shouldn't be affected too much.

I believe this is the type used in Germany (T-DSL), where ISDN has been heavily sold. Shame it is not being used here since in recent years a lot of people have been ordering ISDN (hi-speed) simply due to lack of availability of up-to-date broadband.

Carnate

Ok here we go less then 12 hrs before i see if Eircom have their act together, its been nearly 2 weeks with my new line in and still no test can be done. can yah feel the electricity in the air..oops no thats my monitor burning out!


Will update yah all If/when i get a response..



Carnate
Nuff Said!

Carnate

Well now i am truly phucked,




Hi Ray

I have checked now twice this morning and its coming up as failed
so I think it is unlikely you will be able to get it ......... I think
distance may be an Issue if you give me one of your neighbours numbers
i will check that and see what happens

Declan


Paid out for a new line, and still the phucking thing fails.
now im told i wont get DSL!

Eircum have a lot to answer for!

Well and truly p1ssed Off.

Carnate

oK ..2 UPDATES IN THE ONE DAY..!

Dunno if this is good or bad,will have to wait and see. this is the latest mail.

"Hi Ray

For what I can only imagine is good news for you ! I have spoke to the
techies in Limerick and there was a problem sending your information
over yesterday when I had emailed them ......... I have been advised that
the Info that it has been sent across now for testing and the test results
will be in tomorrow morning so I will check first thing and let you know
and if successful I'll buy you a pint in Courtney's .

Cheers Declan."


Limerick huh.. oi UL fix the damm DSL!

Carnate
Nuff Said!

Ruaidhri

if successful I'll buy you a pint in Courtney's .

w000p free drink!!
good luck with the DSL(And if not wave a brown envelope and scream solicitors letter )

ando

Originally posted by Carnate
oK ..2 UPDATES IN THE ONE DAY..!
"Hi Ray

For what I can only imagine is good news for you ! I have spoke to the
techies in Limerick and there was a problem sending your information
over yesterday when I had emailed them ......... I have been advised that
the Info that it has been sent across now for testing and the test results
will be in tomorrow morning so I will check first thing and let you know
and if successful I'll buy you a pint in Courtney's .

Cheers Declan."

This is one considerate engineer. I've never meet anyone quite as helpful as this chap. When your finished with this techi carnate, plz pass him onto me, I'm in exactly the same situation !!!

Carnate

OK after Irelands 3-0 Victory, I have a Victory of my own


Got a phone call from Declan a few mins ago, and i have now passed the pre-qual test and ordered DSL, to be connected in approx 10-14 days.


am going for Solo.. and will upgrade after they have sorted out the prices for routers.. 900 euros for a router is a bit much, anyone have any prices for buying a router and which one is the best? usb or ethernet?


Ando ring 1800-512128 and ask for Declan!

A very happy Carnate!
Nuff Said!

Kevok

Congrats on the victory Carnate. Well deserved.

Wish all eircom employees were as understanding as declan seemed.

Black Sky

Well done Carnate...


Originally posted by Carnate
PS btw lucan ballydowd exchange.. if ure more then a mile from it TOUGH! thats what was implied to me!

One question.. do you know where the Lucan/Ballydowd Exchange is???
I got ISDN out there and would like to move to DSL..

Cheers...

Carnate

Thx Kevok, well deserved.. well i hope so eventually! Never give up is my motto..!

The lucan/ballydowd exchange is behind the christian brothers school in lucan, St Marys boys school i think is the name of the school.. Its on the hill going down to lucan village.


You from Lucan Black Sky?
what part?


Carnate
really not Nuff Said

ando

I'm following carnate and going for it... I'm getting my isdn line downgraded to pstn. I'm still kinda skeptical as my line originally failed the dsl test when it was first installed, but carnate's experiances gives me hope

But my god carnate, you must of made an impact to the staff at eircom, when I was on the phone to them, they must of told me 20 times ... 'You know Mr ----, there is a chance your line will fail and you will never be able to get DSL, you do know that dont you?'. I was supprised just how many times they were drilling that into the conversation

€24.99 to downgrade, another supprise, I taught it was €100 to downgrade ?

Carnate

Ando

I have always made an impact.. just not always the right One!

btw downgrading may take up to 5 weeks.. so be warned!
:mad:

Carnate
Not nearly Enuff Said!

po0k

Does DSL ping worse then Cable, and is there any contention ratio at all with DSL, or are we all on our own copper pair with dedicated bandwidth?
Shouldn't there be a bottle neck in the exchange?

Dustaz

Theres contention issues with all methods of access to the internet. But if your talking about shared bandwith problems, then cable suffers slightly more from them than dsl. This is a real problem if a neighbour of yours decides he wants to run a porn/warez server. DSL is by no means invulnerable to this type of thing, but because the bandwith is shared after the exchange, apparently it handles it better.

po0k

and what about latency issues?

I read before tha DSL is just a band of modems shotgunned down the one line, each tuned to different frequencies, with a strip of bandwidth between each one to avoid overlap, which narrows due to attenuation with distance I think - hence higher possible speed the closer you are to exchange I think...
Where as Cable can be optical (I think)

longword

Theres contention issues with all methods of access to the internet. But if your talking about shared bandwith problems, then cable suffers slightly more from them than dsl. This is a real problem if a neighbour of yours decides he wants to run a porn/warez server. DSL is by no means invulnerable to this type of thing, but because the bandwith is shared after the exchange, apparently it handles it better.

It's all down to implementation.

Cable networks typically use fibre to reach a locality, then over the coax they can shove up to 40Mbit/sec worth of data - even more with recent standards. Most cable modems won't give any one customer more than 10Mbit simply because their interface is 10BaseT or USB. Many also throttle the usage to a limit preconfigured by the ISP. Cable networks might be a little more exposed on the upstream, because like ADSL the bandwidth is asymmetric with the upstream bandwidth being a small fraction of the downstream. Warez servers could be a problem.

It all comes down to how many people are using each network segment - if the cable company so desires, they can install further fibre runs and equipment to split a busy segment in two. Makes the customers happier but of course it costs the cable company more.

DSL contention is mainly in the link from the exchange to the ISP. Eircom have set a limit on that contention at 24:1 - so for every 24 users with a 1Mbit connection, Eircom will have a 1Mbit link out of the exchange. If two or three out of those 24 users are pigs, you're gonna be unhappy.

My best guess is the link from the exchange to the ISP will be symmetric as opposed to the heavily asymmetric DSL - so if someone's running an FTP server it shouldn't be too damaging to everyone else's upstream since there's four times as much of it to go around.

I read before tha DSL is just a band of modems shotgunned down the one line, each tuned to different frequencies, with a strip of bandwidth between each one to avoid overlap

That's fairly accurate. The line is sliced into 4kHz chunks and it runs a separate modem on each of them. The DSL hardware analyses each band and sets the speed on each differently to get the most out of the line. Of course all the modems run in parallel and there's over 200 of them so it's pretty speedy. If the teleco turns off the Forward Error Correction, DSL can beat nearly anything for latency. Normally it's left on though, providing for a more reliable connection at the expense of a few tens of milliseconds to your ping.

lynchie

Originally posted by longword


DSL contention is mainly in the link from the exchange to the ISP. Eircom have set a limit on that contention at 24:1 - so for every 24 users with a 1Mbit connection, Eircom will have a 1Mbit link out of the exchange. If two or three out of those 24 users are pigs, you're gonna be unhappy.

Does this mean that if 24 users have a 1mbit line on the same exchange and they are all using the full bandwidth, i.e. downloading a linux distro at the same time, they are not going to get the full 1mbit downstream as all their connections are being shoved into a 1mbit pipe out of the exchange??

TacT

no afaik each user should be able to maintain their 100Kb+download speed

although due to the way eircom have implemented adsl there is slightly more overhead in the packets which means slightly higher latency/pings for gaming. It also means that when bandwidth is being shared your ping doesn't spike to 500 and your games are still playable while your little brother/whatever is surfing away in the other room while your playing away

If you upload at full speed/saturate the bandwidth then it will lag A LOT!

longword

Originally posted by lynchie


Does this mean that if 24 users have a 1mbit line on the same exchange and they are all using the full bandwidth, i.e. downloading a linux distro at the same time, they are not going to get the full 1mbit downstream as all their connections are being shoved into a 1mbit pipe out of the exchange??

Yes.

However it might average out better across all the users of the exchange - most likely there will be more than 24 users in a given exchange, so the upstream pipe will be more than 1mbit - though still at the rate of 1Mbit per 24 users. (assuming the faster service).

ando

Right, well thats that... I in NO WAY can get Adsl. The eircom engineer arrived today at 2pm to downgrad my isdn line to PSTN, so as I can do a DSL test.

While he was doing the job, I asked how far away my line was to the exchange. 'Well, from the top of this estate, its 4.8Km's, so I'd guess you are about 5.2Km away from the exchange'.....

F*CK THAT

po0k

Hheheheh, well put
I'm 1.5km from my exchangfe, but a DACS line stops me....and that fact that the main exchange i'm on has no room to put the equipment in.

One thing....is that distance measured from the small little exchange up in the village or the 10km into town to the main Shantalla exchange?

Also, ando, wireless
http://www.irishwan.org

Carnate

Right!

I was gonna type a really long and angry post here yesterday, but the other half warned me not to.. so here is the shortened version!


Eircom are a bunch of misleading, thoughtless,waste of space of a company.

you may have noticed i didnt curse once YET!

I was told on Monday that the dsl would be in on friday 28th, i was told 3 times it would be in and I (worse fool me) accepted this, then on Friday i got a phone call with a confirmed date.. the phucking 5-7-02, now some may think thats fast, beware .. i was told 2 weeks and it was confirmed to me 2 weeks, then i was told 21 days due to the "H U G E" response they got. Well as i have just typed, 14 days went to 21 days and now i have been waiting 7 weeks. So if yah want DSL pick a week number and PRAY. I have lost the last bit of confidence i had With Eircom on Friday, The reason why my confirmed date was changed.. The DSL manager in Limerick changed it, and when asked for a reason.. said they didnt have to give one???????????!

So i have got in touch with a friend, who deals in company Law.. and have been told to wait until the 5-7-02. then go for the jugular!

There yah go the shortened Version!

Carnate
Not Nearly Enuff Said!.. by a long shot!

po0k

Go for the balls.

Carnate

Here we go 7 days and counting..

anyone want to take a bet on whether they will be as good as eircums word?


Cmon ppl .. your opinions!!


Carnate:D

Supercell

Suprised at this treatment, was given a date as to when the installer would come..he came and installed it, nice guy too..all went sweet as candy, this was in Dublin mind you.

Seems to be pot luck with eircom, this is the only thing that ever went accross without a hitch, thought at the time it meant that eircom were giving higher priority to adsl than most otherthings, given that it prolly such a goldmine to em..seems i was mistaken.

Nice to go to bed though with the pc hooked up to the interweb and not worry about how much its costing per minute.

Carnate

Well on the home straight,

Just got a mail from Eircom, telling me Friday tween 9am-12am

Hope they have all the right hardware for me..

Tune in for more updates.


Carnate

KdjaCL

This is turning into a soap opera
When you finally get it tell em you dont like the colour of the modem and to take the whole thing back:)
Kdja

Carnate

HEH HEH yup KDJA


and heres the latest installment.

Found out the ethernet modem is a Zyxel 600 series.

"ZyXEL's Prestige 600 Series ADSL Solution is designed for small office, home office and residential users, enabling high-speed Internet connections at speeds of up to 8Mbps. Easy installation and factory-installed settings benefit both service providers and their customers by eliminating the time and technical expertise required to set up the devices. The Prestige ADSL Solution fully complies with ANSI T1.413 Issue, ITU-T G.992.1 (G.DMT) and G.992.2 (G.Lite) ADSL standards for worldwide deployment, and has been verified by undergoing extensive interoperability testing with major DSLAM providers. "

Heres the link. check it out.

http://www.zyxel.com/product/category1.php?indexcate1=1021877946&indexFlagvalue=1021873638

Carnate

Carnate

Well after nearly 10 weeks waiting my new arrival arrived

i am now the proud owner of a DSL connection


was it worth the wait.. WAS IT........... WAS IT


AHUH AHUH AHUH AHUH!


I have to say its phucking unreal the difference max dload speed tonight was 89kb/s... im in web xtc.

heres the downside.. Do not try and use win98SE with this kit.. even after updating NDIS drivers max speed was only 20kb/s, i had already set up another drive with Win2k and the difference was amazing! My Vote is for win2k.. dunno about XP as i dont like it sofar.. but who knows a year down the road.

anyway i recommend So guys go get it!!


Carnate.. Nuff Said!

Practical

nice

What ping are you getting?

Carnate

i was getting between 20-30 ping to da states

phoenix2181

does anyone know were the exchange is in bray & if it is upgraded as if it is I'm going to set up a active node for wireless access & the istream multi user

ando

congrats on getting your dsl, i however was'nt so lucky,

I re-ordered Isdn yeturday after my 'new' line was failing the dsl test

Carnate

dont reorder..

ring 1800512128 and ask for declan

he helped me.. yah just have to be a bit firm with Eircum!