Attention Ostriches!

R.A.McCartney

When Áine Ní Chonnaill tried to launch the Immigration Control Platform in Enis in January 1998, she was attacked for being extremist and alarmist. According to Paul Cullen, writing in the Irish Times

“The Association of Asylum seekers and Refugees compared the
start of the new group to the birth of Nazism... A spokesman, Mr Khalid Ibrahim, said there were 4,000 asylum-seekers in Ireland.“

That year 4,626 people applied for asylum in Ireland, more than doubling the number. Predictably, the Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees did not issue a statement admitting this, nor have they appologised to the Immigration Control Platform.

In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly. In the last 3 years the number has been over 10,000 per year. Careful investigation of these applications, including numerous appeals, has shown that very few of these people are genuine refugees, yet virtually all are staying in Ireland.

The situation is even worse when one includes legal as well as illegal immigrants. I have always opposed racism & my ancestry is mixed, but I worry about what will happen unless something is done to halt immigration. In most European countries, when people complain about their culture being endangered by immigrants, its just rubbish. But Ireland has a small population, a minute Irish-speaking population, and its taking in more immigrants per head of population than almost any other European country. Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

According to http://www.cso.ie/publications/demog/popmig.pdf
"Net immigration (the balance between inward and outward migration) reached a historical highpoint of 26,300 in the year to April 2001...The number of immigrants increased to 46,200 in the year to April 2001 while the number of emigrants declined to a record low of 19,900 in the same period... Returning Irish nationals continue to be the largest immigrant group (39 per cent in the year to April 2001)"

According to the CSO, the number of Irish national in-migrants was 18,018. If all the out-migrants were Irish nationals (figures on the nationality of out-migrants are not collected, but the average age of emigrants is lower than that of immigrants), then there was a net loss of 1,882 Irish nationals & a gain of 28,182 non-Irish nationals. At this rate, in 30 years or so there could be over a million non-Irish primary immigrants in Ireland, and if each of these brought in a spouse and a couple of children, they would outnumber Irish people.

Almost every other developed country in Europe now has tougher laws on asylum and immigration than Ireland. Many of them only recently changed their laws to halt the growing influx of illegal immigrants posing as refugees. Ultra-liberal Denmark was the first country to sign the 1951 UN Refugee Convention. It also has a lower level of asylum applications per head of population than Ireland. Yet Denmark is introducing some of the toughest asylum laws in Europe. According to http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,681538,00.html “If as expected, the new legislation is passed by (the Danish) parliament there will be no legal right to reunification with a spouse at all”. The Guardian also says Denmark will ' seek to return the few refugees it agrees to accept to their country of origin "if the situation changes so that they will no longer be persecuted" '

I've read the Immigration Control Platform's web site at http://www.immigrationcontrol.org/index.htm, and for the most part it seem sensible and well-argued. If they were given a fair hearing, I'm sure most people would agree with them. Unfortunately, the terms of the debate are not fair. The media paint the ICP as a bunch of Nazis, without a single shred of evidence. Pro-immigration extremists receive generous state funding (see http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2001/0522/hom32.htm) while the ICP has to raise its own funds. ICP members also face the threat of physical violence. A group calling itself “Anti-Fascist Action” has posted messages on the internet openly boasting that it has used violence against the ICP, & that it will continue to do so. The establishment take draconian action against the supposed threat of political violence by Republicans, yet nothing is being done to protect the ICP.

This week the new anti-immigration party (List Pim Fortuyn) is expected to win around 20% of the vote in ultra-liberal Netherlands. In the Irish general election virtually 100% of the vote will go to pro-immigration parties.

Ostriches will ignore these facts, responsible people will support the Immigration Control Platform.

Biffa Bacon

I'm in favour of strict immigration laws and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society. However, I don't think much of Aine O'Chonaill.

bugler

What a bizarre post. Someone who is of "mixed-ancestry", and indeed is now Irish, but who would deny others the right to which his family were kindly given? It's bad enough listening to Irish people in general giving out about immigrants coming to sponge our money and houses, when as a race we've been doing it like no other (relative to size) for the last 200 years. But to have someone who is apparently themselves of immigrant stock to do it? Yes, bizarre.

Now for a couple more of your delightful points. First of all, what the Immigrant groups spokesperson said (and I forget the name of the group already, odd considering it is no doubt over-running my peaceful boidhrín with immigrants as I type) was a piece of misinformation. He didn't accuse the ICP of anything, so I don't know why you think an apology was in order. In politics, if you went around asking for apologies everytime someone said something misleading or untrue then forget about elections, there'd be no time.

In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly. In the last 3 years the number has been over 10,000 per year. Careful investigation of these applications, including numerous appeals, has shown that very few of these people are genuine refugees, yet virtually all are staying in Ireland.

What? Immigrants in seeking better quality of life shock?! Call the Sun! You'll notice, that the Irish immigrant diaspora is surprisingly small around third world countries. It actually doesn't even include such perfectly good havens as Madagascar*. There is a reason for this you see. When people leave the land of their birth, which for anyone who has had to do it is a traumatic, daunting thing, regardless of the reasons for it, they usually seek out a country in which maybe they can get a job that pays something reasonable, or drink clean water. Ireland, well most parts of it, can fulfil these outrageous demands amongst others, therefore we get more immigrants now then we did when any young Irish person who wanted to escape the dole queue had to get the ferry or plane to a different country. I'm sure that little revelation of yours will have shocked the people of boards.ie

Ireland has a small population, a minute Irish-speaking population, and its taking in more immigrants per head of population than almost any other European country. Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

I think you'll find that immigrants coming into Ireland are the least likely factor in the fall off in the speaking of Irish. Or were we all using cúpla focail and guarding our pots of gold back in 1991?

Your reasoning is truly magnificent too. Using a one whole month(!) period in which to shock us with the disclosure that 38 percent of babies were born to non-nationals, in one hospital, in one city, in one county. How wide ranging and expansive! Are you a sociologist?! With clear and exact methods like that you must be.

You'd have thought that the heartbreak and emotional poverty scars that emigration left on Ireland's psyche would have left us with a little more understanding of newcomers to this country. Newcomers who, just like we once had to, have given up their friends and families and country of birth to come to this little greedy, narrow minded country. No-one denies that Ireland's immigration system needs shaping up. But unintelligent, misleading and childlike posts like this, and the same behaviour of the ICP do little to aid the situation.

Oh and some of your links are broken, and the ICP make a good argument when it suits them. Re:Irish immigration to Britain for example. The ICP sort of say, "ah well, you know... sure there's really no comparison, I mean.... ..... ..... .. .. .. .."

Oh, and www.americannaziparty.com doesn't curse at anyone either. In fact if you go read it you'll see their arguments sound fair, and reasonable. Most people say that about "Mein Kampf" too. Not that I'm likening mere anti-immigrant groups with Nazi's mind...


* This may be untrue. There may indeed be a thriving Irish-Madagascan community that I am unaware of.

dahamsta

I'm in favour of strict immigration laws

I'm in favour of strict laws too, although not necessarily laws that say, "no, we don't want any immigration". The Government's tendency to simply avoid the issue is embarassing and pathetic though.

and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society.

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

adam

seamus

I don't like that Aine NI whatsherface either. She'll probably try get 'citizenship by blood' legislation if she gets in, which is a tad too much like nazism IMHO.

I have no problem with asylum seekers. As long as they get the feck out when they're application is turned down instead of whinging to the Sun about it.

bonkey

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Ostriches will ignore these facts, responsible people will support the Immigration Control Platform.

This entire post reads like either a Party Political Broadcast, or some similar sales pitch. It has also been reported to the mods for this and other reasons.

Unfortunately, R.A.McCartney does not appear to have an option available to be PMed by, so I cant take this off-thread like I would like to.

So...to R.A.McCartney - please clarify what, if any, your relationship with the ICP is. I'll give you 48 hours to respond. If I havent heard from you by then, I will assume that this post was just blatant party promotional propaganda, and will close/delete the thread.

I've read the Immigration Control Platform's web site at [url]http://[/url] www.immigrationcontrol.org/index.htm, and for the most part it seem sensible and well- argued.

You've done more than just read it. At the very least, you would appear to have a link to it off your own web-site , as the top of your politics links, which would indicate at least that this hasnt been a recent discovery of yours....which in turn would lead me to question the timing of this post....which is why it smacks of party-political broadcasting to me.

If you're interested in discussing the points you raise, then discuss them. If you are only making quick advertising-run visits, then there's no space here thank you very much.

jc

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by dahamsta

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

Because it causes divisions in society.

Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism, apart from an inferiority complex whereby we have to have a multicultural society because the big boys and girls in Europe and America have multicultural societies.

Victor

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Because it causes divisions in society.

What types of divisions are you referring to?

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism, apart from an inferiority complex whereby we have to have a multicultural society because the big boys and girls in Europe and America have multicultural societies.

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

Victor

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
According to http://www.cso.ie/publications/demog/popmig.pdf
"Net immigration (the balance between inward and outward migration) reached a historical highpoint of 26,300 in the year to April 2001...The number of immigrants increased to 46,200 in the year to April 2001 while the number of emigrants declined to a record low of 19,900 in the same period... Returning Irish nationals continue to be the largest immigrant group (39 per cent in the year to April 2001)"

According to the CSO, the number of Irish national in-migrants was 18,018. If all the out-migrants were Irish nationals (figures on the nationality of out-migrants are not collected, but the average age of emigrants is lower than that of immigrants), then there was a net loss of 1,882 Irish nationals & a gain of 28,182 non-Irish nationals. At this rate, in 30 years or so there could be over a million non-Irish primary immigrants in Ireland, and if each of these brought in a spouse and a couple of children, they would outnumber Irish people.

You are misrepresenting the figures. Those figures include Irish and non-Irish people, you cannot assume that everyone leaving the country last year was Irish (hey the ICP say people were deported and they make up part of the figure).

You refer to average age, this is over thousands of people, not a small coherent group, and merely represents (largely) the number of Irish people who emigrated in the eighties and are now returning. You are also ignoring births in the equation (eqaul to migration in it's contribution to population growth).

The ICP's own website list about 10,000 asylum seekers a year, which includes all (adults and children), so it would take hundreds of years to be 'overwhelmed'. And oh, look practically every person in Ireland has foreign ancestors if you go back a few hundred years.

Victor

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

This figure has been disputed, do you have any back up?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=384835&highlight=maternity

Sand

What types of divisions are you referring to?

The divisions encoutered by the U.S. , Britian, France and so on. The institutional racism in police forces and other government agencies. Racially motivated crime and rioting. The ghettoisation and so on. All divisions countries with far more resources and more experience in tackling these divisions have been unable to solve. To the point where Le Pen can run for president playing on these divisions in France. Apart from the "feel good" of taking economic migrants in as refugees what exactly is the benefit to Ireland?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
The divisions encoutered by the U.S. , Britian, France and so on. The institutional racism in police forces and other government agencies. Racially motivated crime and rioting. The ghettoisation and so on.

LOL. And so we come full circle.

Adam started us off by pointing out that

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

Biffa answers this "why" with :

Because it causes divisions in society.

which Victor counters by asking :

What types of divisions are you referring to?

And what divisions do we get? The racist-motivated ones which started the whole point!!

IN other words - the reasons besides gross bigoted racism are racist ones. Huh???

Personally, I do not accept the problems caused by racism as grounds to prevent multiculturalism. Its racism to avoid racism. The only advantage is that we dont have to suffer "active" racism on our doorstep, because we can keep all the foreigners out.

Hey - thats a great solution. If we keep all the races and cultures seperate, there'll be no racism!

Uh-huh. Riiiiight.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism

Better cuisine and a desperately needed injection of new blood into the gene pool.

But especially better cuisine.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Victor
What types of divisions are you referring to?

Multiculturalism by its very nature is divisive as we have different sections of the population adhering to different cultures.

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

I don't see how that is evident of an inferiority complex. And what does the 2% refer to? How many we have now or will have or what?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Better cuisine and a desperately needed injection of new blood into the gene pool.

Well I've always thought a good immigration policy would be "Come in if you're good looking". So Japs, Spanish and Jewish women only I think.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Multiculturalism by its very nature is divisive as we have different sections of the population adhering to different cultures.

Not really. I think I’ve blended in rather well.

btw, which culture should get to stay in Ireland - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish...

mike65

Originally posted by Victor

What types of divisions are you referring to?

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

Victor, were you stating that 2% of the population is non-Irish
or that 2% of the non-Irish population might be objected to?

Mike.

Sand

IN other words - the reasons besides gross bigoted racism are racist ones. Huh???

Yeah that interpretation gets a huh? from me too

People can oppose immigration/multi culturalism cos they think foreigners look and smell funny or whatever - i.e. Gross Bigoted Racism. I look at multi cultural societies like Britian and I see race riots, divisions in society and weakening of instititutions by shouts of "racism!!!", murders that are racially motivated like Steven Lawrence's. I only see trouble and costs Ireland doesnt need. I consider it practical to avoid such problems. Mightnt be politically correct but Im not terribly bothered by that tbh.

I see no benefits to multi culturalism, I see lots of disadvantages and the only reason that people can come up with is that its politically correct and we can get a better curry. I just cant counter that

Hey - thats a great solution. If we keep all the races and cultures seperate, there'll be no racism!

If we shove all the races in together in the same city/neighbourhood/street therell be no racism!

Uh-huh. Riiiight.

DeVore

Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

seriously.

DeV.

Ruaidhri

Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

umm it's here already,and ireland cant take it at all ( think travellers)
Ireland is slow to take any form of change,as seen in 1590's when the plantations started(extreme example i know). what makes you think now that we will open our arms to every other culture on the planet after our previous experiances(BTW i'm NOT racist,just saying what i think is happening).Ireland will do it's best to oppose immigration, we are used to tourists,staying a while, but when they want to stay for longer?

[edit] dev's comment in it's self is racist [edit]

Boston

Originally posted by DeVore
Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

seriously.

DeV.

Since you didnt address this ill take it your taking to the orginal poster, and even if your not this applies to bonkey.

I love the way someone cant voice and opinion stating that they are not happy with the immigration policy in this country, without being compared to a nazi. Its a god damn joke, and to do so only humanises and normalises what the nazis where.

many people in this country dont like immigrants, are they all racists, many have very good reasons. If i hate god some for that same reason i would hate a white person, am i a racist?

I notice now adays that old comments of lazy, stupid, druken, lay abouts is being used in connection to these people, well this is not a first in irish history, often those coming from deprived areas where refered to in this fashion, and often it was true(personal experience) now that many immigrates are moving into the same area, does that make these "facts" any less true.

some of these people ive meet are nice, some are downright annoying while others scum is the olny word i can think of, if that makes me a racist then that makes you a hypocrite

Sand

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2%

Let's be clear. "Fitting in" to Irish culture entails drinking non-stop, eating bad food, having no dress sense, and being unable to dance.

An inferiority complex (wait for the flames) can work both ways.

Still though its clear that supporting immigration, multi culturalism and the introduction of new curry recipes and dance moves is a "Good Thing", and opposing the above (for whatever reason) clearly makes you a "racist nazi bastard". Debate over. I wonder how extremists are able to exploit peoples insecurities and problems when the establishment encourages such widespread debate of immigration? Its a real mystery.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Boston
I love the way someone cant voice and opinion stating that they are not happy with the immigration policy in this country, without being compared to a nazi. Its a god damn joke, and to do so only humanises and normalises what the nazis where.

Note that I'm not accusing you of Nazism, but it's always worth remembering that the Nazis and the millions of Germans who supported and aided them were normal human beings. These things all start somewhere. People are highly sensitive about attitudes to immigration because even casual stereotyping and dehumanising can lead to violence, entrenched inequality, and so on.

The Corinthian

Ireland is a multicultural nation. Always has been. English is hardly indigenous, for a start. Neither is Christianity. Or horses. You think the ancient Celts founded Dublin?

In fact the Irish are even racially a mixture of Celtic, Viking, Norman and Anglo-Saxon - to name but a few. All groups who came to Ireland and became “more Irish than the Irish themselves”.

In fairness, I can see the danger with multiculturalism. The above began as alien cultures, but were integrated into and became part of Irish culture. Both cultures changed and became one. Where a new culture enters a nation and, for whatever reason, fails to integrate into the culture, that’s where one gets the problems. As Ruaidhri already exemplified, we have Travellers in Ireland – a separate sub-culture that has never integrated into the mainstream.

Ghettoised cultures, or sub-cultures, are not good. They generally represent a separate grouping that feels little or no allegiance or responsibility to the nation in which they live in. This may not be due to any fault of their own, but that does not make it any better. And indeed, it is sometimes the new culture that is the one unwilling to mix.

Where multiculturalism has failed, it has invariably been due to the inability of the new culture to integrate with, and indeed alter, the indigenous culture - and visa versa.

The extreme, or more correctly ridiculous, should not be taken as an excuse to ignore possibly valid argument against immigration. Also, the economic arguments that would generally be used against immigration, are a separate issue, and should not be confused with the issue of multiculturalism. To view this issue from racist or anti-racist poles would bee too glib.

With regard to Áine Ní Chonnaill and her supporters, they are a subculture within Ireland - the remnants of a culture that has already changed and moved on. Rabid, psudo-nationalistic Catholicism has always caused me amusement, if only because of the inherent contradictions of advocating stopping Eastern Europeans from immigrating here, while simultaneously going to trips to Rome so as to bow to one.

Personally, I’ve always preferred being a half-breed to a half-wit, myself.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by shotamoose
People are highly sensitive about attitudes to immigration because even casual stereotyping and dehumanising can lead to violence, entrenched inequality, and so on.

As someone on the receiving end of a fair bit of that sort of thing throughout my life, I'd like to point out that you're talking complete crap.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
btw, which culture should get to stay in Ireland - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish...

All of them. They've all been here for centuries.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Von
Like the vast majority of people in the republic, liberalism and respect for other cultures (even prods!) and nationalities (even the bloody brits!) are values I was brought up with. If anyone does not share those views then perhaps it's they who refuse to "fit in" to Irish society.

I respect other races and cultures. I don't see why we need them living here though.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sand

I wonder how extremists are able to exploit peoples insecurities and problems when the establishment encourages such widespread debate of immigration? Its a real mystery.

Nice one Sand.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Ireland is a multicultural nation. Always has been. English is hardly indigenous, for a start. Neither is Christianity. Or horses. You think the ancient Celts founded Dublin?

No it's not. We don't have a separate Celtic community, a separate Viking community, a separate Norman community etc.
The only significant separate cultural community in Ireland then is the Ulster Protestant community, who integrated so well we had to create another country for them to live in.

Just to clarify, when I say I am opposed to multiracialism and multiculturalism, I'm not saying I don't want any other races or cultures living here. I just don't want so many of them that we have to start making special provisions for them as a separate community.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
All of them. They've all been here for centuries.

Then you accept that while they were not always part of 'Irish Culture', given their longevity of tenure, they are now?

And do you feel they have, on balance, contributed positively?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Then you accept that while they were not always part of 'Irish Culture', given their longevity of tenure, they are now?

Protestants in the Republic, yes. Not in the North.

And do you feel they have, on balance, contributed positively?

No. The Ulster plantations were an absolute disaster for Ireland, leading to continuous conflict over the next four centuries.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

No it's not. We don't have a separate Celtic community, a separate Viking community, a separate Norman community etc.

Ireland is a multicultural nation - It is the accumulation of the many cultures that have lived here and interacted throughout the centuries.

All nations evolve so, a point often forgotten by many of us.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Protestants in the Republic, yes. Not in the North.

No. The Ulster plantations were an absolute disaster for Ireland, leading to continuous conflict over the next four centuries.

What about the Jews? Or Protestants in the Republic? You're evading the question with exceptions.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Ireland is a multicultural nation - It is the accumulation of the many cultures that have lived here and interacted throughout the centuries.

But they have no separate identity, which is what I understand by multiculturalism.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What about the Jews? Or Protestants in the Republic?

Yes ok they're great.

You're evading the question with exceptions.

A pretty major exception!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
But they have no separate identity, which is what I understand by multiculturalism.

But they did not always fit in - but they did eventually.

We all have separate identities - Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies, etc. The GAA would be out of business otherwise. And I don't go to a Synagogue on the weekend? Do you? Isn’t that a separate identity?

You really have to sit down and think about how you define multiculturalism Biffa. I don’t want to sound condescending, as I don’t, but you don’t sound as if you’ve really thought it out yet.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Yes ok they're great.

So you'd throw them out if they arrived today?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
But they did not always fit in - but they did eventually.

It was easier for Vikings, Normans etc. to be assimilated as they were all white races. It is much harder for darker-skinned people to be assimilated.

We all have separate identities - Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies, etc. The GAA would be out of business otherwise. And I don't go to a Synagogue on the weekend? Do you? Isn’t that a separate identity?

Yes we all have different identities to some extent or another but Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc would all see themselves as Irish. Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc do not exist anywhere else other than Ireland. Immigrants would see themselves as Nigerian-Irish or Romanian-Irish and that distinction would always persist.

You really have to sit down and think about how you define multiculturalism Biffa. I don’t want to sound condescending, as I don’t, but you don’t sound as if you’ve really thought it out yet.

You're probably right there, it is hard to define exactly what I mean, but it would be helpful if those who see multiculturalism as a "good thing" could give us their definition.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

So you'd throw them out if they arrived today?

I'd apply the same criteria to letting them in as I would to letting anyone else in.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
It was easier for Vikings, Normans etc. to be assimilated as they were all white races. It is much harder for darker-skinned people to be assimilated.

Because they looked different? That’s actually quite relative, at the time that they arrived in Ireland they might as well have been Martians for the racial similarity they shared with the indigenous population. By the way, Jews (who you described as great are fairly dark skinned too. They managed.

Yes we all have different identities to some extent or another but Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc would all see themselves as Irish.

That’s a bit of a U-turn on your previous argument.

Immigrants would see themselves as Nigerian-Irish or Romanian-Irish and that distinction would always persist.

Linke the term Anglo-Irish perchance?

You're probably right there, it is hard to define exactly what I mean, but it would be helpful if those who see multiculturalism as a "good thing" could give us their definition.

You already said it yourself - “they’re great”.

None of those groups considered themselves Irish originally. And now they do. And they have added much to the culture and life of this nation. Yet were they to arrive today you would throw them out.

There are certainly valid arguments against multiculturalism and immigration, but not those being exposed by you. I believe your premise is primarily xenophobic and the arguments are induced from that. As such they lack reason.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I'm in favour of strict immigration laws and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society. However, I don't think much of Aine O'Chonaill.

Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Because they looked different? That’s actually quite relative, at the time that they arrived in Ireland they might as well have been Martians for the racial similarity they shared with the indigenous population.

Come on now. There might have been a few more blonds among them but that's about it.

By the way, Jews (who you described as great are fairly dark skinned too. They managed.

Actually they didn't really. Jews never fully integrate, no matter where they go.

That’s a bit of a U-turn on your previous argument.

Well maybe it is but as I've said it can be hard to explain exactly what you mean.

Linke the term Anglo-Irish perchance?

There isn't really any distinct "Anglo-Irish" community in Ireland. It really just describes people whose ancestors were big landlords a century ago.

And they have added much to the culture and life of this nation.

Only those groups that have integrated fully. People from Nigeria or Romania aren't necessarily going to integrate to the same degree. And you're ignoring the Ulster-Scots, whose presence in Ireland has been an absolute disaster historically.

I believe your premise is primarily xenophobic and the arguments are induced from that.

I think that's unfair. I can only say that I don't dislike anyone on account of their race, ethnicity or nationality.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney


Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

The language she uses can be too extreme. I don't think it does her cause any favours.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Come on now. There might have been a few more blonds among them but that's about it.

I wonder what a blond would look like so someone who’d never seen one before?

As for the Celts and how they looked: "[Queen Boudicca of the Iceni] was huge of frame and terrifying of aspect with a harsh voice. A great mass of bright red hair fell to her knees." - Dio Cassius.

Actually they didn't really. Jews never fully integrate, no matter where they go.

Are you retracting your previous assertion that “they’re great” then?

Well maybe it is but as I've said it can be hard to explain exactly what you mean.

What I mean is how can you accept your own arguments if they are so blatantly contradicting?

There isn't really any distinct "Anglo-Irish" community in Ireland. It really just describes people whose ancestors were big landlords a century ago.

They would disagree.

Only those groups that have integrated fully. People from Nigeria or Romania aren't necessarily going to integrate to the same degree. And you're ignoring the Ulster-Scots, whose presence in Ireland has been an absolute disaster historically.

That’s an assumption, and a questionable one at that. I’ve went to school with a chap of Romanian decent (long before it was unfashionable to be so). He integrated well.

As for the Ulster-Scots; they forcibly colonized, not immigrated.

I think that's unfair. I can only say that I don't dislike anyone on account of their race, ethnicity or nationality.

Unfortunately your arguments are not coherent. The appear to begin with the premise that multicultural is bad and then grasp at reasons for this to be true. When these reasons are negated, you grasp at new arguments. There are valid arguments as I’ve said against multicultural societies, but you’ve not espoused them.

Hence, the only alternative is that the bases for your arguments are irrational and emotive. That does point towards a dislike anyone on account of his or her race, ethnicity or nationality. It is difficult to avoid that conclusion when faced with your reasoning.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

In fairness I'll read up on her arguments, before damning/exalting her. My (emotive) gut would be that she would be another one of these Roman Catholic fanatics that would force us all to work on the land and speak in Irish. This is an unfair assumption, although experience has taught me probably correct, without further investigation.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Von
Obviously ignorant of Irish history. Sounds like you need citizenship classes.

Ok, go on. Educate me.

Hahaha. I'll tell my jewish friends to "fully integrate" or else.

Dunno what you're on about.

That's an ignorant prejudiced view.

Why?

Anyway, neither are Brits or Italians going to necessarily "integrate fully."

Then we shouldn't let them in in large numbers.

Who cares. I don't.

I do.

What does "full integration" mean anyway? Conforming to a pathetically insular (probably sexually repressed) view of Oirishness that is a mix of fantasy and childishness? Who's the model of Oirishry the wogs should copy? Jackie Healy-Rae?

Hehe, spot on.
Nah, I just mean that they should no longer view themselves as Nigerian or Romanian or wherever they come from.

Nicking all the land, and selling the peasants they didn't kill into slavery more than likely had something to do with it.

But the fact remains that when immigrant groups don't fully integrate into society it causes trouble down the line.

...but you don't want to see nig nogs in the streets in case they stick you in a pot and eat you.

I don't have a problem with "nig nogs" in the streets and I don't have a problem with letting a few of them into country, I just don't want a lot of them in so they start forming separate communities, unintegrated into society.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I wonder what a blond would look like so someone who’d never seen one before?

I'm sure we had a few of our own homegrown blonds back in them days.

Are you retracting your previous assertion that “they’re great” then?

No. I'm sure most of the immigrants in this country are nice people too, it's just that when there are large ethnic minorities in a country it causes problems. There has never been a large Jewish community in Ireland.

What I mean is how can you accept your own arguments if they are so blatantly contradicting?

I don't see what is contradictory about them.

They would disagree.

Well I've never met anyone who would consider themselves Anglo-Irish, and if there are, I'm sure it's a very small number of people.

That’s an assumption, and a questionable one at that. I’ve went to school with a chap of Romanian decent (long before it was unfashionable to be so). He integrated well.

Again, it's not a problem when there are only a few of them. It's only when there's lots of them that non-integration becomes a problem.

As for the Ulster-Scots; they forcibly colonized, not immigrated.

As I said to Von, the fact remains they didn't integrate and that has caused major problems.

There are valid arguments as I’ve said against multicultural societies, but you’ve not espoused them.

What are they then?
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's so great about a multicultural society, except that the PC mafia tell us it would be a great sign of our machoority altogether begob.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I'm sure we had a few of our own homegrown blonds back in them days.

No many. Blond hair isn’t even an Aryan trait in origin.

I don't see what is contradictory about them.

You first argue that the right of Jews was based upon the fact that ”They've all been here for centuries” – now it’s because they didn’t arrive in enough numbers.

Well I've never met anyone who would consider themselves Anglo-Irish, and if there are, I'm sure it's a very small number of people.

But demonstrating a level of diversity that you denied existed earlier in the thread.

Again, it's not a problem when there are only a few of them. It's only when there's lots of them that non-integration becomes a problem.

Again immigration volume is your new argument - please back it up.

As I said to Von, the fact remains they didn't integrate and that has caused major problems.

The Germans didn’t integrate well in Poland in 1939 either or the Europeans in America. Is that the same kind of immigration?

What are they then?
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's so great about a multicultural society, except that the PC mafia tell us it would be a great sign of our machoority altogether begob.

You have to figure out the pros and cons on your own. All I’m going to do is point out when you’re speaking without reason, in the hope you’ll work it out for yourself.

Hobbes

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly.

Hmm, but if the large numbers will destroy our boom then we will go back to a small amount of people wanting to enter and more will immigrate? But if the boom gets better then we can blame those immigrants?

So it's a win-win situation?! Woo-woo!

You know I used to think Irish people were pretty open-minded but since coming back from the US they are just as Xenophobic as lots of other countries. Some of the crap I've heard just amazes me (the worst being a person I know claiming Chinese people eat babies! she was deadly serious as well).

Illegal immigration = bad.
people who immigrate with the intent of adding to society = good.

I'm not against immigration but I do believe the laws shouldn't be as lax as they are. Beyond that I don't have people coming to Ireland to live.

Sand

Im still waiting to see a good argument for multiculturalism that doesnt involve dance moves. If a solid reason for it cant be found perhaps its not all that desirable before we even consider the associated problems.

Ireland isnt diverse. The one ethnic group we couldnt assimilate into an overall Irish identity led to the partition of the country. While we dont have any census returns from the 10th century its safe to assume that given the dangers involved with travel in those days meant that the Vikings werent all that numberous - The first generation would have been Vikings settling in Ireland, the second generation would have been Vikings born in Ireland, the third generation would be undistinguishable from the Gaelic Irish. The same process occured for the Normans who were accused of being more Irish than the Irish themselves after a few generations. The plantations came and suddenly up sprang a large amount of people who arrived with a sustainable culture which wasnt Irish. Whilst to a large extent the cultures have blended in the South where plantations either failed or were assimilated by the native culture - again failing in their original purpose to create an Ireland of English and Scots, the fact that the North, which was the region of the single most effective influx of a non-Irish culture, is still riven with hate sown 400 years ago doesnt say a great deal about multi culturalism.

Corinthian makes the point that the planters arrived in taking land etc - fair enough- that would lead to bitterness - but after a few generations it should basically die out, shouldnt it? An exiled Plaestinian can show his son where the land he was driven off in 1948 is. Can a republican in Belfast show his son where his Great great great..........great great grandfathers land was today? So why is the hate still there? Its a clash of cultures- they havent integrated, theres a them and us and thats all human nature needs to pick a fight if were honest. A similar thinking leads to the ghettoisation and rioting and crime that weve seen in Britain and other countries. Weve got ample evidence of the problems associated with multiculturalism and the costs associated with them. We havent got a lot of evidence of the benefits, beyond funky dance moves of course.

johnKarma

i think we have to accept that multiculturalism is in evitable in this country, to a certain extent at least. if we are to take our commitments to the UN (the geneva convention in particular) seriously we must take in asylum seekers.

the reason that so many asylum seekers turn out to be in fact economic migrants is that ireland does not have anything approaching a proper immigration system. we are one of the only countries in the world that does not have an annual quota-based immigration system, and this in a time whren there was a labour SHORTAGE in the country?

multiculturalism can be destructive. look to britain where poor management of immigration led to disastrous segregation and the race riots we saw last year. parties like the BNP thrive on the sense of unease cretated when local communities are left swamped, lost in a sea of alien culture.

some cultures (as evidenced by the asian communities in britain) are resistant to integration, the net result being division and violence. recently, the british government has proposed that a naturalisation programme be compulsory for new entrants to the country.

why not adopt a similar strategy here? we should try to benefit from multiculturalism as much as we can, and try to avoid its more destructive element.