The Solution to all our Problems/Internet Co-operative

solutionz

I'm a newbie so forgive me if I'm not the first to suggest this.

I'm interested in computers and the internet and always have been. I design websites and spend most of my time on the internet at an outrageous cost.

It seems to me that we're all in the same boat, but we're waiting for someone else to do something about it. We want cheap internet access and we expect to get it one day, but we're asking people with no personal interest to help. Eircom and Esat are only in it for the money !!

I suggest that we start our own non-profit ISP. Make sure enough people are interested, then buy the neccessary server server hardware and modems, the neccessary connections and a freephone 1800 line (used to be about £10,000). Divide the costs evenly between members at a monthly cost. The more people that use the service, the cheaper it will be. It could take a year to set up but would be well worth while if it was successful. People could connect at a cost of as little as 5 EURO/month.

I have not researched fully the cost of such a project but if it was viable I would be more that willing to set up. I know that 1000s would have to use the service for it to be worth our while. Watch this space for further information on cost, ect.


Your faithful servant,


Donal King

Meh

http://www.irishwan.org/

Paddy20

Solutionz,

A not for profit ISP scheme is very worthy of encouragement.

As for getting enough people interested. I feel sure that the media would give this type of idea/story adequate coverage for you too be able to judge the public interest.

My initial reaction is that it is a proposal similar too the co-operative movement and their principals could be applied too a ISP with each member of a Non-Profit registered co-operative holding shares for as long as they wish too remain members using the ISP services structure.

The co-operative movement was born out of a basic need amongst people for fairly priced essential goods. It is now a worldwide long established system which works for the benefit of shareholder/members.

Maybe, you might seek the help of the co-operative movement in Ireland in relation too your idea.

I will watch this space with interest & good luck for now.

Yours,

paddy20.

Tellox

do you have any idea how much that would cost?

dahamsta

do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Lots. The devil's in the details. We could put a team together tomorrow, but VC would be next to impossible. It's just not viable in the current regulatory environment, which is totally skewed to Enterprise. Which is very, very wrong.

Solutionz, I'm sorry, but you've got your head in the clouds. The only way you'll get something like this going is if you get us in a room with Denis O'Brien.

adam

Paddy20

Solutionz,

The Co-operative "Enterprises" that exist all over the world. Operate under a strict regulatory structure.

The only "Real" differance between them and private enterprise is that it is the members/shareholders that reap all the benefits, and not some private group of capitalists who only wish to fatten their personal bank accounts.

Do not listen too the knockers or sceptics. If progress was left too them we would still be living in caves in the hills.

Good luck to you, once again.

Paddy;)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by solutionz
I suggest that we start our own non-profit ISP. Make sure enough people are interested, then buy the neccessary server server hardware and modems, the neccessary connections and a freephone 1800 line (used to be about £10,000).

Does this £10,000 include the cost of calls or are these billed per minute to the ISP (I know the end user is not charged).

Winters

Tis a good idea. You would need to charge for it though. A non-profit org, you would last aboot 5days before major costs cut in. free internet..no call charges would mean half of ireland would connect. A small fee like the iol nolimits (But less) would keep you going.


I think its a good idea though but still doesnt solve the fast internet. Everyone is waiting for DSL now....and we will seem to have to wait longer.

TitanFire

Okay.. Firstly - very worthwhile idea - I think it's worth our while investigating it.

Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Eircom offering DSL for wholesale €49? Doesnt that mean that a potential DSL ISP just ahs to pay Eircom €49 a month and all is well on that side? If so, then why not create our own ISP and say charge the customer €55 or so (extra €'s to cover costs, as I'm SURE there are other costs...) Then, we offer DSL to the public using Eircom's own infastructure at prices that undermine Eircom... eh?

Now, what's wrong with that? I'm sure lots, but I'm interested to find out the flaws in the plan...

On a sidenote.. Whoever posted the link to IrishWAN.org.. forgive me, but could you explain what that site is all about? I haven't the time to browse through it now..

Yours, etc.

infomat

I must admit that the same idea has being going through my mind for the last few months.

longword

Originally posted by TitanFire
Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Eircom offering DSL for wholesale €49? Doesnt that mean that a potential DSL ISP just ahs to pay Eircom €49 a month and all is well on that side?

Nope. That price includes a link from the customer to the exchange and very little more. An ISP has to pay for a high capacity link from Eircom's network to their own network and they have to arrange for their own international bandwidth and peering. Those 49 euro only cover about half of the equation.

Don't forget the 350 euro installation charge either.

TitanFire

The €350 is a once off and I see no way to circumvent that..

Do you know what would be the FULL price the ISP would have to pay to Eircom?

We should investigate it further.. could be worthwhile.. Either that or we stand for election or we infiltrate the Eircom board and lower the prices that way?

Anyway...

solutionz

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas. I just had another thought, however this would require cooperation on a large scale basis.

The irishwan.org website gives information about the various Wide Area Networks in Ireland's 32 counties. A WAN is not a connection to the internet. Rather the Internet is an example of a WAN, in fact the largest WAN in the world.

WAN's have many ways of connecting most notably by use of a telephone line. However there are wireless WAN's and these are used by irishwan.org. A transmitter or aerial of some sort is put on top of your house and if you are within the line of sight of someone else connected to the WAN you can connect to it to by having the aerial installed.

My suggestion would be to have a few servers connected to the internet permanently and for the information on the internet to be sent to computers connected to the WAN via a wireless connection. Therefore a telephone line would not be needed.

The more further the WAN spans out the more accessible it would be. This also paves the way for free websites accessible within the WAN.

PS: I thought the COOP idea was interesting and worth pursuing.

timod

You should probably get in touch with the wireless group in your area.. there are quite a few about.

(there's also a wireless forum on boards:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=86 whoich might be a better place to delve into the technicalities of it)

Paddy20

Has the time arrived for a "ISPC" i.e. an - Internet Service Provider Co-operative?..

Ireland is not new to the Co-operative movement. Massive business enterprises are "Co-operatives" which benefit the owners/members, and the communities in which they are based.


For instance here are a few:-

1. Irish Dairy Board.

2. The Credit Unions

3. The Co-operative Bank (UK)

The "Yahoo UK & Ireland" site lists hundreds of thriving co-operative enterprises. Thats before you even begin too look Worldwide?.

One in particular:-" http://www.internetfuture..com" - looks interesting even though it is UK based.

Another site which might be helpful is :- Mike Lawlor & Associates at, " www.it-ireland/mla/.

If the moderators of this forum consider this "Question" too be socially and or economically significant . Then maybe they could turn it turn it in too a straight - YES/NO POLL?...

paddy20.

Tellox

fact of the matter is, we'd never get enough money to do an iol-nolimits scheme, we'd need to charge €35 for 6pm - 8am just to try keep off bankruptcy, and there are they people who badly abuse those services. Like I did with nolimits, I had my computer on 6-8 & all weekend just for the fact of having it on..

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Tizlox
fact of the matter is, we'd never get enough money to do an iol-nolimits scheme, we'd need to charge €35 for 6pm - 8am just to try keep off bankruptcy, and there are they people who badly abuse those services. Like I did with nolimits, I had my computer on 6-8 & all weekend just for the fact of having it on..

Which means you are into a situation of people using the system excessively, then booting them off for overuse - and you end up being Esat

SkepticOne

Here's my view. I don't think profit margins are that great in the commercial ISPs. The 1-800 number is unlikely to be the solution since, in addition to a fee, the organisation operating the number will be charged per minute for calls (correct me if I'm wrong) and these costs would have to be charged to the subscriber. If there were significant savings to be made this way, an independent ISP like connect.ie would have employed it.

I agree with the suggestions to explore wireless technology. In addition to 2.4GHz 801.11b, 5GHz 802.11a equipment is beginning to appear.

Check out the Government fibre rings project. Find out if your local authority is planning on taking part. If not, ask why not. If they are, then you should be able to set up wireless transmitters at one of the nodes and be able to tap into vast amounts of cheap bandwidth. Obviously, join IrishWan for technical advice.

Paddy20

Would members and others be prepared too pay around Euro 20.00 each.

So that, a proper feasibility study could be carried out in too the need for and what - time frame - would be involved, in setting up a ISPC- Internet Service Provider Co-operative.

Obviously, a specialist consultancy firm would have too be hired too compile a comprehensive report and a "five year business plan".

I have a strong feeling that such a plan and any consequent co-operative enterprise would qualify for "Grant aid" as a co-operative and a new enterprise under various local and National EU funding schemes. These grants usualy amount to around 50/% of the true cost initially.

But, the main question here is would you pay or risk investing Euros 20.00. This money that each person invested in a study/business plan could then be credited as part of a shareholders/members share certificates in any resulting co-operative.

Maybe this "Question" should be posed as a Yes or No "Poll"?..

Paddy20

jd

Originally posted by paddy20
Obviously, a specialist consultancy firm would have too be hired too compile a comprehensive report and a "five year business plan".

em that would *eat* money...

Paddy20

jd,
"em that would *eat* money...

Please elaborate?...

jd

Originally posted by paddy20
jd,
"em that would *eat* money...

Please elaborate?...

I tend to be a bit wary of some consultancy companies

MrPudding

Originally posted by solutionz



I have not researched fully the cost of such a project but if it was viable I would be more that willing to set up. I know that 1000s would have to use the service for it to be worth our while. Watch this space for further information on cost, ect.


Your faithful servant,


Donal King

Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong but I think a 1meg leased line is around €50000 per year, there is also a massive installation charge. A co-op isp would have to become one of the biggest isp's in the island overnight to even think about shouldering those costs.
At Dublin WAN we are trying to take things a little bit slower and with more realistic aims. Initially we want to set up the wireless LAN with as many people as possible. We have a few node up at the moment with more on the way. This WAN will primarily be used for gaming and file sharing. The cost for this will be a one off of €200 to €300 depending on what gear you get. As time goes on and DSL prices go down we will probably start connected to the web through shared DSL or cable modem connections. There will be no ongoing cost for the WAN but the costs of net access will have to be split. We have a couple of members who works for companies with very fat pipes, there is a chance that we may be able to get access to these after hours. (we hope) If any of this sound interesting to you should check out this site- http://www.irishwan.org/ you can get help and advice here. If any one has any questions which aren't answered on the site send me a PM and i'll do my best

MrE

Paddy20

jd,

Quote:- " I tend to be a bit wary of some consultancy companies" end quote.

We all have the same tendency. However, many existing co-operatives would I feel be able to suggest a trustworthy consultancy or Government sponsored Agency who could carry out this study and prepare a business plan at a reasonable fee, especially as Ireland OFFline itself is a "Voluntary" Org, with an established track record and quite a high media profile.

As it has not got any funds o its own. It would surely qualify for some aid towards the costs.

There are a number of Information Technology Centres linked to higher educational establishments throughout the Country who would be in a position too offer professional consultancy services relating too the setting up of a ISPC.

However, I am not sure if I am getting accross my point of asking the question. Would people instead of complaining about the lack of the service they require, be prepared instead to put some money in too a fund so that the issue can be properly researched instead of having too rely on the "Voluntary financial generosity and never ending admirable efforts of the small number of highly dedicated people operating within Ireland OFFlines various Committees, a thankless task at the best of times?.

If pro-active business initiatives are what is needed then money is needed. Catch 22.

If the membership is not even prepared too fund a feasibility study by contributing 20.00 Euros, then where are we going or have I lost the thread.

I seem too remember that it was now up too the moderators of this forum to decide what wouldconstitute a poll.

Well, may I suggest that we test the water by using a "Poll" to find out if people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and raise the funds to obtain the information that could end up saving us all a small fortune.

"Would you contribute 20.00 Euros for a Internet Co-operative, feasibility study/business plan" ?...

Dustaz and Sceptre, please consider making this a "Yes or No" Poll. !!.

Thanks,

Paddy20

jd

Originally posted by paddy20
"Would you contribute 20.00 Euros for a Internet Co-operative, feasibility study/business plan" ?...

Dustaz and Sceptre, please consider making this a "Yes or No" Poll. !!.

Thanks,

Paddy20

paddy
You can set up a poll yourself if you start a new thread....
click new thread and you will see the option!

SkepticOne

Originally posted by paddy20
Well, may I suggest that we test the water by using a "Poll" to find out if people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and raise the funds to obtain the information that could end up saving us all a small fortune.

"Would you contribute 20.00 Euros for a Internet Co-operative, feasibility study/business plan" ?...

Before you do that, I would suggest that you post whatever idea you have to the Net/Comms board here. If the idea can survive scrutiny there it is probably a good idea. Any major holes in the idea will be spotted. This will cost nothing. Then consider consultants. They are a waste of money if you don't do your own preliminary investigation.

Paddy20

jd,

Sorry, There used too be a poll setting up option, but it has vanished??.. or am I dreaming.

Paddy.

muchos_bongo

A few points...

Interconnect
Interconnect rates
Switching gear to teminate Interconnect and instigate inband transit to modem gear
Modem gear
NOC personnell
NOC infrastructure
International bandwidth
etc..

Tot tot tot tot tot......

Ooooh....about EUR10 Million initial outlay. Balance that against a three year payoff to investors........

I'll let you finish the math.

Ever wondered why telcos own the ISPs?

jd

Originally posted by paddy20
jd,

Sorry, There used too be a poll setting up option, but it has vanished??.. or am I dreaming.

Paddy.

Still there for me -if you click on new *thread* for a forum-near the bottom

Dustaz

Paddy, please read the rest of the replys before asking for a poll. A lot of people would "invest" 20 quid without a second thought if the idea is feasible. Reading the replies it seems its not.

Tellox

sorry to be the one who brings us all back to reality, but we're walking around with our heads in the clouds. Unless some of us won the jackpot a few times on the lotto, I dont think we stand a chance of getting this idea off the ground.

A 100% free ISP right now is just a pipe dream, unless somebody buys 20ADSL's in dublin and hooks up the whole country to 56k always-on access.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Tizlox
sorry to be the one who brings us all back to reality, but we're walking around with our heads in the clouds. Unless some of us won the jackpot a few times on the lotto, I dont think we stand a chance of getting this idea off the ground.

A 100% free ISP right now is just a pipe dream, unless somebody buys 20ADSL's in dublin and hooks up the whole country to 56k always-on access.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that it would be 100% free. I disagree that the whole cooperative thing is futile.

This should all be discussed on the Net Comms board, but anyway...

First of all, you have to decide what mechanism you are going to use to deliver bandwidth to the homes. The options are:

1. Eircom's network in the fashion of a standard ISP. As Muchos Bongo points out, most ISPs are controlled by telcos. This makes it very difficult for independent ISPs to survive. You will be competing with ISPs that are actually owned by telcos.

2. Eircom's local loop via LLU. There is some promise here, namely a relatively low monthly charge. DSLAMs and other DSL equipment have all come down in price. A project is in progress in the US to use DSL to provide broadband to 40 members of a cooperative. You will need a telco licence.

3. Bypass Eircom's local loop using wireless. A variety of options are open here. Some of them require special licences and others are very limited in power. Nevertheless it is an option. You will probably need a telco licence as well.

4. Lay your own wires. This is not as mad as it seems. A project in Wellington, NZ linking up the business district using ethernet cable linked together using cheap PCs running unix as routers. It works.

There are probably more options.

Then read everything you can on the chosen option and try to work out the cost.

Then, if necessary, call a consultant.

None of these will be easy, but there are examples of them working or nearly working in the world.

Paddy20

Tizlox,

Where on earth did you read that a 100% free ISP right now was a reality??...

Thats the biggest load of hogwash I have ever seen and an insult to the intelligence of your average IOFFL member.

Co-operative enterprises live and work in the real world and they must stand or fall by the rules of the marketplace, with one "vital" differance. They operate for and on behalf of their member/shareholders who benefit because profits are ploughed back in so that the members can have cheaper goods or "SERVICES". It really is that simple. It works - and the pieces of paper known as share certificates can be sold by any member at any time for the full market value of each share.

Perhaps, Skepticone is correct when he suggests that this should be discussed on the Net Comms board?... However, if a suggested "Poll" requesting funding for a feasibility study is rejected on this forum where the suggestion developed from an original Solutionz thread. Then that would appear totally illogical too me.

It appears we are all prepared too line Eircoms pockets by running up on-line bills - but when in reality it comes to funding a feasibility study which is step one in finding a resolution too our main problem. A deadly silence descends - the "POLL" suggestion is given the thumbs down from Dustaz before it is given a chance too draw breath?...

What exactly is happening - It is beyond me, and this is where I sign off from this forum for good.

leoc

I don't think the ISP idea will work as intended. For one thing, I expect it's not commercially feasible. This isn't because it would cost a lot of money, or even because it's difficult to raise capital for telecoms or Internet ventures at present. It's because you would be very unlikely to get back any of the money you spent.

It's all about barriers to entry. Anyone establishing a FRIACO ISP in Ireland at the moment would face high and unpredictable costs and delays. To start with there would be the ordinary and relatively predictable - but still significant - costs, mainly those of buying your hardware and paying your engineers to install and tend to it. But of course the real questions are how much money you would end up tithing to Eircom, how much time and money you would spend tussling over how much you ought to have to tithe to Eircom, and how much Eircom would drag their feet even after conditions had been agreed or imposed. But let's assume you do indeed get through all the hoops before your money, or your creditors' patience, runs out, and you are about to offer the country unmetered dial-up Internet access. Now, if not sooner, you encounter the real problem. Eircom faces almost no delays or marginal cost in introducing the same service. Some time before or shortly after you launch, Eircom offers everyone unmetered service, at a rate not far above (perhaps indeed below) the one you intend to charge. Competing against Eircom, you would be most unlikely to get enough subscribers to cover your running costs, let alone recover your capital investment.

So is trying to launch a FRIACO ISP to offer unmetered access a bad idea? Not /necessarily/. After all, if the mission is to make unmetered available rather than to make money, then getting Eircom to offer unmetered access is 'mission accomplished'. Note that once Eircom makes a reasonable unmetered offer available, they will have great difficulty in taking it away again, for PR and regulatory reasons. Therefore the ISP wouldn't need to stay going for very long after Eircom brings in unmetered. In fact, if Eircom were to pre-empt the ISP's launch by bringing in unmetered before then, it would probably be unnecessary to begin service at all. Similarly, the ISP wouldn't need state-wide coverage. For those same regulatory and PR reasons, it would be impossible for Eircom to make unmetered available only to the areas which the ISP serves. In fact, probably all that is necessary is to cover a single well-chosen exchange, or perhaps a handful of such dotted around the country. Further, an application for FRIACO would remove the ODTR's excu^H^H^H^Hdilemma that it can't mandate FRIACO because no ISP has requested it.

Might it be feasible to do this? The ISP would of course need the skills and capital to actually set up and operate as intended if necessary. The capital would have to come from sources happy to lose all of their investment if necessary, so no VC, bank money, Enterprise Ireland money, etc. If the regulatory battles went well and ended quickly, and Eircom decided to go unmetered quickly in response, it might actually be possible to return most of the money raised, but of course it would be impossible to rely on that happening. On the other hand, the ISP would have to be able to make a profit in the absence of any serious competing unmetered offer, in case Eircom decided to try to call its bluff. (If the service is at all competently set up and run, surely that shouldn't be too hard in light of the huge demand for unmetered?) Since the name of the game would be winning the regulatory battle and proving our point, not building an ISP or making money back, equipment could be leased and work contracted out to reduce capital costs as much as possible without missing that minimal profitability target. If someone does want to put the issue of cost to the Net/Comms board, it would probably be better to put it in these terms rather than just asking "how much is an ISP?", which is a quite different question. Once we have a back-of-the-envelope figure, we can compare it to a back-of-the-envelope estimate of how much money could be raised for such a purpose. My casual guess is that tens of thousands of euro is probably doable, low hundreds of thousands of euro might be concievable, and millions of euro is right out.

BIG FAT CAVEAT: I'm no expert on anything, and I haven't exactly been researching any of this. All of the above is just offhand, semi-informed guesswork.

The Cigarette Smoking Man

I think the only way of getting a flat rate ISP off the ground is to bypass Eircom altogether, ie Wireless. The cost of bitstream DSL would only make the overall cost marginally cheaper than Eircoms offerings. Also the cost of putting DSLAMs in exchanges is not cheap, there's a huge capital requirement there plus the cost of the connectivity from the individual exchanges back to the ISP.

I think the approach that the Irishwan group are taking is the right way to do it. Their model gives them direct access to their users with no money going to another company. This effectively saves them €49 a month per user, therefore the only cost they have is for the bandwidth they need to run the service plus their network costs. The only way to compete with the large telcos is establish a large customer base and then buy bandwidth in bulk. Then you'll be able to introduce contention ratios, which will in turn bring more savings.

With wireless you could also offer tiered services, for example a lot of people don't want/need broadband so you could offer an always on 64k option for a lower price. Another advantage of wireless is the bandwidth which can go up to 11Mb on 802.11b, so you could offer your users higher bandwidth for traffic that stays within the network. Eircom et al with their DSL won't be able to match that. Expanding on that, you could peer with other Irish ISPs and because of the relatively low cost you could offer higher bandwidth to traffic that stays within the country.

My €20 is in the post