Euros and cents reopened

Yoda

Dear ICDG moderator,

I did not spam the boards indiscriminately. I chose the lists I wanted to post to. There are many aspects to this problem. Some of them are particularly political, and belong on a Politics forum. Some of them touch on the Irish language, and belong on the Gaeilge forum.

I posted to the Irish Television forum because it is on Irish television that the problem is most acute. The media have taken the "legislative plurals" up, and it is the media whom I am trying to influence so they STOP broadcasting bad grammar into our homes hundreds of times a day. It's the media that has Gay Byrne vs. Eamon Dunphy battling between "euro and cent" and "euros and cents". It's the media that has RTÉ presenters hypercorrecting themselves and saying "the exchange rate is one euro is worth one dollar and fifteen cent".

That's not about "debating the rules of grammar".

Would you please reopen this topic on the Irish Television forum so that we may discuss this aspect of the situation there? If no one wants to discuss it, it will die a natural death as such threads do.

(Did you read my open letter?)

Thank you.

Elmo

The fishs in the sea.

that is bad grammer.

most people speaking the english lanuage have bad grammar, especial the english.

The queen can't even pronounce the lanuage correctly.

Its not like television presenters go around saying fishs and other non-pulars now is it.

Lets point out that the euro is only new to Ireland and we are used to saying Pounds and Pence.

And lets face it the pound wasn't even our currency at the time. it was the punt. 10 punts would have been incorrect should it not have been just 10 punt?????

Also i still call 5 euro, 5 quid and 10 euro, 10 quid.

I also say give us a fiver or give us a tenner.

The only reason 10 euro is not 10 euros is because of other lanuages in the european union thus 10 euro when written is understood by all.

Sorry for any bad grammar in this message and also any bad spelling. (I hate it when i spell things incorrectly, don't have a problem when other people do.)

If this was newspaper i would be more careful.

Elmo

Is TG4 using 10 hEuro?????

This is very wrong, i cant see it happening.

It proable happens in other lanuages as well, It is just the way we speak.

Yoda

Originally posted by Elmo
The only reason 10 euro is not 10 euros is because of other lanuages in the european union thus 10 euro when written is understood by all.

This IS NOT true. While it is common in some languages of the EU not to mark the plural morphologically (German for instance) in most of them grammatical markers are applied naturally. French, Portuguese, and Spanish all say "euros". Finnish says (after numbers) "euroa". Cents are expressed in various ways, including French "centimes", Portuguese "cêntimos", Spanish "céntimos", Greek "leptá" (!), and Finnish "senttiä" (after numbers). So the whole rationale that "it's the same in all languages" is simply incorrect. And should not, therefore, be applied to the English language either.

Elmo

I thought that this euro thing was about not having any nationality thus there is nothing of national importance on the notes, The pictures are use to show the great Architecture across Europe (Thus linking us all in some unity).

I also thought the name of the Euro was use like Latin was use in the church at one time i.e. that we could all use the same name and lanuage (again linking us all in some unity)

I also thought that your argument told us not to say Euros rather than correctly Euro.

You did not answer my simple question of wether or not our national currency was not all the time used incorrectly on television when they said pound instead of punt.

So it is Deich hEuro and cuig hEuro agus Deich gCent.

Why then may i ask do all of the notes and coins say Euro and Euro Cent (Which are the correct names of the currency).

In america it is 5 cents not 5 cent, no??????

My advice is don't get so worried about it it is only a name.
I am also confussed to what your point is if it is not about Grammar?????

I dont know if your any good at other lanuages but perhaps they are wrong.

Its a new word an should be use as the people see fit and people say Euros all the time.

Elmo

Should of read your letter first before commenting

Yes I agree call it Euros and Cents if you want.

But It would have be a better idea if the non nationalist in Europe had changed it just to simple euro and cent.

I guess all nationalities have a nationality, and the people in brussels certainly do.

Sorry My Apologies.

But you should have made it clearer in your Thread.

Call it what you like. Its Only Money

Charles Slane

Originally posted by Elmo

Call it what you like. Its Only Money

When it comes down to it, people will localise it however they want.

For example, in Ireland people usually said ten pounds, but would just as easily say ten quid. No "s" at the end of "quid".

I reckon they should have called the new currency the "spondoolick"

beardedchicken

yes, but then, would it be referred to as 10 "spondoolicks" or 10 "spondoolick"?- which is more gramattically correct? will the french say spondoolicks and the dutch spondoolick, and how will that affect us in ireland?

ah...who gives a damn!! go roll yourself a spliff!

Yoda

Originally posted by Elmo
I thought that this euro thing was about not having any nationality [...]
I also thought the name of the Euro was use like Latin was use in the church at one time i.e. that we could all use the same name and lanuage

This isn't true. The currency has to be called "euro" not "ruble" for instance. But other countries are using the word according to their natural grammar and there is no earthly reason why we should not as well particularly as the rest of the English-speaking world is going to do so.

You did not answer my simple question of wether or not our national currency was not all the time used incorrectly on television when they said pound instead of punt.

So it is Deich hEuro and cuig hEuro agus Deich gCent.

I would say "deich n-eoró" and "cúig eoró agus deich gceint".

Why then may i ask do all of the notes and coins say Euro and Euro Cent (Which are the correct names of the currency).

Obviously it is convenient to have only one thing printed and engraved on the notes and coins. (The Greek ones say Euró and Leptá by the way.) That was the intent of the European Council regulation, and I have no problem with it. It is a far cry from that to having TV adverts parroting this travesty.

Its a new word an should be use as the people see fit and people say Euros all the time.

RTÉ doesn't. And that infects us all with bad grammar, because it is in our homes each and every day. That advert "Win a quarter of a million euro" makes my blood boil. RTÉ newsreaders saying "one dollar and fifteen cent" makes me very sad indeed.

Yoda

Originally posted by Charles Slane
When it comes down to it, people will localise it however they want.

Not if RTÉ keeps "teaching" us by example. People become inured to it, and that isn't right.

For example, in Ireland people usually said ten pounds, but would just as easily say ten quid. No "s" at the end of "quid".

That's because it's slang. News and advertisements did not use "quid"; they used "pounds and pence".

icdg

I don't want this to set an example to open all sorts of offtopic threads only tenously linked to television. We have rules here to keep things on topic, and I still maintain my original stance that there are better places on Boards.ie to talk about it.

But since you all must (well Elmo and Yoda anyway) insist on talking about it, let me add my two cents worth.

Yes, offically the plural of Euro and Cent are Euro and Cent. There has to be a standard plural across the Union for legislative reasons. I believe the French in particular would hate to see an -s added to euro.

But...in the English language, words are normally pluralised by adding an -s. However this isn't always the case. Compared to other languages, English is a highly irregular langauge when it comes to grammer. For example, the plural of fish is fish, not fishes.

Personally, as an English speaker, I do add an -s when speaking and writing. (Actually, I'm more likely to say quid). Its really a matter of personal preference, and nothing to get too worked up about.

Charles Slane

Originally posted by Yoda

That's because it's slang. News and advertisements did not use "quid"; they used "pounds and pence".

From dictionary.com

"quid Pronunciation Key (kwd)
n. Chiefly British pl. quid or quids
A pound sterling."

In other words, quid is not slang.

And oddly enough the plural can be either "quid" or "quids".

Yoda

Originally posted by Charles Slane
From dictionary.com

"quid Pronunciation Key (kwd) n. Chiefly British pl. quid or quids A pound sterling."

In other words, quid is not slang.

Argument by authority, I take it. Are you saying "If it's in the dictionary it's not slang"? Good dictionaries do report such words. The New Oxford Dictionary of English says of quid:"Brit. informal". Such language is not used when reading the news or producing advertising, for the most part.

Charles Slane

Originally posted by Yoda

Are you saying "If it's in the dictionary it's not slang"?

Patently not. If I had intended saying that, I would have done so.

I also don't believe in letting advertisers or newsreaders dictate how I should speak. If I did, I would probably end up referring to Dublin as "Doblin", and that would never do !!

Elmo

Sorry I would all ways say 10 Quid not 10 Quids ( A typo)

As for the rest of it, 1 euro and 15 cents i would say if i was reading the news, I would not say 1 euros and 15 cents.

1 euro
1 dollar
1 punt
1 pound etc.

That is all I am going to say on the topic.

ShaneOC

Originally posted by Charles Slane
If I did, I would probably end up referring to Dublin as "Doblin", and that would never do !!

Doblin - where the roundybouts are

Originally posted by icdg
let me add my two cents worth

Should that not be two cent?

ShaneOC

Back on topic now...

I tend to agree with Yoda to an extent. I did not realise that our European neighbours were using the plural form of Euro(s) and Cent(s). If they are using it I do not see why we shouldn't have been encouraged to do that from the start.

The damage may already have been done though as now I think it sounds strange to say/hear that something costs 5 Euros.

The position with cent is different though as it has been a currency unit long before the Euro was ever thought up. The plural of cent is cents. It should be consistant with every other nation that uses the cent as a unit of currency.

icdg

Originally posted by ShaneOC



Should that not be two cent?

If you insist

Like I said, matter of personal preference.

Yoda

Originally posted by ShaneOC
I tend to agree with Yoda to an extent. I did not realise that our European neighbours were using the plural form of Euro(s) and Cent(s). If they are using it I do not see why we shouldn't have been encouraged to do that from the start.

Because, as I have said, a mistake was made. Somebody dropped the ball and didn't advise McCreevy and the government appropriately. RTÉ followed what they thought the government wanted. But it was still based on a mistake, and there is simply no reason at all that a special, unusual plural should be used in English while "euros" is used in France, Spain, and Portugal, and there is certainly no reason that we should accept a change to the plural of "cent", which has had the plural "cents" in English for at least 350 years.

The damage may already have been done though as now I think it sounds strange to say/hear that something costs 5 Euros.

That's why I'm so upset about this. It only sounds strange to you because you hear it over and over again. Get over it. The right thing to do is resist this in your own speech and writing, and to get on to RTÉ and complain about it. (Note the relevance to this forum. :-))

I tell you truly, "five euros" doesn't sound strange at all. Any more than "five pesos" does. We've got to unlearn this habit. It is not too late to make the change.

Also, if you've read the open letter, you'll know that I predict that if we don't do something about this, the Brits sure will. Clearly the British populace is more concerned about the correct usage of the language than people here in Ireland are. This "Brussels interference with the Queen's English", I suggest, will be a reason the eurosceptics have to rally against the UK's entry into the EMU. Why shouldn't the Irish take the lead and sort this out now?

The position with cent is different though as it has been a currency unit long before the Euro was ever thought up. The plural of cent is cents. It should be consistant with every other nation that uses the cent as a unit of currency.

There's another part of the problem. Because of the mistake that was made in interpreting the Council regulation, for the purposes of European legislation, the plural in English is "euro" and "cent". So "cents" is not allowed. Now the Commission's Translation Service says "fine, do that when translating laws but when talking to the general public you should always use the natural plurals 'euros' and 'cents'." And that is NOT what the Irish government is doing, and it is NOT what RTÉ is doing.

As a general comment could I ask people who want to contribute to this or even argue with me about it to take the time to read the open letter? It seems that some have not bothered to do so.

Perhaps if you find that you agree you will send RTÉ some e-mails about this matter. I can't make any change all by myself, which is why I am here talking to Boards.ie.

Draco

Originally posted by Yoda


Because, as I have said, a mistake was made. Somebody dropped the ball and didn't advise McCreevy and the government appropriately. RTÉ followed what they thought the government wanted. But it was still based on a mistake, and there is simply no reason at all that a special, unusual plural should be used in English while "euros" is used in France, Spain, and Portugal, and there is certainly no reason that we should accept a change to the plural of "cent", which has had the plural "cents" in English for at least 350 years.

Did you read the links I posted up in the thread you put in Humanities? It explains why they use the s.

Charles Slane

Yoda,

Given your name, interesting it is to me that language you are so taken with.

To cross swords with such a mighty wordsmith, a fool it would be.

The force, may it be with you.

Or as Kramer would say, "giddy up !!".

icdg

Originally posted by Elmo

You did not answer my simple question of wether or not our national currency was not all the time used incorrectly on television when they said pound instead of punt.

Becuase it was the pound. Punt was merely an Irish rendering used to distingish it from the pound sterling.

Did you not see the notes: "Central Bank of Ireland Ten Pounds".

Currency Act 1927
"4.—(1) The standard unit of value of Saorstát Eireann shall be the Saorstát pound which shall be issued as hereinafter provided either in the form of a gold coin having a standard weight of 123.27447 grains of gold eleven-twelfths fine or in the form of a legal tender note or in both forms."

Decimal Currency Act 1968:

"2.—(1) On and after the 15th day of February, 1971, there shall be a denomination or unit of money in Irish currency which shall be known as the new penny and shall be one-hundredth part of an Irish pound."

Yoda

Originally posted by Draco
Did you read the links I posted up in the thread you put in Humanities? It explains why they use the s.

I read it. I answered it too. I knew about both those documents, and attached them both to my letter to the minister. Whom do refer to when you say "they" use the s?

My open letter explains why the pluralless form originated: it was an error in understanding a regulation that said that the name has to be the same in all languages. That meant it had to be "euro" not "ducat" but it did not mean that it was to be immune to natural grammar.

The first of the two documents you referred to was written by the English-language section of the Commission's Translation Service. They recommend that normal people and government and media use the natural plural, and that the unnatural should be restricted to legislation which is silly enough to use it. They recognize that a mistake was made, and they have fought against it consistently for some time.

The second of those documents shows the "official" forms which are to be used in writing legislation. It shows "euros" used in French, Spanish, and Portuguese, and it shows "euro" in English. It also has a footnote explaining, but not defending, the anomalous plural.

The point, of course, is that all this is unnecessary. There never was any reason for the s not to be used in English. And there is no reason for it not to be used now.

Have you watched RTÉ and TV3? Presenters are saying "euro" even when their guests are saying "euros", which seems to me to be rather rude. RTÉ's financial editor says "euros", thankfully. It seems clear that RTÉ made a policy decision based on what they thought the government wanted them to do, and it seems clear that the government, if it considered the question at all, thought that the Commission wanted us all to use the word "euro" with unnatural grammar and that the Commission saw fit to change the plural of the subdivision from the 350-year-old established plural "cents" to the idiotic and unsupportable "cent".

What right have the Commission to decree changes to the grammar of English? None whatsoever.

Richard

Originally posted by icdg

Yes, offically the plural of Euro and Cent are Euro and Cent. There has to be a standard plural across the Union for legislative reasons. I believe the French in particular would hate to see an -s added to euro.

I wonder why - the 's' pluralisation is even more common in English than in French - we often add 'es' but their plurals are nearly all just 's'

Personally, as an English speaker, I do add an -s when speaking and writing.

I usually don't - but that is because most people in Athlone don't and I feel odd if I do. I wholly agree with what you say, however, as I believe that while the official EU stance is Euro/cent, they say that documents intended for public consumption should be Euros/Cents. I can't provide a source for this, but you might find more on the europa.union.euro newsgroup.

(Actually, I'm more likely to say quid). Its really a matter of personal preference, and nothing to get too worked up about.

Very true - for me, the first Euro notes are "a fiver", "a tenner" and "twenty quid". And wild horses won;t stop me from saying that!

Richard

And anotehr point - the Spanish insist on saying "Centavos", and "corrected" my girlfriend when she used the word in Spain. In Spanish, the official word is "cent" but I think the situation is similar to the one in the Republic.

billy the squid

first time posting to IDCG

just one or two questions

Isnt there a forum all about money and business and all that jazz

dont the americans call it the Euro Dollar (jingoistic or what)

Richard

Originally posted by fcddunne

dont the americans call it the Euro Dollar (jingoistic or what)

Not as far as I know - though Paul Simon did refer to a "Euro Dollar" in one of his songs once - this would have been years ago. One or two Americans may call it the Euro Dollar, but then I have had several experiences of Americans not being able to comprehend a non dollar currency.

Elmo

Just cheaked out the old Ten Pound Note

The front of it said Banc Ceannais Na hEireann Deich Phunt (Sorry About the spelling) (I would of though that we would have use what was on the front of the note rather then the back of the note)

While the back said Central Bank Of Ireland Ten Pounds

Note the use of the pural in each, one would think that if we were supposed to say 10 Euros Then it would be printed on the note yet it is not, the same goes for all notes and coins.

So should we say "that will be 10 euro and 10 euro cent" ?????

sorry for going back to this thread.

Yoda

Originally posted by Elmo
Just cheaked out the old Ten Pound Note. The front of it said Banc Ceannais Na hÉireann Deich bPunt [...] While the back said Central Bank Of Ireland Ten Pounds. Note the use of the pural in each, one would think that if we were supposed to say 10 Euros Then it would be printed on the note yet it is not, the same goes for all notes and coins.

Actually the singular is used after numbers in Irish, so it's "10 bpunt" not "puint". And no, the mistake you've made here is exactly the one the government made about the Council Regulation, which really was intended to refer to the currency generically and with regard to what goes on the notes and coins. What is written on the banknotes and engraved on the coins is the same for all (except the Greek coins are in Greek and say EURO and LEPTO/LEPTA). But in languages normal plurals should be used, though it was not in certain regulations.

So should we say "that will be 10 euro and 10 euro cent"[/B]

We should not. We should say "ten euros and ten cents".

TV relevance: I received a brief response from someone in RTÉ about my letter. Basically they're doing what the government and the Central Bank asked them to do. It was suggested to me that my campaign isn't over.

I gather that some people in RTÉ would prefer to say "euros and cents" on air, but feel that they can't do so unless the government "lets" them. That's my view.

May I take a moment to encourage readers of this forum to write or e-mail RTÉ and complain that the normal plurals should be used, as recommended by the Translation Service of the European Commission?

Elmo

most presenters use what they fell like using i have found.

as do most people

Yoda

This rather begs the question as to why on earth should there be two competing plurals in the first place (what a cock-up), but in fact, Elmo, I have it from RTÉ itself that they are using the "legislative" plural because the Government and the Central Bank asked them to. RTÉ said to me that my campaign is not over. I gather that they are unhappy with this business, but feel that they cannot take a different decision on their own. The Government pays the piper, after all. I gather likewise that they would like me to prevail.

As far as people saying what they want to, you underestimate the influence television has on the weak-minded. (That is said ironically, not to insult anyone.) It's true that many people are using the "legislative" plural, mostly because they think they are "supposed to" -- but a lot of people I've talked to find it difficult to remember and are pleased to hear that they don't have to put up with this nonsense.

Elmo

TV3 had started using Euro on the weakest link way before RTE used it on any of their shows.

Everyone gets on RTEs back why.

Is TG4 using it the correct way in Irish?

I was not talking in general in my last post I was talking about this tread.