Isreal

dathi1

why does nobody seem to give a s h i t about the Palestinians?

dathi1

sorry should be Israel

Clintons Cat

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42878

dathi1

good stuff...im new here!.....what I mean is how come the Israely consulate here never has any pickets outside?

Boston

Im just posting to say im staying the hell out of this one and so should typedef and sands, i think our opinions are well known at this stage and someothers should get the chance to have a say

TwoShedsJackson

The lack of pickets outside the Israeli consulate may be down to the lack of people who give a toss - very few people in Ireland seem interested, and there are a negligible number of Palestinians here, as far as I know.

It seems to me that Israel are winding up to deliver the knockout blow to the Palestinans very soon, and with a man like Ariel Sharon in charge, it's a mere matter of time.

Lemming

Originally posted by Castor Troy
It seems to me that Israel are winding up to deliver the knockout blow to the Palestinans very soon, and with a man like Ariel Sharon in charge, it's a mere matter of time.

There wont be a knock-out blow for one reason. Sharon's policies are only inflaming matters more and more. THe more extreme the Israeli action, the more numbers join the militias. In order to effect a "knockout" blow as you put it, the israelis would have to to something ULTRA-extreme, which would needless to say, alientate the international communityand make the US shift VERY uncomfortably in their seats.

The whole situation is totally f*cked up Bring back someone like Clinton soon. At least he managed to keep a lid on the ME situation if not try to move things forward.

Xterminator

I think the US unconditional backing for Israel is creating a situation where they feel the can do anything they want with little repercussion.

I dont think the behavior of either side is acceptable given some of the atrocities commited which targetted civilians etc, but then the Israeli people voted for war when they elected Sharon, and they are reaping what they sowed.



X

dathi1

The lack of pickets outside the Israeli consulate may be down to the lack of people who give a toss

yes but what I find amazing is the fact that lots of left wingy type groups here can pull off demonstrations against war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Asylum seekers must stay ect... and yet an illegally occupied people are being pulverised as I type by one of the most barbaric land grabbing regimes ever to exist and no demos??? what's up?

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
yes but what I find amazing is the fact that lots of left wingy type groups here can pull off demonstrations against war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Asylum seekers must stay ect... and yet an illegally occupied people are being pulverised as I type by one of the most barbaric land grabbing regimes ever to exist and no demos??? what's up?

Possibly the "left-wingy type groups" dont feel that the issue is as clearly one-sided as you portray it to be.

jc

Typedef

Originally posted by Boston
Im just posting to say im staying the hell out of this one and so should typedef and sands, i think our opinions are well known at this stage and someothers should get the chance to have a say

I agree in principal, so long as no one starts dissing the Palestinians, in which case I will have to speak up.

Typedef

In fact having read the tone of this thread I would give my qualified support (without implicating boards.ie and it's benovalent rulers in anything) to possibly organising some kind of demonstration outside the Israeli consulate, especially as the weather is getting good it 'should' be possible to muster a few people to it.
Plus, I doubt the Israelis would get away with calling a load of middle class Irish guys terrorists and shooting us all on Irish soil or bulldozing some of the houses in the vicinity for 'harbouring terrorists'.

dathi1

I doubt the Israelis would get away with calling a load of middle class Irish guys terrorists and shooting us all on Irish soil or bulldozing some of the houses in the vicinity for 'harbouring terrorists'.

dont hold yer breath!

Sand

Plus, I doubt the Israelis would get away with calling a load of middle class Irish guys terrorists and shooting us all on Irish soil or bulldozing some of the houses in the vicinity for 'harbouring terrorists'.

Types right. Id assume theyd just call you "bloody students" and go back to filing forms and whatever else it is they do in the consulate:)

DadaKopf

I was thinking about this today. Israel's military offensive has escalated to horrific proportions in past days and for the next month at least, I think it's going to get a hell of a lot worse.

I know it sounds awful but it could actually serve the Palestinians well for Israel to totally lose the plot. If the violence escalates, and Israel targets the Palestinian consulates (which is totally illegal) and the fire and smoke and blood is syndicated across America, I can see public opinion quickly shifting.

It occurred to me today that if the violence escalates, American domestic opinion might suddenly shift to call for an end to the horrific violence. I'm not saying it would be due to extended support to the Palestinians but, rather, a pragmatic solution to the threat to life of the Israelis. It's in America's best interest to find a solution since the Jewish vote must be preserves, they're bankrolling Israel and they're looking for arab support to invade Iraq.

Lemming

Well well .. from victim to perpetrator .........

found this in today's "Star" newspaper.

ID Numbers outrage

An Israeli politician who surivived the nazi holocaust expressed outrage yesterday over Israeli troops writing identification numbers on the foreheads and forearms of several Palestinian detainees.

The men were awaiting interrogation during an army sweep of a West Bank refugee camp.

During World War 2, concentration camp inmates - most of them Jews - had numbers tattooed on their forearms.

Yugoslav-born Tommy Lapid said he told army chief of staff Lt.Gen. Shaul Mofaz and Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer the practice must cease immediately.

"As a refugee from the Holocaust I find such an act insufferable," Lapid said. He said Mr Mofaz and Mr Ben-Eliezer both pledged action.

Mr Mofaz said later he had ordered an immediate halt to the numbering.

This kinda says a lot about the current Israeli mindset where they are using the very same tactics the Nazis used against them. You would think that they of all people would be aware of this

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Lemming
This kinda says a lot about the current Israeli mindset where they are using the very same tactics the Nazis used against them. You would think that they of all people would be aware of this

The number of Israelis with any connection, let alone memory of the Holocaust are limited and decreasing. Other than the passing of time and the survivors of the Holocaust going the way of mortals, the majority of the Israeli population is not of European decent.

As a result that the Israelis would employ the same or similar practices is hardly a surprise, any more than young Germans who are questioning their ongoing war reperations to Israel.

Given the racial or ethnically based division in Israel/Palestine it was only a matter of time before such practices began to appear - After all, morality aside, branding prisoners with ID numbers is a practical solution to the logistical problems of processing them - the Germans thought so too.

Ultimately, the Palestinians have been largely disenfranchised and ghettoised for a long time now, reflecting similarities with the Nuremberg laws. So that it would be take a step further should not be a surprise to anyone. It is an historical inevitability.

Regrettably, Lapid’s outrage is the fading echo of the past. Human nature is the only constant.

Lemming

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Ultimately, the Palestinians have been largely disenfranchised and ghettoised for a long time now, reflecting similarities with the Nuremberg laws. So that it would be take a step further should not be a surprise to anyone. It is an historical inevitability.

Never realised that until just now Corinthian. It's actually an alarmingly similiar echo of what the Nazi's did to the Jews upto and during WW2. With that in mind, I feel ill that Israel is using the holocaust as a tool for drumming support and sympathy but at the same time carrying out the very same tactics on another group of people

I can also see why Germans would be feeling why they should be paying at this stage. I mean, how long do you have to go to let the past go. Remember it by all means, but don't live in it. I think 50 odd years on, the past can be laid to rest, no?

Hellrazer

Someone should take Sharon out!!!Hes the cause of the latest round of violence in the ME.It all started when he visited the temple mount.He is a Nazi.And hes using the Holocaust for sympathy while hes bombing some poor Palestinian with gun ships while the Palestinians are using rifles......SOUND FAMILIAR.Yep the Us did the same to the Afghans "firing a 1 miooion dollar missle into a 30 dollar tent" was a quote used during the Afghan conflict.The Americans are afraid to condemn the Israelis.Why?Because the american Jews hold the balance of power in the US.
And who do the Americans think they are.They can walk into a country who have invaded another and cause a Humanitarian crisis(IRAQ) and they also get involved in conflicts which are nothing to do with them in the name of "anti-terrorism".If Israel was any other country which invaded their neighbours(palestine)the americans would have bombed them long ago.What israel is doing is invading another country which is illegal and should be condemned by the whole world.They have no respect for the border with palestine and its only a matter of time before Palestine will not exist as an independant state with all the occupation going on.I hope that some other Arab countries start to back palestine and sort out the region once and for all!Israel as a state did not exist until 1967? when Jews invaded the middle east and took the land from the arabs claiming it was theirs.When I see a 6 year old being shot I feel like joining the struggle with the Palestinians.It has to stop and let Palestine have its own state.

gandalf

Richie next time you post can you try and get some accurate facts in there.

Most of your post is total rubbish. Isreal was founded in 1948. There is no Palestinian state proper (yet).

Gandalf.

Lemming

One more thing Richie .....

the American's didn't cause the humanitarian problems in Iraq. That was the doing of their own leaders. The embargo on Iraq does NOT include food and medicines, and they have been sent in frequently. But the powers that be are re-directing all of those resources to their militiary forces instead of to the people.

ReefBreak

I agree in principal, so long as no one starts dissing the Palestinians, in which case I will have to speak up.

I assume you mean the non-terrorist palestinians.

You see, this has been something I've been finding very annoying. It seems to me that the "left-wingy type groups" are quite imbalanced in their attitudes to the Middle-East. Naturally, they oppose the actions of Sharon over the past few months, and that's fair enough - I agree 100%. Sharon's actions have been dispicable. Yet on the other side, so have the actions of the Palestinian terrorists: bombs in nightclubs, buses, pizzerias, cafes. These disgusting actions are constantly being dismissed by phrases such as "symptoms of the conflict", "realities of the situation", "a right to defend themselves". But, these are words that could apply equally to the Isrealis. I will never support Palistinian terror or Israeli (state-sponsored) terror any more than I would ever support IRA/RIRA terror or British Army (state-sponsored) terror.

Typedef, if you wish to organise a protest outside the Israeli embassy, then I'll join you (banners and all) - but only on condition that we also sit outside the Palestinian embassy with similar banners protesting against the protection given by the Palestinian authority to civilian-murdering terrorists.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Lemming
I can also see why Germans would be feeling why they should be paying at this stage. I mean, how long do you have to go to let the past go. Remember it by all means, but don't live in it. I think 50 odd years on, the past can be laid to rest, no?

Actually, it's more like 60 years now.

Interesting article here, on the subject of the so called 'Holocaust Industry'.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I assume you mean the non-terrorist palestinians.

I completely agree, but on an aside I wonder what defines a 'terrorist' and what is a 'freedom fighter'?

I vaguely remember Terry Pratchet creating a parallel between the above and how we define angels and demons :rolleyes:

Hellrazer

Gandalf I dont think that most of my last post was rubbish.In my opinion the US will ONLY stomp on those countries which it knows has no chance of retaliation against them ie Iraq and Afghanistan.Do you ever wonder what would happen if Britain ever got pissed off with the situation in the north and decided to claim the whole lot of Ireland for itself.DO you think the US would help the Irish out.I dont think so!!!The situation is the same in the ME.The US hasnt got the balls to condemn Israel because it is one of their allies.As for the situation with American Jews...most of them are high up in large companies,politics etc. whereby if the US did condemn Israel they would have to take flak from people at home.I have seen the situation in Israel first hand .And innocent civilians are treated worse than dogs if you are a Palestinian in Israel.And sorry I wasnt sure of the dates I thought that the state of Israel was founded in 1967(well what is the signifigance of 1967--something to do with the expanding of the israeli state?i think).Sorry for that.As for the situation in Iraq Im not saying that the Americans caused the humanitarian crisis but surely the embargo should be stopped almost ten years after the war.Kids are still dying and the people are suffering hardship in Iraq.Sadam should be taken out but not by bombing innocent civilians.All I was trying to do was compare the situation in Iraq with that in Israel.2 dictators(sharon &sadam)both killing innocent civilians yet the US only takes military action against one of these.Not right is it?

Lemming

Originally posted by richie18
As for the situation in Iraq Im not saying that the Americans caused the humanitarian crisis but surely the embargo should be stopped almost ten years after the war.Kids are still dying and the people are suffering hardship in Iraq.Sadam should be taken out but not by bombing innocent civilians.

yes you did actually imply that they[USA] are responsible. Last time I checked the embargo is decided upon by several countries, and not just the USA.

Secondly ... read my above post RE the rest of the above quote.

And as for bombing civilians during the gulf-war, Hussein deliberately attempted to use his people as human shields, so perhaps the Iraqi authorities should be shouldering a large amount of the blame also, no??

But we are going off-topic.

dathi1

Palestinian terrorists: bombs in nightclubs, buses, pizzerias, cafes. These disgusting actions are constantly being dismissed by phrases such as "symptoms of the conflict", "realities of the situation", "a right to defend themselves".

You mean there is no way you will turn up outside the Israeli embassy...... Another case of I'll sit on the fence no matter what the war or cause cos I'm not like them. If some uniformed state terrorist came into my house and killed my brother and two sisters and blew my house up with a tank I would react in calm and civilised manner and try to deal with the situation diplomatically and peacefully...get real man!

Sand

You know, reading this since I last checked this thread I thought I was going to have to comment despite Boston's suggestion, because it was utterly one sided - no longer a debate at all. And whatever people think about my views they would have to admit that to have a debate you need a variety of opinions, not just the ones you agree with.

Then Richie started posting. God bless him. Hes even brought out that old corker "What if Britain invaded Ireland" gag.

There has been the obligatory attempt to blur the lines of "what is a terrorist and what is a freedom fighter" - which is meant to lead us to the conclusion that we dont know so we cannot condemn. Funnily enough people dont seem to have a problem with the question of "what is a Nazi SS and what is a Soldier". For me at least the difference is just as blindingly obvious.

I agree with what Reef posted to a large degree. Word to the wise- Ive been attempting to get the JPF to recognise that for several months now and they still dont get it so dont expect them to listen.

ReefBreak

You mean there is no way you will turn up outside the Israeli embassy...... Another case of I'll sit on the fence no matter what the war or cause cos I'm not like them.

So basically, you'll refuse to sit on the fence no matter what the war or the cause. Do you want peace or not? Obviously not. Or are you just blindly following the palestinian terrorists no matter what the cause while at the same time issuing statements regarding peace.

If some uniformed state terrorist came into my house and killed my brother and two sisters and blew my house up with a tank I would react in calm and civilised manner and try to deal with the situation diplomatically and peacefully...get real man!

If some terrorist came into my house and killed my brother and two sisters and blew my house up with a bomb strapped to his chest I would react in calm and civilised manner and try to deal with the situation diplomatically and peacefully...get real man!

Edited:
...But unlike you, dathi1, I'm only using this as an example. I will not blindly support the actions of terrorists no matter what the cause.

Typedef

First off let me be blunt and lets avoid needless politically correct machinations on this thread life is too short.

The simple fact is that the difference between an acceptable military dictator like General Musharaf and Saddam Hussein is a Kuaiti oil field or ten, so before we all collectively start getting on our pompus pro American high horses just because yesterday Bertie Ahern gave Irish support 'publicly' for American military intervention in Iraq (a move that has not to my knowledge been made by many members of Nato & Pfp), let 'us' acknowledge that aside from the Jew/Arab conflict in the Middle East the next single biggest grievance against the Us is the near two million people who are reputed to have died because of the current US sponsored UN embargos on Iraq.

Next I would say that I find the notion that the Palestinian culpability is akin to the Israeli a fracture of contiguous and quasi-(not even wholely) logical thought. Israel is the aggressor and if the simple root cause of Israeli occupation did not exist then the response (terrible in human suffering as it is) would 'not' be taking place. Therefore any attempt to equate the two is in my view logically and morally defunct and requires a knowing abrogation and selective evaluation of fact to negate the fact that Israel has invaded Palestine and is now 'fighting terrorism', but a 'terrorism' caused by Israels own infraction. Thus accepting that 'terrorism' is wrong and that Israeli occupation is wrong for me it comes down to who has the greatest ability to cease the hostility? In my view that is Israel, it can and should remove it's army from Palestinian areas, if peacekeeping is needed then the UN 'not' Israel should fulfill that function. This in my opinion is endimnifiction enough for me to accuse Israel and to oppose what I believe to be their principal fault in aggressing and thus exponenciating conflict in this instance.

Ok, part of the charter of the Green Issues board is to quote Devore Organisation of peaceful protest and peaceful political awareness campaigns , therefore I would assume that so long as any protest is carried out on the basis of bringing peace to the Middle East and is carried out in a civil and responsible way and without the presence of nazi or other anti-semite groupings it should be acceptable. Therefore the issue becomes what would a protest entail ie a call on both sides and thus a two site place of protest - in front of the Israeli and Palestinian(if they have one) consulates or simply the Israeli one? I myself as I have stated believe the Israeli's are the aggressor and the most powerful in this instance, but I'm sure others have differnet thoughts on this.

ReefBreak

Israel is the aggressor and if the simple root cause of Israeli occupation did not exist then the response (terrible in human suffering as it is) would 'not' be taking place...

...In my view that is Israel, it can and should remove it's army from Palestinian areas

I think this is debatable. [Edit - This isn't very clear. I'm referring to the fact it's debatable that the Israelis can stop the terrorism.] The Palestinian education system virtually promotes the expulsion of all Jews from Israel. Most palestinian kids are taught rather blood-thirsty anti-jewish songs from an early age. In fact, some extremists believe that the terrorist campaign will only stop when the Jews are driven into the sea (back to Europe/US).