Why ADSL and why bitstream

Endymion

Form what im told SDSL is allot cheaper and easier to set up then ADSL and has equall uploads and down loads, BT is going away from ADSL and towards SDSL.

ALLso why bitstream, its a sub stanard form of ADSL, it causes more problems for both the isp and the user, i think eircom have feiced up big with ADSL, with has been going on for 2 and a half years now.(yes that long)

Stephen

Eircom never get anything right on their first attempt.

Moriarty

carnivore - SDSL is not easier or cheaper to setup. SDSL is still quite new, and there are a number of competing standards still. SDSL is also high bandwidth, so therefore highcost connections, they are more towards E/T connections than adsl.

Now, Eircom have to offer full, unrestricted access to their exchanges by EU directive very soon. I think eircom are offering bitstream access to any telco's or ISP's that dont want to co-locate their own equipment in the telco exchanges around the country.

Hope thats set your mind at ease

---

Moriarty
moriarty@gamersfm.com

Endymion

sdsl is cheaper and to set up because it doesnt need pots (probably spelled worng but you know what they are)
thats why its better for both isp and user.
and you can get higher speeds.

that out of the way bitstream is still substandard and i can see us going throught all this **** again in to years time to up date it again.

as for the access to there local lope ie llu
that 2002 and they wil lstill ahev a testing out period so dont expect to have the same level of access as even england untill 2003,

Ps ADSL been set back another month to the start on may now

dahamsta

I can't comment on the price and ease-of-set up of SDSL, because I really don't know, so I'll just stick to what I do know. Then I'll theorise a little, because I'm like that...

First of all, BT is not moving away from ADSL and moving towards SDSL. BT has committed to ADSL and will have to continue with it for a while yet, because of the small market they're dealing with. (Comparitively speaking.) They bought the DSLAMS and the modems, now they gotta shift 'em.

Secondly, bitstream is not a substandard form of ADSL, it's a substandard form of Local Loop Unbundling. In basic terms, bitstream means that the incumbent operator gets to keep their copper. All the Other Licenced Operators get is bandwidth. ADSL is a technology, it doesn't matter whether you have bitstream or co-located access to the loop.

Thirdly, Eircom have to offer full, unrestricted access to their exchanges since _January 1_ by EU directive. Eircom seem to have some difficulty understanding that. Etain Doyle doesn't seem to be explaining it very well to them either. Eircom should be fined for each day those exchanges are unavailable to OLO's.

Fourthly, Eircom are offering bitstream access to telco's who don't want to co-locate their own equipment for the simple reason that it's the easy way out, and lets them keep control of the local loop. Which is precisely why the OLO's are pulling out of bitstream trials. Bitstream will do little or nothing for competition, which is the whole point of LLU.

Fifthly, the suggestion that SDSL is cheaper and easier than ADSL to set up because it doesn't need POTS is absurd. The whole point of DSL technology - *all* DSL technology - is that they use POTS instead of fibre. POTS stands for Plain Old Telephone Service, which you would know if you looked it up on Webopedia. Figure it out.

And finally, sixthly, the local loop will be unbundled this year. Bet on it. And an xDSL technology, probably ADSL, will be available to business users by the summer latest, but only in highly populated areas. Dublin first - they already have a fair few DSLAMS - then Cork, Limerick and Galway I'd guess. Consumers might not be so lucky, but you never know.

Now the theory. Why ADSL. Three reasons spring immediately to mind. One, ADSL is the biggest xDSL technology currently being used worldwide. The market in the US is enormous, and ADSL has been tried and tested over there. There are problems galore of course, but it's still the most utilised, therefore more R&D has been put into it, saving a hefty wedge for Eircom.

Two, SDSL is faster, and users will try and take advantage of that. They'll try and download more, they'll abuse it, and Eircon's network is shaky enough as it is without flooding it. Thirdly, related to the last point, SDSL is symmetric, meaning you get equal upstream and downstream rates. Which means people will try and abuse it even more by serving content, email, MP3's and god know what else over it.

The last two points are already proving themselves, as the WAN operators are putting caps on transfers on their wireless connections. Putting a cap on it is all well and good though, but you still have to monitor it. And people will still abuse it. And you can bet they'll refute the enormous bill they get for bandwidth at the end of the month.

adam

Coyote

dahamsta your 99% right on all of that but the last thing. It has not got a thing to do with people useing it to run mp3 servers, it has to do wiht the fact that eircon make about 30% of there money from lease lines and lease line customers are about 2% of there total customers, so you can see lease line customers are a cash cow for eircom. they have no choice they have to use eircom lines. SDSL is used for high speed data movement, so all the people paying 40 grand a year for a 2mb line would be able to get that 2mb line for about 4 grand (in germany 2mb line costs 100 quid a month)
and as for ADSL one of the board of Directors said "there is no tec resion that we can not bring in DSL, it is a economics resion that we have not brought out DSL"
(ie: it will cost them mills to pay for and then they will lose mills from there lease lines cash cow)
that was at meeting by eircom to there top 100 customers IE people paying them more that 1/2 mill a year.

hmmm

Actually, local loop unbundling is already in place since January 1. The problem is, Eircom in their reference offer have come up with these sky high LLU prices for supplying the services to the other operators.

The ODTR are reviewing the prices, and if they order any price changes they will be *retrospective* to Jan 1. The ODTR in their initial review said that they thought the prices a tad high (no s**t sherlocks). Two problems I can see

- The ODTR are spineless
- They were due to report before end February and are late again

dahamsta

You're right of course Coyote, but I didn't mention that for the simple reason that what you suggest is going to happen anyway. I was addressing the ADSL v SDSL question more than the wider issues.

When you get right down to it, it doesn't really matter what type of DSL is implemented. Whether it's vDSL or DSL Lite, it's going to hit two key Eircom target markets very very hard: low-end leased line customers and prospects; and ISDN customers and prospects. Current leased line customers - many of whom are already using HDSL, probably unbeknownst to themselves - will make the switch, because it will be enormously cheaper; and prospective low-level leased line customers will never even need to contemplate a leased line. ISDN is slightly different, in that current customers might be convinced to stay, because the cost of transferring could be prohibitive; but Eircom will rarely sign up a new ISDN customer. DSL will kill off ISDN, slowly but surely.

Of course, if it's SDSL, or an even higher bitrate technology, it's just going to make matter worse, but that's at the network end, and has little or nothing to do with revenue. It just means the network will be even worse off than if they implemented a lower bitrate solution. But the network won't be able to handle the lower bitrate technologies anyway, so it's par for the course.

DSL is a lose-lose for Eircom. They'll lose key revenue generators and their network will be exposed for what it is - wet string. That's no excuse for Etain Doyle to put it on the long finger though. Eircom's network is in the state it is because of Eircom. It's their own fault, they didn't strengthen it while they had the chance, choosing instead spend their ill-gotten gains on acquiring crappy companies that were inevitably destined to go titsup.com; and paying themselves enormous bonuses for management that was naive at best, incompetent at worst.

One final point: Although ADSL will most likely be the technology that will be implemented, at the start at least, the suggestion that it's the only technology that will be implemented is inaccurate. Ireland will have co-located access to the exchanges, not bitstream and not virtual co-location. This means that, given time, the OLO's will be able to co-locate what they damn well please. The only thing holding them back is the current technology in the exchanges; and the network. Which can be redefined as: The only thing holding them back is Eircom.

Eircom made their bed, and now they have to lie (!) in it. And it's up to Etain Doyle to stop pussyfooting around like a big girls blouse - or like Dave Edmonds for that matter - and get tough on them. Etain's a good regulator, making countless decisions against Eircom, but the time has come to get nasty with them. Regulatory bullying is the only thing that will put a leash on Eircom. And Eircom deserve a little bullying, they've bullied consumers and business for long enough. Turn the other cheek? No. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

adam

ADDENDUM: The suggestion that current leased line customers will switch to xDSL is slightly inaccurate, in that when xDSL becomes available they will be able to say to Eircom: "Drop your leased line prices or I'll switch to DSL". The end result is the same though - the consumer will have choice, and it will encourage competition. Which is the whole point of LLU.

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 09-03-2001).]

Shiminay

Out of interest, is there any way for punters like us to contact Etain Doyle directly? I'd like to have a "chat"

---

All the best,

Dav
@B^)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Prepare yourself - The Beefy King stirs from his slumber...</font>

[honey i] violated [the kids]

Endymion

"Two, SDSL is faster, and users will try and take advantage of that. They'll try and download more, they'll abuse it, and Eircon's network is shaky enough as it is without flooding it. Thirdly, related to the last point, SDSL is symmetric, meaning you get equal upstream and downstream rates. Which means people will try and abuse it even more by serving content, email, MP3's and god know what else over it."

i know were your coming form and i allso said the same thing when i read,(how the **** can that be dsl)
but believe it or not SDSL does not need pots making its cheaper and easier to set up.
im not interested in fighting on the point because theres so much crap with dsl that Theres probably 4 different ways of setting up SDSL.

now bitsctream thing is substandard, as america is moving and other eu countrys are(or will be) moving to a system based on electrons.the differents being that bitstream is manager totaly by the isp and the otehr isnt.

And BT for normal joe blugs users are installing ADSL and will continue, but bussiness are being upgraded to SDSL.

im sorry but you seem to know what your saying, but allot of your stuff is simply repeating what im saying in more detail.

which i thank you for as sometimes i dont get my point accross all that well

Endymion

Ps I do know what the **** pots means
Secound SDSL is and will be only faster on the upload.
i mean get full rate ADSL and you can go up to 8mbps down and 1mbps up.
of course that only with in to miles of the provider go that never going to happen here.

dahamsta

http://www.odtr.ie/contact_us.asp

Be nice.

Stony

yeah your only likely to get 8 down and 1 up only if you are pretty damn close to the exchange, bout 9000 feet or so.

usual max is 6.1Mbps down and upstream is 640kbps, and would be lucky to even see that here.. in practice your talking 2Mbps/128kbps.

SDSL is 2.048 up and downstream, hence the name Symmetric DSL for anyone new whos trying to understand the difference and differs from HDSL in that it only needs one line of twisted-pair.

Endymion

what are you people talking about
SDSL being 2mbps
sdsl has the same range of speed as ADSL
and its two miles.
ADSL is 10km (which theres a bebate about because eircom clams that llu will with it extend that.i dont know how)
VDSL is the one thats only 300 yards or so,
but at that you would have an atm line direct to the isp, what the hells the point,
how much crap can you download, i mean ive 33 gigs of a hd.

PS dahamsta i see they are in the irish life
might visit them

Coyote

all info pulled not for public sorry

[This message has been edited by Coyote (edited 09-03-2001).]

Endymion

Coyote yo0u make interesting clams, like ADSL being set back what 5 months?
and the 516k/256k thing hmm ADSL doesnt go up
and donw like that. its an independant line.
its not liek cable were the more thats online this less you get and isp will only asure you 128k
like jesus christ they cant sell adsl clam its 516k when you will only get 256k.
but you are rigth in what you say the the farer away you are the let bandwhith you get,
but saying 99% will get half is pushing it allot, id say most of dublin wil lget full but the country is another thing.

Btw you seem to think you know allot about something that there hasnt been any real news on for weeks.
i dont think anybody is a posision to make the clams you are.

Ps about the extend thing that was eircom hype, i cant see what llu (as they said)will haev to do will range

Kali

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Ps about the extend thing that was eircom hype, i cant see what llu (as they said)will haev to do will range</font>

err any xDSL tech. can easily be extended by unbundling the local loop if its fibre, by just running an ATM over the fibre and several DSLAMs (for connecting to the ATM) forward these signals to the individual DSL connections.

Endymion

do you really think eircom will do that.no i didnt think so, its hype that i dont see much head way in

Endymion

btw theres using pots instead of fibre but i wont go into to much about that because i dont know, maybe some body could explain the that part of it better then i.

Moriarty

Carnivore, ive been reading through your posts here, and i cant believe the **** your spouting

All DSL technology needs the POTS. Thats the whole idea behind dsl, and the some of the main ways in how it differs from leased line, or ATM connections.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">now bitsctream thing is substandard, as america is moving and other eu countrys are(or will be) moving to a system based on electrons.the differents being that bitstream is manager totaly by the isp and the otehr isnt.</font>

Erm, ok... where to start
Bitstream is not substandard in the actual technology provided, what bitstream actually means is that Eircom will setup their exchanges to handle dsl, and then rent access to this equipment to other Telco's at wholesale prices. It effects competition, but not the end technology offered.

I loose you when you start talking about the movement of telco's to 'electrons' - im guessing your meaning switching.. At the moment all switchs use electrons, along with any other electrical system around in use today. They are in the process of switching over to optical switching systems.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And BT for normal joe blugs users are installing ADSL and will continue, but bussiness are being upgraded to SDSL.</font>

Although im not certain, im pretty sure BT of all companies wont be doing this. As mentioned by dahamsta i think? SDSL will be a big hit to conventional telco income, as you can get the same service for far less, hitting revenue.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Coyote yo0u make interesting clams, like ADSL being set back what 5 months?
and the 516k/256k thing hmm ADSL doesnt go up
and donw like that. its an independant line.
its not liek cable were the more thats online this less you get and isp will only asure you 128k
like jesus christ they cant sell adsl clam its 516k when you will only get 256k.</font>

Carnivore - while the speed you are connected at to your local exchange may never change from the listed 512k service you bought, no telco will have a 1:1 contention ratio on bandwidth to every (or any for that fact) exchange they operate. So, at peak times, you wont get much more than maybe 256k, if they dont manage their bandwidth properly, giving each exchange enough for all its users.

---

Moriarty
moriarty@gamersfm.com

Kali

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Carnivore:
what are you people talking about
SDSL being 2mbps
sdsl has the same range of speed as ADSL
and its two miles.
</font>

ehh no. SDSL is 2Mbps both ways. It is no faster, and supports that speed at a distance of up to 11,000 feet.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
ADSL is 10km (which theres a bebate about because eircom clams that llu will with it extend that.i dont know how)
</font>

DSL needs repeaters every 5.5km (18,000 feet) so somehow I think thats wrong.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
VDSL is the one thats only 300 yards or so,
but at that you would have an atm line direct to the isp</font>

do you know what an ATM line is?
because if you didm youd realise thats crap your spouting

Endymion

listen about the pots i will not be moved
ill try to find the site i read in on but SDSL doesnt need pots.
i know what your saying but there some kind of new thing in america that gets around it.

about the BT and SDSL that could be aload of bull **** allso as i heard nothing since the first reports they were doing it.

the bitstream thing yea that waht i was talking about so i guess thats clear enough

as for the 256k adsl your right in what you say its just the way the other guy sad it, it sounded like he was talking about a constant 256k when im paying for 516k.
i dont mind as i work and ill only bo online from 6 anyway at home.

so thats all cleared up, ill see if i can find the pots site, ill post it here as im sure you all would be very very interested in it,, if i prove im not talking out my **** on the subject.


Ps thanks all for not turning this into a flame which it could do so fast.

Endymion

Kali i didnt mean you would have a atm line but something like its speed.
about the SDSL thing the way you said itm it sound liek you were saying all SDSL is 2mbps
normal ADSL will get 1.5mbps and full rate as follows


ADSL: Asymmetrical Digital Subscriber Line: A next generation modem technology that allows up to 8 Mbps downstream and 1 Mbps upstream. ADSL is comprised of ADSL full-rate and G.lite, SDSL: Symmetric Digital Subscriber Line: Is used often for symmetric T1/E1 speeds of 1.544/2.048 Mbps. SDSL makes an ideal and cost effective replacement for T1/E1 service.
IDSL: ISDN Digital Subscriber Line: A DSL flavor that uses 2B1Q line coding on ISDN basic rate circuits. It is used for data applications only and typically operates up to 144 Kbps. IDSL is like a nailed-up ISDN circuit.
HDSL: High Bit Rate Digital Subscriber Line: A mature, medium speed, symmetric technology. This technology is often used to implement T1 data circuits over phone lines. HDSL requires two pairs of wire for transmitting and receive. HDSL2 is a new proposed standard for running T1 data speeds over a single pair of copper wires.
VDSL: Very High Speed Digital Subscriber Line: A future technology to watch. It supports dedicated high speeds (10 Mbps to 50 Mbps) over short distances of 1 to 4,000 feet or 1.2 Km. VDSL is only in limited trial deployment today. Standards bodies are beginning work on an industry standard VDSL implementation.

now my figure were a bite out of it before but this is right

Endymion

btw ATM 155 Mbit/s Access rates to the ATM network of up to 155 Mbit/s. ATM circuits are available in Northern Ireland and Ireland from 2 Mbit/s up to 155 Mbit/s.
and there usualy fibre.

Endymion

Right to lay this down first

T1 (US) 1.544 Mbit/s
E1 (UK) 2 Mbit/s
E3 (UK) 34 Mbit/s
T3 (US) 45 Mbit/s
STM-1 155 Mbit/s
STM-4 622 Mbit/s
STM-16 2.4 Gbit/s
STM-64 10 Gbit/s

we all agree in right here i hope

secound

Loop Distance Maximum Line Performance
Up to 18,000 Feet/5.4km 1.544 Mbit/s
Up to 16,000 Feet/4.9km 2.048 Mbit/s
Up to 12,000 Feet/3.6km 6.312 Mbit/s
Up to 9,000 Feet/2.7km 8.448 Mbit/s

we all agree im right here allso i hope.
if not im going to ****ing bed


and finaly atm
Asynchronous Transfer Mode: A high-speed communications protocol used for transferring voice, video and data in a fixed length cell format of 53 bytes. ATM scales easily and speeds typically range from 25 Mbps to OC-192 (10 Gigabits per second).

so yea VDSL Would GET you well with in ATM speeds
i hope we can agree on that

Endymion

to lighten the tone a bite

Endymion

right about that pots thing
the SDSL they were talking about was essentially a rate adaptive form of HDSL
which if were all as smart as me say we are, we know hsdl doesnt support Pots becasue its based on a different tech to normal xdsl
so basically no need for pots if you get your adsl over fibre lines
some of you may think this make my statements bull but i did say at the start i was talking about one of many ways to set up
sdsl(and i know its not really sdsl if its fibre but thats what it is)

[This message has been edited by Carnivore (edited 09-03-2001).]

Moriarty

Couldnt you have stuck those last 6 posts in one post just as easily? And possibly pay a little bit more attention to spelling - makes it easier to read when sleep deprived

Most of also already knew what E/T rates were, and what they do... Quoting from a webby dosent necessarly mean you understand it

---

Moriarty
moriarty@gamersfm.com

Kali

well they were nice informational posts anyway

and then you go and say something like this:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">so basically no need for pots if you get your adsl over fibre lines</font>

which is so obvious it hurts:
"if you use fibre then theres no need for you to use your normal copper phone line"
whoa!

and why use ADSL over fibre? why? why why why?

xDSL is a technology for use over POTS and thats what it was developed for.
ATM is for fibre.
if you had fibre you'd use ATM.
if you don't you'd use xDSL as otherwise its not efficient use of your available bandwidth (if you have fibre you bloody well want to use it to its max)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">about the SDSL thing the way you said itm it sound liek you were saying all SDSL is 2mbps </font>

I WAS. and you just proved my statement yourself by following it up with:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">SDSL: Symmetric Digital Subscriber Line: Is used often for symmetric T1/E1 speeds of 1.544/2.048 Mbps. SDSL makes an ideal and cost effective replacement for T1/E1 service.
</font>

read that. it says 2.048Mbps. what I said.

I dont think I can handle this type of conversation any longer, I think I'll just agree with Moriartys second comment there

Endymion

hmm not really as different times i thought about them.
now posting stuff that you may allready know is not a problem, i just want something we all agree with.ok and you would be surprised the amounth of people tha tdont know that stuff.
Secoudn i understand everything i post but as keli pointed out with the ATM thing some times i dont make it clear so direct quotes are better then me trying all ****ing night to explain something about ****ing pots
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
need sleep.

Endymion

Ps whats with all the im not that way, i play for the home team

Endymion

listen about the pots thing
were iread it it said SDSL uses t1 tech so it doesnt need pots
thats exactly what it said,
then later it says the SDSL its talking about is really a form of HDSL
fine i thought then in another part it tell me its HDSL its talking about is fibre based.

at 12 o clock at night your reading thorugh something you dont notie that the they are talking bs to us.

As for fibre over dsl i dont ****ign know, as far as i know that shouldnt be all that good, dont ask me, its stupiod ****ign americans.

ANd i hate To tell you this again but not all SDSL is 2mbps it has a ****ing range up to 2mbps and thats the point im getting out, you make it sound like every body with SDSL gets 2mbps, is this what you mena, if so does that mean i can expect 8 mbps for adsl when it comes.like hell i can.

the amounth of stupid comments in the topic is out of this world, the thruth is none of us knows that much more about adsl then the other.
we can ***** all we want about 2mbps and atm lines and stuff but were never going to see it.

Kali

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Carnivore:
listen about the pots thing
were iread it it said SDSL uses t1 tech so it doesnt need pots
thats exactly what it said,</font>

first of all: it didnt say that. it said it transmits at speeds reaching T1/E1 speeds. Nowhere does it say that DSL uses T or E-carrier formats because it doesn't.

SDSL != T1/E1.

The similarity in speed is simply caused by standard US and European data rate multiples which DSL adheres to.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
then later it says the SDSL its talking about is really a form of HDSL
fine i thought then in another part it tell me its HDSL its talking about is fibre based.
</font>

yep as already mentioned in an earlier post, SDSL is related to HDSL...
SDSL is a single twisted pair variant of HDSL. this means it runs on one line. HDSL runs on two twisted pair lines.

(HDSL == twisted pair) != fibre.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
at 12 o clock at night your reading thorugh something you dont notie that the they are talking bs to us.
</font>

maybe you should wait till the morning to read it then, and perhaps understand it just a little bit better.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As for fibre over dsl i dont ****ign know, as far as i know that shouldnt be all that good, dont ask me, its stupiod ****ign americans.
</font>

for the last time: DSL does not work over fibre.. DSL is based on the fact that certain frequencies on standard telephone lines are unused and takes advantage of this.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
ANd i hate To tell you this again but not all SDSL is 2mbps it has a ****ing range up to 2mbps and thats the point im getting out,
you make it sound like every body with SDSL gets 2mbps, is this what you mena, if so does that mean i can expect 8 mbps for adsl when it comes.like hell i can.
</font>

Oh god give me patience.
OF COURSE I meant maximum transfer rates. Jesus what else would be talking about? Average rates? Minumum rates? When your standing upside down using IRC rates?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
the amounth of stupid comments in the topic is out of this world,</font>

very true.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
the thruth is none of us knows that much more about adsl then the other.
</font>

quite untrue.

This is my last post on this and hopefully I've cleared up some confusion and sorry if I'm not explaining things too clearly.

PiE

Sssh!

Sleep!