ISF calibration

Prisoner6409

I am looking to get my 32" W/S t.v. properly calibrated. Does anyone know of anyone who provides this service in Dublin. The t.v. is a Loewe Aconda.

Pyongyang

Sorry to resurrect a super old thread, however I am looking for the same service for a 50" plasma.

Any ideas anyone?

TCP/IP

Me to I would like this done as well.

John mac

you could try this guy, http://www.avforums.com/forums/isf-calibration/599158-isf-ireland.html

I dont know of anyone in Ireland..

gtg60

Worth putting a group of people together to get someone like Gordon over then the flight/ accommodation fees can be split.

TCP/IP

gtg60 wrote: »

Worth putting a group of people together to get someone like Gordon over then the flight/ accommodation fees can be split.

agreed count me in

pa990

wold this be any good

http://www.play.com/DVD/Blu-ray/4-/3475913/Digital-Video-Essentials-HD-Basics/Product.html?ptsl=1&ob=Price&fb=0

John mac

that will do basic stuff.

pa990

is it or something similar worth buying ?

John mac

not worth buying, as you can get a free one from here

be sure to read the instructions, (they are in a pdf download)



(this thread should prob be in HE )

adox

Gordon does travel over to Ireland so you should contact him. As said the more calls you get, the more chance you have of getting him over.

ISF calibration is expensive.:)

DVE is good for a basic calibration. Plenty of test patterns and also contains calibration for audio if you have a 5.1 system or something similar. Ive only had experience with the DVD not the Blu-Ray.

TCP/IP

I have PM'd Gordon and asked him to take a look at this thread and maybe join and comment. If he just PM's me back I will let you all know.

Gordon Fraser

Hi everyone. Got the pM from TCP/IP. I do come over a fair amount...last time was to do a job for one of your old rock stars......

I was supposed to be over this July or August in fact but my wifes friend who I stay with over in Castledermot is on a wee euro jaunt most of August...so it's looking like early Sept now. I have a few folk on my list to visit but if I get a few more I should be able to do this for normal UK price as I'll just absord the ferry and take a couple days holiday while over.

I am unsure whether you can advertise costs here or anythign lke that. On the UK forums you are very limited in what you can discuss business wise. It's usually best to email me direct..

Cheers

Gordon

TCP/IP

Thanks Gordon I dont think there is a problem giving us cost. Mods if you have a problem you can remove it. Thanks for taking the time to post

Gordon Fraser

Usually my fee is a flat £325 in UK but just now that's rolled back to my 2006/7 pricelevel of £285 as everyone is finding it tight in this financial crisis. I'd hope to be able to match that £285 for everyone in Eire. That's a flat fee that covers as man sources as you want looked at on your tv/projector....There are also discounts on top if you purchase on of my Lumagen Radiance processors at the same time.

Thanks

Gordon

TCP/IP

Thanks Gordon count me in. I am up for it. I live about 20min from Castledermot so that will be handy for you.

Rippy

John mac wrote: »

you could try this guy, http://www.avforums.com/forums/isf-calibration/599158-isf-ireland.html

I dont know of anyone in Ireland..

I do:D
Edmond Cogan of Carrigaline, Cork, 021 437 4798.
A very experienced technician, I have seen the difference this calibration can make. Amazing results!

M00lers

Hi all,
Gordon has calibrated my 2 plasmas and projector over the years with fantastic results. Highly recommended.

Pyongyang

Blimey, $5000 for a Lumagen XD. Is there really that much of a difference running an outboard processor to justify the cost of such a device?



I'd be interested to learn more about them. Thanks.

watty

If you have a test card, it's not rocket science.

Some DVDs have suitable tests.
Or buy a professional (not home made as levels likely wrong) DVD or BD with test cards.

Of course if you mostly watch DTT or Satellite, or change your player you may need to adjust the brightness and contrast slightly.

Gordon Fraser

There are different prices of RADIANCE. They go from around £2500 to £4000..and yes, they can make a significant improvement over what is in a player, amp or display (or other off board video processor). Radiance can load optimal settings based on content with no user intervention, applying gamma, colour gamut correction, sharpness, noise reductions etc as required. It also has what is regarded as the best scaling of any processor you can buy, regardless of money.

If just have a test card you cannot accomplish as accurate a calibration as someone with knowledge and actual measurement tools. It is not possible to set greyscale or gamma by eye, nor can you set primary and secondary colours (if those adjustments are available).

In the absence of professional calibration though a good test disc will help you to set the displays front panel controls (contrast/brightness/colour/sharpness) and this is definately worthwhile and recommended

watty

I've done "professional" calibration in BBC and also private studios of Monitors and Cameras.

With a suitable test signal(s) and access to R,G and B cut-off, and Gain of at least two of R, G & B, a manual can show a user how to make a huge difference.

Very few domestic sets have proper Gamma adjustment.

Also there is often a large difference between different sources, most of which have no adjustment.

Lighting levels affect the optimal settings.

So I'm not convinced that on most home situations anything other than a test card and step by step sheet is needed.

A suitable test signal with solid greys and solid colours plus dot pattern will allow very good approximation to gamma, if it's adjustable.

Grey scale is can be "good enough" by eye.

I also have developed in the past a calibrated camera / display system for remote matching of Crown colouring to patient's native enamel. That needed voltage regulated Halogen lighting at both ends with no extraneous light (real teeth and boxes of "crown" colour samples) plus serious calibration of each end. No domestic viewing needs that as the sources are too varied.

The actual colour of the primaries is fixed by the display technology, again if the gamma (grey + Red, Green & Blue separately) and grey scale is "good enough" the Primary & Secondary colours are as correct as the display technology allows.

It's important to not have LCD exposed (or worse only part ever exposed) to direct sunlight as this actually fades the dyes used in the colour stripe filter. Unlike OMLED, Exhibition real LED, Plasma and CRT, the LCD is inherently monochrome.

LCDs also get "burn in" (very visible in call center status displays) just not as fast Plasma.

CRT also get burn in, but much slower than Plasma and Colour CRT "burn in" seems slower than mono CRT.

A home made suit of test card burnt to DVDs unlikely to be correct. Ideally for Satellite Receiver or DTT receiver source (especially if using the overpriced "RADIANCE") needs an RF test card source. These run in the €Ks price range.

Gordon Fraser

Well you are very talented then if you can adjust greyscale by eye.....even with optical comparison it is hard, imho

You may also want to know that nowadays many displays actually have gamma and colour management systems that allow you to alter the primary and secondaries, as I am sure you know most domestic displays are actually way oversaturated on red and green.

The devices I sell, Radiance, have multiple memories to allow you to actually do colour gamut manipulation so you can make your display accurate to smptec, ebu or rec709 dependant on the material being viewed...you also have 21 point parametric gamma on r, g, b channels to sort out any weird greyscale humps and create custom gamma profiles. None of the above is simple to do by eye...but then of course not everyone demands such accuracy.

I agree that you can do alot with guidance and a test card though.

watty

Gordon Fraser wrote: »

[1]Well you are very talented then if you can adjust greyscale by eye.

...

[2] I am sure you know most domestic displays are actually way oversaturated on red and green.
....

[3]The devices I sell, Radiance,

...
[4]but then of course not everyone demands such accuracy.

...

[5]I agree that you can do a lot with guidance and a test card though.

(1) No. I'm not talented. Just trained. It's easy to have it "good enough", given the source variations. More accurate adjustment is needed for print/photography/Manufacturing colour matching (e.g. pantone), not Domestic viewing.

(2) Most domestic displays have Saturation way too high, period, though on many is cured by selecting RGB SCART or HDMI if there is only a "Colour" control on Composite sources. Blue on LCD, Plasma, OMLED and CRT sadly fades with age faster than Red & Green. Though I have seen a lot of CRTs with green channel gone low with age.

(3) Well, you see, I don't sell anything Except expertise.

(4) Only print/photography/Manufacturing colour matching (e.g. pantone), not Domestic viewing needs more accuracy than by eye + test card. Even in BBC the gizmos you hold up to screen where only used for demo at Training Centre. Not for aligning gear. Step 1: Align screen with test card by eye. Step 2: Align Camera with light box slides by eye on screen.

Also LCDs change with ambient temperature (Plasma change while warming up). CRTs. LCD and Plasma also with age. So any "highly" accurate electronic alignment won't last long, but of course due to accommodation of eye, visual examination of a test card will not show this.

So in the end a proper sequence of adjustments by eye from a selection of test cards is more than good enough due to variation of sources (Different TV channels, different programs on same channel, different setboxes, and different DVDs/BD)

(5) Thanks.

The BBC of course used to give people Colour Blindness tests... and in training centre instructor examine how good Monitors adjusted.

At least there is no pesky convergence to do any more.

I suspect triple DLP projector with Dichroic filter rather than evil colour wheel is the most stable source. Also since "professional" camera (or Film Scanner) uses Triple CCD with Dichroic filter to split lens to "red" "green" and "blue", then it's going to be the most accurate for colour rendition. The Plasma colours, LCD dyes and CRT phosphors vary in accuracy of match to the "Dichroic filtered" professional sources and that can't be "fixed" in adjustments or electronics.

The recent four colour LCD is a particularly daft idea (yellow added). RGB + white (clear) quad pixel mobile devices reduce the amount of backlight needed but also limit the colour gamut compared to "Dichroic filtered" triple CCD source. AMOLED are not true R G B LEDs, it's more akin to an electroluminescent display and includes secondary phosphors to "correct" colour. While they are nice on a portable device, it's dubious if they can give as true colour, especially over time.

Gordon Fraser

I do not seek to hide that I sell a product. It's not a crime and it's not something I am ashamed of. I am also not so arrogant as to tell folk that they should not want the best image quality possible and that they should be happy with, "good enough" for domestic viewing.

it's pretty obvious we have different takes on what calibration can achieve and whether consumers can see or appreciate the difference. No problems. If folk need me they know where I am.

watty

No problem you selling your service. Since this is a self help forum rather than advertising site, I'm giving people an alternate professional view on the value of your service for Domestic viewing. Which very valuable for specialist applications.

But I bet if I train someone with normal colour vision for 10min to 20mins that most people on a Double Blind test won't know if the BBC by eye method or your method is used.

And since the BBC doesn't use your method ...

Your method is 100% needed for print, design, photography and Manufacturing colour matching (e.g. pantone) though. But very few Domestic displays are good enough for applications that need accurate colour matching anyway.

M00lers

Nice, we get Gordon on our forums who is a well respected ISF tech and he gets this crap. He is also a gent and deserves better than this.

The way I look at it is this, if you care about getting your TV/Monitor or projector displaying what the director intended you to see and you have a display that has the neccessary tools to get you closer to that standard then why not?
For most people "good enough" is enough but for people like myself who enjoy and want an accurate image ISF calibration has been a no brainer. The extra profiles that ISF calibration opens up is also very handy.

watty

So the way the BBC does it is crap?
A independent review of what you are getting is crap?

You can read what I say, google other sources and decide if the service (which does what it says on tin) is actually worth it. My opinion is that this is a service that Industrial Colour Matching applications need, not a service that domestic viewers need.

I stand by my claim that on A-B blind testing the BBC method will be indistinguishable for almost all viewers and displays.

Gordon Fraser is offering a professional service and I do not deny that one iota. What expertise have you Moolers2000 to start rubbishing my comments as "crap"?

I think my phrase "Good enough" has been slightly taken out of its intended meaning.

Bob_Harris

moolers2000 wrote: »

Nice, we get Gordon on our forums who is a well respected ISF tech and he gets this crap. He is also a gent and deserves better than this.

What do you mean by "crap"?

M00lers

watty wrote: »

So the way the BBC does it is crap?
A independent review of what you are getting is crap?

You can read what I say, google other sources and decide if the service (which does what it says on tin) is actually worth it. My opinion is that this is a service that Industrial Colour Matching applications need, not a service that domestic viewers need.

I stand by my claim that on A-B blind testing the BBC method will be indistinguishable for almost all viewers and displays.

Gordon Fraser is offering a professional service and I do not deny that one iota. What expertise have you Moolers2000 to start rubbishing my comments as "crap"?



I think my phrase "Good enough" has been slightly taken out of its intended meaning.

Watty,
It wasn't the content of your comments that were "crap" more so the tone, as I read it.

Surely if someone goes to the trouble of organising an ISF calibration of their own display they must have a passing interest in viewing an accurate image.

For me, it was mainly for Blurays that the accuracy would be of most benefit. So was worth it for me. We have no contol over the image of any broadcaster and are at their mercy regarding picture quality.
At the end of the day my display is "better" than when I bought it and that's the point, surely.

Moo

watty

I don't like to see people wasting money. A BD test disk, instructions and service menu will, in my opinion achieve the same.

The whole point of these forums is not to sell stuff but exchange informed opinion and information.

I'll be the first to agree that my "tone" can be abrasive. Calling my post "Crap" because the "tone" offended isn't helpful to debate.

Gordon Fraser made very polite and reasoned comment to my comments, which I welcome.

M00lers

watty wrote: »

I don't like to see people wasting money. A BD test disk, instructions and service menu will, in my opinion achieve the same.

The whole point of these forums is not to sell stuff but exchange informed opinion and information.

I'll be the first to agree that my "tone" can be abrasive. Calling my post "Crap" because the "tone" offended isn't helpful to debate.

Gordon Fraser made very polite and reasoned comment to my comments, which I welcome.

Watty,
Bad choice of word on my part. Fair enough.
I'll gladly pay someone to do it for me. I wouldn't sleep easy wondering if I did it correctly. Peace of mind is priceless.:D

In the consumer A/V industry there are a lot of products that are a waste of money (too many to list) but I personally think ISF is worth it if you're into that sort of thing and don't have the time or required braincells to DIY.

Gordon has on other forums shared info and helped countless people to grasp the idea of DIY calibration all without a hint of a sales pitch and I for one value his membership on boards.ie.

Moo

azzeretti

I agree. I think Watty, your thoughts, while informative and no doubt accurate, would certainly be off putting to me if I was Gordon.

I don't see why it is nessacary in a thread, that was tending towards creating a list of people who WANT to avail of this service, that you "put it up" to him as you did. Should we all post in the Gardening Forum or DIY forum or Music forum and tell everyone in there not to get in professional landscapers, builders or rent recording stuidos because these jobs can be performed by people themselves? There is no doubth that in any profession, someone with training will know more about the product that a lay person. It doesn't mean that everyone should download a PDF and start head first into things themselves!
20 mins to you might equate to 2 weeks for some!

Tony

To be fair I think Watty was putting foward what he sees as good/bad value in his opinion. @ azzeritti Something you have done yourself in the past

azzeretti

Tony wrote: »

To be fair I think Watty was putting foward what he sees as good/bad value in his opinion. @ azzeritti Something you have done yourself in the past

Touché.

However, I mostly winge about prices being too high rather than trying to justify why someone, with no skills or experience, should just get stuck into to something that might be daunting to them............

.......queue reems of thread links to where I can be clearly seen to be contradicting everthing I am saying here!!

watty

azzeretti wrote: »

Should we all post in the Gardening Forum or DIY forum or Music forum and tell everyone in there not to get in professional landscapers,

But if you are a Professional Landscape designer, you might have strong opinions about the need for and value for money of some companies products. I use that as an example, because you want to hear my mum on the subject. She has won awards for her work as a Professional Landscape Architect.

I'm not suggesting something that requires a lot of time or a lot of training, A BD test disk and crib sheet, normal colour vision and ability to follow instructions. Also anything other than 3 x DLP + Dichroic filter is going to drift. So doing it once with a purchased BD disc or DVD (some films have a setup menu) is an investment to save time an money a 2nd time.

More importantly, while agreeing the technique works, there is a strong argument that it's only required for Industrial Colour Matching, that a visual adjustment with test signals is sufficient. As someone that has actually setup monitors and cameras for the day job for many years, and with BBC training in the subject, I think I'm qualified to offer an opinion.

What is skilled and nearly impossible is to do it without a test card

Tony

LOL yes to be fair to you your posts were price related.:)

azzeretti wrote: »

Touché.

However, I mostly winge about prices being too high rather than trying to justify why someone, with no skills or experience, should just get stuck into to something that might be daunting to them............

.......queue reems of thread links to where I can be clearly seen to be contradicting everthing I am saying here!!

eddiem74

watty wrote: »

I'm not suggesting something that requires a lot of time or a lot of training, A BD test disk and crib sheet, normal colour vision and ability to follow instructions.

So where would one get all that? I've yet to find something simple or straightforward to follow.

The best I have done so far is, I have gotten the DVE Essentials disk, and was able to use a couple of test patterns only after following a couple of basic videos on avforums on how to use them. I am no closer to using all the test patterns available, eventhough my projector does allow me enter menus to tweak RGB & Gamma settings, even though I am not sure what that might do.

I would say however, even after my own basic calibration of contrast, brightness, color, and sharpness, it made a noticable difference. :pac:

TCP/IP

Guys I invited Gordon to Boards as a fellow member of AV Forums. He is not selling his wares he was doing me a favor and coming and having a chat. Watty we all know you are vastly skilled in this area but some people including myself would like a professional to take care of their screen I don't have the time or the want to do this myself. Lets all be welcoming and nice please.

Ush1

I would imagine this is only really beneficial if you have a very, very nice setup that was expensive.

Otherwise the phrase polishing a turd comes to mind.:D