Fibre to every home in the State

davros

There is an article in the Business & Finance section of Saturday's Irish Times (Karlin Lillington again):

Irish Times article

Mostly it's the same info referenced in other posts on this board... broadband rings in provincial towns, etc.

But the last line is:

The goal is to bring a five megabit, always-on fibreoptic connection to every home in the State by 2005.

What? Where did that come from? I looked at Department websites to see if it was mentioned in any press release. Nothing. Nor is it in the recent Infocomms Working Group report.

If somebody in Government committed to that, it's worth a headline on the front page, whether or not they have any intention to follow through.

Baz_

i reckon its just propaganda coming up to the elections, just pop a nice good story hidden away that people will read and think good things of the government, and forget why. If it was frontpage there would be a lot more questioning and remembering, but then again, I'm a bit oversensitive when it comes to propaganda, brings me out in goosebumps. Tell me straight or not at all.

pete

I don't think that's an entirely accurate representation of the facts - certainly, a 5 megabit fibre connection is what the Govt. say will be connecting people to the new broadband network, but i don't think their claiming it for every home.

Phase One covers 19 towns/cities with populations >1500, and Phase Two covers a hell of a lot more - including dublin and cork - I just can't see how it could be given to *everyone*.

Like I said elsewhere, expect more detailed coverage of this tomorrow as Mary O'Rourkes announcement only went out late on Friday afternoon to other Ministers.

Coyote

Talk about brain dead, I hope that is a joke, as 5mb fibre at the curb would be a joke.
To make fibre worth putting to the curb you want to put 30-100mb lines in for TV, phone, Internet, movies on demand and product X (still to be invented . There are much easier way to do it is as in one city Australia, fibre optic to with in 300m of homes and then 36mb VDSL to each house. Much cheaper and faster to roll out.
It one or the other either Karlin Lillington has no clue what she is writing or our government prove they know about 0.01% about the state of internet in Ireland when there talking about putting 5mb fibre to peoples house, when DSL would give most people more that enough bandwidth. Even an un-metered ISDN net access would make most people a bit happier.

Coyote

pete

deleted. better not say anymore.

Boston

seriously sweden expects fibre to the home by 2005, thats probably what they are talkign about.

since sweden allready has a vast fibre network it doesnt surprise me about this as the spread of fixed costs would cover it

Bard

Originally posted by Boston
seriously sweden expects fibre to the home by 2005, thats probably what they are talkign about.

What are you on about? If you read the article, you'd see not a single mention of Sweden. It's Ireland they're talking about, and as far as I can see it's a load of drivel - spin for the election campaign.

Boston

Sweden expects 5mb fibre in most homes by 2005, this is were they are getting this crap from, its like saying were up there with sweden. understand now?

pete

Originally posted by Bard


What are you on about? If you read the article, you'd see not a single mention of Sweden. It's Ireland they're talking about, and as far as I can see it's a load of drivel - spin for the election campaign.

Election spin it may be, but it's election spin with (IIRC) €45million of the €60million already allocated to be spent this year on those first 19 towns.

Moriarty

The thing to bear in mind with this is that the ministers havent the first clue when it comes to matters like fibre backbones etc. They rely on their aids that specialise in the various sectors to explain to them what they do, and wether its a 'good' or a 'bad' thing. Ministers wouldnt have any idea if 5mbit fibre to each home was possible, economical, or wise, so because of this a lot of what they personally tell the press may be flawed due to their misunderstanding.

What has been pointed towards may very well be anything of a number of options-

• They are indeed planning to lay fibre to reach every home in the country.
  
  I have a feeling that this would have a much larger outlay than the costs they have planned, considering the amount of phyiscal plant that would have to be laid for this to occour.
  
• They are instead planning to use some form of DSL technology to deliver to the end user, placing nodes that have fibre running to them so that every home will be in range for VDSL, or some other similar service.
  
  The rub with this plan is that many more phone exchanges would have to be built, since higher-speed DSL technologys work over smaller distances than, for instance, ADSL. This would lead to another large outlay of cash, towards the building of these new exchanges.
  
• The state rolls out the fibre network to a number of regional nodes and then uses wireless technology to deploy to the end user.
  
  The problem with wireless is that its not a long-term solution which is what this plan needs to be. Wireless is an interim solution as it can offer broadband, but is not able to offer anything comparing to what can be put down a fibre optic cable. Wireless access is also impacted by the local terrain far more, there will always be black spots that will not be able to get service due to being in a valley, etc.

Whichever way this network is deployed (if indeed it ever is.. ) it will mean a large capital expenditure on the part of the state. It will also mean that we will be waiting another 1-5 years for any sort of broadband internet access. Of course, thats not to say that it should not be pursued - in my opinion the state must undertake some sort of project to fully upgrade the entire national network, or as close as is economically possible, to fibre so as to futureproof the network itself. This is not a short term solution though, they will have to be in it for the long-haul.

In the meantime, xDSL needs to be rapidly deployed over the existing fibre/copper network so that we do not fall even further behind other countries. There is no point building a network that will be state-of-the-art in 5 years, if no one is going to be around to use it due to a lack of service through the previous 5 years. There has to be an interim solution, to give people the access that is needed until this new network is fully deployed. This is the crucial point that i think the government has totally missed. They believe that it wont matter if we fall well behind for a few years, so long as we catch up sooner or later. This is simply not true. The entire technology sector will die off in this country and it will take many years to bounce back to todays level of prominence, never mind what every other country will experience in growth in the meantime. This will all be due to Irelands present lack of any reasonable broadband internet solution.

Anyhow, end of rant

pete

I'm doing this from memory, so please excuse any errors that might become apparent later....

Originally posted by Moriarty

• They are indeed planning to lay fibre to reach every home in the country.
  
  I have a feeling that this would have a much larger outlay than the costs they have planned, considering the amount of phyiscal plant that would have to be laid for this to occour.

They are - they're talking about laying 50,000km of fibre over the next 3 years. Exchequer funding of €60million between this year and next year for the first 19 towns, with a further €110 million sought in Public Private Partnerships for further phases over 2 or 3 years.(and maybe more but i forget)

[*]They are instead planning to use some form of DSL technology to deliver to the end user, placing nodes that have fibre running to them so that every home will be in range for VDSL, or some other similar service.

The rub with this plan is that many more phone exchanges would have to be built, since higher-speed DSL technologys work over smaller distances than, for instance, ADSL. This would lead to another large outlay of cash, towards the building of these new exchanges.

There was no specific mention of any other technology other than fibre, BUT some of the Phase 1 towns are being used as testbeds for a number of "alternative technologies".

[*]The state rolls out the fibre network to a number of regional nodes and then uses wireless technology to deploy to the end user.

The problem with wireless is that its not a long-term solution which is what this plan needs to be. Wireless is an interim solution as it can offer broadband, but is not able to offer anything comparing to what can be put down a fibre optic cable. Wireless access is also impacted by the local terrain far more, there will always be black spots that will not be able to get service due to being in a valley, etc.

As above. Wireless can be filed under "alternative technologies"

Whichever way this network is deployed (if indeed it ever is.. ) it will mean a large capital expenditure on the part of the state.

See above re: PPP

It will also mean that we will be waiting another 1-5 years for any sort of broadband internet access.

The impression I got was 2/3 years for full nationwide coverage, on a phased basis. Note: Not necessarily "universal access" - nationwide coverage.

Of course, thats not to say that it should not be pursued - in my opinion the state must undertake some sort of project to fully upgrade the entire national network, or as close as is economically possible, to fibre so as to futureproof the network itself. This is not a short term solution though, they will have to be in it for the long-haul.

The thrust of the idea seems to be to utilise the fibre backbone that's already there. I'm not a dentist, but it sure sounded good to me. This will be all over the papers tomorrow, so i'm sure people better qualified than me will have far better analysis of what's going on....

Moriarty

Originally posted by pete
This will be all over the papers tomorrow, so i'm sure people better qualified than me will have far better analysis of what's going on....

Aye, ve vill see

SkepticOne

I welcome these measure particularly if they deal with the 'last mile' issue, although this does not seem to be addressed much in the press reports to-date.

I also agree with Moriarty about the need for interim solutions, not only because of the timescales involved in this sort of project but also to guard against the Govermnet quietly shelving the project at some future date.

pete

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I welcome these measure particularly if they deal with the 'last mile' issue, although this does not seem to be addressed much in the press reports to-date.

Last mile = 5 mbit fibre.

Not saying I believe it, but that's what it says.

Moriarty

Originally posted by pete


Last mile = 5 mbit fibre.

Not saying I believe it, but that's what it says.

5mbit fibre is a bit misleading. Fibre is fibre. They might decide to only allow 5mb traffic over it, they might decide to allow 50mbit, its really only a matter of flicking a switch (i know its not that simple but its relativly so).

pete

Originally posted by Moriarty

5mbit fibre is a bit misleading. Fibre is fibre. They might decide to only allow 5mb traffic over it, they might decide to allow 50mbit, its really only a matter of flicking a switch (i know its not that simple but its relativly so).

Perhaps i wasn't clear - what I saw specifically stated that issue of the last "few kilometers" to consumers homes would be dealt with by way of a 5 mbit fibre connection.

Moriarty

Originally posted by pete


Perhaps i wasn't clear - what I saw specifically stated that issue of the last "few kilometers" to consumers homes would be dealt with by way of a 5 mbit fibre connection.

I know, i wasnt saying your wrong in any way. Its just that ideas change. Some people may get worried that their thinking about 'only' 5mbit, when in fact a lot more is entirely possible either at rollout, or at a later date with minimal fuss..

(edit: typos )

SkepticOne

Originally posted by pete


Last mile = 5 mbit fibre.

Not saying I believe it, but that's what it says.

The reason I'm a bit skeptical is because I've seen the mention of these fibre rings several times before in the press but generally not much about bringing it to the home.

Although the article says:

The goal is to bring a five megabit, always-on fibreoptic connection to every home in the State by 2005.

It is possible that the project being undertaken by the state does not include this aspect but they feel that by providing the regional connectivity, private companies will come in and do this. For example this:

"Regional broadband has become a rallying call," said the Minister for Public Enterprise, Ms O'Rourke, announcing the plan yesterday. She noted that critics had pointed to "a chasm, a deficit" in this area. She said the regions were the focus of the broadband initiative because Dublin was already served by a number of competing broadband networks.

would seem to suggest that the aim of the project is to bring the retional connectivity up to the standard of Dublin where there are several of these fibre rings but where Internet access for most very small businesses and home users is still via the good ol' 56k modem or metered ISDN.

pete

I know that article said "...to every home..." , but IIRC that's not a direct quote from the original source material, if you know what I mean.

(I'm a bit dubious about the "every home" part to be honest. Every home that wants it, perhaps, but surely not *every* home?)

But I'll repeat what I said before - and once again, this is all from memory - but this is not yet another fibre ring announcement. This is specifically about getting broadband into peoples houses, into schools, into colleges & into businesses.

And Dublin is included in the Phase 2 priority list. From memory: Fingal, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown, Dublin City Council etc are all there. As is Cork. This is why i'm dubious about the "every home" part. There's just sooo many people.....

Typedef

Fibre optic cable? Get a grip, ADSL sometime before 2010 to the greater Dublin area maybe, remember governmental types are good at finding deep, deep holes to pour money into.
I mean so what if the government get 20,000 people xDSL access in the stix, I mean I don't mean to be rude but what about the 1.5-1.7 million people living the capital?
Yeah it would look great on paper 15 out of 20 towns with populations > 1500 have xDSL, all we have to do now is bring it to one quater of the state's population, but look we have 15 of 20 towns on yet more fragmented and inaccessable backbone, that counts for the election promise... read the fine print, Dublin phase 2, translation, "We the government will collectively sit on our arses until sometime about a year before the next election when we will make a big media event/show of actually doing something about bringing xDSL to the 1.7 million people living in those other 5 towns".
Gip mir ein break.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Typedef
I mean so what if the government get 20,000 people xDSL access in the stix, I mean I don't mean to be rude but what about the 1.5-1.7 million people living the capital?

And you seriously believe that without something like this, smaller towns would ever get a sniff of broadband internet access? Dublin will sooner or later, more than likely much sooner, due, as you mention, to the population density. Without schemes like this (if it does ever take off..) dublin, and perhaps galway/cork/limerick citys will be the only place in the country that will have it available, but i suppose that dosent bother you, aslong as your selfish needs are looked after..

SkepticOne

http://www.gov.ie/taoiseach/publication/infra/Telecommunications,%20WG%20report%20for%20publication%20final.rtf

From this report on the Dept of Taoiseach's website it looks like the 5mbit/s comes from here:

In the medium-term, we expect that broadband speeds of 5mbit/s and substantially higher for business users will be the minimum standard within 10 - 15 year for broadband. We will aim for Ireland to be the first country in Europe to make this level of broadband service widely available for its people.

I'm not sure what the 10-15 years refers to. It looks like they're making a general statement about broadband speeds. I'm not sure whether these speeds are being set as a specific goal for this project.

The report goes on in some detail about what is to be done at the local level.

47. Therefore provision of a level of basic infrastructure on an open-access, operator neutral basis is needed to overcome the cost barriers to entry and ensure real competition amongst service providers. This level must (as in the current DPE NDP calls), consist of either ducting and dark fibre, or other technology equipment and bases, as appropriate, but will include hubs [footnote: Hubs are managed co-location spaces for the operator equipment which provides the advanced services (DSL, etc.) we wish to make available, interconnection facilities for operators to pass their local traffic onto open access national backbones and links to Eircom exchanges (to which they should be contiguous) to ensure low cost and speedy provision of xDSL). They can be envisaged as the box that connects local fibre to national networks and competing operators' traffic to each other and the world network] and terminators [footnote: ducted fibre is accessed via chambers. To minimise the costs for operators in providing low-cost voice and data services to customers, these chambers should be equipped with equipment to access the fibre. This negates the need for each operator to have its own equipment for this purpose.] (also known as customer drop connections) in all cases and will provide bearer services. [emphasis mine]

So if they are thinking about xDSL with 'hubs' next to Eircom exchanges, it is likely that they will be using LLU to gain access to Eircom's local loops. This is Eircom's nightmare. 'Terminators' here would appear to mean that customers can also connect leased lines or other equipment up to the local network. From the above, it would suggest that the 'local network' itself does not extend to the end-user but will be provided by other means i.e. DSL, Wireless etc. The local network will, however, link eircom exchanges. That's just my reading of it.

On the subject of DSL:

State funding for DSL would only be provided where at a minimum affordable symmetric DSL would be on offer ADSL is not suitable for e-business in that the upstream bit rate is not sufficient to support Internet access to services hosted by a business.

So if a nice company want's to provide ADSL, they ain't going to get no funding.

SkepticOne

I can't get the link above to work, but it's the report called "Cross-Departmental Team on Infrastructure and PPPs - Telecommunications Working Group Report, March 2002" at the top of this page:

http://www.gov.ie/taoiseach/publication/default.htm

jmcc

Originally posted by Coyote

It one or the other either Karlin Lillington has no clue what she is writing or our government prove they know about 0.01% about the state of internet in Ireland when there talking about putting 5mb fibre to peoples house, when DSL would give most people more that enough bandwidth. Even an un-metered ISDN net access would make most people a bit happier.

This time it seems to be from the press release that was being rehashed and it is not Karlin's fault.


Quote from O'Rourke:
"In the medium term we expect that broadband speeds of five megabits to the home and substantially higher for business users will be minimum standard. Our aim is for Ireland to be the first country in Europe to have this level of broadband service widely available."

Regards...jmcc

SkepticOne

Originally posted by jmcc
Quote from O'Rourke:
"In the medium term we expect that broadband speeds of five megabits to the home and substantially higher for business users will be minimum standard. Our aim is for Ireland to be the first country in Europe to have this level of broadband service widely available."

And that quote seems to be taken from the recommendations of the document from the interdepartmental group above.

In the medium-term, we expect that broadband speeds of 5mbit/s and substantially higher for business users will be the minimum standard within 10 - 15 year for broadband. We will aim for Ireland to be the first country in Europe to make this level of broadband service widely available for its people.

Note that the "10 - 15 years" has been left out.

pete

the original also states:

- Phase Two to be completed within three years
- "The first two phases will expand broadband to one million people"
- The expert team to manage the Regional Broadband Strategy is: Chris Horn (Iona Technologies), Kevin Dillon (Microsoft), Martin Murphy (Hewlett Packard), Dr. Alastair Glass (Science Foundation Ireland), Brendan Tuohy (Secretary General, Dept Public Enterprise)

SkepticOne

Thanks pete, but the document seems to be a bit contradictory here. For example, what do they mean by:

State funding for DSL would only be provided where at a minimum affordable symmetric DSL would be on offer ADSL is not suitable for e-business in that the upstream bit rate is not sufficient to support Internet access to services hosted by a business.

On face value, this appears to be very oriented towards e-business, i.e., server hosting. It does not look like a project targetting home users.

What this project looks like to me is rectifying the imbalance between Dublin and smaller towns although it goes a bit beyond this. Nowhere in the document do I see fibre being connected to homes, though with funding to provide SDSL services, companies may wish to increase their return by selling ADSL to home users and small businesses. The big hurdle of getting access to exchanges will have been overcome.

The report goes into some detail as to what is to be provided down to the level of 'hub' but when it comes to last-mile delivery it is a bit vague. At the corporate level, connecting up to a hub through a leased-line would be no problem particularly when there is equipment in the hub to facilitate this.

All this is just my understanding of it. If I'm right, it is still a very important project because it will bring industry and jobs to areas that are suffering through lack of infrastructure.

pete

The document i'm talking about is a press release circulated by Mary O'Rourke's office last Friday evening, which is all about fibre and consumer access.

Its states in it that the fibre project "dovetails with the report of the Infocoms committee*".

So it's not the same thing as the xDSL report, but it's linked.

I almost fell over when i read it to be honest. If even half of it comes off, some people around the country are going to be very, very happy.



* I heard Frobozz were involved with this, and GRUE too.

pork99

Given the calibre of the current incumbents they may think fibre in every home means a box of all-bran in every home

dahamsta

/adam applauds pork99

davros

Originally posted by pork99
Given the calibre of the current incumbents they may think fibre in every home means a box of all-bran in every home

Would that be a cereal connection?

Dustaz

Originally posted by pork99
Given the calibre of the current incumbents they may think fibre in every home means a box of all-bran in every home

Post of the month:)

Stonemason

Nice one 99 puts a whole new complection on a Fibre Ring.You could say that the TD,s are talking out of their fibre rings.:D


Stone:D

Clinical Waste

I think this whole thread is up the 'fibre Ring' (nice one Stonemason) if it truly believes any of this will happen quickly, efficiently or cheaply. It'll be dust after the election.....

Occidental

Maybe our biggest wish for the next six months should be that Fianna Fail might have learn't their lesson and if they are voted back in, they don't let Mary near Telecoms or Transport ever again.

Quorthon

I only read these boards occasionally, and have just read through this thread. The general level of optimism never ceases to amaze me despite this countries particularly poor record when it comes to implementing ANYTHING, let alone 5 mbit connections to each home in the state.

This is just a pre-election promise like any other, the government is going through the list of things they promised at the last election and trying to appear like they have somehow delivered. (witness the miraculous number of new hospital beds, the abortion fiasco etc).

It seems like only yesterday, but is in fact 2 years ago now when Eircon started marketing "hi-speed" and I was slated for getting it at the time, "but NTL will have cable in soon", "dsl is only around the corner", and last but not least "genesis will give you 45 mbit!!!!!!!".

I'm afraid the cynic in me will not allow me to get excited about waffle like this. They would be far better off forcing through some sort of flat rate ISDN product in the short term, than undeliverable promises.

Q

rymus

Originally posted by pork99
Given the calibre of the current incumbents they may think fibre in every home means a box of all-bran in every home

Someone transfer this to the humor board - thats the best one liner I've heard in quite a while...

Whom to I contact to claim my free all-bran?

Dazzaman

Much as I'd love to have broadband sometime before the group Six are back pumping petrol or packing 15c grocery bags, I have to agree with Quorthon on this

*look, Mom, I made my first post here*

SkepticOne

Sunday Business Post: Non-profit network a big waste of money

Sunday Independent: Lurking in the dark with the broadband blues

Bear in mind that neither of these articles may yet understand what is being proposed.

gurramok

i agree every word with you Quorthon !!
Its all promises...empty promises in my humble opinion

I believe the solution to our dilemma will not be an irish solution but will be a european solution via some 2-way affordable and reasonable satellite offer from a european sat company.
The hope is that anyone in a supposedly free market anywhere in europe can offer us that.

May that day arrive sooner than we expect

just my 2 cents

pete

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Sunday Business Post: Non-profit network a big waste of money

From a cursory glance, I don't think he even read the press release....

Sunday Independent: Lurking in the dark with the broadband blues

Bear in mind that neither of these articles may yet understand what is being proposed.

"The Sunday Independent has learnt..."; "...Ireland's hidden broadband network..."

Oh please. These were secrets?

Give me a break.

SkepticOne

A more positive reaction from Karlin Lilington in the Irish Times.

Public private route ideal for broadband expansion - analyst

Mr Mackenzie is completing a report on the western European domestic broadband market, in which he says the Republic ties with Greece for last place. "You have no DSL [digital subscriber line, a high speed broadband technology that uses ordinary phone lines], and almost no broadband cable," he said.

dahamsta

Irish Fitted for Broadband Rings (Lillington, Wired News)

O'Rourke's comments on the second page are interesting:

O'Rourke said the Irish government was not yet sure whether the second and third phases of the build-out would be entirely government-funded or would involve another public/private partnership. "That will depend on how we see the initial 19 towns going. Eventually a pattern will emerge."

I would've thought the whole thing would be planned out to the last cent. Surely the Government hasn't just pulled this out of the hat to placate Irish voters in the run-up to the General Election? Surely not?

And since the Irish government seems to be telling us we're underway, we're up-and-running, we're ready to go, where's this "public/private partnership company"? Shouldn't that have been formed last week, had several meetings, and be negotiating with contractors as we speak?

adam

pete

Originally posted by dahamsta
[BI would've thought the whole thing would be planned out to the last cent. Surely the Government hasn't just pulled this out of the hat to placate Irish voters in the run-up to the General Election? Surely not?[/B]

I'd be more inclined to believe this if a substantial proportion of Irish voters actually knew what broadband was....

dahamsta

I'd be more inclined to believe this if a substantial proportion of Irish voters actually knew what broadband was....

I'd be more inclined to believe it if more than a dozen TD's and civil servants knew what it was...

adam

pete

The full press release has finally appeared on the TEC site:

http://www.irlgov.ie/tec/press02/O’%20Rourke%20Announces%20Technology%20Drive%20To%20Target%2067%20Towns.htm

Manic

The Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O' Rourke TD, today announced a major drive to bring high speed Internet access to 67 towns around the country.

Minister O' Rourke has appointed an expert team to manage the regional broadband strategy. The team comprises: Chris Horn (Iona Technologies), Kevin Dillon (Microsoft), Martin Murphy (Hewlett Packard), Dr Alastair Glass (Science Foundation Ireland) and Brendan Tuohy (Secretary General, DPE).

"We have been working on this project since last year and Government provided the final go-ahead yesterday. This initiative will push Ireland into the top ten of OECD countries for broadband connectivity."

HUH!?

Some names that IOFFL might find usefull perhaps?

Full story here http://www.athlone.ie/broadband/index.htm


If this has already been posted, sorry.

Regards,

Manic

Xian

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/21/fiber-shortage.htm
Dark fiber is not the same as capacity. Even though a fiber is in the ground, it's far from being usable. For every $1 spent to put a fiber in the ground, a company has to spend $20 to attach it to all the equipment, configure it and turn it on.

Has the government got its sums right?

Fallschirmjager

FFS...im in phase ****ING 3, in other words - N E V E R


in the words of the great woman herself

why dont you **** off back over the shannon..


maybe thats how you do it -- Move to Manorhamilton

Fallschirmjager

Ok, i am now offocially announcing that my game pleaying days are reduced to 56k forever...i AM NOW DEPRESSED. I am been forced to get my ass kicked in Half-life (Day of Defeat) forever, BY THE MINISTER!!!

i am delighted for manorhamilton, i drove thru it once. It should take about 20 minutes to get them live with the population-- but calling it a town rather then a village is a bit rich.

19 towns doesnt even constitute a start. it is an election rig.

1 seriously depressed web user.....

Fallschirmjager

Still Manorhamilton, it is nice...i wonder....