Policy of compulsory Irish a spectacular failure for generations

Draco

Policy of compulsory Irish a spectacular failure for generations, book says

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2002/0226/1029144228HMIRISH.html

Copied below for those too lazy to click on the link

Generations of pupils were failed by the education system and sacrificed on the altar of nationalist ideology because of the compulsory Irish policy in schools, a new book has claimed.

The book on compulsory Irish by Dr Adrian Kelly, which draws on recently released State papers, says the education of thousands of students was compromised by the policy, which was supported by all the main political parties and most of the academic establishment.

He says the State's policy from 1922 onwards was to revive the language via the primary schools, but this spectacularly failed and was detrimental to educational standards generally.

Dr Kelly is a graduate of NUI Maynooth and has also studied at the University of Helsinki. He has spent several years on the project.

"The policy increasingly became associated in the public mind with compulsion and examination and resentment built up over the necessity of passing Irish in order to be awarded school Leaving Cert examinations or to qualify for state employment," says the book.

Dr Kelly says the emphasis on Irish led to "intellectual and educational wastage" because it weakened pupils' achievement in other subjects, limited the scope of the curriculum and took the focus away from other areas of the education system.

The book, Compulsory Irish - Language and Education in Ireland 1870s to 1970s, says the policy was mistaken because it failed to interest people in the language.

The books also charts the history of the Language Freedom Movement and other critics who in the mid-1960s challenged the compulsory policy.

"Opposition to the method of revival was neatly equated with opposition to the language, and it was claimed that opposition to the Irish language was opposition to the very idea of the Irish nation," says the book.

"Critics of the methods used to revive the language were labelled anti-Irish, anti-Gaelic and anti-everything else."

He said even writers such as John B. Keane, an Irish speaker who questioned the policy in the 1960s, were described as "west Brits" for their stance.

In the foreword to the book, which is due to be published next month, the general secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, Senator Joe O'Toole, says Dr Kelly is going to need "a suit of mail to prepare for the certain onslaught". "There is no doubt that the publication of this book will bring the zealots out of the woodwork once again," he says.

I always resented the fact that irish was forced down my throat in school, especially since I was extremely bad at it (and not from lack of trying - I just find it hard to pick up languages in general) and have reached the stage I care not a bit about it.

(Mods- I stuck it in here as it seemed the most realivant forum for it.)

WhiteWashMan

i agree, it is a waste of time.
personally i was very good at as i went to an allirish school, and it counts as a langage if you need to go to college with that option, but no-one speaks it. no one uses it. no one needs it.
why waste time teaching something that 99% of pupils dont want adn that will never be used in any way at all?

an It literecy course or somthing would be far more benificial.
get em to learn c++ or something equally boring, but at least career orientated

Xterminator

I agree.

In 5 years of seconday school, i learned more french than my 13 years of being force fed Irish.

This was because of the approach, the methods and the materials used.
When I think of Irish, I remember tables of Verbs, and Peig (may she burn in hell).
Whereas french was largely oral, with emphasis on practical situations, where you might actually use it. eg resturant or trainstation etc.

I remember the French teacher showing us French videos of Les Miserables etc, and trying to bring it to life. I remember the school trip to france acting as a carrot to lear more.
The Irish teachers just plodded along, and by the time visiting the Gealteacht was mentioned, my dislike for the language was already there.
I remember 1 irish teacher from all the years, trying his best. He orgainsed Ceile's etc, but it was mostly too late.

And I resented the extra marks given to the Irish language exam students. I didint have a choice as ther was no 'Irish' school nearby my area, i bet most of the children in all Irish schools wernt given the choice either (just sent by there parents), so why were they rewarded for doing Maths in irish?

X

Draco

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
it counts as a langage if you need to go to college

If I remember rightly to get into college in the first place you must pass math, English and Irish and Trinity counted it as a foreign language for course requirements.

ReefBreak

I can remember spending 6 months learning Peig for leaving cert (Ordinary/Pass/Whatever it's called now Level) Irish. Sat down to do the exam in June... Couldn't understand/translate any of the Peig questions so I had to skip the whole section. I can remember finishing the afternoon paper and thinking "well, thank fúck that's over." And I wasn't just talking about the exam. But it didn't matter anyway. Even with a D in Pass Irish, I still got my 1st choice college place. 14 years years spent "studying" Irish in our education system - it was such an ignominious end. And my point being? Em, none really. Just thught I'd have a rant.

Oh, and I'll bet you're asking, "You've re-discovered the desire to learn, once more, our beautiful native language? Haven't you?"

No.

The Gopher

As Im still in school, I have the misfortune of still studying this bog language.Irish was realised years ago by the Irish themselves as a backward language.It is fairly primitive in many respects.Ive been doing German a few years now and know at least as much,and most likely alot more,German than Irish.I was watching that Pop tv thing on TG4 tonight and I realised id have to think hard about half the stuff being said and asked during phone ins.Virtually nobody in my year save for maybe 10 studendts could have a conversation in Irish.The problem is that the teachers speak nothing but irish in class as if we should already understand it.Our teacher says turn to page caethar cuigear an mile or whatever and 75% of the class is fumbling about trying to find the page.

stereo_steve

I'm in 6th year at the moment and I hate Irish with a passion in school! Its because the course is just so bad! It has to be the subject that I hate the worst.

However I love Irish outside school. I went to the Gaeltacht last summer and enjoyed talking to friends in OUR langauge! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a really big nationalist but I do think that it is important for every Irish citizen to have an understanding of Irish. Its an extremly old language much much older than English. It has been spoken by the Irish for generations! Us speaking Irish is relatively new and only because we were tortured to do so. I admit that English is important in this country to attract foreign businesses but if well could speak both then it would be great.

Caoimhin.old

Curricula in most schools are structured so that MOST classes students take are compulsory. You don't call English compulsory, yet is all the more so than Irish, and in a large part of the world. In the last census about a million people answered they had proficiency in Irish, although one may doubt the accuracy of self reporting. Even if it's a lot less than a million, it's still a sizable minority of the population.
Two of you hit the nail right on the head, on two points: 1)the teaching methods need to be overhauled and brought up to date.
These methods must have as their aim to encourage respect and enthusiasm for the language, two key factors in any language teaching; and 2) the idea that any language is a "bog" language. Any language that is still alive and producing radio tv and literature can evolve to meet current social challenges, if respected and nurtured.

Caoimhin.old

This "bog" notion is not limited to language alone, but shows the self-loathing of a people who in the eyes of the dominant English speaking world are quaint and backward peasants who speak a most peculiar and quaint dialect of English. This is true even of people who are oblivious to the existence of Irish. If you think the English perception of the Irish as backwater peasants, even those who live in Dublin is going to dissappear with the death of the language which you encourage by your loathing of it, you are mistaken. That image will endure at least in the subconscious of British memory perhaps for centuries to come. Wise up, have some self respect for yourselves and for the 20,000 more or less who still use their native language in the Gaeltacht. After all, lately there's more people in the Gaeltacht working in hi-tech than on the land. But if you keep calling them "bog" people long enough, every one of them may turn their back on the language

Xterminator

Caoimhin,

You seem to be missing on of the biggest points here.

Irish is compulsory. Other (foreign) languages are not.

Comparing it to English is not a true comparison, as 98% + of us were born to English speaking parents, and have been studying English not as a foreign language, but as our natural language.

Irish is foreign to most of us, as a language. This is a fact. You may not like it but it is fact.

If Irish were a choice, then students would no longer resent being forced to learn the language.
If addressing the utter failure of the teaching of Irish in our schools, surely this would be ne of the aspects that needs to be reformed.

X

Celt

Originally posted by Caoimhín
Curricula in most schools are structured so that MOST classes students take are compulsory.

mm?Irish/maths/english/irish is hardly most, it's more like 50%.

You don't call English compulsory, yet is all the more so than Irish

What are you on? english is compulsory, just as it's our first language it isnt quite so bad as irish.
Also how can a subject be more compulsory than another?
Compulsory is compulsory.

Any language that is still alive and producing radio tv and literature can evolve to meet current social challenges, if respected and nurtured.

Barely alive. Also the main reason it's still producing is because of government funding, i.e. it's being forced on us like irish at schools is.

And your points about irish people being regarded as quaint bog people is just pure bs.

Caoimhin.old

This wasn't my idea. Read Gopher's message. And you don't think his opinion is widespread?

Celt

Originally posted by Caoimhín
This wasn't my idea. Read Gopher's message. And you don't think his opinion is widespread?

No, I have never heard it referred to as the bog language/people before, either by Irish or foreigners....

Rolo Tomasi

I have the misfortune of still studying this bog language.Irish was realised years ago by the Irish themselves as a backward language - Gopher

Oh dear, where do I start? We realised long ago that this was a backward language. WHAT?- "the Irish"- where the f**k are you from?

A bog language - from my experience in school the only people that regarded Irish as a bog language where students of below average intelligence who struggled to cope with it.

Those who enjoyed Irish regardless of ability recognised that our language is one the main characteristics that defines us a separate and unique race in Europe.

Personally I believe that the language should remain compulsory in school. If nothing else so people have a sense of who we are and where we came and to prevent the rest of the world from regarding Ireland as West Britain

ReefBreak

Rolo, I hope you read the new book to be released next month - "Compulsory Irish" - which apparently addresses the "spectacular failure of compulsory Irish down the ages". I intend to read it, as I find this whole debate very interesting.

I also find it very interesting that the majority of contempt towards Irish always comes from the students currently studying it. Five years later, and everyone seems to turn into a bunch of right-on plebs mouthing off about how Irish gives us "a sense of who we are and where we came and to prevent the rest of the world from regarding Ireland as West Britain." Say that to the student who has to study the damn thing. He/she generally doesn't give a monkey's fart about the cultural value of the language - they just want the grade that'll give them the points they need so they won't have to repeat and do it all over again.

from my experience in school the only people that regarded Irish as a bog language where students of below average intelligence who struggled to cope with it.

Not to put too fine a point on it but: bóllox. I can give you plenty of examples here. The guy who came first in our school during my year (almost all As, including a A in the old Honours Maths course) was in the Pass Irish class - he couldn't give a toss about it. My sister despised studying it, got a C in the Leaving, yet proceeded to come first in her class in University. I got my first choice CAO option, got an honours degree and a postgrad, yet I got a D in Pass Irish - mainly because I gave up giving a shít after the inter-Cert.

And of course there's the ex-pat Irish Times letter-writer who will wax lyrical about keeping Irish compulsory even though he's far removed from having to toil over it on a nightly basis:
Letter in today's Irish Times

Rolo Tomasi

No sorry don't accept that . If this was your experince in school, it points to a failure on the teachers part to instill a sense of pride in the language or at the very least motivate intelligent students to do well in what is a very rewarding subject.

What happens if compulsory Irish is removed from schools?

I would like to see Irish remain compulsory, with the addition of a minimum of 3 weeks spent in a Gaeltacht area each year. No teenager could resist and as a veteran of 2 summers spent in a Gaeltacht, Galway is such a sound county, I believe we would see a renewed interest in the language

ReefBreak

Maybe it had less to do with the teachers and more to do with the syllabus?

I feel that the choice of whether a child should be forced into studying Irish should be with the parents. Some parents see the value of teaching their children Irish, and thats fine. Others would prefer their children to study something more practical, such as science or spanish or some computing skills.

the addition of a minimum of 3 weeks spent in a Gaeltacht area each year

Yeah, right. Every parent in the country can afford to send their kids to the Gaeltacht for 3 weeks every year? I know my parents couldn't - although the thought of having to speak Irish during the summer was enough to dissuade me.

Rolo Tomasi

Anyone who has spent time in the Gaeltacht will tell they had the most amazing time of their lifes. Imagine this your aged between 13-15 and your sent on holidays for 3 weeks, away from your parents for perhaps the first time, for a nominal amount of amount money.

All you have to do speak Irish. Does that sound so bad?


If our history had unfolded differenently we would not be having this discussion. The Irish language survived extinction despite the best efforts of the world's most powerful colonial power. Now we want to make it an option because we see no practical value. The language needs all the help we can give it. Its part of who we are.

ReefBreak

for a nominal amount of amount money

Nominal my arse. It's nominal if your parents can afford it. I never said it was crap, I just said most parents can't afford it.

I absolutely believe I should have a right to decide whether my children (future-tense) should have to study Irish or science or Spanish. I don't like the fact that some jumped-up git from Gael-Linn or Conradh Na Gaeilge or the Dept of Education decides that it's in my kid's best interest to learn the language.

Rolo Tomasi

Its an incentive to learn the language, a goal students can work towards.
Most seconadary schools organise trips to France or Germany or Italy, why not provide the same oppurtunities for students of Irish.

"Some jumped up git" -now come on.

Okay, if/when you have kids do you think you'll advise them to take Irish or actively discourage them?

Draco

Originally posted by Rolo Tomasi
All you have to do speak Irish. Does that sound so bad?

To me it sounded like complete and utter hell on earth. For someone who was extremly bad at irish (barely passed it in the leaving) a couple of weeks where I couldn't speak english would have meant a couple of weeks of barely speaking.

Irish should be compulsory in primary school, possiblely even up to Junior cert. It definity should not be compulsory for the Leaving or for enterance into NUI colleges.

Yoda

I came to Ireland as an adult, 12 years ago, and was not tortured with it as a child. I spoke a number of other languages at the time (Danish, German, Spanish, French, some bad Russian) and I admit I found Irish difficult enough in its structure. On the other hand, I did manage to break through the barrier, am quite fluent, and use Irish every day in one way or another.

I understand that they are teaching Irish better than they used to do, though there still aren't very good grammars available in my view. Apparently it's less torturous than once was, at least in some places.

It's good that Irish is compulsory. Sorry if your teachers were bad, some of you, but it's a great language and life in Ireland is better with it than without.

D-Generate

But Yoda I am guessing that you didn't learn Irish the same way most children are thought it.
In 4 years of German and French I allready understand it alot more than 11 years of force-fed Irish.
I agree that all people should be thought Irish but the way our education system goes about teaching Irish is screwed up.
Showing slides of Maire buying sweets in a shop on a white screen in 3rd Class introduced me to the idea that Irish is boring.
I have never been thought how to use Irish for say ordering in a restaurant but I have been thought how to in German. When in a restaurant the waiter will hardly start talking to me about Eoghinín na nÉan and other such stories
It doesn't help me that I have an eccentric, god-fearing teacher that spends about 2 classes a month talking about how divorce is wrong. This just reinforces the idea that fluent speaking Irish people are backwards.

mike65

If the Irish langauge had a good reason to thrive it would.

Mike.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'd like to see it knocked off for the leaving cert just. Although then you'd have to have the colleges disreguard it. That way you're only missing out on two years of the your much hyped "Identity"

The worst are the ****ing aural tapes -

"ah nuala?? Is ea, nuala anseo, ah roisín conas a tá tú????"

GRRRRRRRRRR

IRISHLILY24

Ok, Please correct me if I am wrong but if an irishman/women
says that learning to speak irish is compulsary, then does'nt that mean that the brits have successfully taken the irish language from the people. I mean, I think it is great for it to be taught in schools, its a way of fighting back, isnt it?
I mean, they have the north and I think if we give up something like the language that was ours before the english tried to illiminate it then we are saying its ok to take our heritage and culture away. Sure the damage is done but the country is trying to get back what is ours. English may be our first language now, but only because more and more people everyday say that its useless to learn it, or no one speaks it. does the term, my vote doesnt count, ring any bells? I guess what I am trying to say is that we need to hold on to what we have left and try to make it strong again.....that's the purpose of teaching it and funding it, wasnt it? I know my children will learn, even if i have to teach them myself...from what I understand its the teaching method that needs working on. A language should'nt have to die because it was destroyed by the enemy, a language should live because the people are proud of who they are. Forgive me if I have offended anyone, its just how I feel.

SantaHoe

Wake up people, it's not the 1800's anymore ... who is this 'enemy' you speak of?
Why put generations of students through years of crap for the sake of some nationalist agenda?

I had Irish forced on me throughout my school days ...
Can I speak a word of it now? - hmm no
Do I care? - hmm no
Do I care what English people might think? - hmm no

The Irish language isn't the be-all end-all of our culture, all this talk of self-hate and patriotism is pretty weak as a supporting argument.
The bottom line is, Irish is a language we don't need for any practical reason, and is only being taught out of spite and wounded pride.
Let's move on...

Slutmonkey57b

If you want students to learn a dead language, teach them a dead language that serves some purpose. Teach them Latin or Greek. Even my Irish teacher in secondary had the good sense to realise that there was no point in forcing the subject down the throats of those who didn't want to learn it. Tell me the number of people you know who speak Irish exclusivly on a day-to-day basis. If you're counting higher than five you're lying. the reason they don't is that nobody else does and nobody else wants to.

I have never referred to Irish as anything other than a bog language, nor have any of my peers, parents or anyone else. There's a reason for this. It's a bog language. The simple lack of advanced structure in the language prevents anything approaching articulacy. Expression is permanantly frozen at a 6 year old's level of vocabulary. This is not the result of British opression. It's a result of the language being a joke.
Vide: when I was being force fed Irish, the Irish for "van" was...? "Veain". "car" was...? "Carr" They later realised this was a joke so they changed it to "gluastain" or "go thing", to translate. Genius.

The British didn't "exterminate" the language, they just refused to bother speaking it as they had a perfectly servicable language of their own, which people wanted to speak as the people speaking it had something important to say, possibly "give us all your money" or "see this? It's sharp." or "have you heard of parliamentary democracy? It's all the rage." The truth is that Irish did not survive. What we speak as Irish is not what our ancestors spoke. It's a bastardisation. Irish speaking was reinstated in the mid1800's as part of the general patriotic revival and the Emancipation movement (one instigated to a large extent by prominant members of the "establishment" in the country, we should note.) It was then forced on the population in the name of nation-building. It's all bull.

As to the idea that the British constantly look down on the Irish, I can only say that I've got a chisel if you need help getting the chip off your shoulder.

Baz_

Originally posted by Slutmonkey57b
<SNIP>

utter bullsh*t

the english we speak today is not the english our ancestors spoke and its a bastardisation, and by ancestors i mean the last generation, all languages are ever changing. Thats the only point Im awake enough to comment on, but the rest of your post was similarly stupid.

Slutmonkey57b

English has Evolved.

There's a difference. One is progress, the other is not.

Slutmonkey57b

The other point I was making is that we are told we are being forced to learn Irish as it is part of our "heritage". As I say, the language today is *not* part of our heritage, it is the result of politics. Celtic or Ogham is part of our heritage. Modern Irish is nothing but gibberish. Childish gibberish at that.