Do you agree with Michael McDowell's recent attack on Sinn Féin?

ReefBreak · 22-02-2002 2:56pm #1

"Any person or party who owes a loyalty to the IRA, to its Army Council, to its 'court martials', to its claimed right to inflict murder and torture as a system of discipline or punishment, or to any putative sovereign authority which is not the Irish State, simply has no business in the Dáil or the Seanad."

Personally, I'm delighted he said it. One could look to North Kerry as an example of the the type of thing he's referring in the Republic.

gandalf · 22-02-2002 2:57pm

For once a member of the PD's says something I agree with.

Gandalf.

ReefBreak · 22-02-2002 3:00pm

It appears FG have a problem with it as they're calling from his resignation from the post of AG - impartiality and all that...

smiles · 22-02-2002 4:13pm

Damn straight. Any organisation that claims the right to murder has no part in a democracy.

<< Fio >>

Boston · 22-02-2002 4:40pm

so what then Fio, ignor the votes of all those who will vote for them, the british tried that and they got blood on the streets, if sinn fein feel that happening then i can see vokience in the south that would make the north look like a walk in the park

Lemming · 22-02-2002 4:51pm

Originally posted by Boston
so what then Fio, ignor the votes of all those who will vote for them, the british tried that and they got blood on the streets, if sinn fein feel that happening then i can see vokience in the south that would make the north look like a walk in the park

Of course Boston. You're right. You're not talking boll*x or anything. Absolutely right. 100% hammer hitting the nail on the top of the head. Christ, that's the best and most accurate and realistic analysis I've ever seen ever anywhere. Even better than that time I stood in front of Martin Luther King and watched his legendary speech even though I wasn't born yet.

Oh .. and I was being sarcastic or anything.

Do you HONESTLY believe that Boston? Do you think that Sinn Fein could convince their membership to turn on the very thing that they've *allegedly* been trying to build (a united Ireland) ??

Typedef · 22-02-2002 4:57pm

Here is a newsflash for some of the more niave people reading this, in some constituancies the PD's are trailing Sinn Fein significantly, believe me if being seen to be friendly with Sinn Fein were found to be politically expiditous for these people you would have the PD's giving "maw maw" kisses on either cheek 'in full public view'.

'Somehow' it is ok for the PD's to associate themselves with the enactment of power sharing governance in Northern Ireland (governance that includes Sinn Fein in case you missed that), but actually do the same for themselves, why of course not, the PD's like everyone else have to be seen to be tough on logic and tough on the causes of logic, or was that tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime?

Ri-ra · 22-02-2002 5:02pm

Every political party has some blood on its hands. Well, maybe except the Greens...

ReefBreak · 22-02-2002 5:05pm

Sinn Fein and the PDs are at complete opposite ends of the political spectrum. I very much doubt that a pro-free-market, pro-business party like the PDs would ever have much to do with a hard-left marxist party like Shinners.

And here's a newsflash for you TypeDef, we're not actually in Northern Ireland down here. Plus, no other political party is responsible for murdering almost 1900 people in 30 years. Just because they have a place in the ruling government (sort of) up north doesn't mean it's alright to do the same down here. Two separate states, two separate governments, one legal constitutional army for each.

Unfortunately, the people that vote Sinn Fein will never see it that way.

MÓC · 22-02-2002 5:12pm

fortunately theres alot more than the people that vote Sinn Fein that will never see it that way

Boston · 22-02-2002 5:17pm

Originally posted by Lemming

Of course Boston. You're right. You're not talking boll*x or anything. Absolutely right. 100% hammer hitting the nail on the top of the head. Christ, that's the best and most accurate and realistic analysis I've ever seen ever anywhere. Even better than that time I stood in front of Martin Luther King and watched his legendary speech even though I wasn't born yet.

Oh .. and I was being sarcastic or anything.

Do you HONESTLY believe that Boston? Do you think that Sinn Fein could convince their membership to turn on the very thing that they've *allegedly* been trying to build (a united Ireland) ??

the type of southern moron that i personal know support them, would.

Boston · 22-02-2002 5:19pm

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Fein and the PDs are at complete opposite ends of the political spectrum. I very much doubt that a pro-free-market, pro-business party like the PDs would ever have much to do with a hard-left marxist party like Shinners.

And here's a newsflash for you TypeDef, we're not actually in Northern Ireland down here. Plus, no other political party is responsible for murdering almost 1900 people in 30 years. Just because they have a place in the ruling government (sort of) up north doesn't mean it's alright to do the same down here. Two separate states, two separate governments, one legal constitutional army for each.

Unfortunately, the people that vote Sinn Fein will never see it that way.

So dont vote for them, they have a right to run for an election just like anybody else. You want to tell people who they can and cant vote for?

Your agruement is flawed, if everyone saw it as you do, then the loyalist would have been right never to go into goverment with sinn fein and the war woudl still be on

ReefBreak · 22-02-2002 5:23pm

I have absolutely have no problem with people voting for them, I never said that I did. Obviously I wouldn't vote for them (unless I wanted to send the country back to the ecoomic dark-ages). But I do have a problem with them being in goverment while they still associate themselves with an armed terrorist organisation.

ReefBreak · 22-02-2002 5:26pm

Your agruement is flawed, if everyone saw it as you do, then the loyalist would have been right never to go into goverment with sinn fein and the war woudl still be on

I don't believe my argument is flawed at all. You're making the same mistake as everyone else that promotes Sinn Fein in government in the Rebublic. We're not Norther Ireland, we weren't killing each other for 30 years, and we don't have to allow the representatives of terror into government just to get them to stop blowing limbs off innocent civilians.

Boston · 22-02-2002 5:34pm

well your conradicting yourself, in one voice yoursaying were not the north so it doesnt effect us, and in the next your saying that because of what happened in the north they should be excluded.

If the loyalist of the north dont have the right to rail road the political process due sienn fiens past then what right do southern politians have to use it.

your arguemnt is ilogical if not flawed at its core
your arguemnet is basically that pre conditions should be places on people entering goverment.

Aspro · 22-02-2002 5:37pm

As I posted in another forum, ReefBreak:

Sinn Fein are not a Marxist party. They are a right wing nationalist and populist party. They like to spout left wing rhetoric to maintain credibility in their working class strongholds in the South.

In government they would end up as little more than a mini-Fianna Fail. Their record in government in the North is already a prelude to this:
Step 1: Give yourself a hefty pay rise
Step 2: Deny term-time schoolworkers pay rise
Step 3: Close hospitals

The only difference with them being in government in the South would be to heighten tensions in the North - making the protestant community feel even more hemmed into a corner.

Unfortunately they are very good at duping people into believing they are a radical alternative to the stale political establishment atm and are set to make big gains in the general election.

Marxism opposes individual terrorism and vigilantism. Sinn Fein are then obviously not Marxists.

Boston · 22-02-2002 5:48pm

actually Aspro is right, they are allmost exactly like FF

hat we need is a capitalised goverment thats semi socialist, liek france

smiles · 22-02-2002 6:28pm

I stand by what I believe in, yes Sinn Fein are growing in popularity... so what? In *my* opinion they still actively support violence, and so I cannot have any support for them. And Aspro is right (have i read that exact same thing from you before by any chance?)

Originally posted by Boston
actually Aspro is right, they are allmost exactly like FF hat we need is a capitalised goverment thats semi socialist, liek france

You mean like a mixed economy... like the one we have now perhaps? We're not completely capitalist, and we do have socialist elements.

What would you like to see? What elements of socialism...?

<< Fio >>

mike65 · 22-02-2002 7:52pm

I agree totally with McDowells remarks I just wish he was'nt AG while making them. Its a role thats meant to be above party political pointscoring.

Its worth noting that while McDowell is a PD he's also a pretty green nationist. A democraticaly minded one. As for Sinn Fein
does anyone imagine that when a SF TD is sworn in to the House
that he/she really swears allegience to the State and its protectors or whatever the form of words is? They'll have thier fingers crossed. I imagine every would be SF TD views the Dial as a tempory arrangement which will be altered just as soon as they have an overall majority(!) ditto the army and police. Their economic policies would have us back in the poorhouse quick enough.

I wont even start on their anti EU, anti NATO anti PFP, anti WTO
anti everything foreign policies.

Mike.

Boston · 22-02-2002 9:21pm

Originally posted by smiles
I stand by what I believe in, yes Sinn Fein are growing in popularity... so what? In *my* opinion they still actively support violence, and so I cannot have any support for them. And Aspro is right (have i read that exact same thing from you before by any chance?)

You mean like a mixed economy... like the one we have now perhaps? We're not completely capitalist, and we do have socialist elements.

What would you like to see? What elements of socialism...?

<< Fio >>

Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income, but you can actually see where its going. More state owned companies, like eircom, but that didnt owrk here because the goverment refuse to let competition in

smiles · 23-02-2002 12:02am

Originally posted by Boston
Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income, but you can actually see where its going.

could you actually see people trying to instate that here? there would be absolute havok.

<< Fio >>

b20uvkft6m5xwg · 23-02-2002 12:16am

Yes, In principle I agree with McDowell's comments.

I frankly think he is just openly stating what the majority of contstituional politicians in this state believe but dont have the balls to say it:)

Typedef · 23-02-2002 12:22am

And here's a newsflash for you TypeDef, we're not actually in Northern Ireland down here.

Ahh yes the ubiquitous, transcendental, omnipotent Northern border can qualify any failure of basic logic, so the PD's in the name of the Irish government and the Irish people can participate in endoctrinating a 'treaty/agreement' between the factions of Northern Ireland, yet cannot seem to equate themselves to the kind of participatory and inclusive governance that they expect from Ian Paisley, David Ervine and David Trimble.

Obviously logic is not one of the PD's strong suits (if it were I'm sure they would not have disagreed with the Nice treaty at European level only to turn around and ask the Irish people to vote for it, and then participate in big brother governance to 'rerun' said referendum). Perhaps being a party of political and socio-political eliteism, socio-political exclusion if you will the PD's have no difficulty misusing state resources like Mary Harney did, but at the same time berate others like Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke and others for their transgressions.

Why don't the PD's campaign on their issues rather than on Sinn Fein's issues? Are the PD's policies and arguments so weak that the only way they can gain politically is to attack their opponents, if so what will be their policy in office if this man is elected, to simply blame the 'opposition' when the government does wrong?
A likely story!

Sand · 23-02-2002 12:25am

Pay 60% tax? Which makes so much sense given our economy has developed in response to tax cuts, surprisingly enough in line with basic economic principles.

Typedef · 23-02-2002 12:31am

Oh and I always have to find amusement with the 'one army' puritanical view that is ususally espoused by right wing politics it has so many self-exclusive conundrums of logic, here is one now.

You David Trimble participate in government now and then 'we' the Irish will get rid of our arms, but the same government reject Sinn Fein because 'the state can only have one army'.
I mean I know our politicians are armchair Republicans, but do they really think the IRA is the only army in Northern Ireland or do the same 'armchair Republicans' just not regard the British army as the legitimate army of Northern Ireland, or is it they just lack the simple intellegence to equate the two situations?

Sand · 23-02-2002 12:33am

Id assume the mention of the North is made because there is a different political "enviroment" in the North. The Government is designed for power sharing. The reason is to build up trust between both communities there. This is not the case in the South. Any party can choose which parties they go into coalition with. Sinn Fein should not figure on anyones list.

A contradiction? Perhaps- If you ignore the fact that such a contradiction would only exsist in an otherwise perfect world. The north is far from perfect. Indeed the fact that the current low intensity violence there is seen as better than what was there previously is a telling point. A similar level of violence would not be acceptable in the South or Britain. Given a unique political climate exsists is it any wonder that a unique arrangement must be made? Ive already made my disgust regarding terrorists clear on other threads, and as far as Im concerned Sinn Fein are just conniving thugs in nice suits - I am however practical and the situation in the north requires a large degree of practicality.

Bard · 23-02-2002 1:08am

must point out the ingenious words of Boston here ... heh...

Originally posted by Boston

the type of southern moron that i personal know support them, would.

THAT's not even a sentence!

Originally posted by Boston

Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income, but you can actually see where its going.

Hahahaha... what a complete and utter load of bollocks. That would NEVER work here!

Originally posted by Boston

More state owned companies, like eircom, but that didnt owrk here because the goverment refuse to let competition in

er... hate to break this to you, but eircom ISN'T state owned...

--

My own personal take on this is that yes, noting that he was careful not to mention Sinn Féin by name, I do agree with McDowell's sentiments. However it may have been fairly in-appropriate for him to make such politically damaging/controversial comments considering the fact that he is the currently serving Attorney General.

ReefBreak · 23-02-2002 1:31am

well your conradicting yourself, in one voice yoursaying were not the north so it doesnt effect us, and in the next your saying that because of what happened in the north they should be excluded.

Boston: personally, I don't think you understand what I was saying - I never said they should be excluded because of what happened in the north - they should be excluded while they associate themselves with a terrorist organisation. Up North, allowing terrorists into government was part of the peace agreement - there was never anywhere in the Belfast Agreement that said the South shouldn't exclude a political party from government if it was associated with terrorists.

your arguemnet is basically that pre conditions should be places on people entering goverment.

Absolutely correct. Again, that little pre-condition about being associated with terrorists.

Bard · 23-02-2002 1:36am

It's only natural that having close association with an ILLEGAL organisation would preclude you from running for government, in my opinion.

Isn't it also a pre-condition of running for government (getting onto the ballot paper in the first place) that you don't have a prior prison sentence?

I could be wrong of course.

(As a case in point, it's naturally hardly worth Liam Lawlor's time running in the upcoming election, but I'm just curious anyway...)

ReefBreak · 23-02-2002 1:54am

You David Trimble participate in government now and then 'we' the Irish will get rid of our arms, but the same government reject Sinn Fein because 'the state can only have one army'.

Yes, that's correct, the state can have only one army. What happens in Northern Ireland regarding peace agreements cannot be compared to what happens in the Republic.

Are the PD's policies and arguments so weak that the only way they can gain politically is to attack their opponents

The PDs policies are pretty straight-forward: low taxation to encourage enterprise, investment and promote job-growth. Sinn Fein's poilicies, meanwhile, are as vague as they come.

Oh and I always have to find amusement with the 'one army' puritanical view that is ususally espoused by right wing politics it has so many self-exclusive conundrums of logic, here is one now.

And I always find amusement (or disgust) at how the left seem to have no problem ignoring (or even excusing) the actions of terrorists (who murder civilians), yet are usually found to be frothing with anger whenever attacks against terrorists - such as Al-Qaeda - are made. But that is, or was, for another flame-filled thread.

Typedef · 23-02-2002 2:07am

Still it is a fallacy of political thought to proport yourself because of how abase your opponent is. The PD's should, if they want to get into government be putting forward their virtues not debasing their opponents, if the PD's must stoop to such kindergarten tactics then perhaps their policies are not all you crack them up to be.
It is a cheap political ploy to attack Sinn Fein, rather then put forward the logic (if any) of thier argument. It looks as if no Southern party is prepaired to get into government with Sinn Fein, but if the PD's want my vote they will have to do better than point scoring off of Sinn Fein.

What's the motto going to be for the PD's
"Sure we defraud the state with inappropiate use of state aircraft, but hey were not as bad as Sinn Fein"? Give me a break, it is easy for the PD's to pontificate about Sinn Fein, but I didn't notice them complaining about getting into government with Fianna Fial who two leaders back ie(C.J. Haughey's era) were supplying arms to the Northern Republicans. Desie O'Malley was in Fianna Fial at that stage and do you mean to tell me that as one of the more senior members of Fianna Fial at that stage he and Mary Harney had no knowledege of the gun running?
Pull the other one pal, this is simply cheap electioneering from a man who should have resigned as Attorney General before politicising the office.

they ran and they swam and they flew and they fought and suddenly... quite recently in fact they all died off

ReefBreak · 23-02-2002 2:21am

What's the motto going to be for the PD's
"Sure we rip defraud the state with inappropiate use of state aircraft, but hey we weren't involved in the troubles up north"? Governmental material there huh?

Jeez Typedef, at least find some criticism that's more substantial than a dead story from a month ago. A free helicopter ride versus a terrorist campaign. Which is worse?

Typedef · 23-02-2002 2:29am

PD Logic: "Im not a 'Terrorist' elect me, rumours of my corruption are months old"

Ri-ra · 23-02-2002 10:24am

I'm holier than the lot of ye in this thread... get to f u c k to one side.

I'm regurgitating what I heard on a D4 tv/ radio programme...

Good to see Irish politics hasn't changed an iota.

Boston · 23-02-2002 11:00am

Originally posted by smiles

could you actually see people trying to instate that here? there would be absolute havok.

<< Fio >>

Why not, i can remember when paye was up around that level

but it would require majopr administration reforms so i wouldnt advise it in the current climate

Boston · 23-02-2002 11:10am

Bard back into your box

Hahahaha... what a complete and utter load of bollocks. That would NEVER work here!

Who said it would, i merely stated id like it if it would more the way it was ment to. but we are nowhere near the level of political accountability that would be required for such a system.

er... hate to break this to you, but eircom ISN'T state owned...

Not what i was saying, i was merely giving eircom as an example of what id have a state owned company

So basically what your saying ReefBreak is you would like sinn fenn to renounce the ira, but how can they do it in the south and not do it in the north? so basically the ira would have no political wing, and it is the political wing that gets the ira to the peace table and keeps them there.

What you asking would be impostible for them to do for at least 10 years imho, without causign a return to the troubles, so therefore is it fair to put that precondition on them?

ReefBreak · 23-02-2002 6:13pm

Desie O'Malley was in Fianna Fial at that stage and do you mean to tell me that as one of the more senior members of Fianna Fial at that stage he and Mary Harney had no knowledege of the gun running?

No offence, em, "pal", but you're really scraping the bottom of the left-wing barrel there with that statement. Was Mary Harney a senior member of FF at the start of the 70s? Is she really THAT old? Dessie O'Malley had to move himself and his family to a new house every two months during the 70s. He also carried a revolver with him at all times in case the Ra tried to murder him. He did this because he took a hard line against terrorists by setting up the Special Criminal Court as Min. for Justice and putting heaps of them behind bars. This is something that the Labour party would never have dreamed of doing in the 70s given their virtual silence condoning of the terrorist campaign during that period.

Anti-corruption and a stronger stand against terrorists were some of the reasons for the founding of the PDs in the first place.

gandalf · 23-02-2002 6:42pm

Man there has been a load of tripe written here since I looked at this thread yesterday.

Point 1.

There is only one Army in the Republic. If you are linked with another organisation claiming to be an Army of Ireland, then you should stand a snowball in hells chance of getting into Government full stop. Any sane minded person would agree with this.

Point 2.

There is an election coming up and yes it will be fought on negative grounds. McDowells comments and Fine Gaels poster campaign already confirm this. Infact expect it to get alot nastier coming closer to whatever date Emperor Bertie sets.

Point 3.

There is a bigger chance of bloodshed on the streets of the Republic if the taxation level is raised to 60% than if Sinn Fein and their little Army council friends see their votes been ignored by the majority down here. People care more about what money they have in their pockets than a united Ireland in my experience. Maybe you should read what you post Boston before you hit the submit button in future.

The basic fact is that down here any party in Government has access to details regarding our Justice and Security services, whereas in the North I don't believe the NA has access to these areas. It is basic common sense that a party who has dubious alligiances not be allowed access to information/knowledge of our Justice or Security collateral. If you disagree with this you had better make it a good argument.

Gandalf.

Boston · 23-02-2002 6:45pm

I know, ive allready said twice that 60% taxation wouldnt work here, for the simple reason it would be squandered for the most part in ineffective in the rest.

You should probably go read the topic before you put your foot in it.

As for the Justice and Security issue's, that shouldnt be a problem, unless they actually get into goverment.

It a rock and a hard place, you refuse to allow sinn fein to stand for election then your going to have alot of pissed of people, and run the risk for being compared to the british ragime in the 70s in the norths, thereby unintentionaly increasing support for "murders" through making sinn fein out to be the innocent little party and those against them as immoral unjust organistation.

The best thing that could happen to sinn fein here is for them to be banned, It worked wonders when they were baned from taking offices in the english parliment. tell people they cant do something, or vote for somebody and they become more determined to do so.

Ps im aware they refused to take their seats anyway.

NeRb666 · 23-02-2002 7:47pm

Zzzzz

Thanks but no thanks, Mr Mc Dowell, I'm more than capable of making up my own mind on this, and most other matters. Get back to your little cloud (aka cuckoo land), and don't worry, you still have the AG job to go back to when you're humiliated in the election.

Typedef · 23-02-2002 8:06pm

Now now, just because he can't think of any scapegoat other than Sinn Fein to make himself seem laudable beside doesn't mean he doesn't have any good policies, it just means he thinks he will have better luck getting votes by denegrating/slurring the competition than espousing himself.
I might agree with aspects of what the man said, here is the but, but it's totally irrelevant to what he should be campaigning on. He should be saying "vote for me because I believe in X and Y and I will do Q and R" rather than saying "vote for me, because my opponents are loosers". No I'm sorry people have to make an argument that at least tries to put forward their ideals before I will vote for said person and really it just shows how little regard the man has for the intellect of the voter that he thinks that simply slurring his candidates will win him votes, you want my vote tell me how your policies will improve my life and the wellbeing of the state, I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind on the merits or otherwise of your opponents thank you very much. All this sort of mud slinging does is help me formulate opinions on you Mr McDowell. Shall I share? Why not?

I think your policies are so elitist and would be so unpopular that instead of actually arguing their merits you would rather get on the TV arguing the flaws in other people's argument. The logic seems to be "I'm the best of a bad bunch". Well sorry Mr McDowell that just doesn't cut it for me. Tell me will the PD's be supporting more disasterous privitisations like that of eircom? Will the PD's be asking Irish people to revote on the Nice treaty, a treaty the PD's opposed at European level? Will the PD's continue to scream murder at politicians in other parties for corruption while tertly and quickly "forgetting" about their own transgressions? Sure market economics are great, but will the PD's be supporting the creation of any more mega monopolies that are not obliged to provide the services their semi-state progenitors were?

Do tell.

gandalf · 23-02-2002 8:27pm

Originally posted by Boston

Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income,

Boston you did post this didn't you and as for reading this topic I did.

With regard to the Security & Justice comments I was merely showing that the "well they are in the North" commentators that they cannot be equally applied down here.

Gandalf.

Boston · 23-02-2002 8:33pm

id prefer it yes, id also prefer two 6 foot, sex maniacs that like to try new things, but somehow I don't think it would work out in the long run

As for " their in the north" they have to be in the north for their to be peace, and they have to be assoiciated in some part with the the ira up there to be me effective in keeping peace.

its the one party so lets not pretend they can do something in the south without effecting how they do things in the north

NeRb666 · 24-02-2002 2:38am

Gene Kerrigan wrote an interesting (and funny) article on Mr Mc Dool (as he is know known) in todays' Sunday Indo

Von · 24-02-2002 9:28am

Originally posted by Boston
Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income, but you can actually see where its going

The top rate of tax in France is 52% so I dunno where you got 60% from.

Boston · 24-02-2002 12:05pm

seem more and more people that are two stupid to read actually what i said,

Victor · 24-02-2002 1:11pm

Originally posted by Bard
Isn't it also a pre-condition of running for government (getting onto the ballot paper in the first place) that you don't have a prior prison sentence?

No, I think only that you are not currently a prisoner, but I'm not even sure about that. Certainly bankrupt people aren't allowed.

Boston · 24-02-2002 1:13pm

as far as i know, if you have the right to vote, you have the right to run for election, since prisoners cant vote, they cant run.

Now there may be something that if your currently under going an investigation then you cant stand, as you may be imprisioned during your term, but dont quote me on that

Victor · 24-02-2002 1:35pm

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Jeez Typedef, at least find some criticism that's more substantial than a dead story from a month ago. A free helicopter ride ...

Nice helicopter

Originally posted by Typedef
... I didn't notice them complaining about getting into government with Fianna Fial who two leaders back ie(C.J. Haughey's era) were supplying arms to the Northern Republicans.

He was not convicted

Originally posted by Typedef
Desie O'Malley was in Fianna Fial at that stage and do you mean to tell me that as one of the more senior members of Fianna Fial at that stage he and Mary Harney had no knowledege of the gun running?

Mary Harney (b. 1953) was 17 at the time (1970). And Dessie O'Malley is no fan of CJH.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
This is something that the Labour party would never have dreamed of doing in the 70s given their virtual silence condoning of the terrorist campaign during that period.

I think this is a grossly unfair comment and probably an outright lie.

Originally posted by Boston
its the one party so lets not pretend they can do something in the south without effecting how they do things in the north

Well, and I try to twist your words here, SF have always insisted that the IRA is a separate organisation, despite Gerry Kelly acknowledging what the dogs in the street know (that SF and the IRA are not independant). SF have gained in local elections and initiated their participation in the peace process and were rewarded. They have gained in Regional Elections (NI Forum and NI Assembly) and cemented their participation in the peace process and were rewarded. Before they enter goverment (bear with me, see below), they need to gain in national elections and abandon violence altogether.

Originally posted by Boston
as far as i know, if you have the right to vote, you have the right to run for election, since prisoners cant vote, they cant run.

Well, there was a challenge before Nice by a prisoner, but he was told "sod off, it's too late, you should have asked earlier". But the judge didn't say that they have no right to vote. It is their right, just not one they can exercise (by virtue of being a prisoner), that the legislation covering special voting classes could have covered them, but doesn't, was the judge point. The constiturion leaves it to legislation.

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND
Article 16
1° Every citizen without distinction of sex who has reached the age of twenty-one years, and who is not placed under disability or incapacity by this Constitution or by law, shall be eligible for membership of Dáil Éireann.

2° i All citizens, and
ii such other persons in the State as may be determined by law,

without distinction of sex who have reached the age of eighteen years who are not disqualified by law and comply with the provisions of the law relating to the election of members of Dáil Éireann, shall have the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann.

Originally posted by Boston
Now there may be something that if your currently under going an investigation then you cant stand, as you may be imprisioned during your term, but dont quote me on that

Never heard of anything like this (or are you trolling?). Innocent until proven guilty? And while I voted yes in the poll, I think that SF do have a general right to run for election, legally. And practically, they must take part in politics (in particular in Stormont) to represent their point of view. Morally there are problems with them having a foot in both camps (democracy and violence), I think is may have been McDowell's point. I don't think he demanded that their seats and votes be taken from them.

Victor · 24-02-2002 3:13pm

Originally posted by gandalf
The basic fact is that down here any party in Government has access to details regarding our Justice and Security services, whereas in the North I don't believe the NA has access to these areas. It is basic common sense that a party who has dubious alligiances not be allowed access to information/knowledge of our Justice or Security collateral. If you disagree with this you had better make it a good argument.

Substantially, security matters still rest with the Secretary of State and his ministers and advisors. The only regional input into security is through the Policing Board, which SF declined to join.

Boston · 24-02-2002 3:22pm

tell me do you fall down alot? i said not to quote me on that.. I heard it somewhere and ive yet to see an exampel of were that is contradicted.

McDowell didnt demand that, because he would look like a fool doing so, im sure he would be happy if it happened though.

the agrument is mute, since sinn fein cannot cut its ties with the ira at this point (and only a fool would see that as a good thing) they cannot be rationaly asked to do so

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