Why am I Irish?

Jaden

I'm Irish. I have a passport in my back pocket to prove it. I was born here, grew up here, and will probably never live anywhere else. I have Irish parents (in fact, Irish ancestors for as long as I can trace), and can do a passable attempt to speak the language. So it's fair to say that I am indeed Irish. Many people here are exactly the same way, so what's my point?

It's this.

I have come to believe of late that the criteria for being Irish is a little too broad. It tends to encapsulate types of people whom I would not consider to be Irish. People who buy their passports are one of these groups. If you have an Irish passport, are you Irish? Yes you are, but are you ethnic Irish? Not necessarily.

However, I can live with people carrying Irish passports who do not profess to be "Irish" in the way I interpret that word. It's certain other groups that offend my sensibilities, so to speak.

Before I continue, I would like to point out that this post is not a rant about Puritanism, nor is it in any way anti immigration. It is a personal viewpoint that concerns itself what I am, and how others feel about their own heritage, which we take for granted far too often.

There are two types of people that fall into some strange dark grey area when it comes to classifying them in terms of their claim to be Irish - Americans of Irish descent, and citizens of Northern Ireland.

I have lost count of the number of times I've been in chat rooms, or bulletin boards (like this one), and someone has asked me what nationality I am. It frequently goes like this:

PersonX: Where are you from?
Me: I'm Irish.
PersonX: Me too!
Me: Really? Where are you from?
PersonX: Atlanta.
Me: Sigh.
PersonX: My Granddaddy was from Kerry, I have relations still there, you might know them.
Me: Weep.

This really gets up my nose. The sad thing is that the person in question probably could get an Irish passport under the granny rule, and certainly wants to be Irish. Coupled with an Irish sounding name, this person firmly believes that they as Irish as I am. Frankly, I find that mildly insulting.

Plastic Paddies are not Irish in my book, but am I wrong to think so? Have I become an Irish snob? The funny bit is that almost a third of all Australians could get an Irish passport but that doesn't seem to bother me as much. I think it's because, in general, Australians think themselves Australian before they concern themselves with their ancestral origins. Americans of Irish descent are very much more in your face about it.

Whatever about Americans, it's the second of there groups that really confuse me, - Those in Northern Ireland. Their claim to be Irish seems to be well founded. They were born on the same Island as me, have a very similar ethnic base, want to be Irish, and could easily get an Irish passport. Our constitution, until recently, even made claim to them being Irish. So why is it that I would never consider a northerner to be Irish, based on these credentials alone?

I'm not sure. Most northerners just don't feel "Irish" to me. They're close, but there is a quality there that separates them from us in my eyes. I can't even put my finger on it exactly, but you see it when you speak with alot of northerners and you explain to them that you do not regard them as your fellow Irish citizens. They generally react quite poorly. But it's the fact that their "Irishness" seems to have been programmed into them. They seem to be so pre-occupied with being known to be Irish, and far less with actually being Irish. The tricolour to them is a statement of religious and political stance, and little else. Anyone who thinks like that can't be Irish.

Irish or not? What is it to be Irish anyway?

neuro-praxis

In my opinion, "being Irish" is of little importance. We only name ourselves, like all other nations, after the piece of tectonic plate we were born on.

Of course, there are distinctive cultural and language differences amongst us, but essentially there is no such thing as "race". That is simply a social myth. We are all one and the same.

Rabbiting on about nationalism, patriotism and national pride in general seems, to me, to have a dangerous slant to it. It helps to build and solidify barriers between us and our neighbours.

For example, your concern with Northern Ireland occupants and Americans. Now, I do understand your irritation with those "Irish Americans", but you must understand that they are simply trying to root themselves somewhere. America is a young place. As for Northerners, you mustn't have many Northern friends. I've worked in a reconciliation centre between Northern and Southern teenagers (of mixed religions) on and off for years, and I have only met three Northerners ever who considered themselves to be Irish. Now - why on earth would you, Jaden, have any say in how a person in the North sees themselves? Why should you comment on how they don't "feel Irish" to you? That is absolute nonsense...they, like you, have the right to choose their political beliefs.

As for your comment of how they see the tricolour - try going off to a small village in the west of Ireland and you'll see how the tricolour is revered there. In Mohill in Leitrim there are sometimes a pair of tricolours up on either side of the altar...

Why are you concerned about the idea of being Irish getting too broad? Do you think we're going to get "diluted" or something?

Your whole post (though you deny it) sounds like an attempt at intellectualising a fear that we are getting overrun with "them dangerous foreign wans with funny coloured skins."

Victor

Originally posted by Jaden
Irish or not? What is it to be Irish anyway?

I don't have the answer straight off and I do know where you are coming from. There seems to be an in-built denial of being Irish or accepting your Irishness and only that makes you Irish ......?!?!?!?

Excelsior

I have an irish passport but I am going to marry a Danish girl and swap sides.

neuro-praxis

/me weeps silently in the corner

Jaden

In my opinion, "being Irish" is of little importance. We only name ourselves, like all other nations, after the piece of tectonic plate we were born on.

A valid opinion, but not one I share completely. I think where you come from, and the people who share that same place of origin, help form the definition of who you are.

We are all one and the same.

Not quite. We are indeed, all human, and in this regard you are fully correct. But the definition of a person has more layers then just a generic "They are human". As long as we remember that this is the most important aspect of who we are, then there is no danger.

After all, everyone is unique. (I'm special, My Mammy said so)

As for Northerners, you mustn't have many Northern friends.

I lived in the Cookstown/Dungannon area on and off for two years. I have many friends there. Living in Bunbeg in Donegal, meant befriending alot of weekenders from Derry, some of whom I am still in regular contact with. Part of my post is an offshoot of a conversation I had with a friend of mine from Derry last Saturday.

why on earth would you, Jaden, have any say in how a person in the North sees themselves?

I don't. I just have opinions. Part of the purpose of my post was to get an idea as to the opinion of others on this matter.

As for your comment of how they see the tricolour - try going off to a small village in the west of Ireland and you'll see how the tricolour is revered there.

I live in a small village in the west of Ireland, and yes the tricolour is revered here. But then again it is the national flag, hence the difference with flying the flag in the republic, and doing it in the north.

Why are you concerned about the idea of being Irish getting too broad? Do you think we're going to get "diluted" or something?

New York was named after a town in the north of England, and was initially inhabited solely by English settlers. Now it is the most ethnically diverse city on Earth. The label "New Yorker" has undergone an enormous transformation, in a relatively short period of time.

I was curious about other peoples definitions of being "Irish". What it is to be Irish is never a static object, or written in stone. It will continue to evolve, just as it always has. That does not worry me in the least. I was just wondering about where it is now, and where people think it's going, nothing sinister as you imply.

BTW, "Dilute" is not a great choice of word there.

Your whole post (though you deny it) sounds like an attempt at intellectualising a fear that we are getting overrun with "them dangerous foreign wans with funny coloured skins."

Crude, rude, and very, very wrong.

Doc

I am Irish and am currently living in England.

I think that the Irish culture and way of life is very different from most other cultures, we are unique as a race, even the other Celtic nations though similar are not quite the same.

This I believe is why we had little problem joining the Euro, we did not need too keep the punt in order to keep this uniqueness we keep it in our music our sense of humour our accents and all the other things that make us Irish.
In this way we are different from England who I believe only stayed out of the Euro because they have so little sense of what it means to them to be English that they fear that their way of life is threatened by being considered European.

It is my opinion that being Irish can be defined differently by every person who considers themselves Irish.
I am never bothered by anyone saying they are Irish even if they clam it because their great grandparents came over from Ireland during the famine.
Like neuro-praxis said they are simply trying to root themselves somewhere and I am proud that they should chose my culture.


Doc.



___________________

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

Victor

Originally posted by Clain
Thirdly, Americans always describe themselves in terms of their enthicity just to make themselves interesting.....

Even to the point of being offensive to others?

So my grandfather was an alcoholic. Doesn't mean I tell all and sundry about my origins (oh, I just have).

smiles

Does being Irish or claiming to be Irish actually matter ?

Being Irish myself I find it rather funny and a little bit flattering that several million American refer to themselves as Irish, for a little country we aint doin' so bad

<< Fio >>

flyz

Originally posted by smiles
Does being Irish or claiming to be Irish actually matter ?

Being Irish myself I find it rather funny and a little bit flattering that several million American refer to themselves as Irish, for a little country we aint doin' so bad

<< Fio >>

I have no problem when Americans say that they are of Irish Origion. But there is a difference of that and them saying that they are as much Irish as we are.
I lived with an American for a few months during college and his great grandmother was Irish, and cos of this he believed that he was pure bred irish as a result. That as far as I think was taking the biscuit a bit. As for his attempts at learning to play the bodhrán I'm not gonna go into
It was also his reckoning that there are no real (native)Americians, that all americians are of dfferent origin. That I can agree with to an extent but I thought Americians would be proud to call themselves Americians and not try to be something else.

Personally anyway I think we're Irish not just because of where our ancestors are from but because Ireland is where we were born and grew up.

Keeks

Those in Northern Ireland. Their claim to be Irish seems to be well founded. They were born on the same Island as me, have a very similar ethnic base, want to be Irish, and could easily get an Irish passport. Our constitution, until recently, even made claim to them being Irish. So why is it that I would never consider a northerner to be Irish, based on these credentials alone?

To the best of my knowledge they can still claim to be irish under the constitution. The changes made to the cinstitution under the Good Friday agreement only took away them claim that Ireland was the 32 counties and now recognises a second jurisdiction on the island.


As for the topic of being Irish I share you pain Jarden. Having spent time working in the States I regulary had the sam converstation that you outlined above. What really got to me was the fact that most of them have never even being to Ireland. Sad fact. They seem to latch on to out 'free spirit' attiude.

That to me is what being 'Irish' is. Being Free. We work hard. We play hard. But at the end of the day (to quote dave o'leary) we don't give a f*ck about anything.

Let me expalin that a little better. When we're working, we're passionate and dedicated to getting the job done and done right. but once we leave the office/workplace we couldn't give a flying f*ck if it all burnt down. We can switch off and relax.

I think you see it more in sport. Irish sports ppl seem to wear there heart on there sleave, give it a 110% and then some. But win lose or draw, once they tried they know they succeded.

Keeks

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Of course, there are distinctive cultural and language differences amongst us, but essentially there is no such thing as "race". That is simply a social myth. We are all one and the same.

Unfortunatly i have to disagree with you here. There is such a thing as race. Let me try and explain with this example.

There are different "races' of ppl or differetn 'species' of humans. It's not just a social myth. Otherwise (and heres the example) a border collie wouln't be able to call itself a border collie because it is afterall just a dog. See what i'm gettin at.

Don't really want to discuss this here as it is off topic.

Oh well!

Shinji

Once you live abroad a bit the concept of being "Irish" tends to start to mean more; partially as a source of pride and of identity, but mostly because you start to see ways in which we do things differently.

It's not accents or speech patterns, it's attitudes and an outlook on life that makes someone Irish. Of course there are negatives as well, but you tend not to think of those as much

7Day Theory

I see nothing positive about or society, i hate this place and once im qualified, i will be glad to up and leave.
this is one depressing country if you can see the bigger picture.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Excelsior
I have an irish passport but I am going to marry a Danish girl and swap sides.

Danish? I thought you were going to marry a Swedish girl?

mike65

I'm not Irish, can I contribute to this thread or should I buy a passport first?

Mike.

Lennoxschips

I see nothing positive about or society, i hate this place and once im qualified, i will be glad to up and leave.
this is one depressing country if you can see the bigger picture.

I have lived in four countries on two continents, and if one thing is true, it is that all people and all countries are the same once you scratch below the surface.

WhiteWashMan

ben, where do i sit?
im irish. i consider myself to be irish. i can speak irish. i went to an all irish school. i lived in ireland for 20 years.
but...
i was born in australia and lived there until 7.
i didnt get an irish passport until i was 22.
i have no irish ancestors. in fact, my mothers australian of welsh decent, and my father was english.
and i live in england as of 6 months ago.

so, am i justified in calling myself irish?
i have the passport, ihave history in ireland, albeit only 20 years.
i understand irish culture and have emersed myself in it.

so is my irishness as laughable as say, an american who actually has some irish blood in them?
or can i be considered irish because ive taken part in irish life for the majority of my life, embraced irish traditions (and a few irish gurls as well). in fact, the more i talk over here, the more irish i seem to sound. its only when you go away you realise that you do actually sound like youre from father ted.
no disrespect, but its true. ive found that i do actually swear in true irish stereotypical fashion. and as embaressing as it is, im also quiet proud of the fact. and i tend to have a rpetty non descript accent in ireland, or a southside twang at best.

i feel irish.
and thats good enough for me.

except when it comes to rugby or cricket. then im australian

Lennoxschips

I was born in Ireland to Irish parents and hold an Irish passport, but you have lived in Ireland 4 times longer than me.

Who's more Irish? I'd be f*cked if I know, who cares!

neuro-praxis

Keeks, hate to tell you, but according to both genetic and anthropological studies, we are, in fact, not different breeds of the same species of animal, but all the one breed of the one species. The differences are purely aesthetic and it is estimated that there is one tenth of a percentage difference between cultures, afaik.

Jaden, I think "dilute" was a perfectly fine word, but semantics aside, I didnt intend to be rude.

Hobbes

Originally posted by JustHalf
Danish? I thought you were going to marry a Swedish girl?

her grandmother was Danish. :rolleyes:

I want to be a tomato.

Jaden

This is a first, a Humanities thread getting to a second page, without insults flying about. What next, CS players with manners?

WWM is Irish, or at least would be if he didn't play Q2. (Grounds for instant revocation of an Irish passport).

Now if Eamo is, then it's fair to say that most plastic paddies have a case for being Irish. Pah.

My thinking on this (after some trolling about on sci.culture.irish) is that in places like the states, calling yourself Irish, has a very different meaning to doing so here. If I regard Irish-Americans this way, it eases the pain somewhat.

I have come to the comnclusion that we should leave the term "Irish" as broad as possible, otherwise our national football team would be ****ing useless.

As a follow on, I would like to point out that a qualification system now exists for Irish soccer supporters. It is the same system used for players.

In order to support Ireland in this years world cup, and subsequent tournaments, you must:

a. Have an Irish grandparent.

b. Own, or know some who owns, a red setter. (Mongrels with red setter in them are acceptable).

Provided:

1. You are pissed as a fart for the game.

2. You do not believe that everyone in Ireland lives in a village like the one in "The Quiet Man".

The Sweeper

mmmmm - Jaden, I think the problem with 'Irishness' is that there's a romanticism that's been fostered by the media and was born originally out of the famine-era emigration of millions.

People of Irish descent, but not of direct Irish nationality, tend to describe themselves as 'Irish' because of the positive tags that go with it - friendly, creative, charming, mystical, (as opposed to the negative tags of alcoholic, trouble making, red haired, brawl starting, freckled explosives experts) and the satisfying sense of righteous injustice that goes hand in hand with being Irish because of colonisation, the famine again, etc etc.

You know, if it lights their bulbs, then maybe leave them to it. Up to now the Irish, for all the negative stereotypes listed above, have pretty good PR worldwide - you see that if you travel about a bit and watch people's reactions when they ask you 'You English?' and you say 'No, Irish'.

What bothers me is the Irish nationals that have moved abroad and spend all of their time whinging about how fab the 'aul sod' was. I spent too long in London drinking in bars where Irish men who've not been in Ireland for 15 years wanted to know if I was a nurse and sang along to Christy Moore's "Ooooo I'm, MIIISSSSSING you, I'd giveitall, for the price... of a flight..."

Yeah yeah, well stop pissing your wages against a wall and Ryan Air will get you back for under fifty quid...

][cEMAN**

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border? ~Pablo Casals

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. ~George Santayana

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbours. ~William R. Inge

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. ~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934

I have no sense of nationalism, only a cosmic consciousness of belonging to the human family. ~Rosika Schwimmer

If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident. ~Montesquieu

I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world. ~Socrates

neuro-praxis

Bravo!

Medogsbstfrnd

First off, I appreciate the candor and courage of Jaden to even raise the questions he raised with regard to national identity. And next, I think []ceman's litany of universal citizenship in the human family was well-done. I'm glad I got to overhear this thread as I've spent the last week asking what it means to be Irish--except I am an American who is asking and I'm not asking because I'm Irish-American. I am interested in your country, its history, its literature and religion and I just made the effort to spend four days in your country. That is a very brief visit and earns me no right to say anything. I enjoyed my time in Dublin (with a day at Bray) and found people to be kind and generous. I'm truly amazed at how many young people are teeming in your capital city and wonder what it is they live toward and what animates them, not only as human beings but particularly as Irish men and women.

Gooey sentiment aside, I think Jaden is on point to assert something for his particularity and it seems to me, he values his birthright. I'm not sure one can feel a kinship with the rest of the world if he cannot own his own citizenship in his native land.

At Shannon Airport during a lay-over on my way back to the States, I picked up Seamus Heaney's Oxford lectures on poetry entitled, The Redress of Poetry. In the last chapter, "Frontiers of Writing," Heaney wrestles with his Irish identity (he was born in Northern Ireland, a Catholic). If you have access to it I think you'd find it interesting. He writes:
As Professor Roy Foster writes in his introduction to his recent book of essays on the ways that British and Irish history have intersected: 'We need not give up our own claims on Irishness in order to conceive of it as a flexible definition. And in an age of exclusivist jihads to east and west, the notion that people can reconcile more than one cultural identity may have much to recommend it.'"

I think I hear Foster's words in some of the comments in this thread. Your identity is a Celtic knot. You are twined around and through by various races and histories. That is not unlike my own wrestling match with American identity. I will say this: this thread reveals that Irish identity is often expressed as what it is NOT to be Irish. Okay. That is a basic of cultural anthropology. But I would find it interesting to hear Irish identity expressed not by who you are not but by who you ARE. It's a difference worth the telling I am sure.

Victor

Something came to me on a completely unrelated item the other day and I think it applies here.

While nationalties by definition are different and indeed one can say they are not equal, that is not to say they (collectively) are not balanced.

chernobyl

Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
I dont care to elabourate anymore on this, as im sure anyone here who is from ireland can concur with me.

Victor

Originally posted by chernobyl
Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
I dont care to elabourate anymore on this, as im sure anyone here who is from ireland can concur with me.

But nowhere else is better. Different, but not necessarily better.

chernobyl

But Victor we have nothing here, just about anything i want is not available, or im shafted to get it.
my gripes with ireland is it lack of materialistic pleasures.

oh yes, and i hate every politician, and the one who lives next door to me will loose his life if he brings that fricken helicopter around at 7am again!!

Victor

OK, you will realise that the position here isn't all that bad been you see Germans literally hugging trees (in public).

Excelsior

I think Denmark is better Victor. Now all I have to do is find a girl from Copenhagen to marry. That way I can finally get citizenship.

Washout

Well My parents are from India but I was born and raised here....

I have never ever really considered myself to be Irish. My race is Indian and thats what I am.

But then recently I have been thinking race has nothing to do with ones nationality.

Maybe there is a distinction between both.

maybe americans are completely wrong for claiming to be irish when there isnt a race that is Irish?

I dont know confusion has set in

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd
First off, I appreciate the candor and courage of Jaden to even raise the questions he raised with regard to national identity.

actually, im more surprised. i expect there was a lot of alcahol abuse immediately prior to this posting...

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd
And next, I think []ceman's litany of universal citizenship in the human family was well-done.

indeed. heart rending stuff alright.

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd
I'm glad I got to overhear this thread as I've spent the last week asking what it means to be Irish--except I am an American who is asking and I'm not asking because I'm Irish-American. I am interested in your country, its history, its literature and religion and I just made the effort to spend four days in your country. That is a very brief visit and earns me no right to say anything. I enjoyed my time in Dublin (with a day at Bray) and found people to be kind and generous. I'm truly amazed at how many young people are teeming in your capital city and wonder what it is they live toward and what animates them, not only as human beings but particularly as Irish men and women.

you can spend a hundred years trying to get to know what makes the irish tick, and still be surprised when you think you know it all. but i would say that about any nation, any majority, any minority, any mob, bunch, or gang of people. at the end of the day, people have the free will to do things. and they usually will.
by the way, most of the young people in dublin are probably foreign. as for they live for. who knows. what do you live for?
what does anyone live for?
to be happy?
to be loved?
to live a good life?
as a nation, irish are no different than english, americans, germans, japanese, australians. just a collection of people with funny accents and different viewpionts.

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd

Gooey sentiment aside, I think Jaden is on point to assert something for his particularity and it seems to me, he values his birthright. I'm not sure one can feel a kinship with the rest of the world if he cannot own his own citizenship in his native land.

one shoudl be proud of where one comes from.
surely you should not be embaressed to stand up and say 'i am irish'. being from a nation doesnt nesseceraily give you the stereotypical characteristics which are bestowed upon that grouping of people. i think youve missed bens point here. hes not saying hes not proud and he doesnt feel irish, i think its aimed more towards the type of people who 'aspire' if you will to be irish through some rediculous proxy. a very good example would be irish americans.
if you have read any of your 'irish -american' literature in the states you would soon realise that the view points of these people are far removed from the viewpoints of the irish popualtion.
recently irish americans were appalled that there brethren back hom ein ireland didnt supports the bombings of afgahnistan etc. they felt betrayed. there were rumblings of 'ohhh, my granddaddy sent money back to the family in ireland and a hundred years later theyve turned on us. you dont see people in ireland giving money to fund terrorist groups up north. you do in america, and its well documented.
irish americans are also incredibly patronising to the point of being offensive. you wonder why so many dislike them. just ask about.
every day we get gangs of americans who claim their great grand pappys came from cork. id like to know why there is any one still left in cork. i suspect close to 20 million people left cork one day to sail to boston. and i think 40 million must have arrived. gee, cool, that doesnt that we are forever in someones debt for leaving the country or that we should share their interests.
this is the type of 'irishness' that i think jaden, and a lot of people have a problem with.

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd
At Shannon Airport during a lay-over on my way back to the States, I picked up Seamus Heaney's Oxford lectures on poetry entitled, The Redress of Poetry. In the last chapter, "Frontiers of Writing," Heaney wrestles with his Irish identity (he was born in Northern Ireland, a Catholic). If you have access to it I think you'd find it interesting. He writes:
As Professor Roy Foster writes in his introduction to his recent book of essays on the ways that British and Irish history have intersected: 'We need not give up our own claims on Irishness in order to conceive of it as a flexible definition. And in an age of exclusivist jihads to east and west, the notion that people can reconcile more than one cultural identity may have much to recommend it.'"

hehe.
unfortunately the irish mentality isnt as flighty as the american.
its something that the americans are put down for time and again, but i thihnk its nice. we dont tend to have long philisophical discussions, or quote poetry, or enter into long theological debates. no really we dont.
the americans do tend to be a bit more 'literate' and like all that kind of stuff. i'll call it being a more rounded person.
irelands people are driven by something entirely. a more landed people should i say.
by the way, its a lovely thought, but the truth is alot more complex.

Originally posted by Medogsbstfrnd


I think I hear Foster's words in some of the comments in this thread. Your identity is a Celtic knot. You are twined around and through by various races and histories. That is not unlike my own wrestling match with American identity. I will say this: this thread reveals that Irish identity is often expressed as what it is NOT to be Irish. Okay. That is a basic of cultural anthropology. But I would find it interesting to hear Irish identity expressed not by who you are not but by who you ARE. It's a difference worth the telling I am sure.

often i wonder if finding your identity has a place in irelands culture.
the culture has always been we are irish.
this country has been occupied for 750 years.
some of it still is

you will find that countries that have been oppressed have a populus that are very nationalistc and proud and very sarcastic.
we already know where we came from.
we know we are irish.
on the other hand. the americans have never been oppressed. they have never had fear. they dont know their boundries like other nations. they have always been an aggressive dominant country. and it deosnt tend to leave you a lot of time to think about your identity...

Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?

becuase you are young and you hve yet to learn what pride is.

Slydice

Right, here we go :

1. Bleh.

2. I consider myself Irish, can't say why I just do, it's a feeling that because I was born here and have been in Ireland for the 19 years of my life minus maybe a total of 3 months max for foreign holidays.I have bit of the language, played the irish games, participated in irish culture etc...

3. I consider people from Scotland as being Scottish, Wales -> Welch, England -> English etc... Northern Ireland -> Northern Irish.

4. Tottally wrecking the last part of 3, I consider the Northern Irish to be Irish as they were born/live in/ are from the Island of Ireland.

5. Whats the difference between Americans with Roots from Ireland and Native Americans in comparison to Americans with Roots from Ireland and People who were Born and Live in Ireland.

6. Bleh, (must stop reading humanities stuph)

bonkey

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
becuase you are young and you hve yet to learn what pride is.

Bravo - best comment I've seen here in ages.


Personally, I dont know what it "takes" to be Irish. I dont think there are any hard and definite rules, so I'm going to look at it from s slightly perspective.

I was in the bar the other night, overhearing a conversation, where someone was saying that they were half-Irish. This always cracks me up.

This person is not claiming to be of Irish descent, but rather that they are half-Irish. How can you be half-Irish? So I asked him, and apparently his grandmother was Irish.

He was a big guy, so I didnt correct his maths

Anyway, we talked a bit more, and I was eventually telling him how Ireland seems to be one of those few countries that so many people want to be associated with for some reason.
Hence "half-irish", rather than "partly of Irish descent".

I mean, your mother was female, and your father male. Does this make you half-male, and half-female? I think not. Same for religion. I dont know anyone who claims to be half-catholic, and only ever heard one person claim to be half-jewish.

You cant be half-Irish. WWM, by my reckoning, is "adopted Irish" and natively Australian. As for supporting Australia in rugby - we have to allow that - half the Irish seem to support foreign soccer teams

So, when someone claims to be Irish, they should (hopefully) be talking about their contry of origin, or what they consider to be their cultural home. For clarity - by cultural home I mean the land where they have lived long enough to consider that culture their own. Culture,m of course, being more than language and music.

If they mean that their parents came from that country, but they themselves have done little more than see it on a map and visited for a holiday once, then they are talking through their proverbials. As for those who purchase passports - they are not Irish in anything but the legal sense of the word, until they make it their cultural home as well.

jc

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by chernobyl
Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
I dont care to elabourate anymore on this, as im sure anyone here who is from ireland can concur with me.

I'm from Ireland I don't concur. Bóllox.

my gripes with ireland is it lack of materialistic pleasures.

This is sort of what I like about Ireland... why don't you bugger off to America if you want "materialistic" pleasures.
What age are you?

mike65

This thread can be boiled down to the following-

Is being Irish (or whatever) informed by where you were born or where you are in your head. If its the former you're on solid ground if its the latter you're a romantic fool! (or a Yank!).

I'd prefere not to be so classified in the first place, after all
no-one picked thier birth place and those who whitter on about feeling Irish or anything, having been bought up in a different country and culture have plainly just have got swept away by a passing fancy, which will pass once the weather turns and
someone cuts you dead in a check out queue/pub/bus/name your own location.

Mike.

Hannah

am i irish?,
i was born in england to english parents and lived there til i was 10, when we moved to ireland where i lived til i was 19, i am currently attending college in wales. 3 of my 4 grandparents are irish and the other is welsh. i speak workable irish, i attended school in ireland for 9 years, i currently hold an english passport, but i am also entitled to an irish passport.
over here in wales i am regarded as irish, at home in ireland i am, if anything, regarded as english....
so what's the verdict?
i'm not all that bothered either way, it is all a part of who i am and putting a label on it won't, as far as i can see, change that, for better or for worse.
it's quite weird, when you're in a situation like mine you can't win, but then you can't lose either.....

also for further discussion on the topic you might want to look at last years leaving cert (hons) paper as the theme of that was very much along the same vein as this topic. (much to my dismay!)

deco

People, people...we can go on all day about the legal requirements that are needed to be offically recognised as an Irish citizen.

Just because your a citizen of a country dosen't make you that natioality. A nation is a collection of people sharing the same culture. Ergo you belong to the country whose culture you share. Now culture can be defined as the set of common characteristics that people share eg. music, language, customs and as such can unite people in a country who come from different cultures eg USA.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by deco
People, people...we can go on all day about the legal requirements that are needed to be offically recognised as an Irish citizen.
.

who said anything about legal?
i think the main idea running though the thread is what makes a person a perticular nationality, not what passport they hold.

Chowmein

Ok i am a holder of an Irish passport, i have lived here for all my life. But I am born of an Irish mother and English Father. Another thing that some people seem to think I need to have is to speak Irish, which i can not, due to a learning disability/diffaculty called Dislexiea. So dose haveing a learning disability/diffaculty disalow me from being Irish? If so then Ireland is not realy a place i would want to be apart of, because any Goverment or Country that says i am not irish is as good as the Nazi goverment that murderd Jewish people, any one with a Birth defect or learning disability/diffaculty.

I have NEVER considerd my self to be any thing but Irish, every one of my family considers me to be Irish, both English and Irish sides.

Lennoxschips

You cant be half-Irish

Why can't somebody can't be half Irish? I know somebody who has one Dutch parent and one Irish parent, I'm not going to deny them the right to call themselves half Irish!

Makaveli

Being able to speak Irish has nothing to do with being Irish imo. A fair few of my friends cant speak a word of it, like they failed pass in the leaving cert. These are people born and bred in Ireland, both parents Irish, the whole 9 yards, they are Irish.
For these Irish/Americans it would appear that being Irish for them is like a fashion statement or a trend, in reality it doesnt mean jack **** to them, if it really did they would follow up on their so called claim by studying Irish culture and at least coming here.
Although when it comes to studying Irish culture I can pretty much say I've only really learned about Irish culture through school...
So I dunno, but to be honest if I was to move to America today and live there the rest of my life I wouldnt be American, I would still be Irish.
This is all too philosophical for me, I'm gonna shut up now

amp

I've a friendly, relaxed attitude towards life, I drink too much and have a fondness for potato based foodstuffs.

QED

Victor

A friend was born in San Francisco, to an Irish father and a Greek mother, he spent 7 years in SF and then moved to Brussels, spent a few years and then came to Dublin. He considers himself an "Irish-American" and takes both countries with a grain of salt.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by amp
I've a friendly, relaxed attitude towards life, I drink too much and have a fondness for potato based foodstuffs.

QED

I reckon that sums it up really...

My aunt was born in Ireland but has spent most of her life in The States, I think she knows more about Irish culture than anyone else in the family! It's an American thing, most Americans who claim to be Irish in some way know a hell of alot more about our culture than I do...

Who really gives a fúck?
I've a Scottish mother and an Irish father... when I feel like it I'm half Scots - half Irish..... other times I'm Irish!

Trev M

jaaayyysssuuuuuusss!!

Finally got through that mass thread...some really great posts there it has to be said.

I myself am 100% Irish, to the point of rediculousness sometimes...for example I've always owned a flag, its in my car....just in case there's an outburst of mass public patriotism or something I dunno.

Being Irish for me is a mixed bag of emotions and thinking about our country, particularly when away kinda makes me sad.....we're kinda sad in a way really....always seem to have the tough draw, the shortest straw and always the underdog that has to graft for everything, we like feeling sorry for ourselves it would appear.

Then sometimes Im fierce proud of the place, our fantastic heritage, the fact that we are so different despite all the history of repression that hangs around our necks like the proverbial albatross....I think this has a huge bearing on our Identity perhaps it shouldn't be but at the same time we can't make it go away.

I also feel ashamed too....some people here sound like being Irish is like being part of some exclusive club, chopping and disecting people into catagories... its feckin wierd if ya ask me...of course no one did but its lunchtime and Im bored so

Today's Ireland has a lot to be frowned upon, I can't believe how racist a lot of people are, I feel utterly helpless when you see the way some people are treated in Dublin...particularly by the civil service (little dig there).
Our politicians are an absolute mess, the scams and payoffs, the tribunals, the greed its never ending.
We've also become greedy feckers too, I live in Dublin and have felt the place change dramatically over the last 10 years. Dublin is so Cosmo or something, full of yuppie wannabe ejits....



I know this post might read a little disjointed but Im going back and forth here so sorry .....

Anyway, bear in mind when you go on about Americans that half the teenagers in ireland are trying to be yanks for some reason we could be accused of trying to highjack parts of their identity as much as they are ours...just a thought

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Trev M


I myself am 100% Irish, to the point of rediculousness sometimes...for example I've always owned a flag, its in my car....just in case there's an outburst of mass public patriotism or something I dunno.

roflmao!!!!

Originally posted by Trev M
Being Irish for me is a mixed bag of emotions and thinking about our country, particularly when away kinda makes me sad.....we're kinda sad in a way really....always seem to have the tough draw, the shortest straw and always the underdog that has to graft for everything, we like feeling sorry for ourselves it would appear.

it comes from being a repressed nation for so long. im sure you will ifnd a lot of countries are like that a lot of nationalities share similar viewpoints

Originally posted by Trev M

Then sometimes Im fierce proud of the place, our fantastic heritage, the fact that we are so different despite all the history of repression that hangs around our necks like the proverbial albatross....I think this has a huge bearing on our Identity perhaps it shouldn't be but at the same time we can't make it go away.

of course it shoud. its what make the irish irish.
if you changed the history of the country, wed be english, or german, or japanese or alien or something

Originally posted by Trev M


Today's Ireland has a lot to be frowned upon, I can't believe how racist a lot of people are, I feel utterly helpless when you see the way some people are treated in Dublin...particularly by the civil service (little dig there).
Our politicians are an absolute mess, the scams and payoffs, the tribunals, the greed its never ending.
We've also become greedy feckers too, I live in Dublin and have felt the place change dramatically over the last 10 years. Dublin is so Cosmo or something, full of yuppie wannabe ejits....

difference is that people here dont claim ti be half american. and its a big difference...
careful what you say about yuppies

Trev M

Hey WWM,
Cheers for your thoughts on my post, I didn't really think it out but for the most part I think I explained a little about how I see myself as an irish lad and am not sure if you were laughing at that, or the fact that you found my little jest about a public outburst funny>

Either way I would just like to clarify that Yuppies really irritate me ....

so do all those kids with their fake american accents.


I've already said to much...

Later - T :rolleyes:

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Trev M

Either way I would just like to clarify that Yuppies really irritate me ....
:

th yuppies......
you know, that could have been me, but i think it describes amp much better...