Why am I Irish?

Jaden

I'm Irish. I have a passport in my back pocket to prove it. I was born here, grew up here, and will probably never live anywhere else. I have Irish parents (in fact, Irish ancestors for as long as I can trace), and can do a passable attempt to speak the language. So it's fair to say that I am indeed Irish. Many people here are exactly the same way, so what's my point?

It's this.

I have come to believe of late that the criteria for being Irish is a little too broad. It tends to encapsulate types of people whom I would not consider to be Irish. People who buy their passports are one of these groups. If you have an Irish passport, are you Irish? Yes you are, but are you ethnic Irish? Not necessarily.

However, I can live with people carrying Irish passports who do not profess to be "Irish" in the way I interpret that word. It's certain other groups that offend my sensibilities, so to speak.

Before I continue, I would like to point out that this post is not a rant about Puritanism, nor is it in any way anti immigration. It is a personal viewpoint that concerns itself what I am, and how others feel about their own heritage, which we take for granted far too often.

There are two types of people that fall into some strange dark grey area when it comes to classifying them in terms of their claim to be Irish - Americans of Irish descent, and citizens of Northern Ireland.

I have lost count of the number of times I've been in chat rooms, or bulletin boards (like this one), and someone has asked me what nationality I am. It frequently goes like this:

PersonX: Where are you from?
Me: I'm Irish.
PersonX: Me too!
Me: Really? Where are you from?
PersonX: Atlanta.
Me: Sigh.
PersonX: My Granddaddy was from Kerry, I have relations still there, you might know them.
Me: Weep.

This really gets up my nose. The sad thing is that the person in question probably could get an Irish passport under the granny rule, and certainly wants to be Irish. Coupled with an Irish sounding name, this person firmly believes that they as Irish as I am. Frankly, I find that mildly insulting.

Plastic Paddies are not Irish in my book, but am I wrong to think so? Have I become an Irish snob? The funny bit is that almost a third of all Australians could get an Irish passport but that doesn't seem to bother me as much. I think it's because, in general, Australians think themselves Australian before they concern themselves with their ancestral origins. Americans of Irish descent are very much more in your face about it.

Whatever about Americans, it's the second of there groups that really confuse me, - Those in Northern Ireland. Their claim to be Irish seems to be well founded. They were born on the same Island as me, have a very similar ethnic base, want to be Irish, and could easily get an Irish passport. Our constitution, until recently, even made claim to them being Irish. So why is it that I would never consider a northerner to be Irish, based on these credentials alone?

I'm not sure. Most northerners just don't feel "Irish" to me. They're close, but there is a quality there that separates them from us in my eyes. I can't even put my finger on it exactly, but you see it when you speak with alot of northerners and you explain to them that you do not regard them as your fellow Irish citizens. They generally react quite poorly. But it's the fact that their "Irishness" seems to have been programmed into them. They seem to be so pre-occupied with being known to be Irish, and far less with actually being Irish. The tricolour to them is a statement of religious and political stance, and little else. Anyone who thinks like that can't be Irish.

Irish or not? What is it to be Irish anyway?

neuro-praxis

In my opinion, "being Irish" is of little importance. We only name ourselves, like all other nations, after the piece of tectonic plate we were born on.

Of course, there are distinctive cultural and language differences amongst us, but essentially there is no such thing as "race". That is simply a social myth. We are all one and the same.

Rabbiting on about nationalism, patriotism and national pride in general seems, to me, to have a dangerous slant to it. It helps to build and solidify barriers between us and our neighbours.

For example, your concern with Northern Ireland occupants and Americans. Now, I do understand your irritation with those "Irish Americans", but you must understand that they are simply trying to root themselves somewhere. America is a young place. As for Northerners, you mustn't have many Northern friends. I've worked in a reconciliation centre between Northern and Southern teenagers (of mixed religions) on and off for years, and I have only met three Northerners ever who considered themselves to be Irish. Now - why on earth would you, Jaden, have any say in how a person in the North sees themselves? Why should you comment on how they don't "feel Irish" to you? That is absolute nonsense...they, like you, have the right to choose their political beliefs.

As for your comment of how they see the tricolour - try going off to a small village in the west of Ireland and you'll see how the tricolour is revered there. In Mohill in Leitrim there are sometimes a pair of tricolours up on either side of the altar...

Why are you concerned about the idea of being Irish getting too broad? Do you think we're going to get "diluted" or something?

Your whole post (though you deny it) sounds like an attempt at intellectualising a fear that we are getting overrun with "them dangerous foreign wans with funny coloured skins."

Victor

Originally posted by Jaden
Irish or not? What is it to be Irish anyway?

I don't have the answer straight off and I do know where you are coming from. There seems to be an in-built denial of being Irish or accepting your Irishness and only that makes you Irish ......?!?!?!?

Excelsior

I have an irish passport but I am going to marry a Danish girl and swap sides.

neuro-praxis

/me weeps silently in the corner

Jaden

In my opinion, "being Irish" is of little importance. We only name ourselves, like all other nations, after the piece of tectonic plate we were born on.

A valid opinion, but not one I share completely. I think where you come from, and the people who share that same place of origin, help form the definition of who you are.

We are all one and the same.

Not quite. We are indeed, all human, and in this regard you are fully correct. But the definition of a person has more layers then just a generic "They are human". As long as we remember that this is the most important aspect of who we are, then there is no danger.

After all, everyone is unique. (I'm special, My Mammy said so)

As for Northerners, you mustn't have many Northern friends.

I lived in the Cookstown/Dungannon area on and off for two years. I have many friends there. Living in Bunbeg in Donegal, meant befriending alot of weekenders from Derry, some of whom I am still in regular contact with. Part of my post is an offshoot of a conversation I had with a friend of mine from Derry last Saturday.

why on earth would you, Jaden, have any say in how a person in the North sees themselves?

I don't. I just have opinions. Part of the purpose of my post was to get an idea as to the opinion of others on this matter.

As for your comment of how they see the tricolour - try going off to a small village in the west of Ireland and you'll see how the tricolour is revered there.

I live in a small village in the west of Ireland, and yes the tricolour is revered here. But then again it is the national flag, hence the difference with flying the flag in the republic, and doing it in the north.

Why are you concerned about the idea of being Irish getting too broad? Do you think we're going to get "diluted" or something?

New York was named after a town in the north of England, and was initially inhabited solely by English settlers. Now it is the most ethnically diverse city on Earth. The label "New Yorker" has undergone an enormous transformation, in a relatively short period of time.

I was curious about other peoples definitions of being "Irish". What it is to be Irish is never a static object, or written in stone. It will continue to evolve, just as it always has. That does not worry me in the least. I was just wondering about where it is now, and where people think it's going, nothing sinister as you imply.

BTW, "Dilute" is not a great choice of word there.

Your whole post (though you deny it) sounds like an attempt at intellectualising a fear that we are getting overrun with "them dangerous foreign wans with funny coloured skins."

Crude, rude, and very, very wrong.

Doc

I am Irish and am currently living in England.

I think that the Irish culture and way of life is very different from most other cultures, we are unique as a race, even the other Celtic nations though similar are not quite the same.

This I believe is why we had little problem joining the Euro, we did not need too keep the punt in order to keep this uniqueness we keep it in our music our sense of humour our accents and all the other things that make us Irish.
In this way we are different from England who I believe only stayed out of the Euro because they have so little sense of what it means to them to be English that they fear that their way of life is threatened by being considered European.

It is my opinion that being Irish can be defined differently by every person who considers themselves Irish.
I am never bothered by anyone saying they are Irish even if they clam it because their great grandparents came over from Ireland during the famine.
Like neuro-praxis said they are simply trying to root themselves somewhere and I am proud that they should chose my culture.


Doc.



___________________

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

Victor

Originally posted by Clain
Thirdly, Americans always describe themselves in terms of their enthicity just to make themselves interesting.....

Even to the point of being offensive to others?

So my grandfather was an alcoholic. Doesn't mean I tell all and sundry about my origins (oh, I just have).

smiles

Does being Irish or claiming to be Irish actually matter ?

Being Irish myself I find it rather funny and a little bit flattering that several million American refer to themselves as Irish, for a little country we aint doin' so bad

<< Fio >>

flyz

Originally posted by smiles
Does being Irish or claiming to be Irish actually matter ?

Being Irish myself I find it rather funny and a little bit flattering that several million American refer to themselves as Irish, for a little country we aint doin' so bad

<< Fio >>

I have no problem when Americans say that they are of Irish Origion. But there is a difference of that and them saying that they are as much Irish as we are.
I lived with an American for a few months during college and his great grandmother was Irish, and cos of this he believed that he was pure bred irish as a result. That as far as I think was taking the biscuit a bit. As for his attempts at learning to play the bodhrán I'm not gonna go into
It was also his reckoning that there are no real (native)Americians, that all americians are of dfferent origin. That I can agree with to an extent but I thought Americians would be proud to call themselves Americians and not try to be something else.

Personally anyway I think we're Irish not just because of where our ancestors are from but because Ireland is where we were born and grew up.

Keeks

Those in Northern Ireland. Their claim to be Irish seems to be well founded. They were born on the same Island as me, have a very similar ethnic base, want to be Irish, and could easily get an Irish passport. Our constitution, until recently, even made claim to them being Irish. So why is it that I would never consider a northerner to be Irish, based on these credentials alone?

To the best of my knowledge they can still claim to be irish under the constitution. The changes made to the cinstitution under the Good Friday agreement only took away them claim that Ireland was the 32 counties and now recognises a second jurisdiction on the island.


As for the topic of being Irish I share you pain Jarden. Having spent time working in the States I regulary had the sam converstation that you outlined above. What really got to me was the fact that most of them have never even being to Ireland. Sad fact. They seem to latch on to out 'free spirit' attiude.

That to me is what being 'Irish' is. Being Free. We work hard. We play hard. But at the end of the day (to quote dave o'leary) we don't give a f*ck about anything.

Let me expalin that a little better. When we're working, we're passionate and dedicated to getting the job done and done right. but once we leave the office/workplace we couldn't give a flying f*ck if it all burnt down. We can switch off and relax.

I think you see it more in sport. Irish sports ppl seem to wear there heart on there sleave, give it a 110% and then some. But win lose or draw, once they tried they know they succeded.

Keeks

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Of course, there are distinctive cultural and language differences amongst us, but essentially there is no such thing as "race". That is simply a social myth. We are all one and the same.

Unfortunatly i have to disagree with you here. There is such a thing as race. Let me try and explain with this example.

There are different "races' of ppl or differetn 'species' of humans. It's not just a social myth. Otherwise (and heres the example) a border collie wouln't be able to call itself a border collie because it is afterall just a dog. See what i'm gettin at.

Don't really want to discuss this here as it is off topic.

Oh well!

Shinji

Once you live abroad a bit the concept of being "Irish" tends to start to mean more; partially as a source of pride and of identity, but mostly because you start to see ways in which we do things differently.

It's not accents or speech patterns, it's attitudes and an outlook on life that makes someone Irish. Of course there are negatives as well, but you tend not to think of those as much

7Day Theory

I see nothing positive about or society, i hate this place and once im qualified, i will be glad to up and leave.
this is one depressing country if you can see the bigger picture.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Excelsior
I have an irish passport but I am going to marry a Danish girl and swap sides.

Danish? I thought you were going to marry a Swedish girl?

mike65

I'm not Irish, can I contribute to this thread or should I buy a passport first?

Mike.

Lennoxschips

I see nothing positive about or society, i hate this place and once im qualified, i will be glad to up and leave.
this is one depressing country if you can see the bigger picture.

I have lived in four countries on two continents, and if one thing is true, it is that all people and all countries are the same once you scratch below the surface.

WhiteWashMan

ben, where do i sit?
im irish. i consider myself to be irish. i can speak irish. i went to an all irish school. i lived in ireland for 20 years.
but...
i was born in australia and lived there until 7.
i didnt get an irish passport until i was 22.
i have no irish ancestors. in fact, my mothers australian of welsh decent, and my father was english.
and i live in england as of 6 months ago.

so, am i justified in calling myself irish?
i have the passport, ihave history in ireland, albeit only 20 years.
i understand irish culture and have emersed myself in it.

so is my irishness as laughable as say, an american who actually has some irish blood in them?
or can i be considered irish because ive taken part in irish life for the majority of my life, embraced irish traditions (and a few irish gurls as well). in fact, the more i talk over here, the more irish i seem to sound. its only when you go away you realise that you do actually sound like youre from father ted.
no disrespect, but its true. ive found that i do actually swear in true irish stereotypical fashion. and as embaressing as it is, im also quiet proud of the fact. and i tend to have a rpetty non descript accent in ireland, or a southside twang at best.

i feel irish.
and thats good enough for me.

except when it comes to rugby or cricket. then im australian

Lennoxschips

I was born in Ireland to Irish parents and hold an Irish passport, but you have lived in Ireland 4 times longer than me.

Who's more Irish? I'd be f*cked if I know, who cares!

neuro-praxis

Keeks, hate to tell you, but according to both genetic and anthropological studies, we are, in fact, not different breeds of the same species of animal, but all the one breed of the one species. The differences are purely aesthetic and it is estimated that there is one tenth of a percentage difference between cultures, afaik.

Jaden, I think "dilute" was a perfectly fine word, but semantics aside, I didnt intend to be rude.

Hobbes

Originally posted by JustHalf
Danish? I thought you were going to marry a Swedish girl?

her grandmother was Danish. :rolleyes:

I want to be a tomato.

Jaden

This is a first, a Humanities thread getting to a second page, without insults flying about. What next, CS players with manners?

WWM is Irish, or at least would be if he didn't play Q2. (Grounds for instant revocation of an Irish passport).

Now if Eamo is, then it's fair to say that most plastic paddies have a case for being Irish. Pah.

My thinking on this (after some trolling about on sci.culture.irish) is that in places like the states, calling yourself Irish, has a very different meaning to doing so here. If I regard Irish-Americans this way, it eases the pain somewhat.

I have come to the comnclusion that we should leave the term "Irish" as broad as possible, otherwise our national football team would be ****ing useless.

As a follow on, I would like to point out that a qualification system now exists for Irish soccer supporters. It is the same system used for players.

In order to support Ireland in this years world cup, and subsequent tournaments, you must:

a. Have an Irish grandparent.

b. Own, or know some who owns, a red setter. (Mongrels with red setter in them are acceptable).

Provided:

1. You are pissed as a fart for the game.

2. You do not believe that everyone in Ireland lives in a village like the one in "The Quiet Man".

The Sweeper

mmmmm - Jaden, I think the problem with 'Irishness' is that there's a romanticism that's been fostered by the media and was born originally out of the famine-era emigration of millions.

People of Irish descent, but not of direct Irish nationality, tend to describe themselves as 'Irish' because of the positive tags that go with it - friendly, creative, charming, mystical, (as opposed to the negative tags of alcoholic, trouble making, red haired, brawl starting, freckled explosives experts) and the satisfying sense of righteous injustice that goes hand in hand with being Irish because of colonisation, the famine again, etc etc.

You know, if it lights their bulbs, then maybe leave them to it. Up to now the Irish, for all the negative stereotypes listed above, have pretty good PR worldwide - you see that if you travel about a bit and watch people's reactions when they ask you 'You English?' and you say 'No, Irish'.

What bothers me is the Irish nationals that have moved abroad and spend all of their time whinging about how fab the 'aul sod' was. I spent too long in London drinking in bars where Irish men who've not been in Ireland for 15 years wanted to know if I was a nurse and sang along to Christy Moore's "Ooooo I'm, MIIISSSSSING you, I'd giveitall, for the price... of a flight..."

Yeah yeah, well stop pissing your wages against a wall and Ryan Air will get you back for under fifty quid...

][cEMAN**

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border? ~Pablo Casals

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. ~George Santayana

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbours. ~William R. Inge

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. ~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934

I have no sense of nationalism, only a cosmic consciousness of belonging to the human family. ~Rosika Schwimmer

If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident. ~Montesquieu

I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world. ~Socrates

neuro-praxis

Bravo!

Medogsbstfrnd

First off, I appreciate the candor and courage of Jaden to even raise the questions he raised with regard to national identity. And next, I think []ceman's litany of universal citizenship in the human family was well-done. I'm glad I got to overhear this thread as I've spent the last week asking what it means to be Irish--except I am an American who is asking and I'm not asking because I'm Irish-American. I am interested in your country, its history, its literature and religion and I just made the effort to spend four days in your country. That is a very brief visit and earns me no right to say anything. I enjoyed my time in Dublin (with a day at Bray) and found people to be kind and generous. I'm truly amazed at how many young people are teeming in your capital city and wonder what it is they live toward and what animates them, not only as human beings but particularly as Irish men and women.

Gooey sentiment aside, I think Jaden is on point to assert something for his particularity and it seems to me, he values his birthright. I'm not sure one can feel a kinship with the rest of the world if he cannot own his own citizenship in his native land.

At Shannon Airport during a lay-over on my way back to the States, I picked up Seamus Heaney's Oxford lectures on poetry entitled, The Redress of Poetry. In the last chapter, "Frontiers of Writing," Heaney wrestles with his Irish identity (he was born in Northern Ireland, a Catholic). If you have access to it I think you'd find it interesting. He writes:
As Professor Roy Foster writes in his introduction to his recent book of essays on the ways that British and Irish history have intersected: 'We need not give up our own claims on Irishness in order to conceive of it as a flexible definition. And in an age of exclusivist jihads to east and west, the notion that people can reconcile more than one cultural identity may have much to recommend it.'"

I think I hear Foster's words in some of the comments in this thread. Your identity is a Celtic knot. You are twined around and through by various races and histories. That is not unlike my own wrestling match with American identity. I will say this: this thread reveals that Irish identity is often expressed as what it is NOT to be Irish. Okay. That is a basic of cultural anthropology. But I would find it interesting to hear Irish identity expressed not by who you are not but by who you ARE. It's a difference worth the telling I am sure.

Victor

Something came to me on a completely unrelated item the other day and I think it applies here.

While nationalties by definition are different and indeed one can say they are not equal, that is not to say they (collectively) are not balanced.

chernobyl

Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
I dont care to elabourate anymore on this, as im sure anyone here who is from ireland can concur with me.

Victor

Originally posted by chernobyl
Ireland is a $hithole, why would anyone be proud to be from here?
I dont care to elabourate anymore on this, as im sure anyone here who is from ireland can concur with me.

But nowhere else is better. Different, but not necessarily better.

chernobyl

But Victor we have nothing here, just about anything i want is not available, or im shafted to get it.
my gripes with ireland is it lack of materialistic pleasures.

oh yes, and i hate every politician, and the one who lives next door to me will loose his life if he brings that fricken helicopter around at 7am again!!

Victor

OK, you will realise that the position here isn't all that bad been you see Germans literally hugging trees (in public).