Spaeka da English

Yo Mamma

Now before I start I just want to say that im not raceist in any way and this is not meant to be a dig at any of the people living in Ireland at the moment !! I do however feel that when McDonalds and Burger King (and the others) hire their staff there should be at least bare essentials in speaking the English language known, especially when dealing with the public !!!

So.........I decided to pop into Burger King on my way home from work, hoping for a Quarter pounder to hold me off until I got home. I go upto the counter, glanced at the menu, and prepared my speech patterns for the basest of English communications.

Counter attnd: "Welcome to Bargher Keeng, mhay I tagghe yo ordar?"
Me: "Yeah, can I get a Quarter pounder with cheese, and an orange juice?"
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda wid bacon an chis, and won oran juice?"
Me: "No. No bacon. Quarter pounder with cheese." ( I dont even think a Quarter pounder with bacon and cheese exists at BK !!!)
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda wid bacon an chis."
Me: "...NO bacon. WITH CHEESE."
Counter attnd: (surprised) "No bacon?"
Me: "No bacon. With cheese."
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda no bacon wid cheese an won oran juice. wait one moment please."
I'm hesitant to leave it at that, but he confirmed that last bit so I figure I'm good to go. so I hand over the cash, he repeats my order, and hands it to me. I am satisfied, but not very trusting. As I make to leave, I reach into the bag and grab the "burger". I peel open the wrapper and to my utter shock I exclaim "THOSE FCUKERS!" There, in my hand, Quarter pounder, no cheese.
I threw the Quarter pounder into the bag and walked back to the counter. I handed the bag to the guy who took my order and gave me the food.

Me: "I ordered a Quarter pounder. WITH CHEESE!"
Counter attnd: (incredulous, as if I'd asked him if I could urinate on his mother) "NO CHEESE?!?"
Me: "NO. WITH CHEESE."
He looks at me like I'm crazy. He takes the bag from me and throws it in the trash. He then turns to the lady preparing the food (I won't say cook, because she really just assembles pieces of food like a child assembles a leggo house) and says "Quarda pounda no with cheese." Again, my distrust takes hold of me, so I watch as she prepares the food.
She puts on the beef, sauce, and no cheese.

I immediately point out her obvious mistake to the Counter attendant, who turns back to the preparer. And I sh1t you not, this is their conversation:

Counter attnd: "No, no! No Quarda pounda no wid cheese !"
Preparer: (incredulous, "NO CHEESE?!?!?"

I put my head in my hands, and watched as she slowly, after a nod of assent from the attendant, put cheese on. She went through each step like she was walking through a minefield in combat boots. Finally I received my part of this complete Quarter pounder, and the attendant looked at me like a circus sideshow. Frankly, I didn't know whether to hate the two of them or be thankful I even got what I did.

:rolleyes:

TwoShedsJackson

Wow - the feeling of superiority as a pure bred English speaker must be giving you a real high right now.

Stop posting $hite like this in this forum.

TwoShedsJackson

In response to certain private messages, emails, and an apparent general desire to discuss this subject, this thread is now open once again.

bonkey

Thanks Castor

While I think Yo Mamma is being unnecessarily harsh on his server, the language berrier *is* a huge problem. Are BK (and others) hiring these people because they will work for "bottom dollar", or are they hiring these people because in our (up until recently) burgeoning economy a lot of people wouldnt even consdier these jobs.

I recall hearing and reading more and more over the past few years about how the "menial labour" jobs were increasingly going to foreigners (summer students and immigrants mostly) purely because there was no-one else available.

Ultimately, I think its a tough nut to crack.

We, as customers and consumers, demand good service - after all, its part of what we're paying for allegedly. Communication issues cause poor service. Now, ok, perhaps we should be more tolerant, but realisically, we are an english speaking nation, with no immediate non-english-speaking neighbours. It is not unreasonable to expect english to be a requirement for a job.

At the same time, many of us argue that of course immigrants should be welcomed into the country. Errr - few if any of these come from English-speaking countries, and yet we never seem to discuss how to help these people integrate.

Sure - let them in, but after that what do we ant to do with them?Most immigration proponents want to give them equal rights with the rest of us - allow them to live, work, and play here in the same manner as everyone else. But, lacking english, these can never have equal rights. And if we start discriminating against them in the workplace because of their lack of english (which I believe is fair, to be honest), then they can never earn enough to afford to go and learn english to get a better job! Should we not help them learn, or perhaps even require that they learn english?

Concerning the specific problems which Yo Mamma had, it has struck me that somewhere like a fastfood chain is where some of the most complex nuances of english get used.

For example, just reading through his "verbatim" account, I can see where a ntaive english speaker could get confused, as the interpretation of what he is saying is purely denoted by the position of hte comma :

- No, bacon with cheese
- No bacon, with cheese

While the first is slightly grammatically incorrect, I have still heard its like used quite often. Also, compare :

- No with cheese
- No. With Cheese.

Given that No and Not are often confused by foreigners learning english I can honestly say that I can see where genuine confusion can occur.

At the end of the day, there is a problem with the language barrier, which is becoming more and more prevalent as many of the jobs which our newly-arrived neighbours end up in are as waiters and fast-food servers...where english skills are a must, but where the english used is often clipped and abbreviated making their life tougher.

The solution? Use full sentences. Always. You may sound a bit patronising to a native english speaker, but trust me, the person you are talking to who isnt a native speaker will appreciate it, and you'll have less trouble.

jc

The_Scary_Man

I'm sorry but the original post belongs in the humour board, and before anyone jumps on my back tell me you didn't find Fawlty Towers funny


Meester Fawlty Meester Fawlty!

Aaaahhh the memories.

linkin

I just read the post and i don't understand why Kastor closed the topic in the first place.

Castor could you please explain.

- Shane

Baz_

hmmm Where to start...

First off yomamma, your disclaimer at the start of the post is totally and absolutely contradicted by what follows it, this story could have been told in a completely different manner, and you know it. Second if you are the only fluent speaker in the exchange it is my opinion that you should be fully able and willing to ask a question in a simpler manner, once you've established that the original one has been misunderstood. Since coming to Germany I have learned that there is at least three ways to say the same thing, at least three, so next time you are misunderstood, take a deep breath think out what you want to say and say it very simply, not how you think it is simple, but how you know it is simple.

Originally posted by bonkey
While I think Yo Mamma is being unnecessarily harsh on his server, the language berrier *is* a huge problem. Are BK (and others) hiring these people because they will work for "bottom dollar", or are they hiring these people because in our (up until recently) burgeoning economy a lot of people wouldnt even consdier these jobs.

I recall hearing and reading more and more over the past few years about how the "menial labour" jobs were increasingly going to foreigners (summer students and immigrants mostly) purely because there was no-one else available.

Ultimately, I think its a tough nut to crack.

We, as customers and consumers, demand good service - after all, its part of what we're paying for allegedly. Communication issues cause poor service. Now, ok, perhaps we should be more tolerant, but realisically, we are an english speaking nation, with no immediate non-english-speaking neighbours. It is not unreasonable to expect english to be a requirement for a job.

Oh come on. The level of English people have for this job is perfectly good enough, sometimes they get the order wrong, so what I have often been given the wrong burger by an Irish server. The fact of the matter is that when they get it wrong, they know how to fix it. Thats all their job entails, take an order, tell food maker, serve order, if order wrong, fix order. Now granted if he didn't have enough English to carry this set of instructions out then he should not have the job but he does, so end of complaint.

Originally posted by bonkey
At the same time, many of us argue that of course immigrants should be welcomed into the country. Errr - few if any of these come from English-speaking countries, and yet we never seem to discuss how to help these people integrate.

Sure - let them in, but after that what do we ant to do with them?Most immigration proponents want to give them equal rights with the rest of us - allow them to live, work, and play here in the same manner as everyone else. But, lacking english, these can never have equal rights.?

And if we start discriminating against them in the workplace because of their lack of english (which I believe is fair, to be honest), then they can never earn enough to afford to go and learn english to get a better job! Should we not help them learn, or perhaps even require that they learn english?[/B][/QUOTE]

Okay not too sure about this but taking a reasonably educated guess I think its safe to assume that there are people in Ireland who are helping immigrants integrate, like I say I'm not too sure so I'll leave it at that.

As to what do we want to do with them, their not ours, and legally their is nothing we can do with them. What do you mean want to GIVE them equal rights, was their equal right status revoked when they entered the country, and now some people want to give it back????

Originally posted by bonkey
And if we start discriminating against them in the workplace because of their lack of english (which I believe is fair, to be honest), then they can never earn enough to afford to go and learn english to get a better job! Should we not help them learn, or perhaps even require that they learn english?

Now this is very worrying, you think its fair to discriminate against somebody because their English is not as good as yours. Or to put it another way you think its fair to discriminate. holy smokes Batman. Thats all I can say to that.

As to requiring them to learn English, that my freind is against the bloody law, you cannot force people to learn anything, thats just stupid. I know what you're thinking now, "wow did he take me up wrong, I meant require people to KNOW English for certain jobs" well I agree to this, but only for certain jobs, and only to the level necessary, and as I said the fellow in question has a sufficient level of English to carry out the job required of him. As to other jobs, well I am in Germany at the moment (studying) and contrary to your belief, I don't find my programming skills any worse the wear just because I can't speak fluent German, so thats also a half-stupid point.

Originally posted by bonkey
Concerning the specific problems which Yo Mamma had, it has struck me that somewhere like a fastfood chain is where some of the most complex nuances of english get used.

For example, just reading through his "verbatim" account, I can see where a ntaive english speaker could get confused, as the interpretation of what he is saying is purely denoted by the position of hte comma :

- No, bacon with cheese
- No bacon, with cheese

While the first is slightly grammatically incorrect, I have still heard its like used quite often. Also, compare :

- No with cheese
- No. With Cheese.

Given that No and Not are often confused by foreigners learning english I can honestly say that I can see where genuine confusion can occur.

At the end of the day, there is a problem with the language barrier, which is becoming more and more prevalent as many of the jobs which our newly-arrived neighbours end up in are as waiters and fast-food servers...where english skills are a must, but where the english used is often clipped and abbreviated making their life tougher.

The solution? Use full sentences. Always. You may sound a bit patronising to a native english speaker, but trust me, the person you are talking to who isnt a native speaker will appreciate it, and you'll have less trouble.

jc

The rest of it are pretty much okay, except for the no and not point, where in the name of the last supper did you get that one from. I mean no and not and yes and nothing, are some of only a small number of words that actually translate exactly in all languages, so once they have no, they know no, and once they have not, they know not. Now thats bad English I know but if you don't understand tell me and I'll put it another two ways and hopefully everyone will understand.

Baz_

Yo Mamma

I thought this post was locked down ???

Thx for reopening it Castor ! ( U must have been in a bad mood at the time;)) *sigh*the whim of the Admin :rolleyes:

Like I stated above I have nothing against anybody from anywhere else in the world and I genuinely don’t mean to offend with that post, I will admit to maybe theatricalising* it a bit too much, but I still stand by my original point..........

If u are involved in customer service of any sort and are hiring people for that kind of position, any position, that means u will be dealing with the public on a regular basis then I feel, even if it stems from a basic need for communication with the customers, there is a standard, Whatever the language being spoken, that needs to be upheld !!

It is just plain business sense.

Now the story posted is a little dramatic, but I was just using it to illustrate my point, maybe not the best way but I think u get the point !

Are BK (and others) hiring these people because they will work for "bottom dollar", or are they hiring these people because in our (up until recently) burgeoning economy a lot of people wouldn’t even consider these jobs.

Good point !

Bonkey always seems to say in his well-planned replies, what I meant to say in my not so well thought through posts !!

Shinji

There's another point here. Ireland relies heavily on the tourist economy; now, it's one thing a native English speaker being annoyed by having to explain a simple food order to someone who doesn't speak the language to a reasonable degree of competence, but it's another thing when a tourist whose grasp of the language isn't great tries to do the same thing...

It's not politically correct to suggest that people in customer-facing industries should have achieved certain standards of English, but it makes sense. Think of it from the point of view of you yourself going abroad; if I go to France or Germany, I'm flat out ordering something from a person who speaks perfect French or German. If I'm dealing with an immigrant who can't speak French or German any better than I can, it's just not happening.

Of course the problem is that BK and other such companies know that they can get people like this to work for them for bottom dollar. It's a very real problem though - perhaps some form of free classes in English language for people working in service industries are called for? Compulsory and subsidised by the employers - a neat way to get the likes of BK to contribute something to the staff they exploit, and a way to improve the standards of service in such establishments around the country as well.

Gordon

I can totally imagine your reaction to that situation Yomamma

It is sooo annoying, especially when they can't or don't see your frustration. Sometimes it is not the language barrier but the compassion barrier, sometimes people don't give a toss about what you want.

I think you should go around Dublin with a notebook and colouring pencils so that you can draw what you want
(difficult when you run out of paper and pencils and need to ask the person for paper and pencils)

*ting* my pennies worth

bonkey

Originally posted by Baz_
Oh come on. The level of English people have for this job is perfectly good enough, sometimes they get the order wrong, so what I have often been given the wrong burger by an Irish server. The fact of the matter is that when they get it wrong, they know how to fix it. Thats all their job entails, take an order, tell food maker, serve order, if order wrong, fix order. Now granted if he didn't have enough English to carry this set of instructions out then he should not have the job but he does, so end of complaint.

Actually, if I as a customer, have to consciously think about how to phrase my order, have to repeat it because of the lack of language skills of the server, or get a wrong order because they couldnt understand me and didnt have the courtesy to double check, then I class the customer service as poor or substandard.

When you go into any establishment, you are paying not only for the goods, but for the person serving you. You have a right to demand good service. Yes, anyone can get an order wrong, but if you believe (as Yo Mamma did) that the order was wrong becuse of a language barrier, then there is a problem with language.

His dramaticised account of the reordering shows that yes, the person serving him did have a problem understanding him. Seeing as I've never met the guy, I cant say if the problem was his or the servers, but he raises a valid point....

If I cannot be understood by the person serving me, when I am using the native language and speaking normally, then that person possibly has insufficient language skills to do their job satisfactorily.

What do you mean want to GIVE them equal rights, was their equal right status revoked when they entered the country, and now some people want to give it back????

Asylum seekers do not have the right to work when they enter the country. This is not equal rights. We didnt take these rights off htem when they came in here - they never had them.

Immigrants have equal rights under the eyes of the law, but in reality will get discriminated against if their language skills are not sufficient....

Now this is very worrying, you think its fair to discriminate against somebody because their English is not as good as yours. Or to put it another way you think its fair to discriminate. holy smokes Batman. Thats all I can say to that.

Perhaps I misrepresented myself a bit....

When a company looks to fill a position, it generally looks at all applicants and seeks the most suitable. This is a fundamental principle of business. Given two equally *technically* qualified people, one with good language skills and one without, the employer is correct in employing the person with better language skills.

In applying for or working in any job, people with a lack of basic communication skills will never be treated as well as those who have said skills. The inability to communicate in the local language at an aceptable level is often a crippling factor.

Like it or not, without good english skills, immigrants in this country will always sit at the bottom of the heap when it comes to getting work, and there is nothing incorrect about that. It is discrimination, but not unfair discrimination.

Not all discrimination is bad. As an employer, your job is to hire the most suitable people. Having a policy of "no foreigners" would be illegally discriminatory, but not hiring foreigners because there were always more suitable candidates who happened to be native is not illegal. It is still discriminatory though....on a case by case basis, you discriminate against those who are unsuitable for the jobs you have to offer.

As to requiring them to learn English, that my freind is against the bloody law, you cannot force people to learn anything, thats just stupid. I know what you're thinking

I would point out that (AFAIK) it is mandatory BY LAW for a child to go to school until a certain age (junior cert I think, but possibly only to the end of primary school) in order to ensure that they receive the minimum amount of eduication deemed necessary to be a productive and useful member of society (amongst other reasons).

Therefore, it is not against the law to require that someone learn something. I am suggesting that we expand that law.

My point was that if we are allowing these people into the country, helping to find them accomodation, helping to support them, shouldnt we also help them to become properly self-sufficient? If that involves *requiring* something of them in return for all the help the government gives them, I dont see a problem. Most people call it give and take. We give them a new life, we give them a place to live, we give them financial assistance. You are saying that we do not have the right to say "in return for all this, you must attend language schools which we will pay for and get your english up to an acceptable basic level" ??? Hell - most immigrants would jump at the chance.

job required of him. As to other jobs, well I am in Germany at the moment (studying) and contrary to your belief, I don't find my programming skills any worse the wear just because I can't speak fluent German, so thats also a half-stupid point.

Programming is english-based. The constructs are all english based. No matter what programming language you are learning you can find books in english on the subject as well.

Also, Germany is bordered by nations with multiple languages, leading to a higher degree of "multi-linguism" than in Ireland.

Furthermore, English, as the internationally recognised business language is spoken by a large number of Germans. This is further heightened by the American influence since WW2. Go anywhere near an American air-base (or former base) and you will find that pretty much everyone speaks almost fluent English. This info comes from German friends BTW - but I can honestly say the same about Switzerland where I live (except for the US bases, cause we dont have those).

Ireland is a reclusive island. It has one effective language (and before you try going on about Irish being our second language, try using it in most shops in Dublin). It does not have, nor need, the multi-lingual flexibility which the continent has, and also benefits from the fact that our "native" language happens to be the international business language which most non-native-english speaking europeans learn anyway.

In otherwords, not speaking german in germany is a lot easier than not speaking english in Ireland.....as long as you have either english or French to fall back on.

Do you honestly believe that a German with very little English would get on as well learning programming in Ireland as you do in Germany? I very much doubt it.

languages, so once they have no, they know no, and once they have not, they know not.

It has long been a classical symptom of Asians learning english that they use the word "no" for both "no" and "not". They also have difficulty distinguishing between the two, typically caused by the phonetic differences in our speech patterns. Bearing that in mind, go back and read my example, and you'll see exactly where it came from. Simply put, if you can change the meaning of a sentence by changing NO and NOT (allowing for poor grammar) then you will find large amounts of confusion amongst Asians learning English when it comes to the meaning.

I am not discriminating about Asians, but in my experience, this is a problem typical to them - I have not met many Europeans making the same mistake, except possibly Spanish and Italians now that I think about it.

jc

neuro-praxis

They need to make a living somehow. If MacDo and BK don't hire them, who will?

I'm a waitress and approximately 80% of our staff are non-nationals. Whilst the majority have better English than I do (they trained me in), there are a bunch with virtually none. You have to learn to speak slowly and concisely to them, don't get frustrated (for goodness's sake boys, it's burgers we're talking about here), and just generally be a bit more patient.

It's not difficult to be mature about the situation. If you maybe give it just one moment's thought.

Haven't you ever tried to express yourself in a foreign country whose language you didn't know? It's hard.

bonkey

Originally posted by Shinji
It's not politically correct to suggest that people in customer-facing industries should have achieved certain standards of English, but it makes sense.

Call me iggerant, but why isnt it politically correct to suggest that people have the skills necessary to do their jobs properly?

Working in a customer-facing job requires that you be able to supply customer service. This pretty much requires a grasp of the local lingo.

Can you imagine if banks decided that bank tellers didnt need good english skills? Or if the entrance exams they hold were forced to be removed for being discriminatory and/or politically incorrect?



jc

logic1

Abuse deleted.
_____________________
(/edit)



I think the fact of the matter is alot of people come and go to foreign countries then get jobs in Cafes as a good way to learn the language. But in a cafe your constantly talking to customers and attempting to make a small amount of general chit chat with them. In McDonalds the soul purpose of it is to get food quickly. Most of us don't sit down and lounge around for a meal then desert and coffee it's burger in bag then out the door. For this reason it's not a good place to learn a language and probably not a good place to work without at least the basics of "no cheese" or "extra bacon" but these places hire foreigners because for the most part foreign teenagers and even older people will work for alot less money than Irish people plus will probably complain a hell of alot less.

.logic.

bonkey

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
They need to make a living somehow. If MacDo and BK don't hire them, who will?

Dell in Limerick

Seriously though, I cant agree with you. Employers are not obliged to employ people with insufficient skills for the job. Its not a case of "who will" but rather "what must be done so that these people can be employable"

(for goodness's sake boys, it's burgers we're talking about here), and just generally be a bit more patient.

Generally, I try to be patient and courteous, but there are limits at which point I feel that I would be better off leaving and getting my food elsewhere.

Haven't you ever tried to express yourself in a foreign country whose language you didn't know? It's hard.

I agree. I'm just questioning the logic which puts these people in the "front line" of customer relations.

I work abroad (i.e. not Ireland). I rarely deal with customers at all, but when I do, I never deal with a customer who doesnt speak French or English - the two languages I am at least somewhat competent in. I am learning German so that when its good enough I can deal with German-speaking customers. I would be horrified if my company expected me to deal with a customer in German, as I would be giving a very poor representation of both myself and my employer.

jc

neuro-praxis

Point taken...but I bet your job isn't selling hamburgers to skangers.

(P.S. logic - I'm glad to see you're still in high spirits.)

foxinsocks

Just FYI,

A Quarter Pounder with cheese is actually not something on the Burger King Menu... its an item off the McDonalds Menu, so actually im not surprised that the person had difficulty understanding you in the first place.

The Burger King equivalent is a "Whopper without all the lettuce and tomato and salady stuff"

I have to say that i have in the past had *far* more trouble getting correct orders from people who speak english as their first language. It seems the people who have to really think about the language sometimes do a better job of actually thinking about the order. Somehow concentrating on one area of the job enhances their ability to do the other. Now if i see 5 different people serving behind the counter in mcd's or bk's or whatever, i'll actually attempt to discern which one has the worst english

Hobbes

Bold text Originally posted by bonkey
Asylum seekers do not have the right to work when they enter the country.

Indeed and if you actually went and looked up the stats you would find that there are less then 1,600 Asylum seekers who have been allowed entry, there are a number more still pending but they certainly don't work (legally).

We have this thing in Ireland called a P45 which without you cannot work. I would take a good guess McD and BK certainly won't hire people without one.

Work visas on the other hand (not immigrant visas) are oddly enough very easy to get at the moment in Ireland. I believe they are changing that though.

Given two equally *technically* qualified people, one with good language skills and one without, the employer is correct in employing the person with better language skills.

Actually you can't discriminate against a persons language skills. If they can speak English and do the job then there is no reason not to hire them. It's a fast food joint, not toastmasters.

My point was that if we are allowing these people into the country, helping to find them accomodation, helping to support them, shouldnt we also help them to become properly self-sufficient?

Yes I think everyone should be forced to speak Irish instead of English. Why discriminate after all?
Programming is english-based.

erm no it isn't. You obviously have never tried to debug a program written by a german or japanese national who has no english skills.

English, as the internationally recognised business language is spoken by a large number of Germans.

It is? I thought English was 2nd or 3rd?

Ireland is a reclusive island.

? if it was a reclusive island we wouldn't have so many foriegners here would we?

It has one effective language (and before you try going on about Irish being our second language, try using it in most shops in Dublin).

Better yet, try using it outside of Dublin? Like the rest of Ireland. Or for that matter try using it when applying for a goverment job and see how you fair against someone with equal skills.

It does not have, nor need, the multi-lingual flexibility which the continent has,

erm I believe English is one of the few languages that is spoken backwards. The syntax (?) of the Irish language matches those of a lot of foriegn languages so learning Irish

In otherwords, not speaking german in germany is a lot easier than not speaking english in Ireland

erm.. no.

Sure if you stay in the tourist areas. Try going to towns where people only speak German and good luck.

Because your immersed in the English language (TV/life) people get into a feeling that thier language is somehow more popular then everyone elses.

Do you honestly believe that a German with very little English would get on as well learning programming in Ireland as you do in Germany?

Or an Irish person trying to learn programming in Germany when they speak English. What is your point?

It has long been a classical symptom of Asians learning english that they use the word "no" for both "no" and "not".

Another classical symptom is people thinking that Asians are all alike. Heck there are numerous different variations of chinese dialects alone.

And Korean dialect is not the same as Chinese, or Japanese.

They also have difficulty distinguishing between the two, typically caused by the phonetic differences in our speech patterns.

Ever try to distinguish between similar sounding chinese words? Heck the exact same sounding word can have numerous different meanings depending on where it is in the sentance.

Or take Hangul (Korean) language, the same sentance changes depending on who is speaking it, the listener and the physical location of the two in relation to the context of the sentance.

Of course English has just as many pitfalls and werid rules.

Your seeming to suggest that somehow English is easier to learn? Or is that English speakers can somehow understand other nations languages easy?

this is a problem typical to them

First I heard.

There are good and poor English speakers all around the world. I know Koreans who speak better English then most people on this board.

I have not met many Europeans making the same mistake, except possibly Spanish and Italians now that I think about it.

Get out more.

Hobbes

btw there was a probably a good chance that someone spat in your burger.

adnans

same way i had a problem with the dublin accent when i came to live here. it was pure hell trying to understand what the person was saying in that well dodgy, ungrammatical form of english that most dublin people speak.

me: "can i have a hamburger with lettuce, cheese, pickles and tomato"
chipper person: "wha' ?"
me: " a ham-burger"
chipper person: "a burga'!! roight."

and so on. although i'm fluent in dublin speak now, i try and not to buy any burger substance from a chipper, McD or BK - it aint looking healthy at all.

adnans

The_Scary_Man

/\
II
II

LOL

Its funny coz it's true.

Victor

(1) Generally my experience with non-Irish shop assistants is better than with Irish shop assistants, especially Dubliners. The only time I have been really badly served in Burger King was by a Dubliner (let's face it I was given toilet paper instead of napkins, the wrong burger and cold fries). I've only been back to BK once in the last 3 years. Performance repeated.

(2) Many of the apparent 'influx' of Asian people into the profession of 'shop / counter assistant' are actually Chinese language students (approximately 10,000 per year).

(3) These people have the basics of English, but the level they have does vary. However, customers also have varying levels of English. Hey, when I spoke in French to (French) customers when I was in McDonalds, some of the Dublin staff freaked out.

(4) Also, when I worked in McDonalds, I was amazed at the level of ignorance of many of the (mostly Irish) customers. For example ordering 'batter burgers', Whoppers, 'fish on a plate', chips, chocolate ice-cream - none of which appear on the McDonalds menu.

(5) Customers (and I think Yo Mamma, in this case) need to be more aware that dublin is a much more Cosmopolitan place than it was only a few years ago. It is also the customers duty to assist the staff.

(6) I'm trying desparately not to be personal against Yo Mamma here (but admittedly failing), why do you think so many of these Chinese students go to another particular internet cafe and not to the one you work in. Perhaps because some of the staff are less than acceptable to them?

stu_69

Originally posted by Victor
[B

(4) Also, when I worked in McDonalds, I was amazed at the level of ignorance of many of the (mostly Irish) customers. For example ordering 'batter burgers', Whoppers, 'fish on a plate', chips, chocolate ice-cream - none of which appear on the McDonalds menu.
[/B]

lol. I remember when I worked in McDonalds, Dublin people(of which I am one) would order the stupidiest things:

A chicken McSambwich(say it out loud)

or the common one: "gis a filit fish yoke"

I am in Australia at the moment and in McDonalds, BK, Hungry Jacks(this one confused the shite out of me when I first got here. Hungry Jacks is Burger King!!! They bought an Australian fast food place kept the name but they sell Burger King products), Taco Bell, Portos and all the other fast food restuarants the majority of the staff are Asian. Most of these would be English Language students (200,000 per year). Most of the time I have no problem ordering food from them I have problems when I order food from English speaking Australians who can't understand my accent.

The other morning I went to get a cup of tea from a street vendor. I like my milky white so I said the bloke who could speak perfect English(well as good as an Aussie can get ) "Tea with loads of milk" He couldn't comprehend this it took five minutes with me eventually putting the milk in myself. When he seen what I was doing he said "Why didn't you just ask for milky tea mate?" I had to laugh

Typedef

Originally posted by Hobbes
btw there was a probably a good chance that someone spat in your burger.

What an awful suggestion, it's far more likely that the burger dropped on the ground before being served to you and/or even more likely that the person who was making it did not wash their hands after the toilet, rubbish bins, picking their nose and eating it!

Typedef

Clintons Cat

the pay might seem acceptable but in reality the conditions are pretty poor.
Firstly there is no garaunteed weekly hourly contract so employers can employ you for as many hours as they like fine if theres plenty of overtime not so good if you site is seasonal and they deciede they only need you for 20 hours a week.Its a bitch when that bearly covers your rent.
Secondly a lengthy career in fast food catering marks you down as undesirable as far as other employers are concerned.Employers receive hundreds of job applications to quickly scan whilst making the choice of who to interview.You might be able to work under preasure to the highest standards of hygene and customer service but you'll find it hard to dress up 5 years at MacKings Chicken Hut in any way that doesnt scream DEADBEAT to prospective employers.
Thirdly many members of the public tend to treat people who work in such establishments in a contemptable manner.During my working tour of britains finest burger joints i regulary encountered guys and gals from all corners of the world.Many of whom were working part time whilst studying english.Some of these people were Doctors,architects,and engineers in their own countries.The levels of linguistical abilities varied greatly although a basic grasp of english was required for interveiw.Contary to popular myth burger joints do screen their applicants prior to hiring them.
Finally i found my own grasp of English tended to be proportionate to the ammount of courtesy and civility displayed by the customer.If their opening gambit was "ah no another foriner why does nobody in these place speak english?"
I would be sure to make them repeat their order at least four times,whilst helpfully but ineffectually pointing at the Menu board in a confused but helpful manner,
If they were particulary obnoxious i would make them read out their order exactly as written on the menu board,all those Mc prefixes that sound spammy to say,Go on say it slowly maybe i will understand
"A Maccc Chicken Sandwitch with Small fries"
"we have no small fries you want regular fries?"
"yes...Regular Fries and a small Coke"
"no coke you want Mc Donalds Cola?"
"yes a mac donalds cola"
"which size?"

Clintons Cat

and prepared my speech patterns for the basest of English communications

You wan fries with that?

Baz_

Originally posted by bonkey

Actually, if I as a customer, have to consciously think about how to phrase my order, have to repeat it because of the lack of language skills of the server, or get a wrong order because they couldnt understand me and didnt have the courtesy to double check, then I class the customer service as poor or substandard.

When you go into any establishment, you are paying not only for the goods, but for the person serving you. You have a right to demand good service. Yes, anyone can get an order wrong, but if you believe (as Yo Mamma did) that the order was wrong becuse of a language barrier, then there is a problem with language.

His dramaticised account of the reordering shows that yes, the person serving him did have a problem understanding him. Seeing as I've never met the guy, I cant say if the problem was his or the servers, but he raises a valid point....

If I cannot be understood by the person serving me, when I am using the native language and speaking normally, then that person possibly has insufficient language skills to do their job satisfactorily.

But the fact remains that if you get what you ordered then you have been understood if you have been understood, then your server has good enough english for the job in question.

Originally posted by bonkey

Asylum seekers do not have the right to work when they enter the country. This is not equal rights. We didnt take these rights off htem when they came in here - they never had them.

Immigrants have equal rights under the eyes of the law, but in reality will get discriminated against if their language skills are not sufficient....

Okay but we weren't talking about asylum seekers we were in fact talking about immigrants, I know their is probably a fine line but the fact that we were talking about working in the country means that the person has surpassed the assylum seeking stage, and as you stated immigrants have equal rights, and if people want to discriminate work away, thats a choice but not a wise one. Discrimination is wrong m-kay?

Originally posted by bonkey
Perhaps I misrepresented myself a bit....

When a company looks to fill a position, it generally looks at all applicants and seeks the most suitable. This is a fundamental principle of business. Given two equally *technically* qualified people, one with good language skills and one without, the employer is correct in employing the person with better language skills.

In applying for or working in any job, people with a lack of basic communication skills will never be treated as well as those who have said skills. The inability to communicate in the local language at an aceptable level is often a crippling factor.

Like it or not, without good english skills, immigrants in this country will always sit at the bottom of the heap when it comes to getting work, and there is nothing incorrect about that. It is discrimination, but not unfair discrimination.

Not all discrimination is bad. As an employer, your job is to hire the most suitable people. Having a policy of "no foreigners" would be illegally discriminatory, but not hiring foreigners because there were always more suitable candidates who happened to be native is not illegal. It is still discriminatory though....on a case by case basis, you discriminate against those who are unsuitable for the jobs you have to offer.

Okay here there was a wee bit of confusion alright, and I agree with the basic premise that if English is an integral part of the job then the better English speaker should get the job, I would by no means call this discrimination however, its just common sense isnt it.

Originally posted by bonkey
I would point out that (AFAIK) it is mandatory BY LAW for a child to go to school until a certain age (junior cert I think, but possibly only to the end of primary school) in order to ensure that they receive the minimum amount of eduication deemed necessary to be a productive and useful member of society (amongst other reasons).

Okay I knew the first bit but I didn't know that that was the reason, I thought it was something to do with everybody having a right to an education, and that being below a certain age you are considered not able to exercise your rights so you have to go (something like that). But since I'm not sure I'll give you that one:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bonkey
Therefore, it is not against the law to require that someone learn something. I am suggesting that we expand that law.

you know what thats not logical, and it doesn't necessarily follow from the previous clause, but I still think that it is illegal to force people (once above a certain age mind, below that the parents decide) to study a certain subject. Their is a word for it, indoctrination I think (although not ideal for this example).

Originally posted by bonkey
My point was that if we are allowing these people into the country, helping to find them accomodation, helping to support them, shouldnt we also help them to become properly self-sufficient? If that involves *requiring* something of them in return for all the help the government gives them, I dont see a problem. Most people call it give and take. We give them a new life, we give them a place to live, we give them financial assistance. You are saying that we do not have the right to say "in return for all this, you must attend language schools which we will pay for and get your english up to an acceptable basic level" ??? Hell - most immigrants would jump at the chance.

This is so different to what went before that its funny. I also would jump at the chance be helped find accomodation, support etc... to be educated. And its not requiring them either its a tit for tat exchange, i scratch your back etc.etc.

Originally posted by bonkey
Programming is english-based. The constructs are all english based. No matter what programming language you are learning you can find books in english on the subject as well.

Hobbes dealt with that better than I can.

Originally posted by bonkey
Also, Germany is bordered by nations with multiple languages, leading to a higher degree of "multi-linguism" than in Ireland.

Furthermore, English, as the internationally recognised business language is spoken by a large number of Germans. This is further heightened by the American influence since WW2. Go anywhere near an American air-base (or former base) and you will find that pretty much everyone speaks almost fluent English. This info comes from German friends BTW - but I can honestly say the same about Switzerland where I live (except for the US bases, cause we dont have those).

Ireland is a reclusive island. It has one effective language (and before you try going on about Irish being our second language, try using it in most shops in Dublin). It does not have, nor need, the multi-lingual flexibility which the continent has, and also benefits from the fact that our "native" language happens to be the international business language which most non-native-english speaking europeans learn anyway.

this is going a bit of topic, and I dont see how it relates to getting a burger.

Originally posted by bonkey
In otherwords, not speaking german in germany is a lot easier than not speaking english in Ireland.....as long as you have either english or French to fall back on.

Do you honestly believe that a German with very little English would get on as well learning programming in Ireland as you do in Germany? I very much doubt it.

I'm not talking about learning the programming I'm talking about applying the programming, ie. we were talking about discrimination for jobs, and fair enough if you need the national language, then thats me fuxxored (although I know a bit of German, it would not be very easy for me to deal with customers on an ongoing basis), but if I need to be able to program then thats okay because I can. It depends on what the job requires.

Originally posted by bonkey
It has long been a classical symptom of Asians learning english that they use the word "no" for both "no" and "not". They also have difficulty distinguishing between the two, typically caused by the phonetic differences in our speech patterns. Bearing that in mind, go back and read my example, and you'll see exactly where it came from. Simply put, if you can change the meaning of a sentence by changing NO and NOT (allowing for poor grammar) then you will find large amounts of confusion amongst Asians learning English when it comes to the meaning.

I am not discriminating about Asians, but in my experience, this is a problem typical to them - I have not met many Europeans making the same mistake, except possibly Spanish and Italians now that I think about it.

jc

I'm sorry about that but I didn't know that about some asian languages, I thought no meant no in all languages. Okay the Spanish and Italians bit I don't understand whatsoever. I know a few Spanish, and a couple of Italians, and I have not heard one mistake in regards the usage of no and not, from any of them. But again even if I did I would put it down to the similar vocalisations because I know they understand the difference.

Anyways I need sleep, or maybe just coffee, so I'll leave it there for now.

Baz_

P.S. Bonkey how long are you in switzerland for????? I'll be needing a job next february hint hint.

bonkey

Originally posted by Hobbes
Programming is english-based.

erm no it isn't. You obviously have never tried to debug a program written by a german or japanese national who has no english skills.

Actually - thats part of my job over here I work as a programmer. With German (and swiss-German) people. I often maintain their code. Which is "in German".

I have no problem, because the only place the german appears is variable names and comments....which matter not to me.

I do not know much German (a 2-year old native can speak more German than me). I have no problems.

English, as the internationally recognised business language is spoken by a large number of Germans.

It is? I thought English was 2nd or 3rd?
p/b]

2nd or 3rd most spoken language in the world.
Officially the International Business Language - it hits the best balance between brevity and clarity, and is the basis for pretty much all IT languages.

It does not have, nor need, the multi-lingual flexibility which the continent has,

erm I believe English is one of the few languages that is spoken backwards. The syntax (?) of the Irish language matches those of a lot of foriegn languages so learning Irish

What has the structure of English as a language go to do with the need for multiple languages in Ireland as compared to Continental Europe. You've lost me. Not that this is hard - my brain is running extra-slowly today.

In otherwords, not speaking german in germany is a lot easier than not speaking english in Ireland

erm.. no.

Sure if you stay in the tourist areas. Try going to towns where people only speak German and good luck.

You mean like the small little town I live in, in the heart of Switzerland, which has 3 local languages (German, Franch, Italian) and most people speak 2 of those and English?

Non-touristy places like that ???



In Germany, Switzerland & Austria you need to go well rural to get away from English - from my experience, and those I have talked to about this who live in said countries.

It has long been a classical symptom of Asians learning english that they use the word "no" for both "no" and "not".

Another classical symptom is people thinking that Asians are all alike. Heck there are numerous different variations of chinese dialects alone.

And Korean dialect is not the same as Chinese, or Japanese.

Yes, I know. There is a Chinese girl and a Thai girl on my German course here in Bern. Both have differing language difficulties with phonetics. Both drop their t's. As have most Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and other asians that I have known. Maybe I'm unfortunate in meeting people from diverse nations who all suffer from the same atypical flaw in their speaking, but I would feel that I've met enough of them to say that this one foible appears to be a common trait amongst them. I've also heard it from several linguists. Unfortunately, I cant post URLs to people as a reference

How did you manage to conclude that I I assumed their own dialects were identical when all I said was that they share one common trait?

They also have difficulty distinguishing between the two, typically caused by the phonetic differences in our speech patterns.

Ever try to distinguish between similar sounding chinese words? Heck the exact same sounding word can have numerous different meanings depending on where it is in the sentance.

Or take Hangul (Korean) language, the same sentance changes depending on who is speaking it, the listener and the physical location of the two in relation to the context of the sentance.

This is exactly my point. Learning foreign languages involves learning the nuances - and for a lot of asian people, one of those nuances that typically proves difficult is the "T" at the end of a word....hence the problem with "no" and "not" which brings me right back to my argument as to how interchanging these words in a sentence can lead to completely different. Course, reading back to the original post....I typod! DOH!

I was trying to show how easily it is for a foreigner who drops Ts to distinguish between "not with cheese" and "no, with cheese".

Your seeming to suggest that somehow English is easier to learn? Or is that English speakers can somehow understand other nations languages easy?

No, I'm trying to show how English is not simple to learn, and a classical phonetic problem shows exactly where the confusion can arise in what YoMamma was describing as the misunderstanding.

My apologies for being unclear.

There are good and poor English speakers all around the world. I know Koreans who speak better English then most people on this board.

All bar one of the native Koreans I know who have learned English as a second language suffer from this "dropped T" problem I described. I never said they all do - I said it was a typical problem.

I have not met many Europeans making the same mistake, except possibly Spanish and Italians now that I think about it.

Get out more.

What - leave the Swiss, Germans, French, Italians, Austrians and Irish that I work with, the Spanish I visit regularly, and go where exactly?

jc

joev

Originally posted by bonkey

What - leave the Swiss, Germans, French, Italians, Austrians and Irish that I work with, the Spanish I visit regularly, and go where exactly?

You left out the English, Chinese, Thai, Congolese and Irish you study German with.

joev

koneko

I typed up a big long reply here but I'm not going to bother posting it. It's not worth it, cos Yo Mamma is just an ignorant racist ... well.. you get the idea...

I won't go into the fact that the service you described is what most people get off the Dooblin-locals here, and the "foreigners" are actually friendlier and more helpful. At least every second word they mutter isn't "fvck".
Take a look around and grow up, a lot of us here are "foreign" (including myself).

Yo Mamma

Well there is always one............

If u think I'm a racist well that’s fine, its ur right to do so......................

I know I'm not, my friends (some of whom are from different pastures *shock horror*) know I’m not and just about everybody that has met me knows I'm not !! So I’m not going try and defend myself to you or anybody else !!!

Sounds to me like u have the chip on your shoulder........

koneko

meow...scratch...hiss

I'm just saying you came across as being racist. Probably just a bad experience in a fast-food place. They're generally abysmal anyways. I once had to wait 20 mins for a quarterpounder - now that's fast and wow the person serving was Irish.


No offence meant, dude (hmm), and no I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Though I'm sure with there's a joke in there somewhere (Burger King... chips... oh never mind).

Hobbes

2nd or 3rd most spoken language in the world.
Officially the International Business Language

Erm can you point out where you got that from? Because I was speaking of International Business language. I think French is first?

English as a spoken language is a lot lower then 2nd or 3rd.

As for most languages being structured in English? Only ones developed in the US.

I had to work on a machine (can't say) which was built and designed in France and the operating system and programming language was all in French.

What has the structure of English as a language go to do with the need for multiple languages in Ireland as compared to Continental Europe. You've lost me.

Esperanto?

and for a lot of asian people, one of those nuances that typically proves difficult is the "T" at the end of a word....

I have never seen this problem you speak of and most of my job involved dealing with Asian/Japanese nationals.

I said it was a typical problem.

You said for Asians, and then you said for Koreans. Can't be for all of them?

I think Korean for "No" is also the same for "not"? (aneyo?) I would need to check my dictionary to confirm that.

bonkey

Originally posted by Hobbes
2nd or 3rd most spoken language in the world.
Officially the International Business Language

Erm can you point out where you got that from? Because I was speaking of International Business language. I think French is first?

Looking for a reference now...the place I got it from was a company I did some consulting for a while back, who had a whole set of info on this type of thing.

I'd be amazed if it was French TBH. Not only is it less spoken internationally than Spanish or English, I've worked in some French companies, and those who had international dealings typically worked through English. To be fair - they were multinational corporations like ABB, who despite being French and German in origin, had settled on English as their corporate language.

As a matter of interest, can you point out where you're getting French from, or will we agree to differ?

I said it was a typical problem.

You said for Asians, and then you said for Koreans. Can't be for all of them?

Err - I mentioned Asians as a generality. You mentioned Koreans specifically. I responded by mentioning Koreans specifically. I repsonded by talking about the Koreans I know personally and the traits I have noticed in their language. What is your problem with this?

Allow me to be a bit clearer. in excess of 90% of the asians I have met who are learning english have problems due to the differences in our phonetic alphabets. A common trait I have noticed across all of those having problems has been the dropping of Ts. I have taken this as a trend. I have also discussed phonetic problems with some linguists (mostly about European langauges, to be honest) and I thought I recalled them saying the same thing about this issue. I could of course be mistaken.

If you work with Asians, then you probably have met more. If you say you do not see this problem, I will believe you, and chalk it down to a statistical anomaly. I'm not very interested in discussing nitpicking points like this to be honest.

Xterminator

Koneko

Oxford Desk Dictionary and Thesaurus (1997 Edition) defines Racism it as
Belief in the superiority of a particular race; prejudice based on this

Now your post

I typed up a big long reply here but I'm not going to bother posting it. It's not worth it, cos Yo Mamma is just an ignorant racist ... well.. you get the idea...
I won't go into the fact that the service you described is what most people get off the Dooblin-locals here, and the "foreigners" are actually friendlier and more helpful. At least every second word they mutter isn't "fvck".
Take a look around and grow up, a lot of us here are "foreign" (including myself).

Your comments about 'Dooblin' people are racist. You are calling the kettle black.

Classing a group of people, based on origin, and associating them with being unfriendly, cursing and making a jibe about their accents ...

I'm not taking it too seriously .. but let he who is without sin cast the first stone .. etc etc.


X

Victor

Originally posted by Xterminator
Your comments about 'Dooblin' people are racist. You are calling the kettle black.

Maybe not racist, but close enough. However, as one of many people who came to Dublin to work, I feel the attitude of many Dublin people (especially of the 'Doobla' and 'DORT' varieties, not so much the Dublin variety) to their work, their environment and other people leaves a lot to be desired.

The Gopher

Originally posted by Yo Mamma



Counter attnd: "Welcome to Bargher Keeng, mhay I tagghe yo ordar?"
Me: "Yeah, can I get a Quarter pounder with cheese, and an orange juice?"
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda wid bacon an chis, and won oran juice?"
Me: "No. No bacon. Quarter pounder with cheese." ( I dont even think a Quarter pounder with bacon and cheese exists at BK !!!)
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda wid bacon an chis."
Me: "...NO bacon. WITH CHEESE."
Counter attnd: (surprised) "No bacon?"
Me: "No bacon. With cheese."
Counter attnd: "Quarda pounda no bacon wid cheese an won oran juice. wait one moment please."
I'm hesitant to leave it at that, but he confirmed that last bit so I figure I'm good to go. so I hand over the cash, he repeats my order, and hands it to me. I am satisfied, but not very trusting. As I make to leave, I reach into the bag and grab the "burger". I peel open the wrapper and to my utter shock I exclaim "THOSE FCUKERS!" There, in my hand, Quarter pounder, no cheese.
I threw the Quarter pounder into the bag and walked back to the counter. I handed the bag to the guy who took my order and gave me the food.

:rolleyes:

Im still trying to figure out wether this staff member was Chinese or just Inner City Dub:D But seriously whats Castor Troys problem?He closes any arguement which is slightly insulting to all the tally ho ya ya pip say what what what what what Trinity liberals yah.The ppl are generally un-PC.Theyve the right to be in the privacy of their own ho,mes and even on the street,so why not the net,the home of anything controversial and firebrand?Give free speech online a chance for christ sake without having your posts raided by the thought police.