withhold payment

Macker

How about we withhold payment of our Eircon bills for 1 month and repeat it as often as necessary.......let them sweat for thier money

Macker

dahamsta

I do that as a matter of course. However, legally Eircom can cut you off if you don't pay within, what, 14 days? And then they can charge you an arm and a leg to reconnect you. And they'll take their sweet time about it too. But sure, hold off paying until you /have/ to anyway. It's not as if they deserve prompt payment. Quite the opposite in fact.

adam

chernobyl

well im billed bi-monthly but usually on pay Eircom once in 4 months, generally i have lost the bill..and come to think of it.. i have done it again.

Red Moose

But they're going to get the money *anyway*. It's not like, if *you* are waiting for someone to pay you £250, an extra month can get irritating.

Eircom are large enough that it really wouldn't make a damn bit of difference - unless you think the board of management are sitting are saying "ARGH! Why will Macker not pay us!" . Accounts and books are all balanced by the end of the year, and it's all like a big equilibrium, with them putting down unpaid bills each month as either bad debts or other stuff in the books, and it all gets paid and adds up in end.

However, you will make *yourself* feel better....so it's worth it.

Macker

Yeah but if we could get lots more people to do it ,cancel direct debits etc... it might have more effect



Macker

dahamsta

It's not like, if *you* are waiting for someone to pay you £250, an extra month can get irritating.

Irritates the hell out of me.

unless you think the board of management are sitting are saying "ARGH! Why will Macker not pay us!"

Well of course they wouldn't. But as Macker says, if a /thousand/ people cancelled their DD's[1] and paid at the very last minute, it does inconvenience them a little. Just a little, but hell, any kind of inconvenience for that shower is nice, eh?

However, you will make *yourself* feel better....so it's worth it.

Exactly!

adam

[1] This is not a reference to orders placed at lingerie shops.

seamus

Problem is......many of the supporters(me included) live at home and regardless of how passionate I am about IOFFL, they aren't going to change their routine for me, unless I go and make the payments for them, which I don't have any time to be doing

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Most small companies will operate on the accruals basis anyway so I'm not sure what impact this will have- None most likely:(

For residential users, I could only perceive problems especially if there is persisitent withholding of payments-ie- eventually they'll just see no economy in resending you out letters and probably just disconnect you:(

Boston

well I think we should all cancel DD anyway.
and yes I think with holding payment until the warning letter is a good idea, we would forward that around on the mailing list to all the members.
its not illegal, once you intend to pay.
and judging from the bills people posted here, if we got all the members together we could hold up .3 million (at least)in revenue for a month. it would be nice to see how eircom like having to wait.

don't dismiss this idea, I think its great and the type of thing ioffl should be permuting on an ongoing bases. You can bet we would be discussed at board meetings if me did. by holding up payment and not using DD we will be costing eircom money.
it may be just a little but it would be better then nothing

Boston

Originally posted by 80project
For residential users, I could only perceive problems especially if there is persisitent withholding of payments-ie- eventually they'll just see no economy in resending you out letters and probably just disconnect you:(

I really wish someone could clear this up. first I believe it will have an effect, and any effect is better then sitting around bitching about why we don't have an effect.
second, im not sure they can do what you saying, yes if you continually refuse to pay one bill. no if your delayed paying each bill.
afaik they have to send you out a warning and only after that can they cut you off. cutting off some one phone is no small thing, and if they did it every time after someone didn't pay within 2 weeks they would be in court every other week

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»

second, im not sure they can do what you saying, yes if you continually refuse to pay one bill. no if your delayed paying each bill.

They are fully entitled to not supply you @ all if they so decide- whether you pay on time or not- just as any company can as per the Sale of goods and supply of services act 1980

SkepticOne

Not a good idea, IMHO.

Although widely practiced, it is not considered "good form". IrelandOffline's image would suffer. It is unlikely that Eircom have cash flow problems so what they would lose is the interest on the payments of the people who take part. Even if this were to be a significant amount of money (unlikely), it would be difficult to attach a "message" to the protest. Eircom could easily turn it against IOFFL. To successfully attach a message, the protest must be above reproach.

Compare this with the blackout. It is perfectly acceptable to withdraw one's custom from a business. Although financially this does not hurt Eircom either (at most a tiny fraction of 1%), it may allow for good publicity and Eircom have no comeback.

Just my two cents.

hmmm

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
well I think we should all cancel DD anyway.
and yes I think with holding payment until the warning letter is a good idea, we would forward that around on the mailing list to all the members.

Trouble is Eircrap don't bother sending out warning letters any more, they just cut you off. Why should they bother, it's not like you have a choice and can go to any other telecoms provider

Dustaz

This is the stupidest idea yet.
1. as has been pointed out, eircom can cut you off for no reason, and they probably will if they think you are getting pissy like this.

2. If you think that people cancelling thier DD's or not paying on time is going to have any effect whatsoever, then your dumber than i thought. The amount of ppl on this forum is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall subscribers to eircom. If you think that 20 'nerds' delaying thier payment by a few days will help, then you seriously need to rethink your view of the world. This is of course moot if you can get press coverage, but judging by the apathy of a lot of the press towards a decidedly unsexy topic, its very doubtfull.

Macker

"2. If you think that people cancelling thier DD's or not paying on time is going to have any effect whatsoever, then your dumber than i thought. The amount of ppl on this forum is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall subscribers to eircom. If you think that 20 'nerds'..... "

So f*ck it then lets all pay the £100 plus......Eircon win ....end of story......F*ck you and you're defeatist attitude

ICQ 68227666

Macker

Red Moose

Well, cancelling direct debits might be a nice idea. The accounting people and those who judge what "worth" the company has would have a big number on the predicted monthly sum income from DD people, and then other numbers waiting for cheques, etc., so it's more hassle for *them* if you stop DD.

And to stop you having the hassle of writing/posting to them or the post-office or bank, setup that Billpay.ie thing, where you just organise with your bank account to view online, etc., and you can shoot the money through instantly when the 14 day limit is due. As long as you are *just* within the limit you're fine.

I dont' have the Billpay thing setup, but it looks like a very nice balance between direct debit ease and automatic-bank-debits-paranoia (Maybe that's just me though ). Result that they cannot guarantee to the money people in Eircom of dates of payment, etc., .

So say if 100 people stopped DD of normal bills of maybe £200 for 2 months, that's 20 grand off the books that was nice and DD "guaranteed" for net value, etc., . Over a year that's quarter of a million a year, only with 1/10th the membership of Ireland Offline doing it.

DD is evil - no company should be able to auotmatically deduct money without you knowing how much. Instant money transfer is the answer.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Macker


So f*ck it then lets all pay the £100 plus......Eircon win ....end of story......F*ck you and you're defeatist attitude

Sorry to break this to you, but you are obliged to pay that money to them if you use thier services. Feel free to withold payment for as long as you want. Dont ask me for help with your legal fees.

There is a difference between realist and defeatist.

The Seminar was a great move. The Blackout, while i have misgivings about the effectiveness of it, is a good idea and has a hope of generating some interest in the cause.
This idea is just bloody stupid and to be honest is counter-productive. If anyone gets cut of because of this, they have noone but themselves to blame.

dahamsta

I remain "in between" on this idea. Granted, it's not going to be very effective against Eircom, and it's going to draw very little attention to the wider "cause", but as someone said, if it makes you feel better about it, how bad? What harm?

I also agree with the suggestion that DD, for the most part, is evil. For fixed fees it's fine, but that's what standing orders are for. And it's putting control into the suppliers hands, which is plain wrong. If you're inaccurately billed, *you* have to go to the trouble of getting your money back. However, without DD, you're inclined to review your bill more accurately. And you're inclined to pay the bill /when it's due/, and not before.

I have only one DD, Digifone. I cancelled the rest. I don't trust the fsckers.

adam

Boston

Originally posted by Dustaz
This is the stupidest idea yet.
1. as has been pointed out, eircom can cut you off for no reason, and they probably will if they think you are getting pissy like this.

2. If you think that people cancelling thier DD's or not paying on time is going to have any effect whatsoever, then your dumber than i thought. The amount of ppl on this forum is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall subscribers to eircom. If you think that 20 'nerds' delaying thier payment by a few days will help, then you seriously need to rethink your view of the world. This is of course moot if you can get press coverage, but judging by the apathy of a lot of the press towards a decidedly unsexy topic, its very doubtfull.

if you think that attitude is going to get us anywere, then you are dumber then I thought.

They Want you to use DD, and why the hell would you do something they want. Why help the problem.

BTW i dont see you coming up with great ideas, in fact the only time i see you here, seem to be to take a shot at someone

Macker

"Sorry to break this to you, but you are obliged to pay that money to them if you use thier services. Feel free to withold payment for as long as you want. Dont ask me for help with your legal fees. "

no need to apologise......read my first post I said a month

lots of little things like the blackout etc.....may make things happen or not who knows but sitting on our arses sure won't do squat.

Thats's not to say the committee ain't doing stuff in the background......I'm sure they are

Macker

Boston

if were going to sit around waiting for one big things that will effect eircom, that we all will agree on, then we will be waiting along time. the simple fact is, allot of you people who talked big here about **** eircom and that crap, were very willing to grab the ****e ADSL offer they had with both hands, and for every one that admitted there was 10 that didn't.

what good is it having 1000,2000, what ever, members. but when it come to the crunch half of them are all mouth and no bottle. if I march was organized for Dublin in a few weeks time, im betting not one mouth would turn up.

NeilF

Originally posted by Dustaz
Sorry to break this to you, but you are obliged to pay that money to them if you use thier services. Feel free to withold payment for as long as you want.

.....

If anyone gets cut of because of this, they have noone but themselves to blame.

If the hassle of cancelling a direct debit and remembering to write a cheque on the due date is outweighed by the personal satisfaction of making it as difficult as possible for Eircom to take your money then I'd say off you go. Its important that you have....er.... "Closure" to these bimonthly shocks

However, don't forget who you are dealing with and what they are capable of. I do know of an instance where someone mislaid a bill and therefore forgot to pay it. They were then cut off without a reminder. They were, however, promptly reconnected, to Eircom's credit. We want cheap Internet access because it is so vital to our businesses/lives: Do you really want to risk being without the Internet and a phone line?

I was going to suggest paying your bill in pennies (or cent from 1st. Jan ) in person at an Eircom store, but I think that option has been removed as a means of payment. Personally I take the view that their days of fleecing us are numbered and I'm saving my energy for the day I ditch them. Until then, we just have to live with them.

Every dog has his day and we'll have ours.

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
the simple fact is, allot of you people who talked big here about **** eircom and that crap, were very willing to grab the ****e ADSL offer they had with both hands,

.....

what good is it having 1000,2000, what ever, members. but when it come to the crunch half of them are all mouth and no bottle.

IrelandOffline is about three things, which you'll find on the web page. It is entirely conceivable for someone to avail of some ADSL product from Eircom and still support our goals. To make it out to be some sort of treachery is daft. This is not an anti-Eircom association.

I think that we are generally referred to as supporters rather than members. This is not a perfect world and on a daily basis I encounter things I am not happy with. The lack of cheap Internet access is just one of them. Hence I count myself among the thousand who support IrelandOffline.

However, we are a diverse bunch. Some would march on Eircom's HQ every day if they could, others wouldn't. Some see sense in not using the Internet for a few days, others don't. Some think talking to politicians will bring about change, others don't. Some think setting up their own ISP is the solution, others don't. Some attended a seminar, others didn't.

Only a couple of hundred attended the seminar: Does that make it a failure? It is up to each individual member to decide whether or not to support any event or plan. We all share a common goal but we will each go our own way about achieving it. Sounds a bit like competition to me

BoneCollector

What if we could some how rally the support of all! residential phone users to with hold payment for the next 2 bills??
(what are eircom gonna doo cut everyone off!?)

dahamsta

I'm absolutely locked again, but... hang on, there was something... ah yes... no... bugger...

oh right... hang on... gotta quote someone...

Thats's not to say the committee ain't doing stuff in the background......I'm sure they are

They are.

Not me, just "they are", ok?

God, I'm arsed. Heh, Happy Christy, ok?

Heh.

adam

dahamsta

Heh, cool post. Heh.

adam

Boston

Originally posted by NeilF
IrelandOffline is about three things, which you'll find on the web page. It is entirely conceivable for someone to avail of some ADSL product from Eircom and still support our goals. To make it out to be some sort of treachery is daft. This is not an anti-Eircom association.

how can you think that, it underminds our cause to take such a bad offer, its saying, as per ususal, were not united and were going to take it.

once one person starts to use the bloody thing, eircom turns around and say well this stat shows a 100% penetration rate, (small print, in the stupidly rich)

btw, i wasnt, saying dont take it because it was eircom, which seem to me you did i was. i wouldnt take that offer from esat either

NeilF

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
once one person starts to use the bloody thing, eircom turns around and say well this stat shows a 100% penetration rate, (small print, in the stupidly rich)

Conversely if no one takes up ADSL Eircom can say there is no demand and refuse to provide it. ADSL will be two battles. The first will be getting it, the second reducing the cost.

I'd love to be able to take the high ground with Eircom but if people are paying 200, 300 or even 400 pounds a month and Eircom offer them a way to reduce that to a hundred pounds it is a very tempting proposition. Unlike Eircom many of IrelandOffline's members are running businesses in a competitive market and want to keep their costs as low as possible. They just have to take whatever is being offered.

Boston

well you have to look at it this way, whats better, the hope that one day you will get a decent price.
or the fact that every bill will be £200 at least (2 months) and cap charging on top of that.

BoneCollector

Saying that eircom can claim that demand is not there because no one currently subscribes to adsl is nearly as bad as saying that the proposed Blackout eircom will probably say the weekend internet access demand has suddenly drop and indicates a significant dis-interest in the internet as a whole as weekend access is a significant indicator as to public demand on the whole.

Its all PR cr*p which we have to try cut through to educate these people in the what is truth and beat out this corruption in this state when it comes to telecommunications and the Government.

Though we will never do this sitting on our backsides.
BTW i getting the slight impression that members are considered those that have registered, i seriously think that Honoury members who visit the board should not be singled out with any updates, news or action, as we are all a collective part of this.

Also im curious... How many of you are using your email to get support or presure others in to action.?

dahamsta

NeilF is right - for some, ADSL would be a necessity, not an option. I would absolutely have to take ADSL if it was available in my area, not out of choice, but because I simply /have/ to cut my comms costs. I also agree that there will be two fights, getting the products and services in the first place, and then getting the prices down. Of course Boston is right as well, in that there's the caps to think of. If it's going to be more expensive, it's quite possible I simply wouldn't take it. But there's also the speed and always-on advantages to weight up against that.

BoneCollector, you're right too, we have to cut through the BS, but unfortunately we have to use a bit of spin ourselves. It's the way things work - they spin, we spin in the opposite direction. Also, I would think that anyone who considers themselves a member is a member. However, registration is better, because we can count people who have registered. And use the numbers as a stick to beat Eircom with.

adam

jd

Originally posted by BoneCollector

(what are eircom gonna doo cut everyone off!?)

The billing system automatically cuts you off-no one "manually "cuts you off any more..
jd

Bard

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»

---

Originally posted by NeilF

IrelandOffline is about three things, which you'll find on the web page. It is entirely conceivable for someone to avail of some ADSL product from Eircom and still support our goals. To make it out to be some sort of treachery is daft. This is not an anti-Eircom association.

---

how can you think that, it underminds our cause to take such a bad offer, its saying, as per ususal, were not united and were going to take it.

Have a look at the objectives page on our web site. What NeilF said, as quoted by you, «Bo§ton», is absolutely correct. So when you ask "how can you think that?" - he can think it ... because it's true.

We should be focused on getting the services in place first of all - only then can we effectively campaign on pricing issues. Complaining about the cost of a non-existant product is ridiculous! Let's GET ADSL first - THEN worry about the price.

Dustaz

A couple of things.

First, Boston, dont tell me when and how i post, just because i try to correct the wild roumor and speculation that seems to be rife amongst folk like yourself doesnt mean that i am working against Ioffls cause.

Secondly, Ioffl have a committee who i fully support. We elected them and re-elected them. They do a fine job. To date, the things that have got Ioffl the most publicity and impact have been things that they have organised and co-ordinated. If we were to rely solely on ideas that cropped up on this forum, we would be doing time for petrol bombing eircoms hq. Good ideas do crop on the forum, unfortunatly so do stupid ones like witholding payment from eircom for an illegal length of time.

Thirdly, for as long as i can remember now i have been thinking "God, i wish i had DSL or Cable". Before Ireland Offline was set up my fingers were black and blue from ringing, writing and e-mailing NTL, Eircom and Esat in the hope of garnering information. When this forum was set up , one of my first posts was about DSL. Ive waited for this service and i FULLY defend my right to pay for it. YES, the price is ridiculous, YES the cap is unbelievable and YES i subscribed to it. This is BECAUSE i talked big about it, i want ADSL and im willing to pay for it.

In between bouts of 'sitting on my backside and doing nothing', i managed to attend the odd Ireland Offline meeting and at one the ethos was loud and clear "Service first, Price second". Now that we have it (and personally i think that Ireland Offline helped in bringing DSL to at least some areas of Dublin) We can work on getting the price down and a wider coverage of the country.


Finally, I dont pay eircom by DD, i pay most of my bills over the internet (suprise surprise). Cancel your DD's all you want, but to tell you guys the truth, if you REALLY want to make a statement - Cancel your Eircom account. Then you wont have to pay them at all.

dahamsta

Cancel your Eircom account.

Oh gods, if only that was an option...

adam

Macker

"Good ideas do crop on the forum, unfortunatly so do stupid ones like witholding payment from eircom for an illegal length of time. "

what's up with you and your legal ,illeagl BS and that's what it is pure and simple BS, read the post ,reread the f*cker if you have to but don't misquote it,

"In between bouts of 'sitting on my backside and doing nothing"

you can whistle that through your ass cause it's true,

"but to tell you guys the truth, if you REALLY want to make a statement - Cancel your Eircom account. Then you wont have to pay them at all."

Amen Brother.

Macker

Boston

Dustaz
First, if I cared how you posted on this forum, you would have heard about it along time ago. I will say, you tend (from what ive seen) to have an aggressive attitude to wards people. Were all meant to be friends here.

Second, your story, ive lived it myself, as have many others here.

Third, I have canceled my eircom account; I only pay them cps charges.
There’s a big difference between paying eircom £100 directly and paying them £30 connection fees. Not much but if every one here did the same it would hit them harder then you think, we don’t need to defeat eircom just get them to move a little.

Bard, I see your point. Any broadband service could start the ball rolling, and lead to better things, and I expect that business users have to do what they have to do, get their priorities straight.

angryuser

To put this whole argument into proper perspective, I hope ? I would suggest that everybody (all 2000 +) sign up for Spirit ?
When Esat gave me the boot, I signed up for Eircom again, BUT I signed up with Spirit for ALL calls everywhere, except local calls.
This means I get Eircom internet (regretably) on their low call number, but every other call, on both phones, get paid to Spirit.
So, my bill from Eircom is VERY small, and they get less money from me than they normally would. If EVERYBODY did this, it is legal and WOULD hit Eircom, for sure. As an aside my telephone bills have dropped dramatically as the Spirit prices are almost incredibly low !!! (Half hour to the USA for a few pence, etc:)
Come on everybody, give it a shot ??