Msg to all Capitalists and Rightists

Chaos-Engine

Why do you all assume that if some one is Anti-Capitalist or Anti-Globalist or Anti-American that they support Communism?

Why do u alll defend the wrongs of Capitalism with the wrongs of Communism?

Most Anti-Capitlaists and Anti-Globalist Lefties do not support the ideals of Communism and would probably know alot more of its evils than your average Capitalist Right winger...


Just some short Qs that get my goat...

I'll be interested to hear why so many of u use this Capitlaism Vs Communism car as if its an issue... Just because i don't like Capitlaism doesn't mean i like Communism any more!!

tools

Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho.

DadaKopf

It's just too easy. If you want to blacken someone's opinions in this regard, you just call him a Communist and then add on: "of course, Marx didn't take human nature into account so obviously you're wrong and stupid". Hardly anyone knows the ins and outs of communism or mature-Marxism as much as they haven't a clue about the foundations of modern capitalism.

I don't hear anyone say: "Well obviously John Rawls' theory of justice is intruiging but he didn't take human nature into account, he's way too theoretical", even though he pretty much has set the neo-liberal/social-democratic agenda since the mid 1970s [his book: A Theory of Justice].

It's just cultural slight to call someone an anti-capitalist and infer that they're in favour of communism when everyone really just wants a readjustment of fairness and an international code of justice - and to see that followed through.

It's ust down to plain ignorance [something which both sides has a lot of].

Shinji

I'm amused by your Rawls reference, and indeed your constant references in other threads to various socio-political thinkers and economists. Your apparent belief that those who are not aware of the work of various obscure economists are "ignorant" is the very height of intellectual arrogance. Still, it's rather funny, in a Nathan Barley-esque way

As to the Communism issue; obviously not every anti-capitalist is a communist, but rather a lot of them are. There are a hell of a lot of them who don't know what they are, in fact; muddled thinking and "smash the state" rhetoric is the order of the day. A hell of a lot of angry, directionless people get classed under the banner of "anti-capitalism" and "anti-globalisation"...

Aspro

Originally posted by DadaKopf
It's just cultural slight to call someone an anti-capitalist and infer that they're in favour of communism when everyone really just wants a readjustment of fairness and an international code of justice - and to see that followed through

"Anti-globalisation" would be a more appropriate term for the people who have travelled to protest at the G8 summits rather than "anti-capitalist". To be anti-capitalist would infer that you are completely against the capitalist system, as I am. To be anti-anything you have to be pro-something. The movement as a whole is against the injustices of our society but they don't have a consolidated idea as to what to replace it with. Most of the protesters have come from diverse environmental, trade union and single issue campaigns. One of the largest of these groups is ATTAC who advocate a tax on speculative wealth as a means to sharing wealth worldwide. This is fantasy land.

The common denominator of most of the protestors is that they are under the mistaken impression that capitalism can be made nicer - "a readjustment of fairness and an international code of justice". People often use the phrase "nice idea but it'll never work" to describe socialism. That phrase is a lot more applicable to the ideas of reformism espoused by many in the anti-globalisation movement.

Reformism is doing things by half measures. Concessions can be won by confronting the powers that be but these are always clawed back at another stage. People like Salvador Allende learned that the hard way in Chile in 1973 when his government nationalised some of the US companies based there to provide badly needed income for health, education and other services in this poor South American country. In a vicious CIA backed coup the infamous General Pinochet took power and was responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of innocent Chileans.

It is patently obvious that world leaders, the ruling classes, are not even prepared to give the slightest concessions at this period in time. Just look at the viciousness with which peaceful protestors have been attacked in Gothenburg, Genoa etc. by state forces intent on using any means to defend their system - including using live ammunition. It goes to show that "democracy" only exists so long as the masses of ordinary people do not complain, do not come into conflict with the interests of the bosses, multinationals and their puppets in government.

Originally posted by Shinji
As to the Communism issue; obviously not every anti-capitalist is a communist, but rather a lot of them are. There are a hell of a lot of them who don't know what they are, in fact; muddled thinking and "smash the state" rhetoric is the order of the day. A hell of a lot of angry, directionless people get classed under the banner of "anti-capitalism" and "anti-globalisation"...

This is true and a good point. It will be the undoing of the movement if a cohesive plan of action is not formed. Even along the lines of strategy and tactics no unified demands have been put forward - this boils down to a desire to maintain "diversity" within the movement. This lack of structure which should very importantly include proper stewarding of marches has led to the street battles scenario where peaceful protestors are getting beaten into submission, people are being arrested and held without charge and one person has been killed...so far.


It's like a football team where every player is doing their own thing and playing in opposite directions. The muddled make-up of reformists and ultra-lefts in the form of the "Black Bloc" gives the media great propaganda to use against the movement, i.e. "they're all violent hooligans bent on destruction" etc. and turns ordinary people away from the real reasons behind the protests.

In the aftermath of the WTC attack anti-terrorist legislation can be used to criminalise anyone who opposes the way the world is run and can be used to diffuse and destroy the movement. This cannot be allowed to happen. People who are opposed to the continued destruction of the planet and the alienation of ordinary people will come to realise this.

Greed for profit and the exploitation of the many by the few are the cornerstones of capitalism. To change society capitalism has to be removed and replaced by a humane and fair system where resources are socialised - the ownership and control of a planned economy by the masses of ordinary people, not by a rich elite. This has nothing to do with the bureaucratic Stalinism of the former Soviet Union, China, Cuba etc. which is always misnomered as "communism".

For up to date reports on the anti-globalisation movement check out the site of the Socialist Party's sister organisation in Britain:http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/opposeTheIMF.htm

Shinji

Greed for profit and the exploitation of the many by the few are the cornerstones of capitalism. To change society capitalism has to be removed and replaced by a humane and fair system where resources are socialised - the ownership and control of a planned economy by the masses of ordinary people

This will never, ever happen until the human race attains a stage of development where we have enough resources for everyone to have anything they want. Even at that point, it may not be possible; basic human desire is very, very potent.

You cannot have a political or economic system which does not reward ambition, intelligence, entrepreneurism and creativity; to do so is to demoralise your people. You cannot have a system without a ladder, because to remove the ladder is to remove the incentive to improve.

Those who advocate socialism and the end of capitalism are often great economists, but invariably terrible sociologists and even worse as psychologists. The world is not governed by the forces of economics, it is governed by the forces within the human mind; a point which is utterly ignored by the system advocated by you and others like you.

Capitalism is here to stay. It's not going to go away, or change; it's been a basic part of human life for thousands of generations, and will remain such for the foreseeable future. Efforts on the part of protestors are best aimed at sensible proposals for making the current system more fair and protecting the civil rights of people from governmental intrusion, rather than attempting to force through massive societal changes which will frankly never happen.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Shinji

Efforts on the part of protestors are best aimed at sensible proposals for making the current system more fair and protecting the civil rights of people from governmental intrusion, rather than attempting to force through massive societal changes which will frankly never happen.

Back to alittle Capitalism... Start high and compremise

Zebedee

Msq to all capitalists and rightists? rightists? do us all a favour and read what George Orwell wrote about Marxist jargon.

Augmerson

George Orwell once wrote a book called "1984".

It is, his interpretation of the horrors of Stalinist Russia. In the book, there is no end to the regime-it lasts forever presumably.

Some say that the real "1984" has come and gone, in the form of the USSR and the eastern bloc. And while it wasnt as bad as Orwell imagined, another equally sinister "1984" looms over us all. Just as Shinji said-Capitalism is here to stay. For good. We cannot hope for an end.

But I dream. Its all I can do.

tools

You cannot have a political or economic system which does not reward ambition, intelligence, entrepreneurism and creativity;

Yes you can, it's called monarchy. Fat syphilis ridden leeches sitting in palaces built with slave labour. The queen has a billion pounds of unearned wealth. What ambition, intelligence, entrepreneurism or creativity has she ever displayed? Corporations and the super rich are the new monarchy and capitalism as we know it, like monarchism before it, will overreach itself and collapse.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by tools

Corporations and the super rich are the new monarchy and capitalism as we know it, like monarchism before it, will overreach itself and collapse.

Lets keep r fingers crossed and give it alittle push

DadaKopf

I honestly don't agree with the opinion that reformism is impossible and, according to the Socialist Worker party among others, undesirable at the outset.

History has shown that so-called socialist and communist revolutions have failed. Classically in Russia, you had a voluntarist intellectual elite (not proletariat) which, when in power, didn't want to relinquish it. Similarly in China, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea etc., so called revolutionary socialism settled into mere perversions of themselves. They became constrictive orthodoxies. To me, it's clear that if any movement is to create a truly democratic system, it'll have to occur within a democratic process. Dialogue or dialectic or whatever you want - openness and honesty, is essential for the betterment of our communal lives. I don't believe in 'smashing the system' and replacing it - people simply won't be able to relate to it. As I've said before, rule number one for the establishment of a legitimate state entity is for the society to understand and accept it. Jacobin democracy in the 18th century simply didn't work in the long term - extreme militarism and 'forcing people to be free' simply didn't fly, it was totalitarian democracy. Similarly, in this day and age, we all know it's foolish to foist Western-style democracies on countries such as Iran, Uganda, Nigeria, Afghanistan - they simply have entirely different values and conceptions of the world.

Which leads me to my second point: political systems are also cultural systems. They are conceived, created and lived within this cultural soup called society. Humans don't react well to unfamiliarity. People don't accept alien systems whether they're internally or externally imposed. On a state level, all areas of that body must be viewed as legitimate by that society. As such, international pluralism is the only viable option for this globalised world.

I'm also critical of the movement being called 'Anti-Globalisation' when the largest organisation of its type is called 'Globalise Resistance' [for the fact fans: the name and slogan 'think globally, act locally' was coined by Pete Seeger, the American folk singer, in the 70s]. Technology today has made globalisation a reality and since the enlightenment, probably a necessary point of evolution for us. It is our lived reality. The 'movement' uses globalisation as its engine. Rather, the movement is against global corporatism which is an entirely different thing. The movement is about justice and fairness and is also not classically 'anti-capitalist'. It's diverse, yes, and sometimes this is its strength. States protect themselves by identifying aggressors, labelling them, isolating them and attacking them if neccessary. If this identity can be disrupted through many varying one-issue groups, states will find it more difficult to extinguish the voices of dissent.

Nevertheless, I agree that basic objectives must be decided on if the movement is to progress and succeed. This is where dialogue comes in - it simply isn't happening. Comments and speeches are made at meetings but the analysis is scattered and parshly directionless. A convincing set of objectives must be arrived at through dialogue and should not under any circumstances be the creedo of the Socialist Workers. It must be the result of the aggregation of all the groups' desires followed by rigourous analysis not of what is is desired but is just.

Digi_Tilmitt

I'm anti-capitalist but I'm also a Communist. Perhaps I am only Communist so as to give an answer to Capitalism.

JustHalf

Excellent, Digi_Tilmitt, excellent. How is it a good answer?

neuro-praxis

Capitalism (while I live in the midst of its benefits) isn't ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but what are the alternatives? All other economic systems (in realistic terms) are less than palatable.

That said, I don't see how we can say for definite that capitalism is here to stay. Perhaps not our generation, but several generations before us, have proved time and again that social reform is possible, and not only possible, but extremely powerful.

I don't sit dreaming of the day when capitalism comes crashing down, and I'm no socialist, but I am a supporter of the likes of Naomi Klein (No Logo) and do feel that a revolution of sorts may occur in the next twenty years or so - when people become more aware of the effects that advertising has had on their lives.

Sharkey

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Why do you all assume that if some one is Anti-Capitalist or Anti-Globalist or Anti-American that they support Communism?

Waaaiiiiit! Why do you assume that someone who criticises Anti-Capitalist or Anti-Globalist or Anti-American is a capitalist or rightest?

Why do u alll defend the wrongs of Capitalism with the wrongs of Communism?

Well, I don't defend the wrongs of "capitalism", but capitalism is an ideal...perhaps a model. Only people can do "wrong" per se.

Most Anti-Capitlaists and Anti-Globalist Lefties do not support the ideals of Communism and would probably know alot more of its evils than your average Capitalist Right winger...

My experience has been to the contrary, but whatever!

I'll be interested to hear why so many of u use this Capitlaism Vs Communism car as if its an issue... Just because i don't like Capitlaism doesn't mean i like Communism any more!!

Now the really, really great thing is that you can vote with your feet ... move to a capitalist or socialist or communist or dictatorship or anarchical society. As a capitalist-loving, freedom-loving sort, I respect your right to make your own decision.

Digi_Tilmitt

Originally posted by JustHalf
Excellent, Digi_Tilmitt, excellent. How is it a good answer?

I'd say a country goverened by a very left but not Communist party would be the best form of goverment for now.

bonkey

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Why do you all assume that if some one is Anti-Capitalist or Anti-Globalist or Anti-American that they support Communism?

Why do u alll defend the wrongs of Capitalism with the wrongs of Communism?

We all are not guilty of this. There are those who question the "anti-capitalists" without implying or assuming they are communists.

We do not all defend the wrongs of capitalism with the wrongs of communism.

Many do, perhaps even most, but some do not.

Just some short Qs that get my goat...

It gets my goat that you can accuse people of making unfair generalisations while phrasing the question as an unfair generalisation.

Look to why you phrased the question the way you did, and perhaps you will find that you have answered it..

jc

JustHalf

Originally posted by Digi_Tilmitt
I'd say a country goverened by a very left but not Communist party would be the best form of goverment for now.

I thought Communism was the answer.

Aspro

Ah leave poor Digi alone. He just needs to do a bit more reading to round out his ideas. We all have to start somewhere, don't we?

tHE vAGGABOND

I'd say a country goverened by a very left but not Communist party would be the best form of goverment for now

Never happen, not in my or your lifetime.

There is no leftist party of note over here. That party will never be Labour or the Socialist/Socialist Workers. Its not the greens and its not Sinn Fein (altho Sinn Fein looked like filling that gap before Sept 11, not quite so sure now)

It would also go against most things that make most people Irish, the nod and the wink, rip off the tourist or set up a business attitude that we have more than lots of countries. Like it or not thats who we are.

Sharkey

Originally posted by bonkey


We all are not guilty of this. There are those who question the "anti-capitalists" without implying or assuming they are communists.

It gets my goat that you can accuse people of making unfair generalisations while phrasing the question as an unfair generalisation.

Respectfully, I know that not all of you are guilty of making generalizations. My point was more Rhetorical -- answering a flawed question with the same form of flaw in order to expose the flaw.

I.e., I made the generalizations deliberately, in response to like generalizations. There is both irony and (I thought) a bit of humour in this approach.

I find it interesting that you complain about my generalization while letting the original generalization go unanswered (at least at first.)

Sharkey

Originally posted by Digi_Tilmitt


I'd say a country goverened by a very left but not Communist party would be the best form of goverment for now.

Gee -- no "worker's paradise" for you?

I am shocked!

WhiteWashMan

and what, prey tell, is wrong with capitalism?

what makes communism, or socialism a better answer?

why should i share what i earn?
im happy with a system that allows me to take from those who are stupid and dull witted.

socalism is for the weak. weak in mind, weak in ability.
its for people who want to be given things. not for people who want to go and earn what they want.

Magwitch

While there are many good points above the ones at the crux of the matter are the anti vs pro ones.

The fact is that organisations such as Socialist worker, N17 and RAF are the the ones leading and organising anti-globilisation protests on the ground. These self same organisations are Anti-capitolist.

This assumes that if one is a supporter of capitolism but abhore the direction of new Globalism, that you are not welcome without subscribing to a marxist ideal. If one attends such a meeting or gathering one will be addressed by speakers chosen by the afore mentioned organisations and listen to content which leans towards their core beliefs. Stand shoulder to shoulder with them in Genoa and see if the police and media view you any differently than the guy beside you throwing rocks and petrol bombs.

The Anti-Globilisation movement has allowed itself to be usurped by better organised an more radical interest groups for whom globalism and capiltolism are completely inseperable (which they are not). The Anti-Globalism movement failed to deliver any core idealism beyond the initial message. What are they PRO exactly? The negitivity of the message has allowed its dilution and the only alternative offered by the broad movement was (you guessed it) the communist one. Not because that was the intention, but simply the result. At best they can be accussed of being naive, at worst cherlish.

Perhaps rather than rant about how bad capilotism and globalism is some people would put forward their own alternative. To be honest I hate (and I do not use the word lightly) Marxists/Communists, and have good reason too. But at least they have an opinion and belief which they will stand by, so I can respect them. Others do not. Negitivity is the easiest thing in the world to be - its not a movement or a valid opinion when pre-offered by it self without a counter argument. All change requires a level of debate, and one cannot debate if one brings nothing to the table. So, choose a side or get a creative opinion - or go the way of the Anti-Glabalist message (i.e. going nowhere);)

Slydice

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=31452

Digi_Tilmitt

Originally posted by Aspro
Ah leave poor Digi alone. He just needs to do a bit more reading to round out his ideas. We all have to start somewhere, don't we?

Awwwwwwwww.........thanks.

Yes I must start somewhere. I have read a few comme books such as:The Russian revolution and the origins of present day Communism.

I do my best and I'm a bit confused about what I am at the moment, but I'll fix myself up!

Chaos-Engine

well actually Magwitch there are lots of alternatives... All the Anti-Capitalist and Anti-Gloabalists have different agendas... the one thing they have in common is what they don't want(Capitalism and Globalisation of Corporations) They r not against the Globalisation of communication and inclusion...

ATTAC - "Tax on speculation that would cancel WORLD not just 3rd world debt within 3 years at only 0.001%"
Pro-Choice
Civil Liberties groups
Trade Unions
Anti-War Campaigners
etc etc.... I am not very resourceful but i am sure others such as Dadakopf can provide many more examples...

Basically the media(Multinaitonal controlled media) paints all teh protesters as communists cause every sane capitalist likes to go on a Witch hunt and "Burn the Reds"...

Augmerson

I used to support Socialism. I saw it as the only choice to a system that was destroying Humanity, eroding away our souls. I can see in my head, images of poor people begging on the streets of Dublin.

Ive been coming and going to Dublin for years, most of my family live there. I always noticed the poor. I always felt sorry. Felt guilty. I would ask my sister for some money to give to them. Upon reflection, it was perhaps to ease my guilt about not being able to help them really.

Its now 2001. Maybe its me, but the poor, the homeless, they seem to have multiplied. Maybe they were always there. If the Human race cannot unite as a whole, and come up with some way of running the show, then I can say we are truely a spent force. If not Socialism, think of something else. Surely of the 6 Billion souls on Earth we could think of something thats fairer?

Socialism
Capitalism
Something Else?

I choose Something else.

**** whats the topic again?

DeVore

I'm an employer. I employ 12 people in total.
In some people's eyes that makes me evil right from the get go.
I'm exploiting the working man (or some such studenty pinko liberal crypto fassciiieeeiiist arsé.)

I am so sick of hearing the SWF and the SWP and the feckin Peoples Front Of Judia (dont EVEN go there people!) bang on like they have any desire except to some day be the top dog.

Frankly, most of them have the deep down political staying power of Dana. As soon as they graduate or indeed discover that daddies beemer can pull chicks they'll drop their scruffy causes and take a cushy job.

The one thing I like about capitalistic b4stards is that you *know* what they are doing it for, which makes them more predictable and hence modelable. Once you can model something you can be comfortable with it.

Frankly, the loony left are way to unstable to be allowed into power.

We locked ourselves into capitalism the day some féckin slop-head caveman conceived of barter.

"Democracy, its the worst system, apart from all the rest".
It isnt the system thats evil, its just people who are evil.

DeVore.

Sharkey

Originally posted by DeVore
I'm an employer. I employ 12 people in total. ... As soon as they graduate or indeed discover that daddies beemer can pull chicks they'll drop their scruffy causes and take a cushy job.

What??? Are you saying that there's some relationship between wealth and getting laid? Tell me it ain't true! As Michael Douglass character of Gordon Gekko would say to Daryl Hanna after a bout of the old in-out-in-out "Greed is good"

The one thing I like about capitalistic b4stards is that you *know* what they are doing it for, which makes them more predictable and hence modelable. Once you can model something you can be comfortable with it.

Self-Interest can be a powerful motivator.

...We locked ourselves into capitalism the day some féckin slop-head caveman conceived of barter.

He was probably looking to get laid too ... at the expense of the working Neanderthal. That's why they're extinct.