Would you take part in the proposed IrelandOffline BLACKOUT ?

Bard

Question as in the topic:

Would you take part in the proposed IrelandOffline BLACKOUT?

( see dahamsta's thread for more info. on this proposal: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32149 )

[EDIT:] I VOTE... YES!!!

kamobe

I'm a relatively heavy user, but only for personnal reasons....
I would have no problem participating in any such event, and i think it's a great idea.

Spread the word folks, and let's hope this takes off

Kairo

C'mon everyone! Lets show them what we're made of!

logic1

I'd definately participate and as I posted on the other thread I have several sites which have agreed to take down their pages to be replaced with an IOFFL info page for the weekend.

.logic. adsless@eircom.net

azezil

It'll be hard but i'll try

SkepticOne

Yes

Straker

A definite YES. 'Nuff said.

Panda

Great idea dahamsta, i said yes. :cool:

Bard

Wow... pretty resounding "YES!" so far...

Folks, - if you're voting, please post too, if you don't mind. If you're going to say "No" - it'd be nice to hear the reasons why not.

This is only a suggestion/request, of course. Feel free to keep your preference secret if necessary... :rolleyes:

Ivan

A definite YES!

Anytime, any place, for as long as needed.

Boston

Yes but not the weekend,

PiE

Certainly, I've no qualms about saving money.

chern0byl

i voted no, but if it goes ahead, then im with you.

dahamsta

Certainly, I've no qualms about saving money.

Pie, if this goes ahead, that quote is going on the website.

i voted no, but if it goes ahead, then im with you.

Which begs the question: Why did you vote no?

adam

kendragon

OH hell thats a big YES from me, Its about time that this country's Government and Telecomunications realised that we are deadly serious about what we want.

pete

ahh sad as it sounds, it'd kill me to stay away from the modren interweb for a day - but you got a yes from me.

Obviously weekends make most sense for a residential boycott - or am i the only one who stays online for most of Sunday? - but would also be the hardest...

hrmm

Urban Weigl

HECK YES, of course! At the very least, our voice will certainly be heard louder than before. I'm sure it'll also be good for PR, and will hopefully get some press.

Dangger

Yes, absolutley!

dahamsta

The response is fantastic - certainly more than I was expecting - but although I appreciate honesty, I'm having difficulty understanding the logic behind voting not to take part. Not being able to is fine, as is a maybe vote, but actually refusing to take part? Why? Can anyone who voted this way explain why to me? Is it on religious grounds or something? (Just kidding!)

No flaming now folks, everyone should have a say. I just want to make sure nobody is misunderstanding what I'm proposing here.

adam

phreak

i'm in!

Dont be at yourself

I think this is fantastic - if it takes off (and signs are great so far) we could really show Eircom that we're not prepared to just lie down. I'm personally willing to go weeks without the internet if it helps our cause.

Well played dahamsta and co - you're doing a great job

disConnected

Yes! Yes! And Yes!

No, I only voted once ...

But I am definitely in. Let's show them how serious we are about getting things going....

disConnected

byte

I'm definitely up for it. Seems like a good idea. But we need more people to follow suit. C'mon people.:D

Macker

In

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well.. I *would* vote yes... but I moved my comp up here to galway with me and I don't have any outside access with it at all... there's a phone in my room but only for incoming calls.

the only net i get is from the comps in the college... but,in keeping with the spirit of the blackout, I will try not to go online for the weekend

dahamsta

Well, that's fair enough, but you can still vote "yes" Mordeth, you can still take part. Print up some flyers and distribute them around the college. Do posters and stick 'em on the notice boards.

Here's one where you can really chance yer arm - lobby the college to take their website down for the weekend, or support the protest in some other way. Point out to them how much the student population of Ireland would benefit from flat-rate and broadband access to the Internet. If you don't want to do it on your own, stick up posters now asking for help.

C'mon folks, am I the only one coming up with ideas here? You're an intelligent bunch, set those minds to work!

adam

hmmm

I voted no. You wanted to hear my reasoning - any snotty replies to this will be ignored Sorry for sounding so negative with these I know how hard everyone is trying to come up with ideas.

1. Not using the internet for 1 out of 365 days will not hurt Eircom in any meaningful sense.
2. I haven't seen a huge PR impact from other groups worldwide who tried this. How do we measure it. "A group of users say they're not going to use the internet for a day, bohoohoo".
3. I'm not willing to do this on a weekend, as it's the only time I have flat rate (ntl) and generally the only time I have to update my site (50,000 visitors a month), talk to my online friends, search the job sites etc. If it was held on a weekday when I didn't use the net at home, then it's all a bit fake on my part isn't it.

If we were to do something, I'd like to see something significant that would really *hurt* Eircom.

I've suggested
- boycott advertisers accepting Eircom ads

Others might be
- boycott eircom.net & indigo - I don't see why any supporter of IOFFL cannot use a competing product
- flood their customer support and advice lines with queries requiring answers.
- prevent Eircom users from accessing our websites (as I believe suggested by Tom Murphy). Alternatively redirect for 30 seconds to another page setting out our grievances.
- challenge each and every public statement made by Eircom - be it in seminars, on websites or in the media.
- change your telephone provider to someone, anyone, else.

I think at the root of it I just consider this an innefectual protest which will hurt me more than Eircom.

dahamsta

I voted no. You wanted to hear my reasoning - any snotty replies to this will be ignored Sorry for sounding so negative with these I know how hard everyone is trying to come up with ideas.

Thanks for posting hmmm, it's appreciated. I don't want to attack or flame anyone (and I'm sure Bard will stomp hard on anyone who does, because this pair of threads is focusing nicely), I'm just curious as to why some people refuse (as against not being able) to take part, because I want to make sure there are no misconceptions that can't be cleared up with a bit of simple dialogue. And I think your posting proves that that can happen. (And I'm not being snotty when I say that.)

1. Not using the internet for 1 out of 365 days will not hurt Eircom in any meaningful sense.

It certainly won't hurt them financially in any meaningful sense, I'll grant you that - although it might put them a wee bit out of pocket on the day - but money isn't all Eircom is concerned with, and it's certainly not what I'm concerned with when I make these suggestions, apart from trying to save myself a few quid in the long run. They've spent dozens of millions of pounds building their brand, developing it to make them look like a caring, sharing company that values its customers. We all know that's simply not true, but The Man In The Street isn't as clued-up as us.

Look at their television and magazine advertisments: families hugging and kissing; children playing; happy, smiling faces everywhere. But you're not happy, are you? None of us are, and I would go so far as to say that anyone who has actually had to deal directly with Eircom since their inception - as against just making the phone calls and paying the bills - has had at least one occasion when they've seen the true character of Eircom - an arrogant, greedy, anti-competitive organisation that genuinely doesn't care about anyone only itself.

Our task in this protest isn't to hurt Eircom financially, but to hurt their brand, to make sure people see through the lies and fallacies to the underlying evil core of the organisation. We have to show the people who don't know any better what Eircom are really like. We have to demonstrate that they're not just screwing us: the heavy Internet user, the nerd, the geek, the gamer; but that they're screwing them too: the man in the street, the monthly shopper, the daily email checker, the occasional pleasure surfer.

Let me project a best-case scenario for you. It might not work out like this, but it could, so humour me for a moment. Let's say that on the weekend in question, a fairly large number of people stop using their comms on Friday, and join in on the protest over the weekend, by: cutting back on non-essential calls; using their mobiles as an alternative; removing their websites for the weekend; distributing flyers; pinning posters to notice boards; attending a rally in their city; etc, etc.

All of those will draw attention, but of all of the above, I believe the rallies and the removed websites will have the biggest impact, because the telco's will lie about effects, and play The BLACKOUT down. But rallies and black websites are visual, and I'm pretty certain that if a user *is* surfing the net that day, and they see more than one site removed and replaced with The BLACKOUT page, they'll tell their friends. And the buzz will reach the media, and the media will pick it up. Not just the national media, but also the international tech sites like Slashdot, The Register and Wired.

They love this stuff, and although reaction on sites like The Reg and Wired is limited by the lack of a visible discussion forum, it will be noticed by the national and international communities, it will be picked up on Plastic and in the Delphi forums. And believe me, if you get CmdrTaco to accept an article on the topic on Slashdot, the Open Source and hacker communities will light the board up with cries of support. That's the way the Internet community works, especially when the Honest User is being opressed. And we are being oppressed.

But that's not our ultimate goal, our ultimate goal is bringing this to the attention of the people of Ireland, and so the government of Ireland. And I think that will happen - people will start seeing through the bluff and lies to what Eircom really are, and - and here's the nub - we'll hurt Eircom's brand, and so their lobbying power, because they will have lost respect. The government will realise that the people as an action group are far more powerful than Eircom will ever be, and they'll *have* to stand up for them. And Eircom will have to at least start thinking about complying.

It's democracy hmmmm, it's guaranteed in the Irish Constitution, and better, it's democracy with an approaching election. You have to let the people speak, and if you can, you have to join in, or you have no right to complain.

2. I haven't seen a huge PR impact from other groups worldwide who tried this. How do we measure it. "A group of users say they're not going to use the internet for a day, bohoohoo".

And that's exactly why our protest has to be bigger, better, faster (fnaaar!), more; that's exactly why I've taken all the suggestions - and continuing suggestions - and rolled them into one. The more ways we come up with of protesting on the weekend, the more methods we can provide to comms users, the more they can do, and the bigger effect the protest will have. As long as it's concerted, and not fragmented, it will work.

3. I'm not willing to do this on a weekend, as it's the only time I have flat rate (ntl) and generally the only time I have to update my site (50,000 visitors a month), talk to my online friends, search the job sites etc. If it was held on a weekday when I didn't use the net at home, then it's all a bit fake on my part isn't it.

I have to be snotty here for a second, but I don't mean any personal offense by it, ok? What you said there is endemic of Irish democracy - "I'm not willing". "I'm not willing", "I can't", "I won't", "I don't want to". To be honest with you hmmm, I don't care if that's the only time you have flat-rate Internet access - I don't have it at all. I don't care about your site - I run plenty myself thank you, with a hell of a lot more traffic than you. I don't care about your business - I run my entire business on the Internet.

If you're not willing to make a sacrifice, however small, to better your comms, you don't *deserve* better comms. You have plenty of options open to you, and not using the Internet at the weekend is only one of them, and I've made that *crystal* clear over the last few days. You say you don't want to do it at the weekend, then don't, do it on Friday. You have 50,000 vistors a month? Well then, you're a prime candidate to make an important statement aren't you?

If you can honestly tell me that taking down your site for the weekend, or even a day, is going to put you in an unrecoverable position, then I accept that, that's ok, but protest in another way then. If I haven't come up with something you think viable yet, use one of your own suggestions, and brand it as The Blackout and link to The BLACKOUT site so people know why you're doing it.

But don't say you're not willing, please. Be confident, be optimistic, be upbeat. Get involved, take part, do something. Tell your friends, anything, just *do something*.

I'm not going to go through your suggestions one by one, because they're good, and I respect you for making the effort. But remember, the money we save ourselves and take off Eircom on the day is unimportant, it's a non-entity, I don't care about it. We're trying to hurt Eircom's brand here, we're trying to bring the evil empire down by showing people that they *are* an evil empire. We're telling the government we're not taking it any more, and they have to do something, now.

I hope that wasn't too snotty, genuinely.

adam

hmmm

Thanks a serious reply. You have to draw the distinction between someone who isn't willing to take part in *this*, but will take part in *something else* (I've taken the half day off work for the seminar to help fill the seats etc etc). I'm afraid you're right on one thing - I'm simply not willing to give up the time, now it's Eircom who force me to use the weekend only but there you go. I don't believe we control the number of websites needed to make this effective to non-IOFFL members. I don't believe anyone we are targetting gives two figs what's on slashdot or the register or wired. I don't really believe Eircom will care.

I'm leaving this thread now because my super-ego is just too susceptible to a flamefest at the moment :-7

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Yes,

Blackout All the Way

Just name the day(s);)

GavinJCD

I don't make too many posts here, but I do read the boards almost every day, and I am definitley going to take part in this blackout. Stick it to €ircon, as my friend would say, they are all a bunch of arseholes.

Toast

No.

Why?

I dont think its going to achieve anything.

Eircom has done a LOT of unpopular things in the past and there has been a LOT more media and public backlash than this about other issues (per min billing, min call charges etc). These were things that effected everyone not just internet users and nothing happened and we are still suffering from the effects of them.

They will do what the always do. Stall with words until the media lose interest.

dahamsta

I dont think its going to achieve anything.

So what should we do Toast?

adam

Farls

Just say when and i'd definitley be on for it, get all the net gamers also they'd definitley go for something like this also this is something that would get on the news definitley, remember when the last IOFFL seminar was held cuz the same day the builders held a march thru dublin about the safety on worksites and if i remember correctly there were less than 500 of them and they got some serious news coverage primetime like...the kinda thing that IOFFL needs, i haven't been able to keep upto date with the site in the past few weeks with college and the likes but this is the best thing i could of hoped for to come back too....good idea adam just get the auld cogs turning now...hehe

Farlz

Toast

Originally posted by dahamsta
I dont think its going to achieve anything.

So what should we do Toast?

adam

Ah now I dont recommend asking me that.
But too late.

Well im all for getting a REALLY powerful radio transmitter and playing Whitney Houston's "My Love is your love" at ear bleeding volume over all frequencys until it drives the entire nation insane and they all descend on Eircom offices everywhere with pitchforks and torches.

But seriously if its going to work you have to make the ENTIRE country take part. It cant focus on the internet angle of things.
You must have every county involved. Ever Business and every residential user up in arms and not using their phones or mobiles etc. And Huge Anti Eircom Parades! Name it national No Eircom Day. Have people burning their share certs on the streets and wearing anti eircom t-shirts. Then the Gods will notice!

I'll probably be told that Im being stupid and not taking this seriously but in reality if you do anything less than this It will not make any difference.
Never EVER do something by halves.

dahamsta

But seriously if its going to work you have to make the ENTIRE country take part. It cant focus on the internet angle of things.
You must have every county involved. Ever Business and every residential user up in arms and not using their phones or mobiles etc. And Huge Anti Eircom Parades! Name it national No Eircom Day. Have people burning their share certs on the streets and wearing anti eircom t-shirts. Then the Gods will notice! I'll probably be told that Im being stupid and not taking this seriously but in reality if you do anything less than this It will not make any difference. Never EVER do something by halves.

I'm not going to tell you you're stupid, but I am going to tell you you're being unrealistic and you're daydreaming. I'm a daydreamer as well, I'd love The BLACKOUT to be that big, that effective. But I'm also a realist, and I know with absolute certainty that what you suggest can't and won't happen.

But I'll give you your say, because that's what IrelandOffline is all about. Please tell us - exactly how would you go about what you suggest?

adam

Toast

Originally posted by dahamsta

I'm not going to tell you you're stupid, but I am going to tell you you're being unrealistic and you're daydreaming. I'm a daydreamer as well, I'd love The BLACKOUT to be that big, that effective. But I'm also a realist, and I know with absolute certainty that what you suggest can't and won't happen.

But I'll give you your say, because that's what IrelandOffline is all about. Please tell us - exactly how would you go about what you suggest?

adam

Time and Money.

Trojan

I'll do what little I can.

If we need to go to the pub to discuss this, count me in!

-- I'd like to see a reply from a boards admin as to what they're going to do with this site

-- For people who are worried about taking completely offline what about a "Blackout-light" with a redirection page that redirects to either the IOFFL B/out page or to the moved root of the website (ie http://www.boards.ie/blackout/vbulletin )

Al.

dahamsta

Time and Money.

How long should we wait, and where do we get the money?

adam

Toast

Originally posted by dahamsta
Time and Money.

How long should we wait, and where do we get the money?

adam

I have been led to believe that you have the support of many business men and Ireland Offline is frequently saying how the desire for cheap broadband isnt just for gamers to download CS patches but in the interest of Businesses around the country.
Petition businesses, get backing, raise funds. If it really is in their interest then it shouldnt be too hard to present this as an investment.

Jeeze if it comes to it and you cant get corporations backing you have fundraising CS sessions in webcafes who support the cause.

By time I mean the members of Ireland Offlines time. Its up to someone to put in the effort and time to organise such things.

irishguy

i vote no, because i have a flat rate 512k connection which i pay 4 even if i dont use and i couldnt go the entire weekend without using it.there is not much point in me taking part because i have what ur fighting 4 also i need to use my mobile phone.

G

I think your ideas are great Adam & I shall be taking down my business and 2 personal sites to show my support and replace them with a link the IRLOL site and explanation.

Toast: Time and Money can come in time. This is something that can set the ball rolling and can be built on as peeps catch wind. Adam's right, us Irish need a slap in the face when it comes to stuff like this.

G

Digi_Tilmitt

I will definetly take part.

dahamsta

To everyone who has offered their support, it's very much appreciated, and my apologies for not replying to you all. The situation as it stands is that the committee has contacted me privately to let me know that they are discussing the concept. If they come up with a consensus of support, it will no doubt be announced here.

To irishguy: (Please note that I'm not singling people out to embarass or attack them, just to clarify.) You say you need to use your mobile phone, well, that's fine, no-one's stopping you. The mobile market is competitive, and we're not protesting about that. And of course Eircom no longer has a wireless section to speak of, so you wouldn't be hurting them by using it. In fact, I would encourage people to use their mobiles *instead* of their landlines on the Friday, because it will take traffic off Eircom's network, and hell, let's be honest, I like Digifone, I think they're a good company.

As to your broadband connection, if it's not connected to Eircom's network, I don't care. If it is, how about putting the money issue aside for a day and making a statement? I don't care about money when it comes to this protest, because no matter what we do it'll just be a short blip in Eircom's financial records. But if you make a statement you might injure their brand. And maybe even their pride.

adam

smokin' an'chewin' man

Originally posted by dahamsta
The response is fantastic - certainly more than I was expecting - but although I appreciate honesty, I'm having difficulty understanding the logic behind voting not to take part. Not being able to is fine, as is a maybe vote, but actually refusing to take part? Why? Can anyone who voted this way explain why to me? Is it on religious grounds or something? (Just kidding!)

No flaming now folks, everyone should have a say. I just want to make sure nobody is misunderstanding what I'm proposing here.

adam

I don't see what the point is in taking part in a 'boycott' that is being operated by a tiny fringe of the internet user population in the country, and especially when it is right in the middle of the current tussle between the ODTR and Eircom over broadband.

Also how many of the voters in this poll are surfnolimits and will have no visible affect anyway ? And if there is no visible affact then what is achieved ?

IOFFL has launched brilliantly and peaked with a great seminar. I have been waiting for it's follow up now for many weeks. It looks as if there are no ideas for how to take it forward as a serious pressure group - yet.

However considering the current ODTR/Eircom tussle I would recommend we sit tight now for a few weeks and see how it pans out.

Jumping in like a bunch of nerds - and yes that's what the boycott will LOOK like - will only drag IOFFL's image down to that level. IOFFL's business supporters won't support it. Our political supporters won't support it. Only the hard core activists - valuable and critically important as they are - will do so.

End result - Lots of self congratulations by the activists - - but NO real affect on Eircom; the kind of nerdy publicity about the IOFFL that Eircom will LOVE; creating the kind of image of IOFFL among the public that will cancel out all the work done to date. And IOFFL's image is everything.

I urge people to sit tight for the dust to settle on the current tussle - and then jump in with another initiative such as a business orientated seminar or a public meeting or similar, focussed on the outcome. If the tussle goes the ODTR's way then the spotlight needs to be tightened on Flatrate - if it goes Eircom's way then all the more reason for major action. But trivial and marginal action can be worse than no action.

Yes I know the activists only want cheerleaders, but someone has to put the other side.

angryuser

I voted yes, BUT I have to agree with a lot of what HMMM said. [I seem to be agreeing with him over quite a few things. :-)]
I have gone along with everything so far. Donated a few quid too (although never acknowledged ?) I have lobbied the Minister about the recent FF Parliamentary party meeting. I was asked to write to him. I did. The reply I got back was so bad I felt it sort of summed up lots of things wrong with our country ? My name was incorrectly spelt, my address was incorrect, and the one line reply stated that the contents had been 'noted' !! I have been on several committees trying to 'right' 'wrongs' but I gave up, as it seems nobody cares ? Nobody in 'authority' that is, and as a nation generally we tend to prefer to sit back and 'take all the ****' ?? So, why do I think HMMM is right ? Well right in some of what he said. I do not think it will hurt Eircom, or that the Govt will take the slightest interest. I have been one of Eircom's biggest 'haters' since many, many years ago, and have spent many a time complaining and arguing with senior staff, but at the end of the day they do not care 'one hoot' as they have constantly shown. The only thing that gets real publicity in Ireland, are very large protests by 'whole' communities about the environment or some other significant 'social' aspect of concern. (and good luck to all of them who succeed) but I do not think Eircom, or the Govt, or any other ISP will give a hoot at what is proposed. Sure, the media might take it up, but only in their own interests, and only then if they consider it will sell more papers !! or do their organisation any good. I voted yes, because I believe in protest at injustices, but my experience has shown that 'most' protests fall on deaf ears. ? The only thing that speaks in this country is 'Money' or 'Power' and 'Position' and those that have it don't give a hoot for those that haven't. !! So, I honestly do not believe that anything will be achieved, from what will eventually be a great deal of work by a 'small' band of people.
p.s. I also have to agree somewhat with 'Smokin & Chewin'.. I think he has a point worth considering ??

Block (8

Yup count me in......but damn a whole weekend tho better dust off the cover of that book I have lying somewhere

sceptre

Originally posted by smokin' an'chewin' man

Also how many of the voters in this poll are surfnolimits and will have no visible affect anyway ?

Well, here's one. But if I don't dial up at all for the weekend, Eircom won't be making .4p a minute on the interconnect charge.

IKiigan

I'm voting yes.

To all the people saying it won't hurt Eircom - you are dead wrong. Sure, it won't hurt them financially, but their PR image will take a further battering if all the popular press is reporting of a "boycott of Eircom for 24 hours".

Let's do this boycott thing, and spread word of it far and wide
I wanna see it on The Register, Ireland.com, Boards.ie (duh) and everywhere!

Maybe we could get Esat to mention it on their website too

Stephen

I'm all for it ... I'm one of the ones booted from NoLimits many moons ago

o_donnel_abu

Sorry about length of this post but i am extremely busy work-wise so I've put number of points into one post.

In fairness to other users, if you want to reply to any specific points, please snip out the irrelevant bits


Toast

I dont think its going to achieve anything.

Some people said 4 months ago that setting up IOFFL was a waste of time

Toast

But seriously if its going to work you have to make the ENTIRE country take part. It cant focus on the internet angle of things.

We've been saying for some time that we need to bring the issues into a wider domain than just the IT sector. There's a chicken and egg situation here - although this protest will be IT focussed, it is more than likely to catch the attention of the non-technical media and thus bring the issues to a wider audience.

Toast

Time and Money...I have been led to believe that you have the support of many business men and Ireland Offline is frequently saying how the desire for cheap broadband ...(is)...in the interest of Businesses around the country. .

Couple of things here. First we are a voluntary, part-time body so there is a limit on our time. Further on, you talk about members time - Adam has already put a lot of time into this, we would welcome any input from members who are prepared to take the lead on other things - <hint><hint> .

You're right about 'big' business but despite several attempts by me to involve Small firms Association and IBEC, we haven't been able to generate any great interest. Seeing how things have developed over last few months, I am coming to view that the fact that we are not associated with big business is a plus factor in regards to politicians and media; that is personal view and needs to be debated. One thing that was debated at our public meeting and clearly agreed on was that we would not seek financial support from big business as it could compromise our independence.


dahamsta

The committee has contacted me privately to let me know that they are discussing the concept.

I know you already know this, Adam, but just for the record, I have posted a statement of official support from the committee on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32149&pagenumber=2

Just in case anyone has missed it, there is also an announcement that Adam has now been co-opted as an official member of the IOFFL committee at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32340


smokin' an'chewin' man

I don't see what the point is in taking part in a 'boycott' that is being operated by a tiny fringe of the internet user population in the country

See my reply to Toast above


smokin' an'chewin' man

IOFFL has launched brilliantly and peaked with a great seminar. I have been waiting for it's follow up now for many weeks. It looks as if there are no ideas for how to take it forward as a serious pressure group - yet.

Actually, it's four weeks. Just 'cos we're not discussing things in public doesn't mean we're not doing anything. As outlined in earlier postings, we are focusing on politicians right now; we can't say too much at this stage so please be patient
(Part of the reason for focusing on politicians ties in with your later comments that IOFFl needs to stand back a bit whilst ODTR and Eircom have their Showdown at the OK Corral )


angryuser

Donated a few quid too (although never acknowledged ?)

Apologies for that, angryuser, and anyone else in same position - our admin went bit awry in days leading up to seminar; please email me direct about this.

Martin Harran