What is it about Metal?

Maccattack

OK. Let's get this straight from the start. I am not slagging off metal. I'm genuinely curious.


I bought Megadeths Countdown album this week after hearing a voxless track in a recent guitar mag. i thought it sounded deadly.

I was into metal for a brief period during my teens. Like most kids at the time. Hearing Iron Maidens Run to the hills on the radio made me want to run out and buy a leather jacket and grow my scruffy locks even longer. I couldnt afford the jacket but did get the record.

From there i discovered Black Sabbath and a few others before growing out of it.

That was well over twenty years ago. So besides the odd Motorhead and Slayer gig Ive never really been anywhere near Metal since.

It seems to me - and i could be wrong - that the whole demon thing still holds sway over the bulk of the bands playing metal today.

Whats it all about? Why the fascination with skulls and dungeons and stuff like that?

Whats the point of it? What are they trying to say?


We are tough?
Our friends are skeletons?
We cant wait to die?


I appreciate that a lot of the musicians are very accomplished but the image seems totally pointless to me.

So what you think your scarey. big deal, it seems very juvenille.

At least with Punk there is/was a message in a lot of it.

Please explain. Im totally outside of the genre so probably come across as being ignorant. which i spose i am.

Ag marbh

Yeah it's just like a load of warmhammer fans with guitars.

Punk has the best message

smackbunnybaby

some people dont listen to music, like me they listen to mood.
metal creates this mood - probably the main reason why metal has so many genres

Maccattack

What 'mood'?

pants on fire

There are 2 very different classes of metal fans.

1st you have all the black wearing, pierced to the last, tattooed head, hate your parents, wish i was dead type metal fan.

Then you have the 'ordinary' people you see walking down O'Connell street with their jeans and fairly respectable appearance.

I cant explain the first, cos I'd agree with you there. There just insecure or sumthin.

I'd be the 2nd type. And personally, I think metal bands can be broken down likewise.
The 2nd type of metal band are the one that play heavy, but actuallly good music.

So you just gotta be wary bout the stuff you listen to.
Some metal can blow your mind, but sum is just a load of elephant poo.

Tazz T

Maccattack wrote:

It seems to me - and i could be wrong - that the whole demon thing still holds sway over the bulk of the bands playing metal today.

Whats it all about? Why the fascination with skulls and dungeons and stuff like that?

Whats the point of it? What are they trying to say?


We are tough?
Our friends are skeletons?
We cant wait to die?


I appreciate that a lot of the musicians are very accomplished but the image seems totally pointless to me.

So what you think your scarey. big deal, it seems very juvenille.

Yup. That's about it. Great, isn't it?

I personally think it's very tongue-in-cheek although I realise many don't.

Viewed in the right way, METAL'S great craic!

Doctor J

Punk's message? An ethos it can't possibly live up to? Individuality through conformity?

It's very easy to generalise

Metal lyrics are as diverse as any other. There are plenty of politically orientated bands, plenty of dungeons and dragons types, plenty of doom and gloom, plenty of positivity, plenty of satanic stuff and plenty of christian stuff too. There are subject matters to accomodate every taste, it's just very easy to pick on one aspect of a very broad genre. A lot of it is very tongue in cheek but it's easier to ridicule than understand, as anyone who listens to punk can also verify, that's just the way of the world.

A lot of Metal lyrics do nothing for me, I don't hunt dragons in a mystical forest but that's just me. If they make someone's life a better place then that's fine by me. There is a place for everything.

Maccattack

J

Which Metal bands are political and what slant do they take?

You said " it's just very easy to pick on one aspect of a very broad genre. A lot of it is very tongue in cheek but it's easier to ridicule than understand"

As I said at the start of my post Im not having a go at Metal. Im not picking on it.

And i am generalising. as i said. i bought one Megadeth album. I just dont 'get' the whole demon thing.

Dont they care about the kids they are selling this stuff to. I can see that a lot of the bands are very talented players, shouldnt that be enough to get people interested? and wouldnt it be better if they were telling the disilusioned kids some positive stuff?

OK, so there are some bands that do that. fair enough, but im asking why the bands that get photographed on thrones drinking out of a skull do this?

Ag marbh

Doctor J wrote:

Punk's message? An ethos it can't possibly live up to? Individuality through conformity?

If you fail to realise that punk carries a better progressive message than any other genre you must be blind. I'm not talking about pop punk either.

Doctor J

Ag marbh, you should probably read my entire post again. means I'm not being entirely serious, perhaps making an in-joke, you know that sort of thing, to make a point.

Maccattack, I'm probably the wrong person to enlighten you on the whole skull and throne thing, since it does nothing for me either, but I still believe Metal is a big enough genre to accomodate that sort of stuff as well as lyrical content which does bear real relevance to people's lives, from the Megadeth album you have there I'd suggest a closer look at the lyrics to Foreclosure Of A Dream, Countdown To Extinction and Ashes In Your Mouth for example. The lyrics tend to be a little more dressed up than the more direct approach often taken in punk (when punk is really being punk ). Other bands who've had a political slant, off the top of my head, Anthrax, RATM, Corrosion Of Conformity, Living Colour, Suicidal Tendenies, Leeway, Kreator, there are loads and loads, though thankfully a lot of them diversify their lyrical subjects and many include the whole fantasy thing too. TBH I think that's a good thing. I don't think lyrics need to be of a political nature to be valid or to have positive meaning to an individual. people get different things from music and lyrics and what can read as nonsensical garbage to one can really strike a chord with another, eye of the beholder and all that

Ancient1

And don't forget the mighty Barney Greenway, the greatest social commentator in metal today, imo.

Doctor J

Indeed, Barney.

It's a shame metal and punk are getting so polarised when they share a lot of the same roots and inspirations, just choose slightly different ways to express what it is they want to say.

Ancient1

I remember a couple of years ago both Lemmy and Barney used to write a monthly column for a german metal magazine. At a time when so many bands were bickering over bullsh1t, reading their articles really was a breath of fresh air. Both of them are incredibly articulate and intelligent.

Ag marbh

I do agree metal and punk share some similar sounds but in other way's they are a million miles apart.

Sorry Doctor J. Im in work and my replies are rushed!

superconor

Why wouldnt anyone want songs about dungeons and dragons?

Heavy Metal Or No Metal At ALL! Death To False Metal! Fell The Power Of My Sword!

Ancient1

Finally a voice of reason!

Thanks superconor!

Doctor J

Ag marbh wrote:

I do agree metal and punk share some similar sounds but in other way's they are a million miles apart.

Sorry Doctor J. Im in work and my replies are rushed!

No problem

I mean, personally I can't see where metal ends and punk begins and vice versa. I remember D.R.I.'s gig in McGonagles way back, it was about 50% long hair and 50% spiked hair... it was just beautiful

For me the two styles are so close to each other at times it mystifies me why there is sometimes such a huge division between the two groups of listeners.

Good music > bad music : they're the only two kinds of music there is :cool:

cournioni

Doctor J wrote:

Good music > bad music : they're the only two kinds of music there is :cool:

Define good and bad music Doc...

Doctor J

Good music sounds good and bad music sounds bad

cournioni

All down to the individuals opinion I think you are trying to say...

Doctor J

Ph3n0m

except for Death - who just are plain good anyway

Ruaidhri

Maccattack wrote:

OK. Let's get this straight from the start. I am not slagging off metal. I'm genuinely curious.


I bought Megadeths Countdown album this week after hearing a voxless track in a recent guitar mag. i thought it sounded deadly.

I was into metal for a brief period during my teens. Like most kids at the time. Hearing Iron Maidens Run to the hills on the radio made me want to run out and buy a leather jacket and grow my scruffy locks even longer. I couldnt afford the jacket but did get the record.

From there i discovered Black Sabbath and a few others before growing out of it.

That was well over twenty years ago. So besides the odd Motorhead and Slayer gig Ive never really been anywhere near Metal since.

It seems to me - and i could be wrong - that the whole demon thing still holds sway over the bulk of the bands playing metal today.

Whats it all about? Why the fascination with skulls and dungeons and stuff like that?

Whats the point of it? What are they trying to say?


We are tough?
Our friends are skeletons?
We cant wait to die?


I appreciate that a lot of the musicians are very accomplished but the image seems totally pointless to me.

So what you think your scarey. big deal, it seems very juvenille.

At least with Punk there is/was a message in a lot of it.

Please explain. Im totally outside of the genre so probably come across as being ignorant. which i spose i am.

I totally agree with you on the whole obsession with these somewhat cheesy evil images of skulls, dungeons, death, gore and all that. I never got that myself. to set the record straight, I’m 22, don’t wear any band t-shirts. my hair is short and neat. i in no way look like a metaller.

I'm a big fan of death metal. I listen to death because, as it should be, the music agrees with me. I like listening to the crazy skill involved, and the other nuances of the sub-genre. Unfortunately death has a TERRIBLE image, thanks to (I might add GRIND and TRASH) bands like cannibal corpse, slayer and the like.

The thing that drew me to metal first was the sound (sepultura’s roots was the first proper metal album I heard). I never knew something could be so intense. It totally blew me away.

As for messages in metal. You’d be very surprised at some of the topics dealt with in metal. And you'd also be surprised at the language used. It’s also my opinion that if a band has to resort to bad language to get their point across they are a waste of time. An example would be Cryptopsy's Lord Worm (charming name,eh?). He's a private language tutor. His standard of English is, well mostly bizarre, but very good.

The main problem with metal is it's totally an underground genre, and will remain so. the bits and pieces of metal you see in main stream culture are not exactly reflective of the whole community, and generally from bands I really wouldn’t consider "metal" (yes, I’m talking about HIM, SOAD, Slipknot and any other mainstream metal act ).

I'm amazed that you took the time to actually ask the community and write it off as a bunch of immature assholes like so many people unfortunately do.

Maccattack

Ruaidhri wrote:

I'm amazed that you took the time to actually ask the community and write it off as a bunch of immature assholes like so many people unfortunately do.

When did I do that??? I said it 'seems' juvenille. 'seems' and 'is' have separate meanings.

Good post otherwise.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Maccattack wrote:

When did I do that??? I said it 'seems' juvenille. 'seems' and 'is' have separate meanings.

Good post otherwise.

I think he meant to say "instead" of doing all that, like most people do.

Yeah, all the cheesy gimmicks with the skulls and all that gives a lot of metal a bad name. For some bands, it might well be a marketing ploy so all the angsty 14 year olds will buy the CD's.
I much prefer metal bands that have a staright-up kind of image, and without any of the morbidity. Probably why I like Metallica so much after they "sold out".

0utshined

Ancient1 wrote:

And don't forget the mighty Barney Greenway, the greatest social commentator in metal today, imo.

Yeah, I still love the lyrics to "I abstain". They're well written and get you thinking.

Macattack,

I'm not sure what you're basing the whole dragons and skulls thing on, it can't be that Megadeth album because as I recall it the only song that's remotely like that is Psychotron. The lyrics in metal broach a wide range of subjects, sure you get some of that but also a whole lot more. They seem to me to be a whole lot more varied than your standard pop fare.

pbsuxok1znja4r

0utshined wrote:

Yeah, I still love the lyrics to "I abstain". They're well written and get you thinking.

Macattack,

I'm not sure what you're basing the whole dragons and skulls thing on, it can't be that Megadeth album because as I recall it the only song that's remotely like that is Psychotron. The lyrics in metal broach a wide range of subjects, sure you get some of that but also a whole lot more. They seem to me to be a whole lot more varied than your standard pop fare.

Come on, this isn't metal vs. pop. No-one in their right minds would try to claim pop is more varied. I don't think Megadeth are the worst band for all the skeletal lark, (despite their mascot skeleton).
Fair enough, Metal lyrics are varied, but it seems that the vast majority (whether you see it as 'real' metal or not) does follow that whole "leather-clad-skeleton-riding-a-motorbike-of-DOOM!" type of formula.
I just wish metal could leave behind all that stuff.

Doctor J

I believe it was Ozzy himself who said

"It's heavy music, it needs a heavy lyric"

0utshined

Tommy, maybe you should reread my post, I wasn't trying to turn this into metal vs. pop.

My point was that there is a lot of variety in metal lyrics and as such you're going to have some that go the whole "dungeons and dragons" route. They may be more noticable but in no way are they the majority, I can't even think of a band I've listened to in the past couple of years that have those type of lyrics, with the exception of one or two black metal acts.

pbsuxok1znja4r

What's a heavy lyric?

Doctor J

I believe he mentioned something along the lines of "...You can't sing ring around the ****in rosie"

pbsuxok1znja4r

Haha, quite.

Doctor J

The point is, just like movies, just like books, just like poetry, just like paintings, there are horror, the is drama, there is violence, there is comedy, there is fiction, there is fact. Art covers a myriad of subjects and rightly so. Just beacuse it might be something drawn from the artist's imagination rather than a humdrum reproduction of a bowl of fruit, it doesn't make the painting any less vaild, no? I, for one, would hate to see Metal disown it's roots. Metal is what it is as a result of all the spiked wristbands and sleeveless denim jackets just as much as the socio-political lyrics. There is room for all of it. Long may that continue.

John

Doctor J wrote:

The point is, just like movies, just like books, just like poetry, just like paintings, there are horror, the is drama, there is violence, there is comedy, there is fiction, there is fact. Art covers a myriad of subjects and rightly so. Just beacuse it might be something drawn from the artist's imagination rather than a humdrum reproduction of a bowl of fruit, it doesn't make the painting any less vaild, no? I, for one, would hate to see Metal disown it's roots. Metal is what it is as a result of all the spiked wristbands and sleeveless denim jackets just as much as the socio-political lyrics. There is room for all of it. Long may that continue.

And that's why you're a rock doctor. I can't add anything more to this conversation apart from this:

Doctor J

Rock on John2

John

Doctor J wrote:

Rock on John2

I enjoy my work

Rustar

I can say it a lot more simply.
It's entertainment.

Specifically, youth-oriented entertainment. Real punk is 3 chords, not a lotta talent, but a lot of anger and rebellion. Not much technique, but whole lotta soul.
Metal is the opposite....not a lot of soul in the playing itself, but in the same vein as classical music, the orchestration and totality create the emotion.
It's all just ambience...a mood...a certain emotion that the music drags up in you, and the props help.
Doesn't have to have meaning.....do you look for meaning in a Chuck Berry tune? Or a Stevie Ray Vaughan tune? Or a Joe Satriani tune? No.....you're simply looking to feel a certain emotion, to feel powerful or sad or scared or happy.

Dathai

Barney Greenway for the win. ****ing god that man, I dare anyone to defy that man, they'll be deafened.

MagnumForce

So what if (certain genres of) metal has the image of skulls and demons? Why does pop have the image of clean, happy smiley people, punk the image of angry, unsatisfied, untidyness etc? Its only an image, a visual metaphor to display the mood the music creates. Whats wrong with song about dragons and such, you'd watch a science fiction film wouldnt you? It's exciting, it tells a story, a bit of fun and adventure, unlike other bands singin about goin out and partying in every song they write, or even worse, bands who sing about how terrible life is, you don't like it then shut up and stop bothering me about it! The leather came from a mixture of emulating bikers and S&M(you can thank Rob Halford for that), the demon imagery of some genres of metal, especially the early eighties metal, was probably a way of rebelling against popular society, just like punk sang about anarchy and nihilism and all that. After hearing everyone refer to it as the devil's music they probably just decided to go along with it and to try and see how far they could go and eventualy it just became normal for bands to use devil and demon imagery along with their music. The metal genre was born out of various circumstances, mainly to make good music for people to listen to and enjoy themselves to and have fun doing it, and of course to get some pussy! Punk was too extreme and took itself way too seriously, and still does. It's kind of hard to comment on metal these days as there's so many damn variations out there these days. Suffice it to say that for the most part, it's all about havin a good time and identifying with the music you listen to, whether it be skulls and dungeons, partying and drinking, social collapse and spitting or being depressed and suicidal and complaining alot cos daddy wont buy you a new beverley hills summer house.

im sure i left alot of good points out, i kept forgeting what i was saying.

Karl Hungus

^ All you need in Metal.

Tar.Aldarion

They are just playing the same thing over and over?




Metal makes me feel good,I thoroughly enjoy listening to it and do so all day.
A song is good or bad,it's a combo of lyrics guitar and va va voom.Who cares.You like ity or you don't.If people want to harp on about dragons let them,dragons are cute.Sometimes a song can be good without deep vocals,sometimes a song can be good without great guitar.Personaly,I thought they were trying to say our friends are skeletons or..skeletons are our friends...either wat,they are right.

Sarky

Rustar wrote:

Metal is the opposite....not a lot of soul in the playing itself, but in the same vein as classical music, the orchestration and totality create the emotion.

What? Metal (and classical, for that matter) is full of musicians who throw everything they have into what they play. They're just like every other musician in that respect.


And occasionally, yes, I do look for meaning in a Chuck Berry or Satriani tune. Sometimes I even find it.

Steoob

pants on fire wrote:

There are 2 very different classes of metal fans.

1st you have all the black wearing, pierced to the last, tattooed head, hate your parents, wish i was dead type metal fan.

Then you have the 'ordinary' people you see walking down O'Connell street with their jeans and fairly respectable appearance.

this is a very good explaination...

i would call the first group goths and the second... well i cant think of a name.. but i fall into the second group and when people who dont like metal call me a goth it enrages me so....:mad:

Rustar

Sarky wrote:

What? Metal (and classical, for that matter) is full of musicians who throw everything they have into what they play.

You missed a word in my post. Soul.
The Berklee School of Music version of "everything they have" is a far cry from the Mississippi Delta version of "everything they have".

The world is full of people who can move up and down a fingerboard faster than a camera and computer can track, but very few of those people are really famous. It's a niche, and a different form of entertainment.
This is not to degrade metal (or classical, I started life as a classical musician)....I love quite a bit of it myself (even play some!).

Beer is Life

Steoob wrote:

this is a very good explaination...

i would call the first group goths and the second... well i cant think of a name.. but i fall into the second group and when people who dont like metal call me a goth it enrages me so....:mad:

There are metalheads and metal fans. Metal heads do the metal "fashion" thing and the metal fans are the "normal" lookin types. Thats the way i look at it anyway.

Sarky

Rustar wrote:

Stuff.

No, I'm quite sure I saw that word. And that's why I said what I did. Surely your example of two different takes on the same thing proves that? If a performer doesn't add anything of themselves to even someone else's tune, what's the point in playing it?I wasn't considering technical prowess at all when I posted there.

Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "soul" in a piece of music is? I always considered it a combination of being able to evoke emotion (isn't that the whole point of any kind of music, anyway?) and the sense that the person playing is enjoying their task. It might be a coincidence, but it generally seems that the music I like most is made by people who love what they do.

I'm in danger of taking this all too seriously, so I'll stop now...

Karl Hungus

Sarky wrote:

I'm in danger of taking this all too seriously, so I'll stop now...

No, you're on a roll, keep going. Those would me my sentiments exactly.

Sarky

Hey, it's only rock'n'roll...

Rustar

Sarky wrote:

Hey, it's only rock'n'roll...

Heheh, that's the BEST argument I've heard all day!

All I was saying was that in metal, as well as classical music, the composer becomes the 'fifth musician'. Heavily orchestrated music (as much metal is) has a different effect than a soloist/backup kind of situation.

Here's a 'soul' example....
I'd say Ted Nugent has 'soul', whereas George Lynch doesn't, even though George is technically the far superior guitarist.
another:
Jeff Beck has 'soul', whereas Al DiMeola doesn't, even though Al blah blah blah.

See what I'm driving at?

Karl Hungus

Rustar wrote:

See what I'm driving at?

No, I don't.

Sure, some guitarists are more into fretwanking, while others are not, but that's simply stating the obvious, and it hardly proves that as you put it "Metal is the opposite....not a lot of soul in the playing itself."

Ruaidhri

Maccattack wrote:

When did I do that??? I said it 'seems' juvenille. 'seems' and 'is' have separate meanings.

Good post otherwise.

My humblest apologies! i meant to say

I'm amazed that you took the time to actually ask the community as opposed to writing it off as a bunch of immature assholes like so many people unfortunately do.

I was running out the door from work on a friday evening

Well spotted BTW scouser.tommy.