Question about Paris...

bonkey

Can anyone fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

jc

lazydaisy

Many, including the BBC point to discrimination leading to this, both economic and social [ie the head scarf ban, etc etc]. The media representation is that there is strong segregation and ghettoisation of these communities - that they are marginalised geographically, economically and socially. That collective anger is going to erupt sometime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

Zombrex

bonkey wrote:

Can anyone fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

jc

Paris the girl - Herpes I would say ...

Paris the city - Two african kids were killed, possibly during a police chase.

BBC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm]
...triggered by the deaths last week of two teenagers of African origin.

Bouna Traore, aged 15 and Zyed Benna, 17, were electrocuted at an electricity sub-station. Local people say they were fleeing police during a disturbance, a claim the authorities deny.

I must admit to being a complete Francophile. Love the place, the people, could go back there again and again and never tire of it, think Paris is the greatest city on earth etc. etc. etc.

But the racism in France, particularly against North Africans is endemic, it's in your face, and it's really really disturbing. It's the flaw a mile wide that runs through my experience of the French. I have had French people bring me into their houses, treat me like a son, could not be nicer to me, even express concern about racism...but then think that their treatment of North Africans is not a form of racism at all, and explain it all away by referring to the Algerian Wars. I have had French friends say (in French, obviously!!) 'why did you do that' when I merely said 'hi' to a North African that lived in a village where I spent some time. In that particular village there was one block of flats and all the North Africans lived there, and noone conversed with them - and this was in rural Burgundy far from any sprawling ghettoes. I knew of one French person who would mix freely with them, and who regarded them as his colleagues.

lazydaisy

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

lazydaisy

lazydaisy wrote:

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

LD please dont bring differences from other threads into separate and unrelated ones.
I'm talking about the above not so subltle reference to your dispute with Hobbes in the chavez thread regarding sources.

Beer is Life

It was probably their own fault. The BBC link doesnt work so i dont know what the latest is, but I heard the cops say the kids taught they were the ones being chased when infact the cops were chasing a totally different group. But all cops are lying scum and Africans never smash the place up and riot for little to no reason.

Captain Trips

lazydaisy wrote:

Many, including the BBC point to discrimination leading to this, both economic and social [ie the head scarf ban, etc etc]. The media representation is that there is strong segregation and ghettoisation of these communities - that they are marginalised geographically, economically and socially. That collective anger is going to erupt sometime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt - much like european women do by covering arms and legs when in muslim countries and entering mosques. The reverse, unfortunately, shows that these immigrants refuse or are unwilling to adapt.

Ajnag

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

Hard to integrate when your segregated. This has been going on a long time, In the 60's something like 67 algerians were killed in one night by police(can never for the life of me figure why french bashing americans dont latch on the fact).

This article was posted at another board i hang at, Despite the title its a very thorough write up of what the citíes are and the underlying problems of the french approach's up until now.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

Nuttzz

lazydaisy wrote:

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

lol, so very true

Sponge Bob

Nobody has ever seen the movie La Haine made in 1995 have they ?

EVERY sizeable French City has a number of Ballymun type complexes on the outskirts or further out even and that the North Africans (mainly) are cooped up in these high rise barracks .

Now a number of these Ballymuns have exploded in tandem .

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

Nobody has ever seen the movie La Haine made in 1995 have they ?

I have. But after admitting I was a Francophile, I thought going that step further and admitting to liking French cinema was a bit too pretentious, even for moi...;)

Good film though, if a bit grim.

Speaking of prententious cinema, would 'Forget Paris' be apt?

lazydaisy

Ajnag wrote:

Hard to integrate when your segregated. This has been going on a long time, In the 60's something like 67 algerians were killed in one night by police(can never for the life of me figure why french bashing americans dont latch on the fact).

This article was posted at another board i hang at, Despite the title its a very thorough write up of what the citíes are and the underlying problems of the french approach's up until now.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

French and non French bashing Americans across the political spectrum are well copped onto how poor integration is in France, especially the ones who read Le Monde and or the ones who have studied and spent time in France. The American press is much fairer to Europe than the other way around so that's why you don't hear about it. French society will implode eventually if they dont do a better job at integration.

DadaKopf

Wow, I know people who live in France, too! SNAP! And... I've been to France. And I've seen French movies. I was watching this film once, with a French person, called 'When the Cat's Away', and, like... they totally ripped on this Moroccan character, like he was stupid. And yer wan, the French one said, like, that, like, French people make fun of the Arabs. And the blacks.

Now, I'd believe it, 'cos I've been there and stuff? But not to the banlieus and HLMs., so I wouldn't claim to know a WHOLE LOT about the fabric of French society, but from some books I've read? There's loads of stuff in 'em about how, like, France was a colonial power and stuff and now they're suffering from post-colonialism and, like, how the French national identity is assimilationist rather than pluralist as such, and stuff? And, like... yeah, I know people there and there's books about it and all.

These riots are excellent!

Boredom is counterrevolutionary.

lazydaisy

Good. Sounds like you'd fit right in.

Sponge Bob

Good 2002 Article on the background to these French Ballymuns

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

the only strange thing to me is how long it actually took before the large scale riots broke out .

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

Paris the city - Two african kids were killed, possibly during a police chase.

I think there was more then that before then. Before going on holiday I saw the news report that one side (muslim/asian, forget which) claimed that girls were gang raped by the other side. Yet there had been no reports of such an incident happening and the people claiming never went to the police. May of been a tinderbox to begin with and the issue is ongoing.

Came back through Paris btw and I don't know if this is the norm or not but Airport security were pulling large numbers of people off various planes, myself and family included to "check validty of passports".

Was standing in security office for about 30 minutes, they just came back no questions or explanations and give us our passports and said we were good to go. Men, women and children all being held there. No idea why but might be relatated.

If I was to take a guess it was for tourism reasons as they held us just long enough to miss our flight and two of us had to spend the night in paris b+b.

dathi1

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

Bang on!

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

I think there was more then that before then. Before going on holiday I saw the news report that one side (muslim/asian, forget which) claimed that girls were gang raped by the other side. Yet there had been no reports of such an incident happening and the people claiming never went to the police. May of been a tinderbox to begin with and the issue is ongoing.

Was that not Birmingham? There was a small riot there a few weeks ago, similar story?

mike65

That was Birmingham.

Anyone else stunned at the lack of speed in the reaction from the authorities?

What should have been 2 or 3 nights of localised mayhem is now threatening to become a nationwide rampage based on what? Some Muslims feeling pissed off in some Paris suburbs?

Still no troops, no curfew no nothing except a Gallic shrug or is it sheer shock?. One suspects if the violence had been visited upon the posh parts of Paris things may have panned out somewhat differently, instead they thought it would burn itself out without disturbing the Opera loving clases.

Mike.

Karl Hungus

Ajnag wrote:

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

Lesson's learnt? Somehow I don't think Ireland is paying attention in class.

We need to seriously ask ourselves "What's to stop this happening here?"

bonkey

lazydaisy wrote:

French and non French bashing Americans across the political spectrum are well copped onto how poor integration is in France, especially the ones who read Le Monde and or the ones who have studied and spent time in France.

I dunno. My impression is most people bashing America bash the government.

When it comes to the French, they bash the people every bit as much.

The American press is much fairer to Europe than the other way around so that's why you don't hear about it.

Actually, I'd imagine the reason you don't hear about it is the same reason we don't go to the American papers for Irish news.

French society will implode eventually if they dont do a better job at integration.

No disagreement from me on that one.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

The American press is much fairer to Europe

You are joking, right?

The "axis of weasels".:)
The lazy, feckless, Godless, socialist, appeasing, weak Europeans with all their goddamned holidays off work? etc

bonkey

And lets not forget the avid reporting about the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

fly_agaric

bonkey wrote:

And lets not forget the avid reporting about the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

True. "The Simpsons" itself is probably just as influential as the press. Maybe more influential.:)

lazydaisy

fly_agaric wrote:

You are joking, right?

The "axis of weasels".:)
The lazy, feckless, Godless, socialist, appeasing, weak Europeans with all their goddamned holidays off work? etc

No I'm not joking. But you havent told me what American press you consult? Where do you find these statements?

Bonkey,

I guess I was opaque. By French-bashing Americans, I mean Americans who bash the French and the French government. And not people who bash the American government.

I read what Anjag said as being relevant to American news in that he was talking about their recognition of racial segregation in France as a way to retaliate for all the racial accusations the French press throw at them. But as they are fair, they dont do that. These are global issues and not relevant to one nation as race and religion is an international dialogue, where as Irish news is often only relevant to itself. Even so, you might still go to other papers to see how the rest of the world perceives Ireland or contains information the Irish press wont carry. Still the reason that you dont hear about the US consciousness of French racial segregation, is because the US press doesnt make an issue out of it.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

No I'm not joking. But you havent told me what American press you consult? Where do you find these statements?

I'm dragging things offtopic so I'll stop after this.
I believe the "Axis of Weasels" thing was a NY Post headline when France was opposing the US at the UN before the Iraq war - Chiraq as weasel-in-chief I suppose.
As for the rest - I think those statements represent a general tone in US media whenever continental Europe or the EU is discussed. A set of stereotypes that get dragged up again and again. I'm generalising here though so I am on shaky ground. Remember your thread about anti-americanism a while ago where someone (I don't remember who) posted a techcentralstation article as an example of this?

the_syco

Ajnag wrote:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

mike65 wrote:

Anyone else stunned at the lack of speed in the reaction from the authorities?

Read the linked article, and you'll suddenly reliase that the French cops wouldn't have thought this as anything other than normal, untill it started to spread.

mike65 wrote:

One suspects if the violence had been visited upon the posh parts of Paris things may have panned out somewhat differently, instead they thought it would burn itself out without disturbing the Opera loving clases.

If you read the article, you'll see that even when the "better off" get attacked, the attitude of the cops is very lax.

=-=

I say there is no cure. They got cheap labour, and once the jobs are gone, thay had to pay for them, and their offspring, to live on the (French) dole. I'd say a civil war will happen, and when it does, it'll be the "poor" people with their gold chains, and highly equipped gangs, against everyone else. And everywhere else will call the French barbarians for doing so (whilst trying to sort out their own immigrent problems).

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

Was that not Birmingham? There was a small riot there a few weeks ago, similar story?

Yep your right, I'm wrong. I'll blame jet lag

the_syco

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/6671197?view=Eircomnet

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Jean-Louis Debré, speaker of the National Assembly and the mayor of Evreux, said the majority of his town wanted peace. "The 100 people who sowed this destruction are not part of our world," he added.

Their mindset, tbh.
[/FONT]

Neuro

Captain Trips wrote:

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt...

I just thought of this the other day: does this law require Catholic nuns to remove their headdress?

bonkey

Neuro wrote:

I just thought of this the other day: does this law require Catholic nuns to remove their headdress?

I believe all religious orders are already prohibited from holding teaching positions...or perhaps its just that they couldn't wear their religoius attire whilst doing so.

However, you are correct in that if a nun is a student somewhere, then yes, this law does indeed require that.

the_syco wrote:

Their mindset, tbh.

Their mindset? You mean a mindset other than ours?

How is your comment - distancing yourself from those you disapprove of - any different in nature from the one you are commenting on?

jc

Karl Hungus

bonkey wrote:

Their mindset? You mean a mindset other than ours?

How is your comment - distancing yourself from those you disapprove of - any different in nature from the one you are commenting on?

jc

Seeing as it's just one speaker, I would've said his mindset, before leaping to any conclusions about their mindset.

pukey

i live in fontenay sous bois at the minute, someone tried to blow up the petrol station across the road last night(by setting fire to it), 200 cars were burnt out up the road saurday night(in rosny sous bois) and apparently a gang of 60 youths thrashed an RER train in the nearest station(val de fontenay). things are definitely getting out of hand

DadaKopf

DadaKopf wrote:

Wow, I know people who live in France, too! SNAP! And... I've been to France. And I've seen French movies. I was watching this film once, with a French person, called 'When the Cat's Away', and, like... they totally ripped on this Moroccan character, like he was stupid. And yer wan, the French one said, like, that, like, French people make fun of the Arabs. And the blacks.

Are you being facetious?

Sponge Bob

pukey wrote:

things are definitely getting out of hand

I am amazed it took this long to erupt but when it did . What are the (once feared ) CRS up to ???

lazydaisy

Where these rioters are getting their guns and where they are learning how to shoot?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?ex=1289019600&en=fd3cf7ecce769a91&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

and in case anyone complains that my source is the Jew York Times::rolleyes:

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/redir.php?jid=b6b40b42cf6016a4&cat=e597bd109c960ae3

netwhizkid

The situation in France is getting out of control tbh. And this will not stay within the borders of france if the riots are not stopped. Already Belgium and Germany has had minor Incidents. This is a typical example of the problems immigration can cause. If these individuals had tried to integrate in french society, then maybe they would be more accepted and liked more. If immigrants don't try to adapt then they should not be allowed enter said country and let them soot it out in whatever quagmire that they are in. We now as a nation need to take a hard look and think about curtailing immigration heavily or it will be the centre of Dublin that will be burning next. It could very well happen within the next ten yrs. These people could make things alot better for themselves but they prefer to be eluvise and not integrate properly. With six million Muslims living in France could the country be heading for Civil War? IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

fly_agaric

netwhizkid wrote:

IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

I'd say that Turkey has roughly a snowball's chace in hell of getting into the EU now. These riots have sealed it unless they are parachuted in somehow without any referenda.

Sand

I guess the guys who handled New Orleans so badly and terribly will be taking notes on how the vaunted French social model handles rioters/gangs/social disintegration *without* a massive natural disaster on top of it. Theres much they can learn from their idealogical and philisophical superiours Im sure.

And whilst Im sympathetic to any people whove actually have to live in France with the French and their charming manner, it is taking the mick at this stage. Wheres the French army to restore civil order? The only way the riots will be contained, given theyre basically lashing out wildly in anger, is by taking and occupying these hotspots and implementing and enforcing a curfew after darkness. The option of deploying the army against these gunmen who are targeting police and firefighters also has to be considered, though only as a last resort. Its not right to ask policemen and firefighters to risk being shot if youre not willing to defend them.

Either way, the fun and games for these gangs (and it this stage it appears the rioters are trying to outdo each other in the chaos they cause, they cant all have know the 2 kids personally) has to stop.

I see the somewhat Right and wildly Left parties in France are having a typical "lets share the blame" session. But the anger underlying these riots didnt spring up in the last 3 or 4 years. These no go areas are what happens when you ghettoise people, subsidize underachievement and make no real effort to build a shared culture - not multiculturalism, but a shared culture. Theres talk of radical Islam offering itself as an alternative to the French Republic that has alienated itself from these people, but thankfully this hasnt yet occured. What would be a sure recipe for disaster would be to enlist the aid of Islamic leaders in restoring order, and by doing so elevate them to a leadership position, or a liason between the Republic and these ghettos. Its not encouraging to see that someone thought it a good idea to arrange for a fatwa to be issued against the riots. As if the rioters were all good Muslims.

lazydaisy

netwhizkid wrote:

IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

You can stop EU expansion into the Arab world but you can't stop Arab worlds expansion in the EU, also known in some circles as Eurabia.

Karl Hungus

lazydaisy wrote:

You can stop EU expansion into the Arab world but you can't stop Arab worlds expansion in the EU, also known in some circles as Eurabia.

If I had seen that a week ago, I probably would've dismissed it as a stromfront-esque blurb, but now I think there's a ring of truth to it.

Far Corfe

Ajnag wrote:

Hard to integrate when your segregated.

I dont know, having 25 thousand people running around the South Circular Road in pyjamas does not look much like integration to me.

lazydaisy

Far Corfe-

I nearly wet myself laughing with that!

bonkey

Sand wrote:

I guess the guys who handled New Orleans so badly and terribly will be taking notes on how the vaunted French social model handles rioters/gangs/social disintegration *without* a massive natural disaster on top of it. Theres much they can learn from their idealogical and philisophical superiours Im sure.

Yea, because thats what everyone was saying during the New Orleans disaster, wasn't it.

"The Europeans, especially the French, would never fail to respond to a crisis in a manner better than this, due to their inherent superiority".

When you read "they screwed it up" as "obviously, we Europeans are better and wouldn't make such a mistake" I would humbly suggest it is your interpretation which is at fault.

And whilst Im sympathetic to any people whove actually have to live in France with the French and their charming manner

Ah, it all becomes clear. its just bash-the-French time.

Why not just say that they deserve it, Sand? You could even fabricate a suggestion that this is what the critics of the New Orleans handling also did, just to remain consistent with the above comments.

Wheres the French army to restore civil order? The only way the riots will be contained...
...
The option of deploying the army against these gunmen who are targeting police and firefighters also has to be considered, though only as a last resort.

So you ask the question as a criticism, and then offer an explanation as to why there may be just reason it hasn't been done yet.

I'm not even sure what you're saying at this point. Is it a good or bad thing that the army isn't there?

Its not right to ask policemen and firefighters to risk being shot if youre not willing to defend them.

So it is, or is not, a last resort? Has the stage of last resort been reached yet?

Either way, the fun and games for these gangs (and it this stage it appears the rioters are trying to outdo each other in the chaos they cause, they cant all have know the 2 kids personally) has to stop.

Why does it have to stop Sand?

Its the people you have sympathy for (those living with the French) rioting aganist the French who you apparently have nothing but scorn for. And that scorn seems to be at least partly based in the unacceptable way these rioters have been socially ghettoised and otherwise mistreated societally. Why are for the army to be called in to oppress them back into submission?

jc

lili

houlaaaaaaa!

it's not war in france. slow down:)

well, if destruction of proprieties can make the things involving in the french banlieues (because apparently it's the only way for being heard) i'm all for it.

zinc

Captain Trips wrote:

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt - much like european women do by covering arms and legs when in muslim countries and entering mosques. The reverse, unfortunately, shows that these immigrants refuse or are unwilling to adapt.

I agree, I'm tired of excuses consistently made on behalf of people burning down cities.

zinc

lili wrote:

houlaaaaaaa!

it's not war in france. slow down:)

well, if destruction of proprieties can make the things involving in the french banlieues (because apparently it's the only way for being heard) i'm all for it.

The authorities are callings it akin to Cival War so don't be so flippant. I hope it spreads myself and shows the idiocy of trying to integrate people who have no wish to integrate. A wake up call if you will.

bonkey

zinc wrote:

and shows the idiocy of trying to integrate people who have no wish to integrate. A wake up call if you will.

A wake up call to who? The problem in France is a refusal to integrate people who do not wish to abandon their own culture and become French.

It is not a failure of trying to integrate.
Its a failure of trying to accomodate without integrating.

jc

Nuttzz

Zinc, wishing civil war to prove a point isn't very smart.

It is a wake up call for Europe, if people arrive in Europe and want to live by the rules and cultures of their home country, do we allow them? do we financially support them? or do we deport them?

Personally I think that as long as they obey the laws of the land they should be allowed live their life without state interference, at the same time they shouldn't expect to be treated differently compared to "the locals" with regard to access to health care, housing, social welfare etc.

I have seen immigrants working here looking to improve their lot and I have seen them come here looking for handouts, there are good and bad in all societies.

Sponge Bob

Nuttzz wrote:

It is a wake up call for Europe, if people arrive in Europe and want to live by the rules and cultures of their home country, do we allow them? do we financially support them? or do we deport them?

Well their parents came to France in the 1960s to full employment . The offspring were born there and grew up to mass unemployment.

I kinda also blame the parents for sticking to the ghettos that the Banlieux have become in the past 30 years since full employment melted away and not moving their French kids to where integration would have been easier .

But whats done is done, and a bloody mess it is now