Train Fines

Stevee

I got finned yesterday for not having a valid ticket. I commute into dublin from a Balbriggan. Unfortunatly I fell asleep and had to get off at the next stop Laytown. At Laytown there was a ticket inspection from CIE's revenue department. The Inspector toke my details Name, Address, telephone number etc,etc. HE THEN RANG THE NUMBER TO CONFIRM I LIVE THERE!!!!!!! A Gaurd wouldnt even do this. I then asked could i pay the excess [ e 4.50, which is a joke given that a singlr ticket to dublin from Balbrigan is ony e 3.20 ] and was told that i couldn't. That they inspectors couldnt take money and that they wouldnt allow me to the ticket office to buy a ticket to balbriggan to cover the xs. Apparently I have to pay a E 80. I was told first that this was the differncein in the wekly fare from Laytown to dublin and the ticket i had I was then told that it was a "administrive" fee. AS anyone heared of this Do i have any recourse. I understand that there are people travelling with the trins with no tickets. But I had a valid one. I cant belice iam being fiend E80 for dozing of on the train after a long day. A train i catch in the morning at 0640 and get home at 1730

MarkoP11

You were on a train without a ticket valid for where you got off, you fell asleep not IEs fault

IE staff are fully entitled to confirm your details since they want to ensure a court summons gets to you if you dont pay

If you are caught with no ticket invalid ticket wrong ticket its a fixed penalty fine it doesnt matter what the background is, you get fined. Its been zero tolerance for the last 3 months

Do that on the Luas its the same deal

Only recourse is not to pay the fine and get a lawyer and slug it out in court and risk a conviction probably cheaper to pay the fine than lose a days wages

Stevee

I understand my ticket was on STOP short. Should I of pulled the Emergecy stop cord. I was upfront and asked to pay the excess. As I understood it i could offer to pay the xs. Has there been a change in Bye law etc, etc. I was upfront and didnt try to hide anything or wesal out of the fare. I accept Iam in the wrong. But I made a simple mistake anyone of us culd of made. If it was a case that I didnt have any ticket I could understand them cracking down so hard. Surly I must have some recourse

Stevee

Is there a Appell process. What would you of done Marko

MarkoP11

The law is here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI109Y1984.html

35. Any person who is reasonably suspected of committing or attempting to commit any offence against these Bye-Laws shall give his or her name and address to any authorised person when requested to do so.

The related transport act says

(4) Where a person contravenes a provision of bye-laws made under this section which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision, he shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.

It hasn't changed IE have just started to inforce it

As I understand the penalty currently at court is €635 and or 3 months in jail, the level of the fine is at the discretion of the CIE board

MorningStar

It is an unfortunate case for you but it is just bad luck. You can feel a bit hard done by but in order for the system to work it is the fairest way. Anybody could just claim they fell asleep. Like speeding tickets you can't claim the police in the wrong place if you actually choose to speed

Stevee

If the fine is set at 10 pounds. Why do I have to pay e 80. Why is there no appeal pocess in place

davidoco

Was it not possible to get off the train at Laytown and wait for the next Balbriggan bound train? If your not exiting the station and it is genuine as in your case he can't fine you.

MarkoP11

Nope you would get fined since the ticket is valid for any reasonable route since the train stopped in Balbriggan that doesn't apply

If you did Dublin Drogheda then Drogheda Laytown where that was the quickest way to reach Laytown it is technically allowed

The ticket is permission to travel second you step off your yourney ends

michaelanthony

Stevee wrote:

I got finned yesterday for not having a valid ticket. I commute into dublin from a Balbriggan. Unfortunatly I fell asleep and had to get off at the next stop Laytown. At Laytown there was a ticket inspection from CIE's revenue department. The Inspector toke my details Name, Address, telephone number etc,etc. HE THEN RANG THE NUMBER TO CONFIRM I LIVE THERE!!!!!!! A Gaurd wouldnt even do this. I then asked could i pay the excess [ e 4.50, which is a joke given that a singlr ticket to dublin from Balbrigan is ony e 3.20 ] and was told that i couldn't. That they inspectors couldnt take money and that they wouldnt allow me to the ticket office to buy a ticket to balbriggan to cover the xs. Apparently I have to pay a E 80. I was told first that this was the differncein in the wekly fare from Laytown to dublin and the ticket i had I was then told that it was a "administrive" fee. AS anyone heared of this Do i have any recourse. I understand that there are people travelling with the trins with no tickets. But I had a valid one. I cant belice iam being fiend E80 for dozing of on the train after a long day. A train i catch in the morning at 0640 and get home at 1730

Why did you give your real details/.

Stevee

I asked to pay the excess straight away, and thought I was giving my details so i could pay it. I'am standing on prinicple here. I'am not paying the fine. I had a valid ticket [albieit to the privous stop, Its not like i culd off pulled the emergancy stop lin to get off] and was more then willing to pay the excess. My only crime being that I was to exshausted to stay concious. Surly there must be some sort of appeal option open to me.If needs be I will go to court only to show how unfair this system is to the average Joe.

MorningStar

Stevee wrote:

I asked to pay the excess straight away, and thought I was giving my details so i could pay it. I'am standing on prinicple here.

THe Principle is you took a longer journey than your ticket allowed. The train company were not responsible for this you were. Your principles should allow you to realise that if your story was believed everybody would use it. YOU di dthe journey you pay for the trip!

Stevee wrote:

Surly there must be some sort of appeal option open to me.If needs be I will go to court only to show how unfair this system is to the average Joe.

The average Joe doesn't fall asleep on the train and not expect to pay their fair! THe fact you will be willing to waste a days hoilday and the rest of the effort to pay a just charge shows a level of misguided standing I have not seen in a long time. I assume a days holiday is worth more than €80 to you?

How do you plan to prove you are not lying? Do you believe that your excuse should just be instantly believed when everybody says it? THink of the cost of processing this type of stuff. Put up with the fine and do the sensible thing

Genghis

I often find that a well-written letter sent to the right person can very often de-fuse the situation and result in a waiver.

The inspector was doing his job and was perfectly entitled to fine you. If you present your argument rationally and with due respect, IE may well quash the fine in the circumstances.

If I were you I would try to establish:

1. That you are long-term commuting customer of IE, buying weekly / monthly tickets, etc. -say how many years, etc; give credit card number if you buy them that way, etc or details of your employer (if you are on a PAYE relief scheme), along with your CIE ID card number
2. That you live closer to Balbriggan than Laytown (assuming you are)
3. That you haven't been fined before (assuming you haven't)
4. That it was an innocent mistake that you are not in the habit of making.

Apologise, accept you were in the wrong, promise that you will pay the fine within 2 days of their response (if you are turned down). Be courteous, non-threatening and reasonable in your style. Keep the letter simple and attach a copy of the fine notice for their reference.

Cabaal

It sucks like hell but all you can do is pay the fine and be done with it, its alot cheaper both in hours wasted and money wasted in the long run and its not like it leaves a criminal record.

Stevee

Its the principal. Anyway CIE is a public body. To which a portion of my Tax goes. I'am therefore alrady paying twice for a ticket Iam not paying a third time. Esspecially when there ampun they are asking foris so unjustified

Zaph0d

You were unlucky and if you're short of the money to pay the fine it's the last thing you need but don't make it worse for yourself.

Which principle are you standing up for? The principle that if you break a rule by mistake that you shouldn't be punished? I got an €80 parking clamp the other day because I was visiting a friend and I forgot that they had pay and display parking in the evenings. It never occurred to me that I should make a stand for the little guy and go to court.

The stop you got off at is a more expensive journey. How could the inspector possibly determine that you were genuine and that you don't just do this every day?

You can go to court if you want. You've got to ask yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well do you, punk?

MorningStar

Stevee wrote:

Its the principal. Anyway CIE is a public body. To which a portion of my Tax goes. I'am therefore alrady paying twice for a ticket Iam not paying a third time. Esspecially when there ampun they are asking foris so unjustified

Do you also claim your free electricity from ESB?:rolleyes:
You did not have a valid ticket for the journey you took. This is the principle. as a fee paying passanger you have to prove you have paid sufficient fare to take said journey. State your principle where by they train services believe any old excuse. If you have a great principle explain how they should do it so that the fee is not less than the investigation.
You don't have a valid point of argument that is reasonable. I really don't care if you waste your own time of a stupid view you hold that they should just believe you. Who is at fault for you falling asleep? If you can some how blame somebody else get them to pay the fine because that is the cause of your fine not the people in CIE

seamus

Stevee wrote:

Its the principal.

What principle?
If you go to court, you will find yourself paying out even more money. It's bad luck, but you haven't been unfairly treated. When you make mistakes, **** happens.

Imagine you parked your car in a street where you had to pay for parking between 7am and 7pm. You park at 6am, but forget that the clocks went forward an hour last night. Should tha traffic warden waive your fine because you made a mistake?

Stevee

My Point is there autta be some way to appeal. I was wrong, I made a mistake. I dont ind paying a Resonable fine. But this fine is not resonable.

MorningStar

Stevee wrote:

My Point is there autta be some way to appeal. I was wrong, I made a mistake. I dont ind paying a Resonable fine. But this fine is not resonable.

Well a lot of people think it is reasonable as ultimately you did go further than you paid for, what ever the reason they aren't lying and you could be. You have no real grounds for appeal as you did exactley what you are been fined for. There is no need for appeal as you were caught red handed and are guilty. A mistake you have made has had consequences live with your mistake and take responsibility for it and stop trying worm your way out of it.

There is no priniciple where by you are right. You don't really have any grounds for appeal as nobody from CIE held you on the train or put you to sleep.

John R

Stevee wrote:

Should I of pulled the Emergecy stop cord

What's the fine for misuse of the emergency handles again? More than €80 i'm sure.

Falling asleep and missing your stop is not an emergency. Besides on modern trains these do not activate the brakes, they just put you in communication with the driver/guard and I can assure you they wouldn't stop the train for you missing your station.

Stevee wrote:

But this fine is not resonable.

Why? Because it is you that has been fined?
The fine is perfectly reasonable.
The penalty fare is supposed to be a deterrent to fare evaders, if it was just the cost of a regular ticket then why should anyone buy a ticket.

The facts are that you travelled without having a valid ticket due to no fault of the railway company. You were caught fare-evading and given the standard fine. You are now trying to justify not paying it with increasingly stupid arguements.

Genghis' post contains the best advice, write a letter explaining how YOU were at fault unintentionally and they might let you off.

Oh and include the bit about your taxes paying for CIE 'cause public sector workers never tire of hearing that one.

MarkoP11

Technically commuter trains don't need a communication cord the fine is 500 odd euro I think, and on the bulk of trains it doesn't apply the brakes

You got caught out its a tough break but really nothing you can do, write a letter to the address on the piece of paper you got and make a case you never know but the time has come for strict penalties to be enforced harshly its the only way, thats the Luas model and it seems to work

Put it down to experience pay the money and get on with your life its not really worth the time and cost to fight it

Stevee

Tell me John and Star do you work for CIE. Do you think that the Fine is in line withthe "CRIME". I know Iam wrong. As Ive said I have no problem paying a fine as long as its a resonable fine. If I commiteed a Public Order Offense i wouldnt be asked to pay anymore then E 50. Do you think that the punishment in line the crime.

MorningStar

Stevee wrote:

Tell me John and Star do you work for CIE. Do you think that the Fine is in line withthe "CRIME". I know Iam wrong. As Ive said I have no problem paying a fine as long as its a resonable fine. If I commiteed a Public Order Offense i wouldnt be asked to pay anymore then E 50. Do you think that the punishment in line the crime.

Don't work for CIE. I think you should accept the fine as to avoid paying it or going to court is grossly inefficient for you and the company involved. I have heard of judges increasing the fine on people who waste court time. If it is seen you can afford the fine and did object on a misguided principle (yes it is completely misguided) they might actually increase your fine or make an example of you. BY doing anything other than paying you are costing me the tax payer money through wasting the courts and the CIE staff. THere is a reason that the driving penalty points go up if you bring it to court. Irish people have always try to play the systems especially those of appeal. That is why I am actually glad there is no way for you to appeal as you are guilty and if you could appeal the cost of the fine would end up being less than the cost of retriving the fine.
Put up with the fine as it is your fault nobodiy elses

MarkoP11

Luas fixed fine is €45 and the most expensive single journey is €2, its a lot more than that to get to Laytown

€80 is the level approved by the board of CIE it has to carry some pain level or else you could play the odds of getting caught vs the price of a ticket game (much loved game with traffic wardens that until clamping came along)

Bear in mind they could simply get you dragged to court directly if they felt like it

It is deemed a penal offence in the act

Stevee

The fare is E3. Soits not that different. I wouldnt have any problem paying the fine if it was E 45. I also dont like the fact that I had 5 Rail men standing around me and all questioning me at once. But as i said i agree iam in the wrong but I assure everyone I will not be paying this Fine

Dave

I can totally see where the OP is coming from, and it sickens me that everyone is so quick to jump on board to completely unjust actions by CIE.

I always thought that if I was ever in the situation above, the fact that I missed my stop and having to go through the hassle of getting back there would be punishment enough. It's not like the OP set out to "screw" CIE over or even cost CIE any extra money.

On the other hand I'm sure the inspector has heard every excuse there is.

Stevee

I have no problem paying a fine. But not a fine this large. It cost me E 20 for a Taxi back to balbriggan so i could colect my car. E 100 for a 10 minute nap

John R

Stevee wrote:

Tell me John and Star do you work for CIE. Do you think that the Fine is in line withthe "CRIME". I know Iam wrong. As Ive said I have no problem paying a fine as long as its a resonable fine. If I commiteed a Public Order Offense i wouldnt be asked to pay anymore then E 50. Do you think that the punishment in line the crime.

No, I don't work for CIE.

I would have replied with the same answer to the offensive PM you just sent me but instead I'll just forward it to a mod.

You had better get all the digs in while you can 'cause you are not likely to be here much longer, abusive PMs are not looked on too kindly here.

You are lucky that I don't work for CIE, if I did you can be sure I would make it my business to ensure you were pursued for the maximum amount possible for that nasty little message. As it is I will just wish you the best of luck in paying your fine, it is nice to know my suspicions that you deserve the fine have been confirmed.

Stevee

I think your telling fibs there Johnny Boy

lostexpectation

i don't understand why morningstar et al goes around the boards here and accommodation, with his hardass attidue life is ****, pay up aggressiveness...

do the ticket checkers not have discretion?

its called fare evasion isn't it, i don't see anyone _evading_ the fair here.

sure loads of people try to cheat there way out of paying but that doesn't mean you punish the genuine people and take so much pleasure in it as you do MS

Stevee

cheers

seamus

lostexpectation wrote:

do the ticket checkers not have discretion?

its called fare evasion isn't it, i don't see anyone _evading_ the fair here.

sure loads of people try to cheat there way out of paying but that doesn't mean you punish the genuine people and take so much pleasure in it as you do MS

The problem here is how do they know who's genuine and who's not? It's not just scumbags who try to dodge fares on busses and trains. I completely agree that it would be nice to be able to explain when you make a mistake, and not be fined, but for all the inspector knows, Stevee pays a smaller fare every day, and gets off at that stop. How is he to know otherwise?

As Mark points out, CIE have gone zero tolerance on this lately. It sucks that you have to pay for an innocent mistake, really, but you can't say that CIE don't have a right to fine you.

Trampas

Next time but your alarm on your phone a couple of mins before you stop so you wake up in time and don't miss your stop.

Could you not have walked to the other platform and got the next train coming.

You might have only needed to wait 2 hours

Board@Work

lostexpectation wrote:

i don't understand why morningstar et al goes around the boards here and accommodation, with his hardass attidue life is ****, pay up aggressiveness...

do the ticket checkers not have discretion?

its called fare evasion isn't it, i don't see anyone _evading_ the fair here.

sure loads of people try to cheat there way out of paying but that doesn't mean you punish the genuine people and take so much pleasure in it as you do MS

Its call fare evasion correct. By his own admission he didn't pay the correct fare for the journey he made. Therefore he evaded the whole fare. Whats stopping me paying for a ticket from Bray to Shankill and then taking it all the way into town, and if caught say "i fell asleep".

Stop moaning and pay the fine as you didn't pay the full fare for the journey you took. Again it isn't CIEs fault for you falling asleep, its your own fault.

dazberry

Board@Work wrote:

Its call(ed) fare evasion correct(?)

Maybe its just me but I always thought that fare evasion was not paying the correct fare with intent (i.e. on purpose). Stevee is obviously guilty of the lesser crime of manslaughter /sigh/.

D.

Metrobest

I feel sorry for Stevee. Ticket inspectors need to have discretion. There are situations in which you have to use common sense. If someone falls asleep and misses their stop as a result, that's completely different from somebody deliberately not buying a ticket and milking the system.

In situations such as Stevee's, the inspector should have the discretion to issue an excess ticket to cover the extra stop. If there is an element of doubt, a stern warning from the inspector is enough to deter most middle class fare evaders. Gung-ho zero tolerance tactics just get people's backs up and just serve to reinforce the impression of CIE as an uncaring monopoly which fleeces decent fare-paying customers. I

If the story happened the way he tells it, I'm sure the rest of the train heard what was happening to Stevee and went home and bad-mouthed CIE's bully boy inspectors to friends and family. Is that the kind of PR the "we're not there yet" rail company needs?

honru

I don't understand why you had to be confronted by the ticket inspectors in the first place.

I mean, why couldn't you just get the the next train to Balbriggan? There was no real need to get a new ticket if you had just missed your stop.

dRNk SAnTA

Well, would the situation be different if he was getting the DART from town to shankill and woke up as the train is pulling into bray. Should he be fined for trying to board a train back to shankill?

Is this situation the same as that?

Because in my view the law isn't broken when they step off the train, its broken when they attempt to leave the station. Thats would just make so much more sense to me. And would be a lot fairer for everyone.

MarkoP11

We have had too much discretion on fare evasion in the past the only thing that works a is a concrete invalid or no ticket fixed fine thats the only thing which makes it work, its rough but no matter where you are no matter what time of day it is consistent

A ticket is authority to travel between two points getting off before the quoted destination under certain circumstances is also deemed a breech of bye law and subject to the same legal procedure

The law is clear its entry to vehicle is when the crime is committed (and it is a penal offence so crime is the correct term) exit just proves where you are going

3(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

So you can't hop on a train and go back since you obviously have no valid ticket, IE state no break of journey allowed, if the train had not stopped in Balbriggan it would be fully legal to change trains at Laytown

honru

MarkoP11 wrote:

So you can't hop on a train and go back since you obviously have no valid ticket, IE state no break of journey allowed

Of course it's something that's frowned upon, but the guy simply missed his stop, so I wouldn't have a grudge over something so miniscule. They're hardly going to find out if someone has an barely invalid ticket when the train's in motion.

bungeecork

I know someone who went to court on a point of principle regarding a parking fine. The fine was a few euro and loosing in court would increase it. The nerves on court day were almost unbearable, the defence was prepared meticulously, and when their case was called in traffic court, the warden didn't show up and the fine was withdrawn.

But you prob. wont be so lucky. Yes it absolutely sucks, but I think you should pay it and hate IE forever.

If you were going to work and could show where you worked and what time you usually went to work then you might be lucky in court, but as you were going home even if you show where you live then you could have been visiting a friend at the stop beyond.

You would have a chance if the stops were normally announced loud enough to wake you up but your stop wasn't announced that day.

John R

f®eak s&#169 wrote: »

Of course it's something that's frowned upon, but the guy simply missed his stop

The guy SAYS he simply missed his stop.

How many people that are caught fare-evading don't come up with some reason for it? Are the staff supposed to somehow know who has genuinely made a mistake and who has intentionally fare-evaded? They have a certain amount of discretion, is it not possible that in this instance they didn't just heartlessly apply the rule but actively believed that he was intentionally fare evading?

honru

John R wrote:

The guy SAYS he simply missed his stop.

How many people that are caught fare-evading don't come up with some reason for it? Are the staff supposed to somehow know who has genuinely made a mistake and who has intentionally fare-evaded?

I can understand the whole fare-evading subject. But is there that much of a difference if you miss your stop and get the next train back at the upcoming station? Still says Balbriggan on the ticket if there ultimately was a check.

Our man in Havana

What was to stop him from getting off the train in Laytown and crossing to the far platform and going back to Balbriggan? He would have not been near a barrier or inspector.

MarkoP11

Its is not deemed a reasonable route, every train that calls at Laytown (bar the 18:45) also calls at Balbriggan

If you changed platforms in Laytown going back you ticket does not say Laytown thus you are not allowed board and well the ticket inspectors could board

IE have tightened up there legal they are targeting the exit point on the network which is much harder to hide from. The number of people getting pulled up is amazing. They have Tom's directory with them, they are ensuring that they have your correct details (also an offence to give false details). All the cases are brought before court as a block so the team is present and CIE have a large legal team

So when you are asked did you have an invalid ticket for the journey, by your admission you did

Guilty as charged, you feel asleep ignorance is no defence

Stevee

In Laytown there are two exsits out of the station One in tp a car park which directly leaves you out. The other is across a footbridge which leads to the other platform and the exit out . The Inspectors were positioned at both at the entranceto the car park and the footbridge to the other platform. While speaking two one nspector [ I Woulkd like to add before i continue that I was surroned by 5 Inspectors with there manager standing nthe car park, Which is Very Intimidating] there manager souted over that I should of crossed the platform and gotten the next train to Balbrigan in 45 Minutes. However I had asked One of the Five inspectors who had cornered me could I do this and toldme a resounding no. Had I crossed the bridge I would of been stopped by a nother Inspector. I admit fully I am in the wrong. But this is a joke. Let the fine fit the crime. I was willing to pay the fine when the told me about it. Because as I've said Iam in the wrong. Also remeber I gave all my actual details whn askeD. But also reember I hadn't left the station I was still standing on the platform when I asked t Pay the XS fare. I made no attemp to leave what so ever. The only reason they knew my ticket didnt go as far as Laytown. Is beause I told them So

MorningStar

Stevee wrote:

[ I Woulkd like to add before i continue that I was surroned by 5 Inspectors with there manager standing nthe car park, Which is Very Intimidating]

Now all of a sudden you feel threatened by these inspectors? How do you think they feel when doing this?

Stevee wrote:

I admit fully I am in the wrong.

Then pay the fine

Stevee wrote:

Let the fine fit the crime.

It does and if you bring it to court your fine should be more and you should have to pay court costs for wasting time and money of public services

Stevee wrote:

reason they knew my ticket didnt go as far as Laytown. Is beause I told them So

You mean they didn't check any tickets? This really is a a load. You want some brownie points because you came clean?
As you know you are wrong just pay the fine! You have yet to make any reason for not paying the fine no matter how much it is.

Stevee

Star get that chip off your shoulder If you had read the privious posts. I agree and understandthat I've have to pay a fine. I juat dont belive that the fine is resonable. A little comman sence goes a long way. So I have no problem contesting it to show how unresonable the set up is. I didnt say they didnt check any tickets Isaid they didnt need to check mine. I pointed it out to them, and yea I know how increadibly stupid that was. Star I'am not back tracking on anything.I can also understand ifthey have some knacker giving them hassel why they would need all 5 to stand around them. But I was quite resonable and polite and didnt raise my voice once. Star i doubt very much that you dont or someone very close to you works for CIE.



Edit: Star I am willing to pay the fine Once It is a RESONABLE fine. 20 TIMES THE ACTUALLY FARE. IS Not resonable

Bluetonic

Stevee, if your case is genuine then I suggest you drop your local TD an email explaining the situation. In this case I'd suggest the leader of the Green Party Trevor Sargent (tsargent@greenparty.ie).

He's a local man from Balbriggan, lives up in Tara Court and he actually uses the train to commute to Kildare Street each and every day so would be well placed.

I'm sure he'd be interested to hear about your case, although I would say you should contact IE first and see if they have anything to say and if you get no joy there get in touch with Trevor.

Stevee

Cheers Blue. If nly other posters could be as helpful