Attic Conversion - do we need steel

di11on

Hi folks. We're thinking of converting our attic. We have a three bedroomed semi-detatched bungalow with hipped, trussed roof.

The house is 8m x 11m and the attic is 2.9m at the highest point.

In order for the conversion to comply with building regulations - is steel reinforcement necessary? A reputable contractor who has many years experience and who has been recommeded to us seems to think that heavy wooden beams are adequate.

We don't want to shell out a fortune, so don't want to go with CHI attics... but we would like to have the job ceritified.

However, it seems to be a catch 22 situation - because in order to get a compliance certificate, we need to get the services of an achitect - who would presumably draw up plans for reinforcing the attic. However, most builders seem to be reluctant to work from someone elses plans.

On the other hand, if an architect is called in afterwards, they are reluctant to certify someone else's work.

It seems to me that if you want a certified job, you have no choice but to go with someone like CHI attcis who do the whole thing and provide certification. But they are pricey!

Does anyone have any advice about how to get a conversion certified and whether or not we need steel reinforcement?

Many thanks

mad m

Ceiling joists are only meant to hold slabs for ceilings,I personally wouldnt chance it.RSJ's all the way.

rooferPete

Hi,

Based on your post I would advise that you take extreme care with the advice you have to date, if your truss roof was designed for conversion it should have a virtual room already in place.

By that I mean no timbers extending out to the centre of the attic, if you get into the attic it would look like tunnel with the timber for the side walls and the ceiling already in place.

While it's not my money you are spending the choice is yours, personally I would pay the fee to get the experts advice before any work starts.

The certification will be only a minor problem if an Engineered Truss is interfered with in any way, roofs are collapsing caused by DIY and Cowboy attic conversions, to give you an idea of what you are looking at, 1000 tiles weigh on average 5 tonnes.

Take care, do a little research the roof may have been designed for conversion but unless it was a major selling point of the house chances are it was designed as a roof not a room.

.

C Fodder

AFAIK if the joists are 7x2 they can carry a floor and there is no need for any work on them. If they are 5x2 then it depends on the gap between joists but it is not recommended.

rooferPete

Hi,

A 7"x2" on an 8m span ? I think it's time for RooKad to be called in

I am not saying C Fodder is wrong, I think you will find that it depends on the span, the centres and if there is a structural wall carrying the weight.

I wouldn't be concerned about the ceiling, at worst that will sag and the problems caused will be gradual, my concern would be removing structural timbers holding the roof up.

A truss works in more ways than one.

.

di11on

Thanks for the replies folks.

The guy we've talked to does propose to reinforce the ceiling - but with thick timber beams, rather than steel. My question is, is it possible/adequate to reinforce without steal, or is steel necessary?

From what I've heard, we'll definitely play it safe and get an Architect to tell us what we can/can't do.

Thanks again folks.

kadman

rooferPete wrote:

Hi,

A 7"x2" on an 8m span ? I think it's time for RooKad to be called in

I am not saying C Fodder is wrong, I think you will find that it depends on the span, the centres and if there is a structural wall carrying the weight.

I wouldn't be concerned about the ceiling, at worst that will sag and the problems caused will be gradual, my concern would be removing structural timbers holding the roof up.

A truss works in more ways than one.

.

Right on all accounts Rooferpete.

Jaysus 8m clear span, on 7x2's aaaaaaarrrrrggghhh.......:eek: :eek: :eek:

Peter get me the valium quick...gulp...gulp...gulppp..Ahh thats better...who needs 7x2...I can fly now.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That is definitely a scary scenario. Its a dangerous thing to have throw away comments in such a serious situation. You need to consult the pro's on this one, or check the span tables in homebonds construction book.

Timber that size would sag under its own weight over that span, carrying nothing. Maybe you got the appropriate quote, for a professional job. Why is every job regarded as pricey. Pricey is a relative term, but what is it relative to. A top job, or a botch job.

I could give you the direction on the span tables, but that would serve no purpose. An engineer is the only person to instruct you on this. Rooferpete no doubt knows the proper arrangement, from experience, as do I. But major structural modifications to a house, especially the roof, need the experts guidance.

7x2...ROFLMAO...sorry, valium is still in the system,:cool:

kadman:)

patrido

may I interrupt the hysterics...

correct me if i'm wrong, but di11on said that his house measures 11mx8m, not necessarily that the span is 8m. being a bungalow, there may well be a supporting wall down the middle of the house splitting the span in two.

the span tables are easily obtainable from a number of sources - the building regulations, IS444, and the homebond book, and lots of structural engineering books. while it is obvious that an engineer is a must, that doesn't mean that the original poster should be kept in the dark about the issues involved.

for the benefit of the di11on and anyone else, spans of up to about 6m are quite manageable, with the correct species, size, grade and spacing of joists, appropriately bridged. high quality c27 joists spaced at 12inch centres, and sized 9x3 can cover over 6 metres.

beyond that distance, alternative solutions are required. a single steel rsj might be used to split either the 11m or the 8m span, into two 5.5 or 4m spans respectively. these smaller distances can be spanned using standard joists, and an appropriate method of fixing.

timber I-beams can also be used instead of steel to cover a large span. a good architect or engineer will discuss all the relevant issues and options with you.

obviously, i've just been discussing the floor issues... the roof issues are way beyond the scope of my knowledge and experience

Victor

di11on wrote:

However, most builders seem to be reluctant to work from someone elses plans.

This would be rare, but understandable where the contractor has a system.

I would actually recommend you get an engineer to do the design. He can agree with the builder as to whther to use steel or timber, whereas the architect might hum and haw and talk to an engineer anyway.

rooferPete

Hi patrido,

That is a nice long post, perhaps you could have saved yourself some time if you had read every post prior to your in depth reply.

I replied to di11on in good faith without a lot of detail because it wasn't asked for, I included one item to show the importance of the decision he was making that being the weight of the roof tiles.

Chances are he has fibre cement slates which weigh on average one tonne per thousand, still a lot of weight over your head.

Another poster suggested the span for 7"x2", perhaps you do not realise the number of people who read these posts and may take what they read as the opinions of experts.

They could very easily make the mistake of using what is partial information at best and end up with bad jobs needing costly repairs or worse injuries being caused.

An example was given of dimensions with another of a timber size, the questioner has been advised to use the services of an Architect / Engineer by more than one poster, That in My Opinion is not Hysterics a point I'm sure you agree with as you posted :

"timber I-beams can also be used instead of steel to cover a large span. a good architect or engineer will discuss all the relevant issues and options with you."

The question was partly based on the costs of employing an Architect, I believe the cost of the Architect / Engineer should be looked on as an investment in the proposed project.

.

di11on

Hi Guys,

Thanks again for all the replies.

The house actually has no internal supporting walls - the roof is self supporting from what I undersand. So it seems to me that an Engineer is necessary and steel is more than likely.

From the information I've given so far, would anyone be able to toss out a ballpark figure for a conversion - including stairs and certificate of compliance etc?

Details again:

3 Bed Semi-Detached bungalow
House Dimensions: 8m x 11m
Attic height at highest point: 2.9m
Roof Type: Hipp, Trussed
No internal supporting walls

Thanks again guys

patrido

whoa pete, you're taking this very personally.

who accused *you* of engaging in hysterics??

Victor

di11on wrote:

From the information I've given so far, would anyone be able to toss out a ballpark figure for a conversion - including stairs and certificate of compliance etc?

What shape is the roof?

Is the roof ridge parallel with the long dimension of the house?

Is the roof insulated? Where?

Are their existing rooflights? Do these need to be changed?

What type of stairs do you want?

What do you want to do with the space?

What fittings do you want?

Do you want a bathroom?

What finishes do you want?

kadman

patrido wrote:

may I interrupt the hysterics...

correct me if i'm wrong,

Yeah I intend to do just that.

Someone suggested that 7x2 in the present context could be used, and there is no need for any work on them. That to me is a throw away comment, not qualified by any further info. And is a dangerous thing to suggest in an important area like attic conversion.

Any throw away comment that is not qualified by explanation, makes me hysterical.

Just like your comment about using c27 covering over 6 metres at 12 inch centres out of 9x3. Thats another throw away comment. Some one is going to think thats ok now.

So you better tell them you for got to mention, that the table you got that info from ...DOES NOT ALLOW FOR POINT LOADS SUCH AS PARTITIONS, OR LOADS FROM DORMER CHEEK STUDS ECT.

That maybe throws ( forgive the pun ) your c27 , 12 inch spacing,9x3 out the window then.

cackle...cackle...forgive the hysterics.:p

Take a chill pill Patrido.

kadman:)

mad m

Wow,this is like Afterhours or the Thunderdome. Have never seen such excitement and blow for blow engagement in Gardening/Diy before..:)

patrido

kadman wrote:

Someone suggested that 7x2 in the present context could be used, and there is no need for any work on them. That to me is a throw away comment, not qualified by any further info. And is a dangerous thing to suggest in an important area like attic conversion.

maybe you need to take the chill pill, kadman

while that poster's contribution was lacking in important detail and the content not inappropriate to finding a solution in the current context, it was hardly dangerous to make the comment.

for a start this is an internet forum and advice given in internet forums, even from supposed experts, should NEVER be relied upon to be anything more than opinion that could be at least partially wrong.

secondly this forum has diy and gardening in the title - it doesn't purport to be the fountain of all construction and engineering knowledge rendering architects and engineers redundant. thirdly, the post to which you were referring was qualified with AFAIK, which instantly marks it out as opinion based on a hazy memory, and nothing even resembling professional advice from a suitably qualified source.

if someone was to read the title of the forum, then read that post in isolation, and ignore all the other contributions - about the issues involved, the strong emphasis on the necessity to hire an enginner from esteemed professionals like yourself and rooferpete, and even a mere mortal like myself - and even ignore the advice he was given prior to his original post to this forum, and went ahead with an attic conversion involving 7x2 joists across an 8m span, and even succeeded in putting together such a structure, then they would deserve their place in the darwin awards for 2005.

i doubt that the subsequent enquiry by a coroner or the police into the ensuing disaster would come knocking on any of our doors telling us that we didn't do enough to help avert such a disaster.

if you don't like throwaway opinions, perhaps the internet is not the place for you... 1 billion people, 11 billion web pages, all sharing throwaway opinions every minute of every day... you're going to need a lot of vallium

rooferPete

Hi Patrido,

There is also a term used in such message boards, it's called going off topic, not only is it tolerated on the good boards it adds to the enjoyment of going on line after a days work.

However this is a serious subject, and yes I do take it personally when I am accused of being part of a group causing hysterics, on the contrary I do my best to keep my posts as simple as possible by using what you may consider hysterical examples such as the weight of 1000 roof tiles.

The dimensions of the timbers were not included in the question by di11on, but a post that could have been taken to mean if his roof trusses were 7"x2" then all was well and it would be safe to remove what may be major structural elements from what is considered by many to be an important part of any building could have been used out of the writers intended context.

"may I interrupt the hysterics..."

Could be the opening line of a Highly Qualified Professional Engineer who has spent too long in College Lecturing, so it could be fair to presume you knew exactly what you were posting about.

You may not have noticed but I have always used my full name and contact details in the vast majority of my replies, I note Kadman has done the same, and despite what you may think I am not using Boards.ie as an advertising medium.

You are correct, there are different products to steel that can perform as a preferable alternative, glue lam beams being one.

As to your statistics :

"1 billion people, 11 billion web pages, all sharing throwaway opinions every minute of every day..."

I for one do my utmost to impart the best advice I can based on the information supplied and my qualifications and experience which extend way beyond the realm of roofing, so there is nothing throwaway about the vast majority of the information I post.

.

patrido

rooferPete wrote:

Could be the opening line of a Highly Qualified Professional Engineer who has spent too long in College Lecturing, so it could be fair to presume you knew exactly what you were posting about.

interesting hypothesis, interesting on several levels, some of them even flattering

if I was to call myself something like HighlyQualifiedProfessionalEngineer1, professorPatrido, rooferPatrido, spanTablesBoy, toolonginCollege, drunkenApprentice, saucySindy, BGates or NBonaparte, it doesn't make me any of those things, however much it might appear like it.

It's incredible how many fakes there are out there on message boards and chat rooms... doctors, nutrition experts, fitness experts, psychologists, pharmacists, diy experts, forty year old men pretending to be teenage girls... though, I'm pretty sure not too many teenage girls pretending to be 40 year old men...

Having read a great many of your posts, i don't think your qualifications, experience, judgement or sincerity can be called into question. However, my assertion remains... one is taking a big risk in taking any advice given on an internet forum without it being backed up by a real life professional or at the very least knowledgeable and experienced opinion.

the risks are probably worth taking if one is finding out how to keep a lawnmower healthy, or the best way to catch a mouse, but certainly not for making major structural changes to ones abode.

btw, the hysterics comment was not directed at you, trust me.

di11on

Victor: Thanks for the reply. I've tried to answer your questions below - if you need anything else - please let me know.

I've attached a picture of a nieghbour's house that I found on the net, which is identical to ours. Bear in mind, it's a semi-d house - so it's only half what you see in the picture!

Thanks again

What shape is the roof?
- It's a hipp roof - see the attached picture

Is the roof ridge parallel with the long dimension of the house?
- No - it's perpendicular - see attached picture

Is the roof insulated? Where?
- Not sure - to my memory, just the ceiling is insulated

Are their existing rooflights? Do these need to be changed?
- No

What type of stairs do you want?
- An open plan stair way with wooden hand rail

What do you want to do with the space?
- Want to use it as an office/games room with a couch bed

What fittings do you want?
- Minimum - just lights etc.

Do you want a bathroom?
- No

What finishes do you want?
- Plastered walls

kadman

patrido wrote:

may I interrupt the hysterics...

correct me if i'm wrong, but di11on said that his house measures 11mx8m, not necessarily that the span is 8m. being a bungalow, there may well be a supporting wall down the middle of the house splitting the span in two.

the span tables are easily obtainable from a number of sources - the building regulations, IS444, and the homebond book, and lots of structural engineering books. while it is obvious that an engineer is a must, that doesn't mean that the original poster should be kept in the dark about the issues involved.

for the benefit of the di11on and anyone else, spans of up to about 6m are quite manageable, with the correct species, size, grade and spacing of joists, appropriately bridged. high quality c27 joists spaced at 12inch centres, and sized 9x3 can cover over 6 metres.


for the benefit of the di11on and anyone else, spans of up to about 6m are quite manageable, with the correct species, size, grade and spacing of joists, appropriately bridged. high quality c27 joists spaced at 12inch centres, and sized 9x3 can cover over 6 metres.


obviously, i've just been discussing the floor issues... the roof issues are way beyond the scope of my knowledge and experience

Hi Patrido,

I get my buzz from giving advice to the needy.

So you are directing your references of hysterics at me , I presume.

I will always attempt to give the correct information if I have it, if I dont have it , I will keep quiet. Some info posted here is misguided , and has the possibility of giving the recipient of the info, poor quality advice. Clearly cfodder's info, although posted in good faith, was misguided.

I highlighted this with a bit of light hearted banter. And this seems to have upset you. Tough.

Then you come along and compound the issue with more poor quality advice, as outlined in your quote about 9x3 over a 6m span. Again your info was lacking in its entirety. You failed to give all the info in relation to the tables . Why was that.

You then post again, and fail to mention any more about your omission of specs. Why is that.
But you do go on to say that your reference to hysterics was not aimed at Rooferpete. So its me then I assume.

If i am so passionate about proper construction methods, whats the problem.
I will always shout from the roof tops about poor construction in either, joinery, timberframe, woodwork, cabinet making, or where ever I see poor work, or poor advice. And I wont make any apologies for that.

We seem to be stuck on cfodders advice about 7x2, but your advice " for the benefit of dillon....." paragraph falls into the same category.

Incomplete, and not to be taken as a definitive instruction on the specs for this situation.

Maybe you should have put AFAIK before that paragraph. Then people would be warned not to take it too seriously

And for the record, my experience covers a lifetime, qualifications as well in many fields , believe it or not. Maybe even as much as Rooferpete....but trust me I,m better looking.

Or maybe I should go down the old route of, " advice is free....but lessons are extra "

kadman

patrido

sorry kadman, i didn't mean to move your cheese.

kadman wrote:

I get my buzz from giving advice to the needy.

hence the advertising at the end of every post?

kadman wrote:

So you are directing your references of hysterics at me , I presume.

i would have thought that was obvious from the outset. in fact you acknowledged it in a previous post.

kadman wrote:

I will always attempt to give the correct information if I have it, if I dont have it , I will keep quiet.

in the context of this thread, this statement is absolutely untrue. you stated that you had the information but were unwilling to share it. here are your words...

I could give you the direction on the span tables, but that would serve no purpose.

Then you come along and compound the issue with more poor quality advice,

i wasn't giving advice, it was for information only, and it was factually correct. it never purported to cover every eventuality or scenario, or to be the basis for a decision or specification. i specifically referred to "roof issues" which would include dormers. the only advice i gave (twice) was to employ an engineer as there were many issues. with such an obvious passion for the precise, you must have done a law course at some stage, though you forgot to mention it on your website.

If i am so passionate about proper construction methods, whats the problem.
I will always shout from the roof tops about poor construction in either, joinery, timberframe, woodwork, cabinet making, or where ever I see poor work, or poor advice. And I wont make any apologies for that.

it's not a problem at all, in fact it is quite admirable in this day and age, and i'm sure that the purchasers of your tables, chairs and salad sets greatly appreciate such perfection.

We seem to be stuck on cfodders advice about 7x2, but your advice " for the benefit of dillon....." paragraph falls into the same category. Incomplete, and not to be taken as a definitive instruction on the specs for this situation.

i'm really sorry if this paragraph causes you such offence. but you must have missed the earlier references to consulting an engineer and that there were many issues involved. that was the only definitive in any of my posts. maybe i should trawl through the archives to see if i can find any loopholes in your advice that i could exploit for the sake of argument.

Then people would be warned not to take it too seriously

as i said in a later post, anyone who would construct or convert or even develop a specification for a roof based on posts to a gardening forum, no matter how experienced or qualified the poster claimed to be, would be a fool.

And for the record, my experience covers a lifetime, qualifications as well in many fields , believe it or not. Maybe even as much as Rooferpete....but trust me I,m better looking.

in my experience, people who constantly boast about their skills, experience, qualifications, physical attributes or anything else, are either exaggerating, lying or trying to compensate for their other insecurities or inadequacies.

now, i'm beginning to tire of this petty thread... so have a good weekend and keep

kadman

It sounds like someone took the jam out of your doughnut, Patrido.

If you hang around here long enough , you might learn something.

I do not advertise , seek work, or have ever charged any one boards.ie for any cad work, advice or info in relation to any topic I consider myself to be experienced enough in, to give advice on.

I challenge you to post a thread to ask any forum member, who has contacted me, whether I have ever taken any work from them , or charged for advice given to them. And I have had many pm's in relation to topics here. Your insinuation is down right insulting.

Some information in relation to serious construction issues, cannot be freely given across the thread for various reasons. Mainly that there are too many variables involved in calculating the load issues involved here, that it would be unwise to give in complete info.

You have a different view. You give misleading info on span tables ect, and leave a very pertinent fact out. And yet despite this pointed out to you, you have not yet answered that query yet. Again, why is that.

What do you mean, you were not giving advice. What does " for the benefit of dillon mean".

I was not aware that I was constantly boasting about my skills. Any info you find on this forum about my skills or qualifications, can be posted for you, if you want to verify them. I am proud of my abilities, and skill levels, after all I have put many years of dedication and work into developing them. And I respect any person who has done the same in their field, regardless of what it is. Yes I am a bloody good tradesman, reached the top of my profession, and I am proud of doing so.

Lets face it Patrido, you slipped up. You are quite a literary wit. And that probably compensates for your poor lack of understanding when it comes to building construction.

As for the trolling through the archives for any past mistakes of mine, that you would like to discuss, be my guest. I will be here. I have not trolled through yours and I dont intend to. I dont think that you would have any thing to say that will interest me.

And I am glad to see that you took the time and trouble to visit my website, so now you know what an expert I am.......Have a nice weekend.:)

Sorry for going OT, but some things are worth getting banned for.

kadman:)

rooferPete

Hi Patrido,

I have a stronge dislike almost a hatred of the practice where people take sections from a post and quote from those sections very often out of context.

My envy of Kadman are his skills, the same skills with CAD that he has often used free of any charge and only to assist a visitor to this site who may need a detail clarified.

I further envy his obvious skills and ability to use timber in such a way that brings forth the beauty that hides behind the bark on the trees around us today and those that stood proud on our country thousands of years ago.

I respect the man's proven ability and knowledge from his posts in the short time I have been reading those posts, in my opinion he has earned the respect of the many who have benefitted from his knowledge.

I find your reference to his web site offensive and childish at best, in my view he has the balls to supply a lot of personal detail including his telephone number and home address, something I have yet to see you do.

As to the advertising content on his web site ? from what I can see he displays pieces he has every right to be proud of, maybe he will get a commission from using the web address as his sig but in my view he has earned the right use it for information or advertising based on the information he freely supplies on Boards.

For your information I asked the moderators if It would be acceptable to use my web site as my signature, maybe they were surprised that I would give up my chance to hide behind an anonymous screen name, or maybe the thought I had something to offer the other members / visitors.

Unlike Kadman I have met with Boards posters and even supplied on site advice and some quotes for proposed projects, one was accepted but due to an error on my part I got the start date wrong.

There were no tears of woe, on others I supplied costed reports and advice that I would normally charge for.

Your claim and I quote :

"in my experience, people who constantly boast about their skills, experience, qualifications, physical attributes or anything else, are either exaggerating, lying or trying to compensate for their other insecurities or inadequacies."

I can not recall doing any of the above except for a brief bit of banter with Kadman that included the many rare books we both own and for myself I do refer to on occasion.

The day you can provide me with your qualifications to carry out an online medical diagnosis on a person or people you have never met (if such a miracle exists) then I will take it as a valid observation, until then my equal qualification suggests that you are the type who wants the red Ferrari but doen't have the class to forget owners of such extensions of their manhood never boast about the MPG.

The knowledge exchanged on this forum be it based on a lifetimes experience in a Profession or a lucky find on "Google" that enabled a DIY person to carry out any form of home improvement is very interesting and yes I have learned from the posts of others and the many links they have posted, some for products or products at prices I did not know existed, to them I say Thank You.

There are times that if full information on a topic was disclosed it could confuse the matter being discussed, or worse cause a person to believe they have the ability to carry out a dangerous attempt to do a DIY repair and end up causing or being caused serious injury.

You state that you advised di11on to use the services of a Professional no less than twice, that was suggested by most others already and if you felt you had to say something to add you could have posted an agreement with the previous suggestions.

I fail to understand why you felt it so important to attempt at quoting from building tables that on my reading you don't understand ?

In my opinion if Kadman had quoted the information he (in my view) rightly declined to do, it may have further confused the person who asked the original question, the very same as I have very often declined to post what has taken me some fourty years to learn.

As you appear to claim to be such a knowlegable person in contruction terms methods, like Kadman I will take the possibility of being Banned by using an old constructive construction term, Foxtrot Oscar.

Yours Sincerely,

Peter Crawley,

www.crawleyandsons.com

tapest

Hi Guys
Just my 2 cents worth. All replies to questions I have asked are appreciated. Naturally some will be of more use to me than others, but I am thankfull for the time & trouble taken and indeed the willingness to give advice in the first place. This applies to all good natured posters. If I may single out Rooferpete and Kadman, All their advice to me in the past has been "spot on", But (I risk causing offence here) if, on the other hand I disagree with what they recommend, I have enough sense to research the matter further. I have at least been warned, and I take that warning seriously. I have been around tradesmen for many, many years and naturally one picks up usefull information / tips along the way. I have learned enough now to know how much I really don't know.
As regards getting yourselves banned....Don't you dare !! You pair are better than google, If you don't know, you'll give a personal opinion(and you make that clear) and more importantly point in the right direction.
I, for one, have come to rely on and value your imput. I must confess though, that I have come to taking you for granted ("I'll run it past the guys") and for this I tender apology, but that's human nature, I'm sure you'll agree, and I doubt if that would really bother you. So no more of this "getting banned" rubbish OK??
On a lighter note, I enjoy the friendly banter/ sarcastic comments between you guys...most entertaining. And at the risk of giving the "Roo" a compliment, What's this:

"I further envy his obvious skills and ability to use timber in such a way that brings forth the beauty that hides behind the bark on the trees around us today and those that stood proud on our country thousands of years ago."

Almost poetic...mental picture forming....3 stories up, ridge tile in one hand, pointing trowel in the other and Milton in the back pocket....Oh the hidden depths
Now chill out guys....you are needed here
t

kadman

rooferPete wrote:

As you appear to claim to be such a knowlegable person in contruction terms methods, like Kadman I will take the possibility of being Banned by using an old constructive construction term, Foxtrot Oscar.

QUOTE]

At the risk of a double banning, I would like to concur with my esteemed colleague, on his suggestion.

Foxtrot Oscar....yeah , roger that, over and out.:

I would be interested to know from Rooferpete, what collectors reference book you acquired that little anecdote from. I have searched my books and cannot seem to find such a " phrase ".

I suspect it may be a dickensian saying, perhaps such a retort may come from the cook in Oliver Twist, when asked to serve more gruel.;)

Never in the history of the boards ( I suspect, this is only my opinion, and is not to be regarded as gospel ) has there been a double banning on a single thread. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Does that mean that Rookad can officially start making money for the chrimbo instead of giving away free info here:rolleyes:

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

I regret to say but having viewed the sample of titles in your library I reckoned they may be a bit "Up Market" to decipher using standard means of communication , as for the internet ? Y'all will spend a long time searchin .

Hi tapest,

Thank you for your kind post, I know my description of Kadman's featured items on his web site may read a touch poetic but in all honesty I really do wish I had the time, patience and skills to take what many would throw away and turn into what are really works of art.

As to my fitting a ridge tile ????? How Dare You, that description is missing the vital ingredient, lighting cigarette clinging between the lips .

Seriously,

I know I am not infallable and I am thankful that I don't have all the answers, if I did my life would be very boring.

I also know that Boards will survive without me and maybe even Kadman, however I have made it very clear that I am not posting with the hidden agenda of seeking business and I refuse to discuss prices.

I will for as long as the moderators allow me correct or question posts that have what appears to be knowledgeable information posted by anyone who I believe is providing information that may have a detrimental effect on a person or property.

I will also enjoy posting what some find useful and may if nothing else set them thinking about how they are approaching their project, nobody has to take the advice given but I will not sit here touch typing and then read a load of total nonsense without stating my opinion or asking relevent questions of the poster.

For that I can not and will not apologise.

.

mad m

Well lets all shake hands and move on,rooferpete/kadman you both dont need to explain yourselfs(well to me anyway).Most in here can see you both have a lot of experience between both of your good selfs and we appreciate the advice in past,present and future.Lets just say we are all like a bottle of red,gets better with age.

kadman

Hi Rooferpete, hi Madm,

I love that sig madm, slobit, dobit, and leggit....brilliant.
Rooferpete maybe Rookad can employ madm to do our pr work for us..should be interesting.

At least we'd have some one to blame if the threads go pearshaped.

Oh I think we'll stick around alright, after all someone has to convert the masses.

kadman

C Fodder

:eek:

Good god I didn't realise that I was causing so much trouble giving an opinion on a subject where no real technical detail had been discussed yet.

I always thought that internet forums were for opinion and ideas not always 100% fact. silly me

kadman

C Fodder wrote:

:eek:

Good god I didn't realise that I was causing so much trouble giving an opinion on a subject where no real technical detail had been discussed yet.

I always thought that internet forums were for opinion and ideas not always 100% fact. silly me

Hi C fodder,

I would not call light hearted banter, trouble. Your comment allowed me the opportunity for a bit of a laugh. From my point of view,it is not the norm for using that size timber now, in any floor situation.

Its akin to me saying to an IT professional, " can I use my makita plunge Router in my network set up ":D

Any way enough said on the matter, any offense towards your post or you, was not intended.

kadman:)

patrido

C Fodder wrote:

:eek:

Good god I didn't realise that I was causing so much trouble giving an opinion on a subject where no real technical detail had been discussed yet.

I always thought that internet forums were for opinion and ideas not always 100% fact. silly me

nah C Fodder, that rule only applies to the rest of the internet. In here, rules are different. You have to have 25 years experience to express an opinion in here. Why, just seconds after your post, people all over the country were erecting roofs with undersized timbers... future generations will read about the great sag of 2005.

for shame C Fodder

rooferPete

Hi C Fodder,

There was nothing wrong with your post because you gave information that you knew applied to some attic conversions.

I too have seen attics coverted with 5" x 2" ceiling joists used as the floor joists and they worked well because they did not span any large area and were usually part of a cut roof.

The extra strength was obtained by using the studded walls inside the roof purlins (room side) and in some cases steel straps were used to fix the ceiling joists to the purlin or the rafters.

What you didn't do was try to advise di11on about load bearing of different sizes of timbers that really had nothing to do with the question asked, you posted in good faith based on your observation and long may you continue to do so because your observation and memory can be a great help to others.

A long post comprising of basically rubbish based on part knowledge gained from partial reading of what can be complex data.

Instead of reading the previous posts and either passing on because you have nothing to offer or enforcing the opinions of the previous posters with your own that a professional Engineer was needed for safety or just good building practice.

As usual Patrido did not read the previous posts, but instead of typing where he is wrong in the last post I will give him the chance to correct his own drival.

.

patrido

good man spooferPete... if you can't win by attacking the argument, then attack the person.

rooferPete

Hi Patrido,

On Boards.ie I am known by three names, one being my screen name or handle rooferPete, the others being Peter or Mr. Crawley.

Might I suggest that you stay within those parameters ?

I happen to use my real name and contact details, there is no need to try and appear smart by changing any of letters in my name, in fact you have just proved how childish you really are.

.

mad m

patrido wrote:

spooferPete...

Yup no need for name calling.After all we are adults,arent we?

Stoner

For my two cent, what I can see is that start of this thread there was a bit of a big deal made about patridos comment, I think this got up his nose a bit, and it might have gotten up mine too had it happened to me.
The experience of some is often shoved down the neck of other posters this can be annoying.
I also do feel that some people are looking for work here regardless of what they say time and time again.
I know people who get work here, and I know people who have come here looking for people to do work for them, why show links to your workplace, have more than one name ot a name with a trade in it etc I'm actually surprised that this row took so long to happen. I dont think there is any harm in looking for and getting work here I'm not commenting on it or the rules, but it's obvious that it happens here.
I like this forum, I try to answer questions on electrical items as I have some experience in this area, I also comment on things I'm no expert on and other suggestions on these threads have shown my lack of knowledge in these areas. I still feel that a general informed comment is allowed within this forum.
What can happen is that people respond to a general comment and their response can seem very condescending. In fact no offence to patrido, but he was kind of laughed at. I know that people are going to respond by saying that you should not comment if your not right etc but it is just a forum to discuss things, people have to decide what value they place on that advice themselves.

Macy

Staying out of the bitch fight.... To the op, I'd be suspicious of any builder that won't work off proper plans drawn up by an engineer or architect. I really don't know what possible logic they could use, bar they want to take short cuts themselves.

patrido

Stoner wrote:

In fact no offence to patrido, but he was kind of laughed at. I know that people are going to respond by saying that you should not comment if your not right etc but it is just a forum to discuss things, people have to decide what value they place on that advice themselves.

thanks for your input Stoner.

it's good to hear that i wasn't the only one with a few suspicions. But to be fair, I don't think there is any doubt about the experience and the willingness to help of certain people, and if all links, email addresses, phone numbers, etc, were removed, it would remove any hint of suspicion about their motives. there seems to be lots of other professionals posting here and on other boards, who don't give any personal details out.

you're right, i did get my nose out of joint... i suppose doubly so, because despite what was being claimed, my original post was 100% correct. up to 6m in normal circumstances, commonly available timber can be used. small basic changes have to be made for things like dormers and partitions. beyond that different arrangements are required, and usually they involve steel. this information (as opposed to advice, which is what I charge people for day to day) is 100% correct.

having a degree in engineering and a lot of experience, i say that with confidence. i know that doesn't make me an authority of any kind as i'm not specifically a structural engineer, but unlike most readers of the span tables, i not only know how to read them, but have a sound understanding of the engineering principles behind them.

i could have tolerated some abuse if i was actually encouraging someone to act on this information alone, but i specifically told anyone reading not to act on it, but to employ a professional engineer to discuss all the issues. i thought this was so important that i made sure to say it twice, even though the previous posters had also said it.

i didn't counter the claims being made at the time, because I believe that in the heat of some arguments you will get no satisfaction, and it would have been a waste of time.

I apologise to everyone for my part in making things worse than they needed to be.

kadman

Hi Patrido, hi Stoner,

It appears to me boys , that you are inclined to believe that I am posting here for the benefit of advertising for, or attracting work. If that is your opinion of me , be man enough to say so specifically.

I have already challenged Patrido to prove, either by posting a thread, or indeed a poll, or anyone else for that matter, to prove the loose accusations about trolling for work.

I can absolutely guarantee you that you wont find one person to post, that they have been charged for any information or advice given by me. So either put up or shut up on that score, if it is directed towards me.

I assume that your quote " you're right i did get my nose out of joint", is an admission that you left out a pertinent piece of information in relation to the understanding of the span tables. Would you accept that.

I would not agree that your original post was correct, as it left out a very important piece of data while reading the span tables. I dont see it as a fruitful exercise arguing with you any more on the point. But what I will do is post the span table, and relevent addition on the bottom of the table, where it clearly states.

" This table does not allow for pointloads such as partitions, or loads from dormercheek studs ect"

I assume that you were quoting from IS 444 span tables, if I am incorrect, please advise me.

As you have stated that " you know how to read them ". How did you manage to leave out the reference to the loads issue.

I am not posting in reference to any of your beliefs in your level of knowledge in relation to building construction. I have now formed my own opinion on that score. But more so to your vague assumptions that I am seeking work through the boards. I have not made a personal attack on you, or your reasons for posting on the boards. But on the information you are posting.

I suspect that you are envious of certain posters here, and that you realise that you will never attain the level of understanding and professionalism that they have reached, and that is the real reason for your nose being out of joint.

I have posted the span tables for other posters, so that they may see for them selves whether the point in question that was left out by you, was important or not. I would welcome your confirmation as to whether we are talking about the same tables. I believe we are, but am open to correction on that.

Tim

patrido

hi kadman, yes, that's the one.

there are lots and lots of other details that could have been added to the information i posted, based on all sorts of load and support scenarios. but i was answering the question that was asked... "do we need steel". my answer was... only an engineer can discuss *all the issues*, but *normally* up to 6m you probably don't (need steel), and beyond 6m you probably do.

the original poster did not ask about dormers or any other type of load. and i was not doing a specification for him, or even giving him instructions. i gave an example from the tables, to show that in any event much bigger than the previously mentioned 7x2 would be required.

btw, dormers and partitions parallel to the joists are usually dealt with by doubling up the relevant joists, so again steel is not usually needed in normal circumstances.

i resent being persistently and pedantically asked to justify this post, as if i was being employed by the original poster, and was being negligent in not discussing all sorts of scenarios that were not part of the original question. This in my humble opinion is missing the point of internet forums, and missing specific references in several posts to getting professional advice. I'm always very careful in this regard, and sometimes I feel like my signature should be "go get an electrician/engineer/whatever"

I totally accept that you may never have solicited or taken payment from any boarder, but by having it in your signature, your website is always only one click away, and it specifically invites work on the first page.

you are quite right to be proud of your achievements and skills, but advertising is against the ethos of boards, and by removing the link you would be seen to be beyond reproach.

only one other poster on this board (or any other board that i know of) engages in this practice and he has admitted taking work (even if it did fall through at the last minute).

kind regards
patrick

rooferPete

Hi Macy,

You will find I have posted photos of a truss roof that does not need steel support for di11on to view and get a better idea of what I meant by removing structural timbers.

I fully agree with your post, all builders should be willing to work as instructed by an Architect or Engineer, I would go further by adding the professionals can add a comfort zone for the contractor as he is not responsible for working to the drawings and specification provided.


Hi All,

There are some who rightly think I post my name and a link to my web site looking for work, the reason I say "rightly" is because human nature being what it is that is how it appears.

My reason for posting using the name rooferPete, my real name and my web address is based on principle, I believe that if I am going to post in the manner I do and with the reference to products or services especially when I post in the negative the manufacturer retailer, or consumer should have the right of reply to a real person.

While I did survey a roof for a Boards member I supplied a detailed specification and costing having read his surveyors report which was a good one but had a costing on it that was a portion of my figure.

The number of people who have sent me private emails asking me to do work for them is too many to count, they all have received what is almost a stock answer I don't post for the advertising benefit.

Unlike others I don't wait for a topic to appear and PM the person advising them of the range of services I offer, BTW I was wrong there was another member I visited who had a leak in a roof and we discussed the cause and options available.

The chances are I would have been recommended there anyway as another tradesman I know was working on the house and would have called me anyway to see if I was available.

I will be away for a few days on a training course related to another business I have, may I suggest that whoever has an objection to signatures such as mine hold a poll, if the result is for the format then I will leave it, if the majority would prefer I remove my name and web link I will do so.

The reason I am suggesting this is not as a challenge to Patrido (who in my view by the way he posted appeared to be acting as a professional) but to avoid any embarrasment to the moderators who gave their permission for me to use that web link as my signature.

I have many more domain names that I use for my contracting business and still further more that relate to other business interests I have in Ireland, New Zealand, and America.

So it might be a good idea to broaden the poll to all web links or somebody else may find themselves asked to remove the link and take offence.

For the record,

I stand by every post on this and other threads as they are all made in good faith.

.

Eve1

I have to admit that I feel quite reassured when people display their weblink in their signature as it means they have nothing to hide and they are providing advise that they would stand by. The web is such a faceless place that adding personal details in signatures has created a unique community atmosphere in the gardening DIY section, that has built up this level of willingness to help each other. I personally wouldn't want it any other way. On the same token the web is faceless and therefore people can cause offence without realising it. I think you should all kiss and make up

Eve;)

Builderwoman!

I second Eve1's opinion above. I do find it reassuring if people give their weblink in their signature. It shows they are prepared to stand over their advice. I've only recently joined these boards and have found great advice/tips from one and all, Eve, Patridio, Yop, CJ, Mothman, Rooferpete etc etc. Rooferpete and Patridio even took the time to email me personally which I very very much appreciated. Both gave very good advice/opinions to me. I have to say this is a great forum. Anyone who shares and gives advice gives it because they feel they have something to contibute. We have all found answers to some of our building dilemmas here or at least a different way of looking at the challenges we continue to meet on a daily basis!! Like many others have said you should always seek the services of professionals and get several different inspections, quotes etc but I personally also value the opnions of people on the boards who are the same as ourselves: "trying to build the best house we can on a budget, looking for the best value and advice and where possible taking the advice of many others in similar circumstances into account when making decisions". I also value the opinions of those in the trade who take the time to post. (They restore my faith in tradesmen as so many I have found wouldn't even answer their mobile or return a call to a potential customer, let alone give advice or opinions) Sharing information is what the www and this forum is all about. Please guys, don't get side tracked, let's get back to the business of doing just that. Listen to the women...........................
you know we really do know best.....!!! JOKE JOKE!!!

kadman

Hi Patrido,

If my signature is so offensive to you, I have no objection if you contact the mods or admins, and if they request me to remove it, I will. I would have no problem in conforming to their wishes. Just for the record, I never contacted any one to request the format , or use of my weblink.

I would also be willing to abide by the result of any poll on the issue of web signatures. So get polling Patrido.

And " I " am fully aware of the concepts of timberframe design, and the use of joists in parrallel arrangements. And I am so glad that you used the descriptive term " usually ".

You appear to be very fond of throwing accusations around, about soliciting for work. But you are extremely slow at giving foundation to your accusations. As I have said before, either put up or shut up, on the work trolling issue.

kadman:)

seamus

Heh, I love this place, you never know what's going to happen next.

I did explain to Patrido earlier on today, so there's probably no need to further defend yourselves.

boards.ie's position is as Victor posted:

Victor wrote:

Regarding advertising, yes it is generally frowned upon on boards.ie. However, it is generally accepted that someone who is a member of the community, who gives as much as they take, are prefectly entitled to include a single reference to their website in their sig. I would be disappointed if nobody made any money or other gain out of contact they made through the community.

When people start discussing things in their area of expertise and business, small things can quickly turn into big arguments, and you'd be surprised how childish people get. The Web Hosting board was shut down for exactly those reasons - threads like this where an innocent question somehow erupts into accusations and eventually libel. I'd hate to see that happen here.

di11on, if you still have questions or comments about your issue, let me know and I can strip out the crap from this thread for you.

WhiteWashMan

kadman wrote:

You appear to be very fond of throwing accusations around, about soliciting for work. But you are extremely slow at giving foundation to your accusations. As I have said before, either put up or shut up, on the work trolling issue.

kadman:)

i would also suggest you pipe down as well.

anymore guff from anyone here and there will be bannings.

if anyone has an issue, then either put it on the feedback form, log a helpdesk ticket, or contact one of the mods.

other than that, stop whinging and bítching at each other.
god, it like a bleedin creche in here...

yop

The first bee utch figh in DIY!! Reminds me of Soccer boards!!! Everyones advice and expertise is invaluable, in fairness talking to all 3 involved I have gained masses of knowledge from all the "contestants" in this bout!

I think that as Seamus said with the serious amount of knowledge and advise the lads have given us it really should not be an issue with their websites been in the sigs.

Best of luck to all, great to see that DIY can generate passionate discussion!! Up she flew

Builderwoman!

Agree with Yop that Patridio, Kadman and Rooferpete (and yourself Yop and so many others) have given me invaluable advice since I joined. I hope all of ye will continue to do so. Everyone should let this post die off and if as the mods said if di110n needs to have the advice edited they can help. Life is too short and this house building is too much flippin hard work to continue with this arguement!!!