Protein Shakes

retenzo

Should i only take protein shakes before and after workout or should i take it days i do not workout also? i workout 3 times a week....

PJG

if you listen to the marketing companies 'take it 24*7'.

The most important time for protein is the post workout. If you get this from a shake or from a well balanced diet, its up to you.

To justify the cost of the shakes I believe you have to be working out at a really high intensity or a professional Athlete.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

if you listen to the marketing companies 'take it 24*7'.

The most important time for protein is the post workout. If you get this from a shake or from a well balanced diet, its up to you.

To justify the cost of the shakes I believe you have to be working out at a really high intensity or a professional Athlete.

Woah, we're not in Afghanistan here. Minimum wage is what, E7+? 10lbs protein is E75 which is about 160 scoops. Assuming you are "mad" and take a whopping three sevings a day, that still works out to about E1.40 a day. Considering this is cheaper than a single chicken fillet in a supermarket, I don't think the economy would crash with this regimen...

Post workout is the best time, take a longer acting source like red meat or chicken etc 1 hour pre workout to fuel the workout (with carbs obviously). However, if you're on the run and can't get a meal a shake is a cheap substitute. (Happy meal is way more expensive, way less nutritional so let's keep price in perspective).

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

Woah, we're not in Afghanistan here. Minimum wage is what, E7+? 10lbs protein is E75 which is about 160 scoops. Assuming you are "mad" and take a whopping three sevings a day, that still works out to about E1.40 a day. Considering this is cheaper than a single chicken fillet in a supermarket, I don't think the economy would crash with this regimen...

The most common whey protein stocked in shops and online are about E45 –E55 for a 2lb or 908g tub. Maximuscle Promax for example (one of the better ones compared to crap that’s on offer as it contains digestive enzymes so we can actually break down and use some of the protein and take some pressure of the kidneys and gut) which retails at about E48 which works out at about E5 a day and not . Most of which can’t be broken down and gets passed out when we go to the toilet.

Fact
‘Whey Products. Whey, a by-product of cheese-making, contains protein, lactose, minerals (e.g., calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, zinc), vitamins, and traces of milkfat (1-3,6). The composition of whey products varies according to the milk source, type of cheese, and manufacturing process.’


Whey is a by product of cheese making that farmers fed to pigs and was disposed of as quickly and quietly as possible until nutritional companies discovered we can modify it and sell it to body builders. Still half of the whey produced in the US goes into the sewer system.

So whey powder can bought as a raw ingredient by manufacturing companies for $3.97 per pounds which converts to E3.27.
http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/whey_protein50.htm

So nutritional companies buy it in bulk for a hell of a lot less that E3.27 add some sweetener and flavourings and retail it at E24 per pound. That quite a mark up !! Suppose someone has to pay for all the glossy magazine advertising and double blind (biased) tests !!!

hardtrainer

PJG wrote:

...Maximuscle Promax for example (one of the better ones compared to crap that’s on offer as it contains digestive enzymes so we can actually break down and use some of the protein and take some pressure of the kidneys and gut)..... Most of which can’t be broken down and gets passed out when we go to the toilet.

Fact
‘Whey Products. Whey, a by-product of cheese-making, contains protein, lactose, minerals (e.g., calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, zinc), vitamins, and traces of milkfat (1-3,6). The composition of whey products varies according to the milk source, type of cheese, and manufacturing process.’

So whey powder can bought as a raw ingredient by manufacturing companies for $3.97 per pounds which converts to E3.27.
http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/whey_protein50.htm

So nutritional companies buy it in bulk for a hell of a lot less that E3.27 add some sweetener and flavourings and retail it at E24 per pound. That quite a mark up !! Suppose someone has to pay for all the glossy magazine advertising and double blind (biased) tests !!!

Ok a few points..

The addition of digestive enzymes doesn't help you break anything down. You produce your own digestive enzymes in your stomach which break down protein. The idea that you cannot break down some of the protein and you simply pass it out when you use the toilet is not true. Most of the protein is broken down (if it isn't, it's because of the quantity taken in etc) but that doesn't mean it will all be used. The kidneys denature the excess amino acids and you pass the nitrogen out as urea.

As for the source of whey protein. It's true, it is a byproduct but that is not the same as the end product you buy from the nutritional companies aimed at bodybuilders etc. The protein content of the whey byproduct you mention is far lower than the final protein concentration of the protein powders they sell. In most cases the raw material is filtered numerous times and using a number of different and expensive methods before being air dried to produce the powder. The addition of sugars serve not only to make the shake taste nice but they also aid in the digestion. It you were to eat 100% protein, you'd have a hard time digesting it.

These companies do make a lot money, but you haven't taken into account the often very complicated filtration methods employed or the fact that this must be done under tightly regulated conditions if they wish to see the protein for human consumption.

PJG

hardtrainer wrote:

Ok a few points..

The addition of digestive enzymes doesn't help you break anything down. You produce your own digestive enzymes in your stomach which break down protein. The idea that you cannot break down some of the protein and you simply pass it out when you use the toilet is not true. Most of the protein is broken down (if it isn't, it's because of the quantity taken in etc) but that doesn't mean it will all be used. The kidneys denature the excess amino acids and you pass the nitrogen out as urea.

As for the source of whey protein. It's true, it is a byproduct but that is not the same as the end product you buy from the nutritional companies aimed at bodybuilders etc. The protein content of the whey byproduct you mention is far lower than the final protein concentration of the protein powders they sell. In most cases the raw material is filtered numerous times and using a number of different and expensive methods before being air dried to produce the powder. The addition of sugars serve not only to make the shake taste nice but they also aid in the digestion. It you were to eat 100% protein, you'd have a hard time digesting it.

These companies do make a lot money, but you haven't taken into account the often very complicated filtration methods employed or the fact that this must be done under tightly regulated conditions if they wish to see the protein for human consumption.

OK first point.

So the just put the digestive enzymes in for the fun of it !


Did you get a chance to check out the break down of the whey protein on the link?
http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/whey_protein50.htm


this retails at E3.27 per pound


Nutritional Facts:
(Serving: 1 scoop, 26 grams)
Calories: 104
Calories from fat: 14
Total fat: 1.5g
Saturated fat: 0.8g
Cholesterol: 39mg
Sodium: 42mg
Total carbs: 2g
Lactose: 1g
Protein: 21g
Phosphorous: 85 mg
Calcium: 119 mg
Magnesium: 17 mg
Potassium: 157 mg
Iron: 0 .3
Riboflavin: 0.3 mg
Vitamin A: 17 IU
Amino Acid Profile:
(per 100 grams of protein)
Alanine: 4540 mg
Arginine: 2,209 mg
Aspartic Acid: 9,939 mg
Cysteine: 2,331 mg
Glutamic Acid:
11,411 mg
Glutamine: 4,417 mg
Glycine: 1,718 mg
Histidine: 1,840 mg
Isolucine: 5,767 mg
Luecine: 10,184 mg
Lysine: 8,466 mg
Methionine: 1,963 mg
Phenylalanine:190 mg
Proline: 5,513 mg
Serine: 4,417 mg
Threonine: 6,012 mg
Tryptophan:1,595 mg
Tyrosine: 2,822 mg
Valine: 5,399 mg
Protein Values:
Biological value (BV):104
PDCAAS: 1.0
Protein Efficiency: 3.6
Net Protein Utilization:92
Protein Digestibility: 95
Alpha-Lactoglobulin:
18,300 15-20%,
Beta-Lactalbumin:
14,000 50%
Immunoglobulins (IgH):
~150,000 10%
Lactoferrin:
77,000 1%
Lactoperoxidase:
77,500 1%
Glycomacropeptides:
8000 15%
Protease-peptone:
n/a <1%
Cellular Growth Factor:
5,000-74,000

This is the one that retails at E24 per pound from a body building nutritional company

Label Information
Servings per container: 30
Serving size: 1 scoop (30g)
Amount per serving:
Energy 120 kcal
Protein (on dry matter) 24.3 g
Carbohydrate 2.04 g
(of which sugars) 0.81 g
Fats 2.07 g
(of which saturates) 1.23 g
Fibre 0 g
Sodium 0.18 g

L-Aspartic Acid 10.5 g
L-Threonine* 6.5 g
L-Serine 5.2 g
L-Glutamine Acid 11.9 g
L-Glutamine 6.9 g
L-Proline 6.1 g
L-Glycine 2.0 g
L-Alanine 5.2 g
L-Valine* ** 5.5 g
L-Methionine* 2.4 g
L-Cystine* 2.7 g
L-Isoleucine* ** 5.8 g
L-Leucine* ** 11.4 g
L-Tyrosine* 3.3 g
L-Phenylalanine* 3.5 g
L-Lysine* 9.1 g
L-Histidine 2.3 g
L-Arginine 2.8 g
L-Trytophan* 2.0 g
**sum of Branch Chain Amino Acids (BCAA) 22.7 g
*sum of Essential Amino Acids (EAA) 52.2 g



The top table is the breakdown of a 26g serving and the bottom table is a 30g serving can you point out exactly where the difference is? Keeping in mind the cheaper one has

Biological value (BV):104
PDCAAS: 1.0
Protein Efficiency: 3.6
Net Protein Utilization:92
Protein Digestibility: 95

Both are for human consumption and just because a nutritional company uses buzz words like ion-exchange and micro filtration doesn't make it any better all marketing hype.

Again do you like Easygainer have a commercial interest in promoting ‘protein supplements’ ?

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

this retails at E3.27 per pound




Both are for human consumption and just because a nutritional company uses buzz words like ion-exchange and micro filtration doesn't make it any better all marketing hype.

Again do you like Easygainer have a commercial interest in promoting ‘protein supplements’ ?

Oh Lordy me, the ignorance. Just because they're different qualities doesn't make them better no?

I know a site where it's as low as $2/lb of whey protein concentrate but the ion exchange whey isolate is $8.30/lb - www.trueprotein.com

So you're telling me that the same company is marketing the same product of the same quality but just giving different names to processes and charging accordingly?

Case in point. Nutrisport whey has a bv of 90, that's less than an egg. Pure isolate has a bv of 154 of even over 160. This is 60% greater than an egg.

The quality of whey protein alone varies greatly and it affects not only how it is absorbed but also how it is used by the body. To ignore the difference between whey concentrate and isolate is to ignore the difference between primary and secondary proteins.

Finally, as for your sly comment about my commercial interest in selling protein, of course I'm going to pipe up when someone insinuates it costs E24/lb of protein in Ireland when I sell it for E7.5/lb for one with isolates... A 300% price difference is a bit inaccurate on your part.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

Oh Lordy me, the ignorance. Just because they're different qualities doesn't make them better no?

I know a site where it's as low as $2/lb of whey protein concentrate but the ion exchange whey isolate is $8.30/lb - www.trueprotein.com

So you're telling me that the same company is marketing the same product of the same quality but just giving different names to processes and charging accordingly?

Case in point. Nutrisport whey has a bv of 90, that's less than an egg. Pure isolate has a bv of 154 of even over 160. This is 60% greater than an egg.

The quality of whey protein alone varies greatly and it affects not only how it is absorbed but also how it is used by the body. To ignore the difference between whey concentrate and isolate is to ignore the difference between primary and secondary proteins.

Finally, as for your sly comment about my commercial interest in selling protein, of course I'm going to pipe up when someone insinuates it costs E24/lb of protein in Ireland when I sell it for E7.5/lb for one with isolates... A 300% price difference is a bit inaccurate on your part.

O we have a hit a sore spot, I'm ignorant now. Can’t have a healthy debate.

The facts don’t lie, read the nutritional comparison above.

Again you mention about the absorption, look back on my point about digestive enzymes.

Then you saying about my ‘sly comments’ aren’t we getting bitchy now. Hormone imbalance maybe? Need some advice?

Then you say I’m insinuating that it costs E24/lb of protein in Ireland. This again is fact look it up on www.fitnessireland.com or visit most stores that stock sports supplements.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

O we have a hit a sore spot, I'm ignorant now. Can’t have a healthy debate.

The facts don’t lie, read the nutritional comparison above.

Again you mention about the absorption, look back on my point about digestive enzymes.

Then you saying about my ‘sly comments’ aren’t we getting bitchy now. Hormone imbalance maybe? Need some advice?

Then you say I’m insinuating that it costs E24/lb of protein in Ireland. This again is fact look it up on www.fitnessireland.com or visit most stores that stock sports supplements.

:rolleyes: you didn't answer ANY of my arguments. Answer the following:

You claim there is no difference between manufacturing processes of whey as regards the end product. To this I'm quoting not only price differences but a massive difference in bv as a result. How can you explain this away? (Ignore digestive enzmes they cost next to nothing)

Fitness Ireland is not the only protein supplier. Even away from my E7.50/lb it's E9.50/lb on Capel st. and less again on Camden st. I think it is. You just quoted the most overpriced supplement on the most expensive site - this is an unfair comparison. Want me to name more?

Finally, yes I do have a hormone imbalance. I have more testosterone than oestogen and estrogen - unfortunately I have functional gonads, I'm sorry if you don't have this rare condition known as masculinity.

I'll let you away with just answering the first two.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

:rolleyes: you didn't answer ANY of my arguments. Answer the following:

You claim there is no difference between manufacturing processes of whey as regards the end product. To this I'm quoting not only price differences but a massive difference in bv as a result. How can you explain this away? (Ignore digestive enzmes they cost next to nothing)

Fitness Ireland is not the only protein supplier. Even away from my E7.50/lb it's E9.50/lb on Capel st. and less again on Camden st. I think it is. You just quoted the most overpriced supplement on the most expensive site - this is an unfair comparison. Want me to name more?

Finally, yes I do have a hormone imbalance. I have more testosterone than oestogen and estrogen - unfortunately I have functional gonads, I'm sorry if you don't have this rare condition known as masculinity.

I'll let you away with just answering the first two.

I’ll answer any question you ask.

Which manufacturing process are you talking about? I will agree that some of manufacturing processes do add value but does not justifies the price.

Fitness Ireland represents the average price for supplements I can also find plenty of sites at similar cost. Workout world is much the same and Tony Quinn stores.

Masculinity, mmm

You mention in another tread your sport is body building and you are competing next year. Firstly this is not a sport; I would see it quite similar to the Rose of Tralee. Maybe we should debate this when it’s in the two weeks before your competition. Maybe you could run a little diary and tell us all about getting your ‘fake spray tan done’, your full body wax (including bikini line) and practicing your posing routine in front of the mirror for hours on end. Masculinity yeah right.

I know this goes on as I have coached guys preparing for these contests. Now these guys’s do need whey protein and lots of it. But back to the point at the beginning the average guy starting out in the gym doesn’t.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

I’ll answer any question you ask.

Which manufacturing process are you talking about? I will agree that some of manufacturing processes do add value but does not justifies the price.

ion exchange whey isolate or micro filtration

Fitness Ireland represents the average price for supplements I can also find plenty of sites at similar cost. Workout world is much the same and Tony Quinn stores. no these are the most expensive due to either their market position or location

Masculinity, mmm

You mention in another tread your sport is body building and you are competing next year. Firstly this is not a sport; I would see it quite similar to the Rose of Tralee. Maybe we should debate this when it’s in the two weeks before your competition. Maybe you could run a little diary and tell us all about getting your ‘fake spray tan done’, your full body wax (including bikini line) and practicing your posing routine in front of the mirror for hours on end. Masculinity yeah right. you spar for your sport, right? how masculine is it to tog down and get sweaty in a ring with another man? Any sport sounds stupid/homoerotic/pointless when you try to strip it down. You forget the dieting, the bone crushing workouts etc. And you think this is a beauty contest? You wouldn't last one leg day with me; even if the end result is a display of the muscles, it's a culmination of blood and guts

I know this goes on as I have coached guys preparing for these contests. Now these guys’s do need whey protein and lots of it. [b/I'm guessing they got their money's worth with your motivational skills and enthusiasm :rolleyes:[/b]But back to the point at the beginning the average guy starting out in the gym doesn’t.The average guy starting out in the gym eats awfully - protein shakes are a start towards a more structured pulse feeding style and a hell of a lot easier than cooking 6 meals a day

.

Mendosa

You mention in another tread your sport is body building and you are competing next year. Firstly this is not a sport; I would see it quite similar to the Rose of Tralee. Maybe we should debate this when it’s in the two weeks before your competition. Maybe you could run a little diary and tell us all about getting your ‘fake spray tan done’, your full body wax (including bikini line) and practicing your posing routine in front of the mirror for hours on end. Masculinity yeah right.

I know this goes on as I have coached guys preparing for these contests. Now these guys’s do need whey protein and lots of it. But back to the point at the beginning the average guy starting out in the gym doesn’t.[/QUOTE]


The average guy starting out in the gym needs protein, its fundamental, to achieving any of the goals anyone has when training in a gym. Without ample protein intake any newcomer to a gym that pushes their body to limits they are not used to will lose muscle. This is not an idea I have adapted from "glossy magazines", its common knowledge. Furthermore I think that someone who thinks that bodybuilding isn't a sport shouldn't offer advice to someone who does see it as a sport and is preparing to compete for a competition. It is not only hipocritical but sly, to take money from someone to prepare them for a bodybuilding contest, and then bitch about the sport when they aren't around. I don't believe that you have ever trained anyone for a bodybulding competition, no one with your attitude could. After pretty much saying that you exploit bodybuilders trying to get into contest shape for money, I can't see many other people believing anymore of your boasts, or listening to any of your second rate advice

PJG

Mendosa wrote:

The average guy starting out in the gym needs protein, its fundamental, to achieving any of the goals anyone has when training in a gym. Without ample protein intake any newcomer to a gym that pushes their body to limits they are not used to will lose muscle. This is not an idea I have adapted from "glossy magazines", its common knowledge. Furthermore I think that someone who thinks that bodybuilding isn't a sport shouldn't offer advice to someone who does see it as a sport and is preparing to compete for a competition. It is not only hipocritical but sly, to take money from someone to prepare them for a bodybuilding contest, and then bitch about the sport when they aren't around. I don't believe that you have ever trained anyone for a bodybulding competition, no one with your attitude could. After pretty much saying that you exploit bodybuilders trying to get into contest shape for money, I can't see many other people believing anymore of your boasts, or listening to any of your second rate advice

Yes I will agree that the average guy needs protein starting out in a gym. I never said they didn’t. What I don’t agree with is that it has to come from Protein shake’s. It can easily come from a change to diet. As for someone training for a bodybuilding event that’s a totally different story.

The guy I helped out was a friend and was not charged. He competed in an event in Dublin recently (about 6 weeks back) in the novice section. Unfortunately he didn’t make the cut that day but next year he’ll be back, I’m sure of it. I’m sure one of you will try and make out how could he do well working with me, the reason he didn’t make the cut is he’s a natural bodybuilder and not naturally gifted with height and broadness. I really have my doubts a lot of the guy’s on show that day were clean. The comments I made about the fake tanning, posing etc I have said it many times to his face and to others who train with us. It’s just regular slagging between lads.
He knows how I feel about bodybuilding, I don’t agree with what he’s doing to his body the extremely high levels of protein are not good for kidneys. The 8 weeks leading up to the competition are crazy, the dieting and dehydration, the amount of stimulants (natural) need just to train due to lack of carbs, the mood swings etc.

As for second rate advice, well that’s your opinion and I’m sure it’s the opinion of hardtrainer and easygainer. If someone is looking for advice on this board I and others can there 2 cents worth. People can take it or leave it.

If you’re going to join this debate please read the previous posts and understand my point’s. This is what I posted

PJG wrote:

if you listen to the marketing companies 'take it 24*7'.

The most important time for protein is the post workout. If you get this from a shake or from a well balanced diet, its up to you.

To justify the cost of the shakes I believe you have to be working out at a really high intensity or a professional Athlete.

Its also great to see you joining in at this stage of the debate and make comments like hypocritical, sly, I’m a liar and exploit people. This doesn’t bother me cause I could care less what your opinion is. What does bother me is you assuming I was charging. If you insist in name calling try and get the facts you’re basing them on right.

poobum

look...i use shakes anways have! find them great! but they wouldnt be needed if you eat right! but ppl tend not to! thats why i think they are good but if you are going to get shakes make sure you get decent ones not ripping you off! shop around! find out what to look for!
lads basically youve gone into a fight about prices...well tbh that waasnt what the guy asked even! like i know your both trying to do you little bit to help! but its realy not necessary to have a go at eachother!
now iv seen easygainer, only for a sec but hes huge! so his way works! but so does pjg's! it depends on where you buy etc!
all the guy wanted to know was when to take his shakes! not whether they were worth it or not!
obiously it would be more worthwhile to go on protein if doing sports etc...but like ppl somethime just want muscle! so they need the necessary foods! and with the way ppl are eating today they realy arent getting the nutrients needed or most arent anyway! so for some protein is a great thing! like most ppl would rather spend a little more and drink the shake and eat the way they used to then competly change their diet! changing your diet is hard! if it was asy we wudnt have so many obese ppl in the world! thats my 2 cents! any problems with my post give me a reply! j
just like to make clear im not taking a side during your fight! just showning my opinions!

PJG

Well said poobum, your more than entitled to give your opinions without someone having a problem.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

, I don’t agree with what he’s doing to his body the extremely high levels of protein are not good for kidneys. The 8 weeks leading up to the competition are crazy, the dieting and dehydration, the amount of stimulants (natural) need just to train due to lack of carbs, the mood swings etc.

.

How do high levels of protein affect the kidneys? Show me the study? My friend is a qualified doctor and said this same thing but when I asked him if he'd seen evidence either first hand or through reports he said none existed. It's a myth and I don't know how it got there. I can imagine taking 700g protein with very little water as is done the last few days before a competition is damaging though, largely due to the lack of water to transport protein and the general dangers of dehydration.

Precontest though is just the same as any other sport. Dehydration is the main problem with bodybuilding these days but it's better than stepping into a ring with a SHW or falling off the back of a horse - every sport has it's dangers, except maybe tennis, so it's unfair to highlight just the extreme sides of a sport.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

How do high levels of protein affect the kidneys? Show me the study? My friend is a qualified doctor and said this same thing but when I asked him if he'd seen evidence either first hand or through reports he said none existed. It's a myth and I don't know how it got there. I can imagine taking 700g protein with very little water as is done the last few days before a competition is damaging though, largely due to the lack of water to transport protein and the general dangers of dehydration.

Precontest though is just the same as any other sport. Dehydration is the main problem with bodybuilding these days but it's better than stepping into a ring with a SHW or falling off the back of a horse - every sport has it's dangers, except maybe tennis, so it's unfair to highlight just the extreme sides of a sport.

Easygainer, you mention unfair, I'm not trying to be unfair in anyway. I have nothing personal in this against you. I have a passion about training, sport (some would say obsession) and nutrition. I’m always looking to learn and message boards (Specilist boards / not this one) are a good way of hearing what others are doing. Debate is healthy as it gets us to think about what we already know and challenges our own ideas. To learn we have got to have an open mind.

Let’s leave out the personal crap and get on with it.


A Statement for Healthcare Professionals From the Nutrition Committee
of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism
of the American Heart Association.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/nutrition/guide/dietary_protein.pdf
Quoting:Summary
Scientific studies do not demonstrate that high-protein diets
without concomitant decreases in caloric intake result in
sustained weight loss or improved health. Most Americans
consume more protein than their bodies need. Extra protein is
not used efficiently by the body and may impose a metabolic
burden on the kidneys and liver. High-protein diets may also
be associated with increased risk for coronary heart disease
due to intakes of saturated fat, cholesterol, and other associated
dietary factors. When diets high in protein are severely
limited in carbohydrates, food choices become restrictive,
and overall nutrient adequacy and long-term palatability are
also of concern.

(This is more in relation to Atkins type diets, but still highlights the effects high protein diets may have)

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/62/71623.htm
http://www.benbest.com/health/kidney.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12148098&dopt=Abstract

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1114&context=uclabiolchem/nutritionbytes I think this one makes most sense as it points out a case for both camps.

Quoting: CONCLUSION
The presented scientific studies clearly indicate that the ingestion of amino acids through protein supplements augments muscle hypertrophy and retention of lean muscle mass, promoting positive nitrogen balance after resistance training. Whey protein has also been shown to provide these effects, although it may not contain the antioxidant benefits of other forms of protein.
However, it is important to note that all of these studies have demonstrated that postexercise protein intake in any form is required to promote muscle anabolism. None advocate the use of a supplement over protein acquired from food. The protein requirement of individuals undergoing resistance training has been estimated to be 1-1.5 g/kg of body weight/day (1). This requirement is easily met in a normal balanced North American or European diet, particularly among athletes due to their increased consumption of food. Both the Tipton et al. and Burke etal. studies have indicated that increased consumption of protein beyond this requirement is unlikely to have an additional positive effect on muscle protein synthesis after resistance exercise. This is most likely because there is a maximal rate of protein synthesis, beyond which the ingestion of more amino acids will not have an effect. In fact, these extra amino acids would simply be excreted, and excess protein ingestion therefore has the capacity to place a significant strain on the kidneys due to the increased concentrations of nitrogen that must be removed from the body. Therefore, whey and other protein supplements should be taken only if protein intake from dietary sources is insufficient to meet the increased protein needs of resistance training.

I accept that some of the articals state that protein causes further complications with people with existing kidney problems. Its a bit like a the 'chicken and egg' theory.

ferdi

alot of bench presses and testical shrinkage going on in this thread!

easygainer, you sound awfully defensive, as if your trying to justify your use of gain-shakes.

RPGGAMER

interesting titbit that stands out in todays post workout mad world..
preworkout= as much as 2 times protein synthesis! (aminos are already circulating at this very anabolic time..training)


big picture with re to muscle growth..
#1 amino acids circulating in blood pretty much all the time
#2 minimise catabolism/breakdown of muscle/proteins from muscle
#3 energy kcal excess for protein syn.

all this equates to the following practical implications

preworkout shake of carbs/protein 30mins before shake after and dinner asap when one hits home. creatine/sugary 5% carbs water drink during(with a pinch of sea salt - to facilitate Creat. uptake and to replace sweat Na loss)

pm for more detail/burning of common training myths

Guv

A few points:

The highest BV possible is 100 +/- 4 hence 104.

The oft quoted 159 figure was a chemical score listed in research as the BV and was an error on the part of the researchers.

$2 per lb is for what exactly? The actual manufacturers i.e. upto $5,000,000,000 in t/o can only sell wpc 75% for around $2.10/lb per 40ft container i.e. 20 MT and the price does not drop anymore than 3-4 cents even if you requested 100 containers. 80% is about 20% more and wpi can be 3 times the price or more.

Bear in mind that there are about 5-8 plants worldwide that can make true isolate and maybe 30-35 that can do 75% -80%.

Shakes are good - not a necessity but convenient.

Competing and not making the grade - no shame in that.

Fitness Ireland are a successful company as are maximuscle
IIRC FI are selling 8lbs atm for 75 euro.

There are co's that will sell the customer 22lbs of wpc 75% for about 75 euro.

Easygainer

RPGGAMER wrote:

interesting titbit that stands out in todays post workout mad world..
preworkout= as much as 2 times protein synthesis! (aminos are already circulating at this very anabolic time..training)


big picture with re to muscle growth..
#1 amino acids circulating in blood pretty much all the time
#2 minimise catabolism/breakdown of muscle/proteins from muscle
#3 energy kcal excess for protein syn.

all this equates to the following practical implications

preworkout shake of carbs/protein 30mins before shake after and dinner asap when one hits home. creatine/sugary 5% carbs water drink during(with a pinch of sea salt - to facilitate Creat. uptake and to replace sweat Na loss)

pm for more detail/burning of common training myths

I dunno. I prefer solid food as much as possible which is why I prefer to keep whey to pwo when you are starving for it. I take low gi carbs and a meat protein an hour before I start my workout and high gi carbs and whey after my workout. Red meat is brilliant for the reason that it is protein and nutrient dense but also digests over a sustained period and gives you energy through the fats in it so those on a low carb diet (like me) don't go around like zombies all the time.

I'll leave Ferdi's comment as it's useless.

I don't have time to read that study but from your analysis I gather that those with kidney problems have it exacerbated by high protein. I don't dispute this, Flex Wheeler is a perfect example. He was a pro bodybuilder born with a genetic kidney disorder (starts with gluco but forget the rest..)... anyways, the drugs and high protein diet made his body deteriorate more rapidly than it would have if he'd played it safe - w/o steroids and high protein he was set for a transplant at 40, he had to get one at 30 though in the end.

Anyone who does law though will show that this is an example of the egg shell skull rule. The high protein diet is not the problem, it is the individual susceptible to it that is...


With regards to the original q in the thread, my first part of this reply gives my opinion...

MisterAnarchy

Some people are paying way over the odds for their protein.
I bought 5lbs of Whey Protein off Bodybuilding.com for $19.99 and its great stuff.