protein drinks

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Im looking for a bit of feedback and help on something , hence my post .
What im wondering is protein drinks are they a good say substitude for a meal ? Do they put on weight ? What is there propose ? What im looking to achieve is weight loss from the gym and tone up at the same time . Would it be worth investing in it or they really for people that want to bulk up more then anything ?

AARRRGH

Well, you have "bulk" drinks and protein drinks. Bulk drinks contain things like MCT (type of fat) which make you put on weight. They do work, but I've found they do make you get a bit fat (which is not really a bad thing if you are very skinny and want to put on weight.)

The protein drinks simply contain lots of protein which your muscles need to grow. They aren't for gaining weight and they cannot be used as a meal replacement.

You could try a protein/creatine combination drink for about 3 months? I'm pretty sure that's what you are looking for - minimal fat and lots of good proteins to help your muscles grow.

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hi thanks for the advice so protein and creatine drink would be best for no fat and development of my muscles is there any one you recommend

AARRRGH

Well technically you only need protein, but I find creatine worked for me. If you do take creatine, the important thing is to increase your water intake. I don't know the science, but I do know that the way it reacts in your body requires more water consumption. It's safe, a lot of studies have been done on it.

I use Maximusle products. They are not the cheapest, but they are a well established reputable company. I don't mind paying an extra fiver to know I'm getting quality!! I used to use (Maximuslce) Promax, Cyclone and Progain. I would drink Cyclone immediately before the gym and Promax immediately after the gym.

Of course, you want to get getting a lot of protein from normal food as well.

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hi thanks for the advice, im going to buy somethig this lunch time so just so i get it straight for weightloss and toning uo i should buy ?

PJG

Hi sarge,

If your starting out on weight lifting I'd stick with the protein and leave out the creatine.

As a beginner you should notice good gains with the right diet and training program. The long term effects of creatine are not known yet. Creatine causes lots of water to be loaded into your muscles as a result some people feel and appear bloated. If your a beginner this can also cause injury.

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well i went out at luch time and i went to health care oo grafton street they were very elhpful and recommended maximuscle cyclone for my needs aby feedback on this

Transform

Yes what is your current diet and training program as the drink will NOT do anything unless you have addressed these FIRST.

e.g. how much and how long aerobic exercise are you doing?
How often and what weights program are you following
Breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks etc?

Supplements you take (appart from the overpriced cyclone)?

Easygainer

Sarge wrote:

well i went out at luch time and i went to health care oo grafton street they were very elhpful and recommended maximuscle cyclone for my needs aby feedback on this

Taking Cyclone from there is more expensive than feeding a coke habit...

If you insist on taking it, have it with simple sugars, prefarably dextrose from raisins or grape juice. These help transport the creatine which otherwise won't get through the stomach wall...

What exactly is your goal anyway?

poobum

if ur looking for good protein pm easygainer! hes got good stuff and great prices!
and the reason you need to drink more water when on creo is dat creo absorbs water! hence your muscles look bigger

SBob

Creatine does seem to cause a lot of water retention, I've found that i put on weight very quickly when i first start taking it and then plateau, i was told before that this is because your body gets used to it, and the advice was to take it in cycles. This seems like a dodgy explanation to me, if you take it solidly for a couple of weeks and then completely stop you will notice yourself going to the toilet ALOT for a few days afterwards.
At the same time i do find that i can lift heavier weights when i'm taking it so... I guess it does some good but the whole water retention thing makes it seem better then it is..

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Thanks for all the feedbacklads , I must say that this is one of the best forums to get feedback and advice.

Right basically here are the stats i think

im 5ft 11"
13stone
carrying extra packaging around the chest and stomach.

Im looking to lose weight and tone up at the same time.
Now i have adjusted my diet to suit my needs. So i think im fine there

Im working out at least 3times a week
my normal work out consists of 1hour cardio work
threadmill , bike , crosstrainer and rowing machine.
I then do weights fromthe machines for another about 30-40 mins
then sauna steam room 20mins

Any advice would be gratefully apperiated , I was told that this cyclone was the best and hopefully it is after how much ive paod for it .

Feedback would be great guys

poobum

cyclone...its good! but i wudnt say best! depends on what u eat etc... how often u take it? whats your diet like?

Easygainer

Sarge wrote:

Thanks for all the feedbacklads , I must say that this is one of the best forums to get feedback and advice.

Right basically here are the stats i think

im 5ft 11"
13stone
carrying extra packaging around the chest and stomach.

Im looking to lose weight and tone up at the same time.
Now i have adjusted my diet to suit my needs. So i think im fine there

Im working out at least 3times a week
my normal work out consists of 1hour cardio work
threadmill , bike , crosstrainer and rowing machine.
I then do weights fromthe machines for another about 30-40 mins
then sauna steam room 20mins

Any advice would be gratefully apperiated , I was told that this cyclone was the best and hopefully it is after how much ive paod for it .

Feedback would be great guys

I don't know what condition you're in but losing fat AND gaining muscle at the same time is nigh on impossible for any level of athlete beyoned total newbie without drugs. To lose weight you need to take in less calories than you burn; to build muscle you need excess calories.

Secondly, you are doing too much exercise in each workout and in the wrong order. I don't know what your time constraints are but ideally you should just workout one day (so three days a week) and cardio the other days. To just lose fat moderate cardio is ideal, preferably with no carbs in your system - so a protein shake pre morning cardio would be the best option.

Finally of course the shop selling the cyclone will say it's great as they are selling for about E58 what they buy for around E30

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Well i do a lot of cardio and genrally just go around all the gym machines after i my cardio work , just to work on toning myself up . So really this cyclone is it actually worth taking at the moment when my first aim is actually to lose weight and then tone up ?

PJG

I’d feel it is possible to gain muscle and loose weight just by training. Maybe I should change ‘loose weight’ to ‘tone up’. When you’re doing weights you may not seem to be loosing weight on the weighting scales by you will tone up and remember muscle weighs more than fat.

Sarge if I was you’d I’d park the cyclone for a while and change your routine.

The amount of time your spending training maybe counterproductive 1h 40mins to 2 hours in the gym is too much. Aim for quality and not quantity.

As a suggestion

10 minutes warm up on the cardio machine that works the whole body (rowing or free runner).
5 minutes stretching.
30 minutes weights (change weight for each set so you can only do - first set 12 reps, second set 8, third set 6) Two exercise per body part.
20 minutes cardio as cool down.
10 stretching.

I how it still comes to 1hr 15 minutes but 15mins is for stretching which is important to recovery and injury prevention.

After about 8 weeks you could switch your 3 days to the something like the following
Day 1 back & biceps
Day 2 legs
Day 3 chest & triceps

Also I’d get the gym staff to do up a program and record everything that you’re doing and always challenge and push yourself.

As for diet make sure you get plenty to lean chicken, tuna, eggs, oats, fresh veg and fruit.

Above all enjoy it and look forward to the results.

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So guys , this is great advice and i appreciate it majorly.Have i got the idea right that people are saying drop the cyclone until i reach my ideal weight and then move on to it to build my muscle up ?

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

I’d feel it is possible to gain muscle and loose weight just by training. Maybe I should change ‘loose weight’ to ‘tone up’. When you’re doing weights you may not seem to be loosing weight on the weighting scales by you will tone up and remember muscle weighs more than fat.


As for diet make sure you get plenty to lean chicken, tuna, eggs, oats, fresh veg and fruit.

I disagree. Toning up means losing fat and building muscle, which, as I said involves the body using calories in two different ways - one requires saturation of calories for growth, the other depletion to use fat reserves. Better to diet and then build muscle or vice versa (the latter option would make dieting easy as more muscle means faster metabolism).

Also that's a good dieting diet but for building muscle, red meat is critical. Again it depends which road you go down but red meat builds muscle better than any other protein source.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

I disagree. Toning up means losing fat and building muscle, which, as I said involves the body using calories in two different ways - one requires saturation of calories for growth, the other depletion to use fat reserves. Better to diet and then build muscle or vice versa (the latter option would make dieting easy as more muscle means faster metabolism).

Also that's a good dieting diet but for building muscle, red meat is critical. Again it depends which road you go down but red meat builds muscle better than any other protein source.

If you listen to all the hype in the glossy bodybuilding mags you would think this. These mags are sponsored and some owned\published by the nutrition companies so of course they want you to think you can't tone up and build muscle in a natural way.

I'm recounting from my own and clients experience and backed up by study in nutrition and sports science.

I agree read meat is a good source of protein but is also one of the best sources of saturated fat which is probable the biggest contributor to cardiovascular disease and strokes. In no way is read meat critical for building muscle.

hardtrainer

What annoys me most is the way scientific studies are abused so that people can make sweeping generalisations about things that have been found to have negative effects in a particular group of people. Red meat does contain saturated fats but that doesn't mean that red meats contribute to cardiovascular disease/strokes. There is no denying that saturated fats contribute significantly to these problems, but thats mainly because the majority of people who suffer from these are a)overweight b)smokers c)consume v. high amts of saturated fats.

In terms of bodybuilding, bulking up, etc, saturated fats, particularly from red meats and dairy, are an invaluable source of calories required to not only support muscle growth but also to promote it through the bodys natural anabolic response.

It is of course possible to build muscle without eating red meat, even without eating animal products at all, but as easygainer said, red meat does build muscle better than any other protein source and this likely because of the level of carnitine (CARN) found in red meat. The human body contains about 20g total of CARN and this is depleted during physical exercise. Supplementation through diet (red meat) has beneficial effects on the duration and intensity of exercise (including bodybuilding) but only in individuals who are actively exercising. Thus sedentary indivuals show no improvement with supplementation (Horm Metab Res. 2005 Sep;37(9):566-71).

PJG

hardtrainer wrote:

What annoys me most is the way scientific studies are abused so that people can make sweeping generalisations about things that have been found to have negative effects in a particular group of people. Red meat does contain saturated fats but that doesn't mean that red meats contribute to cardiovascular disease/strokes. There is no denying that saturated fats contribute significantly to these problems, but thats mainly because the majority of people who suffer from these are a)overweight b)smokers c)consume v. high amts of saturated fats.

In terms of bodybuilding, bulking up, etc, saturated fats, particularly from red meats and dairy, are an invaluable source of calories required to not only support muscle growth but also to promote it through the bodys natural anabolic response.

It is of course possible to build muscle without eating red meat, even without eating animal products at all, but as easygainer said, red meat does build muscle better than any other protein source and this likely because of the level of carnitine (CARN) found in red meat. The human body contains about 20g total of CARN and this is depleted during physical exercise. Supplementation through diet (red meat) has beneficial effects on the duration and intensity of exercise (including bodybuilding) but only in individuals who are actively exercising. Thus sedentary indivuals show no improvement with supplementation (Horm Metab Res. 2005 Sep;37(9):566-71).

Look I’m not going to get into the negative effects of red meet as it’s a different subject altogether and there is enough scientific fact out there.

Sorry I can’t accept that “saturated fats, particularly from red meats and dairy, are an invaluable source of calories required to not only support muscle growth but also to promote it through the bodies natural anabolic response” . If a bodybuilder replaced the fats they obtain from meat with lets say the fats from Flaxseed oil they would receive many more benefits including a better anabolic effect. Better brain function, improve cardio vascular system, reduce body fat, better joint mobility, more efficient source of energy, promote growth\repair and better recover times. There are many more benefits these are just the ones most important to bodybuilders.

I accept that carnitine is found mostly in dairy and meats. Carnitine is associated with fat burning (release energy from fats) and is hugely beneficial for endurance athletes. But if we stop and think about why the highest concentrations are found in meat and dairy ‘because it’s needed to help the body try and convert all the bad saturated fats into energy’. So if you try increasing you carnitine levels in the body with red meat consumption you will not see the benefits. But if you replace the meat with a more efficient protein and take an l-carnitine supplement in between meals with out any other amino acids I can guarantee you will feel the benefits. Carnitine is also highly beneficial for the cardio vascular system, nature has a way of trying to balance things out !!!

One question, do you like Easygainer have a commercial interest in promoting ‘protein supplements’ ?

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

One question, do you like Easygainer have a commercial interest in promoting ‘protein supplements’ ?

Please, explain how my promotion of red meat is, in any way, related to my business? I'm not a butcher, I'm a law student. You need to pull your finger out and stop saying that exact line everytime your out of points in an argument.

Secondly, how is my theory that building muscle and burning fat are metabolically different processes influenced by "glossy" magazines? Wouldn't the magazines try and say you could do both so you would take supplements for building muscle and burning fat at the same time, case in point Thermogain? I think I've sufficiently dominated you on that point.

As for red meat and cardiovascular diseases? I think somewhere along the line you have show your colours and say what you think takes priority. Yes, I could sub all the saturated fats in my diet for fish oil, but it's not convenient and fish oil tastes rotten. Somewhere along the path of dedicated training and dieting, convenience and pleasure have to come in.

I'm not gonna lie and say I could eat 5lbs of red meat a day without any adverse effects down the road, especially as my dad has angina so chances are I' high risk. But I can take steps to reduce these risks. I have 2lbs of red meat a day, but they are extremely lean cuts (less than 5%). I strain mince with warm water to remove excess fats. I have a low carbohydrate diet to utilise the fats and proteins (through gluconeogenesis) as an energy source. I only have fast food/crap food once a week - that works out as 1 bad meal in 49 in a week. I do cardio 4 days a week etc etc

I know I've gotten a bit aggressive here, and I don't mean to offend you, but you got on my back over nothing. I would also gladly trade pictures here to prove whose diet and training is more effective...

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

Please, explain how my promotion of red meat is, in any way, related to my business? I'm not a butcher, I'm a law student. You need to pull your finger out and stop saying that exact line everytime your out of points in an argument.

Secondly, how is my theory that building muscle and burning fat are metabolically different processes influenced by "glossy" magazines? Wouldn't the magazines try and say you could do both so you would take supplements for building muscle and burning fat at the same time, case in point Thermogain? I think I've sufficiently dominated you on that point.

As for red meat and cardiovascular diseases? I think somewhere along the line you have show your colours and say what you think takes priority. Yes, I could sub all the saturated fats in my diet for fish oil, but it's not convenient and fish oil tastes rotten. Somewhere along the path of dedicated training and dieting, convenience and pleasure have to come in.

I'm not gonna lie and say I could eat 5lbs of red meat a day without any adverse effects down the road, especially as my dad has angina so chances are I' high risk. But I can take steps to reduce these risks. I have 2lbs of red meat a day, but they are extremely lean cuts (less than 5%). I strain mince with warm water to remove excess fats. I have a low carbohydrate diet to utilise the fats and proteins (through gluconeogenesis) as an energy source. I only have fast food/crap food once a week - that works out as 1 bad meal in 49 in a week. I do cardio 4 days a week etc etc

I know I've gotten a bit aggressive here, and I don't mean to offend you, but you got on my back over nothing. I would also gladly trade pictures here to prove whose diet and training is more effective...

Again read what I’m saying.

I said promotion of protein supplements and not promotion of red meat. Fact.

Then you say ‘I think I've sufficiently dominated you on that point’. In no way have you dominated me on any point. Maybe domination is your think it’s certainly not mine.

I’ll gladly debate muscle building and fat burning in another tread.

As for trading pic’s – I’m sure there are plenty of web sites for you boys to exchange your photo’s . Again that’s not my thing.

My chosen sport (which is a real sport) requires a high level of strength, stamina, aerobic and anaerobic fitness. I also do 4 cardio\sparring sessions and two weight sessions per week. While I am quite happy with my physique I don’t have to trade pic’s.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

Again read what I’m saying.



I’ll gladly debate muscle building and fat burning in another tread.



My chosen sport (which is a real sport) requires a high level of strength, stamina, aerobic and anaerobic fitness. I also do 4 cardio\sparring sessions and two weight sessions per week. While I am quite happy with my physique I don’t have to trade pic’s.

OK, bring it on.

What is your sport? I've been a national champ in 3 sports, a world champ in 1 and played on a national level in a further sport. I can provide proof if necessary. Bodybuilding is my new sport and I'm going to compete for the first time next year and win my class. I don't think I've to prove my worth at sports and I would love to debate muscle building and fat burning - difference is I'm not an armchair expert.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

OK, bring it on.

What is your sport? I've been a national champ in 3 sports, a world champ in 1 and played on a national level in a further sport. I can provide proof if necessary. Bodybuilding is my new sport and I'm going to compete for the first time next year and win my class. I don't think I've to prove my worth at sports and I would love to debate muscle building and fat burning - difference is I'm not an armchair expert.

In the past my sports have been boxing, rugby and kickboxing. Currently just kickboxing. With plenty of provincial and national medals and trophies.

Body building is not a sport. Who’s an armchair expert? More empty statements you can’t back up.

Easygainer

PJG wrote:

Body building is not a sport. Who’s an armchair expert? More empty statements you can’t back up.

But I suppose snooker is? You're an armchair "expert" because as you say you have coached people through bodybuilding competitions and speak of diets for building muscle and burning fat yet wouldn't post a picture to back a word of it up.

PJG

Easygainer wrote:

But I suppose snooker is? You're an armchair "expert" because as you say you have coached people through bodybuilding competitions and speak of diets for building muscle and burning fat yet wouldn't post a picture to back a word of it up.

I have nothing to prove to you, as I said earlier trading pictures of men in underware across the internet is really not my thing.

RPGGAMER

Buy a good protein and add redy brek/bananas or some carbs- cheaper and better for you than sugar they usually put in..heres a related rant from another thread i posted in it should help you.

What the weighttrainer needs to realise is that it is not the measure of a good protein. It is not only the grammes per serving that matter! it is amino acid profile, the way in which it was processed and the additives that determine a proteins effectiveness. After that application of protein needs to be considered. Slow digesting proteins for nighttime/before bed use or dieting to prevent catabolism/breakdown of muscle. fast acting proteins like whey (for protein synthesis/building)are best peri workout. (before?/during?/after?) The black and white (no BS like companies) science says milk proteins are superior. also note soya proteins have isoflavone etc estrogens/female hormones so any male weighttrainer is mad to use it. ( look at research e.g. warning in UK soy milk formulas for infants- without soy companies BS). note meat etc are pretty slow digesting.

Best of list: Based on real research not hype

Amino acid profile: milk proteins - like whey/casein, particularly micellar casein
Natural growth factors, immunoglobulins/lactoferrins/antitumor - milk proteins
type of whey: whey concentrate 75/80 processing it beyond these percentages takes out aforementioned goodies.
Also pure whey isolate breaks down too quikly ie most is oxodised too quickly to be actuallly used! so Maximuscle (Promax ) is therefore invalid choice. wast of money. most of the protein is just broken down and stored as glycogen.=waste of money
Additives: steer clear of artificial sweeteners, colours etc, guar gums, xanthan gums etc, and sugar/maltodextrin.- they just use these to bulk up the volume and charge you more!

please feel free to pm if any facts/science are needed in nutrition training etc.