Luas questions

RedPlanet

Will be taking the Luas for the first time.
Boarding in Ranelagh (actually the nearest platform is Dunville or Dunville Court which is just S. of Ranelagh but i don't see this place listed at the Luas site)
Desination is Balally in Dundrum.

Now my questions are:
1- since dunville isn't listed at the site, does that mean this stop may not be serviced all the time?
2- Should i expect to see a Luas ticket machine at this stop? I've never looked for one before so i've no idea at this point.
3- How will i know when i've reached Balally? Do they announce stops along the way or are you just supposed to know.

John R

There is no stop called Dunville, could it be Beechwood you are thinking of?
All stops are served by all trams. All have ticket machines.

Maskhadov

I have a luas question and im not being funny.

Why did we build two seperate LUAS networks in dublin that dont connect ?

ballooba

Because the area between the two lines is the highest land value and thus the most expensive part of the line.

There is a station on the canal between Harcourt and Ranelagh called Charlemount. Don't know if this is the one you mean. All Luas stops have ticket machines.

www.luas.ie

RedPlanet

John R wrote:

There is no stop called Dunville, could it be Beechwood you are thinking of?
All stops are served by all trams. All have ticket machines.

Maybe it is Beechwood.
It's just that the streets are named Dunvill and version of Dunville and there's a shop right next to the platform that says "Dunville Court" on it.
So naturally i figured that was the name.

So do i get a ticket for 1 zone or 2?

strassenwolf

The stop you're looking for is Beechwood, which is on Dunville Avenue, almost beside Morton's shop, if you know it.

The stops are announced in advance by a woman. (She sounds quite like the one who used to do the announcements on certain lines of the London Underground - I wonder if and why she left that job?;) ) Anyway, she announces the stations in both Irish and English so you should be okay.

It's a while since I've been on the LUAS, but I think there may also be a digital thing which shows the next station.

PandaMania

The lines were not connected because Bertie was massively lobbied by the city centre business and shopkeepers groups. Bertie stood up in the Dail and announced that "deh people of Dublin would not stand for it!" - by "people" Bertie is talking about his pals who write his party cheques inside the Galway Races hospitality tent.

As laughable and internationally embrassing as this is, what really takes the biscuit is the same groups who up until a month before the Luas completion were demanding the project be halted, are now insisting that the Luas be expanded and joined-up ASAP. Just think about that. We have such a moron business class in this country that they would actively work to sabotage a machine which delivers millions of extra customers to them for at least a hundred years.

and nothing has changed. The bankers and stock brokers are trying to prevent the Luas from serving the Docklands...

only in Ireland.

BrianD

RedPlanet wrote:

Will be taking the Luas for the first time.
Boarding in Ranelagh (actually the nearest platform is Dunville or Dunville Court which is just S. of Ranelagh but i don't see this place listed at the Luas site)
Desination is Balally in Dundrum.

Now my questions are:
1- since dunville isn't listed at the site, does that mean this stop may not be serviced all the time?
2- Should i expect to see a Luas ticket machine at this stop? I've never looked for one before so i've no idea at this point.
3- How will i know when i've reached Balally? Do they announce stops along the way or are you just supposed to know.

Would you like us to send somebody around to hold your hand?

Flukey

At this point we only have 2 lines. They don't have to connect. Not every bus route connects with every other one. Most of the people travelling on each line would only want to be serviced along that line. Not many would want to be going direct onto the other line. They could connect them, but I don't think it is essential. Now, if we had 20 Luas lines and none of them connected, then we'd have a problem. If anything, if the 2 current lines are to be connected they should do it at the other end or midway along. First, let's build a few more lines and then get them connected.

LordSutch

PandaMania wrote:

The lines were not connected because Bertie was massively lobbied by the city centre business and shopkeepers groups. Bertie stood up in the Dail and announced that "deh people of Dublin would not stand for it!"

Did'nt Garrett Fitzgerald also have something to do with objecting to joining-up the two lines? I thought I heard somewhere that he stood at the bottow of Dawson street and proclaimed that the TRAMS would never navigate such a tight bend!!! dunno if this is true?
By the way, I have just had some Swiss guests with me in Dublin and they were very impressed by our TRAMS (specially the paint job):)

MarkoP11

Garrett Fitzgerald never measured the junction, Garrett wasn't a fan of Luas he went to great lengths to point out capacity was rubbish compared to the DART system

The plans exist already to go Stephens Green O'Connell Street in fact the works order to do it exists I had a flick through the plan a few months back

We don't have a tram system, system implies some kind of direct connection, Heuston Stephens Green well get the 92 bus its a lot quicker than walking from Abbey Street

jd

Flukey wrote:

First, let's build a few more lines and then get them connected.

Continue the Green line from the Green on to Ballymun-as originally planned (I think) - and they'd have to intersect.
jd

murphaph

Flukey wrote:

...First, let's build a few more lines and then get them connected.

Flukey-every time you build a line that is not part of a network you have to provide a maintenance depot and associated facilities because the line is stand-alone (or failing that, you could get a crane in and lift the trams onto a low-loader everytime they need to be cleaned or maintained!).

I couldn't disagree more with the poster who thinks people from line A would not wish to go to destinations on line B and vice-versa. For heaven's sake-the Red line passes by Connolly, Busaras, the north city shopping district, Heuston and James's Hospital! and they're all within the first few stops on the line. It also passes by Tallaght hospital. The Green line passes Stephen's Green and of course the biggest shopping centre in Ireland and the employment centre at Sandyford. People are thinking "who'd travel from Tallaght to Sandyford via the city centre"-that's wrong, think instead "who'd travel from Ranelagh to St. James' or from Rialto to Sandyford etc."

enterprise

BrianD wrote:

Would you like us to send somebody around to hold your hand?

Very good Brian!

Tell me why us Irish are so dumb when it comes to undertaking new journeys? I'll travelled around Ireland / UK / Europe by train and just did research on the net before hand, followed all the signs at the stations / airports pointing me in the right direction (must admit signage at Paris CDG is crap!) and i'm still here!

daymobrew

RedPlanet wrote:

Now my questions are:

It would probably have been quicker to phone Luas Customer Service - a free number too: 1800-300-604
http://www.luas.ie/document/index.asp?head=11

There is a feature on the website where you can calculate your fare

Flukey

Murphaph, we only have two lines at present. We should build more and connect them, but I don't think it is essential that the current two should be connected. I am not saying they shouldn't be, but at this stage I don't think it is as big a problem or flaw as some people make out.

As to people travelling on one line and if they want to go on the other, I think that the majority of people travelling on each one, would not have a final destination as somewhere on the other line. People would be going to all sorts of places. Some will, yes, but most are probably going into town and on to some other destination that is not along the other line, or getting off well before that or whatever.

There would of course be people wanting to travel between Sandyford and Tallaght and from places on one line to destinations along the other line, but that is where building new lines comes in. To facilitate them, it would be better to have lines directly linking them and not at one end. That is what I was saying earlier about joining them at the other end or along midpoints and in conjunction with other new lines. Also as I said, not every bus route connects directly to every other. They don't have to, as we have other routes or modes of transport. In the same way, our first two lines don't have to directly link to each other in this early stage of putting a network together.

I live near the Sandyford line, though not very near, and anyway I have buses passing my door, so I never use it. However, most times I would be going somewhere that would be on or near the Sandyford line, like into town, I am not doing so to go somewhere on the other line. The Luas goes into St. Stephen's Green and I am often heading in there, but I am rarely going to anywhere on the other line. So the majority of people that are on the Luas each morning are probably going into town, so their line serves them fine.

Given the choice of connecting the two lines or building other lines, I think the other lines are the priority. In building them we will in the process connect lots of them anyhow. So let's build a network and in the process of that connections between various lines will happen, rather than worrying about building something from St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street. Doing that isn't going to help the people in the likes of Ballymun, who'd want their lines first. Connect them, but in the context of other lines.

mollser

MarkoP11 wrote:

Garrett Fitzgerald never measured the junction, Garrett wasn't a fan of Luas he went to great lengths to point out capacity was rubbish compared to the DART system

hmm, he wasn't wrong there, and it was my first impression when i saw it too. Thankfully I get on at Sandyford so I get my seat, but the demand for the Green Line well exceeds capacity at peak times now, and this is before it is extended on out to Cherrywood.

I love the system, and it sure beats driving, but the capacity is becoming a big issue already, and thats not great foresight for a brand new tram system. :rolleyes:

murphaph

Flukey wrote:

Murphaph, we only have two lines at present. We should build more and connect them, but I don't think it is essential that the current two should be connected. I am not saying they shouldn't be, but at this stage I don't think it is as big a problem or flaw as some people make out.

Fair enough.

Flukey wrote:

As to people travelling on one line and if they want to go on the other, I think that the majority of people travelling on each one, would not have a final destination as somewhere on the other line. People would be going to all sorts of places. Some will, yes, but most are probably going into town and on to some other destination that is not along the other line, or getting off well before that or whatever.

But for the want of a very short distance of under a mile, the option does not exist.

Flukey wrote:

There would of course be people wanting to travel between Sandyford and Tallaght and from places on one line to destinations along the other line, but that is where building new lines comes in. To facilitate them, it would be better to have lines directly linking them and not at one end. That is what I was saying earlier about joining them at the other end or along midpoints and in conjunction with other new lines. Also as I said, not every bus route connects directly to every other. They don't have to, as we have other routes or modes of transport. In the same way, our first two lines don't have to directly link to each other in this early stage of putting a network together.

I'd love to see more radial Luas routes too, but it costs and when you're spending you look at value for money. The 1 mile or so of track between Red & Green lines would create a small network. That's good value, so it should be a priority IMO. As for buses not connecting to each other, that's irrelevant because buses can take any route back to their depots, trams can't, so if the line's not connected to depot A, it can't get there.

Flukey wrote:

I live near the Sandyford line, though not very near, and anyway I have buses passing my door, so I never use it. However, most times I would be going somewhere that would be on or near the Sandyford line, like into town, I am not doing so to go somewhere on the other line. The Luas goes into St. Stephen's Green and I am often heading in there, but I am rarely going to anywhere on the other line. So the majority of people that are on the Luas each morning are probably going into town, so their line serves them fine.

That's your own opinion though, it's not an accurate demand survey and neglects the operational advantages that are brought by creating a network (easy movement of trams between lines should the need arise etc.).

Flukey wrote:

Given the choice of connecting the two lines or building other lines, I think the other lines are the priority. In building them we will in the process connect lots of them anyhow. So let's build a network and in the process of that connections between various lines will happen, rather than worrying about building something from St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street. Doing that isn't going to help the people in the likes of Ballymun, who'd want their lines first. Connect them, but in the context of other lines.

Best new line would be to extend the Green line northwards, linking to the Red line and carrying on to Ballymun (in the event of no metro going there) and Finglas (the line would diverge at Cross Gunns Bridge to serve these parts of the northside).

Maskhadov

I have another question ( i haven a clue about LUAS).

Should we not have METRO instead of Luas ? Plus should we not push ahead for METRO lines instead of the 6 future LUAS lines ?

BrianD

The current population density of the Dublin and its environs doesn't justify it. Trams make sense along with the expansion of the DART system which will probably have new lines some I presume will be underground.


The big problem with Dublin is that within 1 km of the city you have semi-detatched homes (even within the canals). Metro systems need big passenger numbers to justify their construction and once built the frequency of services i.e every 5 min instead of 15 min. The DART is are only metro line and while people would prefer a 5 min frequency it will never be justified. Trains are almost empty outside of rush hour. The only issue with Dublin is the sprawl - the main routes are congested by people driving in from the sprawl around Dublin and from beyond. No metro will ever be able to serve them and they will continue to drive and the traffic remains unchanged.

The combination of an expanded DART (Metro) and tram lines make a lot of sense in Dublin.

Metrobest

Thanks to Garret Fitzgerald's blinkered anti-metro ideology, a myth has been created that Dublin Cannot Support A Metro. Wrong, Garret: it can. Dublin does have low density, but other cities have (fairly) low density and yet have metro lines. Inside the canal ring of Amsterdam for example - an area similar in size to Dublin's canal ring - you have buildings ranging in height from 3 to 5/6 stories. That area is soon to have seven metro stations, along with a multitude of tram lines. All are heavily used.

On many of Dublin's streets, especially in D2, buildings stand as tall as they do in Amsterdam; and with new developments, they stand taller. There was never an incentive to build tall buildings near the city centre because mass transport capacity did not exist to move people around the city. If we don't build a metro to serve the urban hubs of Dublin, we're setting ourselves up for decades of further suburban sprawl. Ballinasloe will become the new Navan.

Whilst I agree that there are many parts of Dublin which could not provide the passenger numbers neccessary for a METRO, certainly the central zone and the airport route can. The luas reaches metro capacity as it approaches the canal and there's no reason why other routes wouldn't do the same. The research that's been done for the Airport-Stephen's Green metro suggests ample numbers of passengers to support a metro service for that route; and those estimates, like all estimates, are likely to be exceeded.

On-Street trams are not efficient in the long run. They look good; but they don't deliver the capacity, they don't deliver the speed, they can't deliver the frequency of metro.

Most people base their experiences of Luas on the Green Line, but that's a fluke of a tram line insofar as it follows the alignment of a heavy rail line. The Red Line takes 45 minutes from Tallaght to Connolly. That's hardly "luas" in its english sense, is it?

Building more luas lines through a car congested city centre is madness; both can't co-exist and the political will isn't there to remove the cars.

There is an aesthetic argument in favour of Luas through the city centre, but in terms of carrying mass numbers, only METRO cuts ice.

Victor

BrianD wrote:

The big problem with Dublin is that within 1 km of the city you have semi-detatched homes (even within the canals).

There is actually a bungalow on Phibsboro Road. Ironicly, is at the junction of the old Royal Canal harbour, Broadstone station, Phibsboro Bus Garage and the N2. Luas may pass this point in the future.

Irony of the month that.

dowlingm

Maskadov

For one metro line you get six LUAS lines. What do the other five routes get? Only the Interconnector and an airport/Glasnevin Junction/DCU line are worth risking. They are expensive yokes and no mistake. You also need the bottle to heavily develop around stations (high rise, and not Irish high rise either (5 stories) and the force to divert bus routes to serve metro stations rather than An Lar. Introducing non-standard gauge metro lines also imposes huge non-commonality costs.

In Toronto everybody wants more subway extensions but they cost enormous sums and the Federal/Provincial govts will only help if the relevant ministers have interest in the constituency the subway will serve. Toronto Transit Commission would like more Light Rail because they can really extend the network for not much money.

SeanW

Metrobest wrote:

There is an aesthetic argument in favour of Luas through the city centre, but in terms of carrying mass numbers, only METRO cuts ice.

Ah yes, your 2 car Metro. Wonderful.

Meanwhile DART can do 8 coach trains and - if segregated, could operate on a 5-10 min headway or less. DART is based on the best technology around including relatively advanced signalling. Such a solution would wipe the floor clean with your METRO.

murphaph

Ah we've been over this ground before.

gjim

Thanks to Garret Fitzgerald's blinkered anti-metro ideology, a myth has been created that Dublin Cannot Support A Metro. Wrong, Garret: it can.

Would you care to back this up? I followed the debate at the time, and from what I recall, Garret's position in the debate was the exact opposite of the one you're attributing to him.

BrianD

Metrobest ... it occurs to me that you do not understand the factors that influence the viability of a metro line. Dublin is a low density sprawling city. A general rule of thumb that metros need high density populations along their route to be worthwhile. Part of the problem with Dublin is the large number of cars coming in from the surrounds, parking and then heading home. By and large these people don't move around the city. The metro won't solve this problem.

Secondly, the area between the canals is relatively small and again low density by international standards. These inhabitants are well served as nearly every bus, tram and train enters the canal zone to reach city centre termini (and the reverse if they don't work in the CBD). Plus they are within cycling and walking distances of the city centre. The fact that the Luas is packed by the time reaches the canals is not an indication of demand within the canals. In any case, the interconnector route proposed by IR addresses the demand to reach other parts of the canal zone by train. It is blatantly obvious that the green line is able to deliver capacity, speed and frequency. The Red Line less so but it's not the perfect route and I would argue that Tallaght might have been better served by a DART line route going from there to Swords.

I agree that long tram lines are not efficient but none of these are proposed. Any tram route within the M50 circle would not be classed as a long tram route. Furthermore, Luas has mimimum interaction with street traffic. If the political will isn't there, there is nothing like a highly visible public transport means to persuade car owners to change. Unfortunately, the same political will has led to poor planning and development meaning that these people are doomed to stay in the cars.

BTW metrobest - this is what amsterdam.info says about tram and metro travel:

Trams provide the best way to get around Amsterdam (map) and run regularly until 12:15am.

City Buses are primarily used to reach outlying suburbs and after the trams have stopped running. Night buses run from midnight until 7am with routes connecting to Central Station, Rembrandtplein and Leidseplein.

The Metro (tube) is fast but is only useful if you need to travel far outside the city center or to the Amsterdam Arena (metro map).

The metro in Amsterdam is a combination of underground metro and trains running on the surface (sneltram). Only some 3.5 km in between Centraal Station and Amstel in the city centre are underground.

Maskhadov

thanks for the reply dowlingm.

I dont know much about all this infastructure in Dublin, it all sounds poorly planned to me.

Anyway, as you say "....For one metro line you get six LUAS lines..." sure you could say one luas line gets you 6 (i dont know the exact number) quality bus corridors. I dont think its a good reason for not going ahead with METRO. We would never make any progress in getting people out of the cars if we dont spend on public transport.

Personally Im in favour of more LUAS and Metro lines on the balance of it. I just think that LUAS is a very expensive and low capacity, the same as a bus basically. It does get people out of the car but how many cities have a LUAS service, QBC, DART and Metro. Is 6 more LUAS lines going to help congestion in Dublin ?? Will LUAS still be relevant in Dublin in 30 years time ? I remaind unconvienced.

A Metro would really move large amounts of people though. Fair enough were only starting with one line out to the airport and on to Swords but it will last well into the future and will give a return on the investment.

The other issue I cant understand is all the semi detached houses in Dublin. That alone needs major attention. The government should be trying to press ahead with a medium (i take it semi-detached is low dentisty) dentisty housing in the Dublin region. It would take thousands of cars off the M50 and the national roads for a start and improve thousands of peoples quality of life.

murphaph

There's an internationally accepted (often only psychological) difference between QBCs and tram routes. The rail based solutions attract more people to public transport than the bus based systems-hence things like the Wright metrobus concept-it's a bus, that looks like a tram! It's just the way it is.

Victor

There is a slight difference between the Irish QBC set-up and other manifestations, including guided bus-ways.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

Trams provide the best way to get around Amsterdam (map) and run regularly until 12:15am.

City Buses are primarily used to reach outlying suburbs and after the trams have stopped running. Night buses run from midnight until 7am with routes connecting to Central Station, Rembrandtplein and Leidseplein.

The Metro (tube) is fast but is only useful if you need to travel far outside the city center or to the Amsterdam Arena (metro map).

The metro in Amsterdam is a combination of underground metro and trains running on the surface (sneltram). Only some 3.5 km in between Centraal Station and Amstel in the city centre are underground.

Clarification: My figures in the post above referred to how Amsterdam will be when the North/South metro line is constructed in 2009.

Amsterdam could have built another tram line to link the residential suburban island Noord to the centre (it's currently only accessible by ferry or bus via a tunnel under the river Ij); however Amsterdam chose metro in a referendum held in the 1970s. Metro is without doubt the fastest, most efficient, most high-cacacity, and in the long run, most cost-effective mode.

Anyone familiar with Amsterdam, or indeed Dublin's Red Line, will be aware of the limitations of an on-street tram system. It's time for metro.

The Sneltram - metro/express tram - line 51 shares tracks from Zuid WTC to Amstelveen with the tram line 5. Whilst the two are similarly efficient on the segregated section, you notice a sharp difference when the routes diverge: the 51 goes underground and boots it into the city centre in no time, but the 5 dawdles along streets, slows down at junctions and gets stuck behind other trams when it gets near Centraal Station.

The lesson is, metro is best :-)