best way to let 15 comps share internet?

jasperok

Hi - i am just wondering what people would reccomend for 15 computers sharing one very fast connection? is there such a thing as a 15 port router? i would not neccessarily want to network the pc's but i'd like them to share a printer as well? what are my options?

seamus

Well, tbh it's easier to network them than to specifically try to not network them a 15-port router would be more expensive than a small router and a bigger switch.

What's the setup here? We need a little more info on the environment - what types of machines (desktops/laptops), business or home, do you want to share an internet connection as well - what type of internet connection, etc etc etc.

paulm17781

Get a 32 port switch and connect it to a router and all computers/printer.

bk

It should also be pointed out that if all 15 computers will be surfing on the net at the same time and you use residential BB:

a) it will be very slow.
b) your isp will notice and likely shut you down.

Lots of cybercafes have tried using residential bb to connect customers on the cheap, all the ISP's watch out for this and cancel the contract when they find it.

You should really look to get a leased line or one of the business DSL products from leap.ie or others.

jimmycrackcorm

OP did mention that it would be a very fast connection.
You have a number of options.

1) 16 port switch with cables to each pc - very messy cabling. You also have to manage DHCP or use fixed addresses and routing via a server.
2) 2 or more 4 - 8 port routers - link them together - reduces cable lengths by connecting near computers together
3) combination of 2 with wireless routers if pc's are spread apart. Again more than one access point can be used to share the load.

Blaster99

You may also want to consider that any networking kit designed for home use will miserably fail to handle a LAN with any sort of traffic volume on it.

Red Alert

my recommendation would be a PC-based router using either Linux or OpenBSD. Block Port 80 at the router and set up a proxy server (such as Squid) which will reduce the internet load if people surf a lot of the same sites.

i'd definitely use DHCP in a network this size as it allows many settings to be distributed on the fly, and a local caching DNS Server to reduce DNS lookup times. both of these can run on the router PC.

jasperok

Ok so its been decided 2mb/2mb connection- that is with a fixed ip. so i was hoping really to plug everything into the switch really so that all pcs could use both the laser printer and the interent - what is dhcp - to be honest i just dont think i could afford or understand a server in this situation.

paulm17781

You want all PCs into the switch. A router into the switch. A printserver (connected to a printer into the switch).

That should do everything.

jasperok

thanks paul

humaxf1

if you have the cash, go for gigabit ethernet. That way you are future proof for a good few years.

I personally would get a, say, a 24/32 port switch and maybe a patch panel. 24 port allows for expansion with the addition of IP printers, IP cameras, wifi Access Points, network attached storage. You never know how your network will expand.

cormac_byrne

jasperok wrote:

Ok so its been decided 2mb/2mb connection- that is with a fixed ip.

Who is the ISP? If it's IBB you may as well give up now, don't waste your money on hardware.

The Clown Man

If it's just for the purposes of sharing internet connection and all your computers are close together then why not use Wireless 54g? It would save you having to run wiring everywhere.

You'd need a wireless access point, print server and a router with a few ethernet ports. And obviously, a wireless network card for each pc. It also make adding and removing pc's very easy and allows you to shift pc positions no problem.

Slightly more expensive though for the hardware especially if all your computers have onboard ethernet NICs.

bk

bk wrote:

It should also be pointed out that if all 15 computers will be surfing on the net at the same time and you use residential BB:

a) it will be very slow.
b) your isp will notice and likely shut you down.

Lots of cybercafes have tried using residential bb to connect customers on the cheap, all the ISP's watch out for this and cancel the contract when they find it.

You should really look to get a leased line or one of the business DSL products from leap.ie or others.

Ive never heard of any ISP doing this before...

Also a leased line 2mb up/down is going to cost at least 10 grand a year from Eircom and more if you happen to be any distance away from your local exchange. Also factor in the cost of a Cisco router cause you will need one and someone to configure it.

Faster lines are available but only in certain areas and you would need alot of money to even consider putting one in.

Random

I'd make some of the PCs wireless ... no mess, no tangles, clear air : ) And then throw a wireless printer server in too for good measure.

jor el

I think this would do the trick. A Wireless router/print server combo for €55 will do the routing and print server tasks. Then put a wireless USB adapter for €29 in each computer and connect to the router. Connect the router to your broadband modem and Bob's your uncle. All done with no wiring required, and a €600 price tag ain't to bad I think.

Random

Go into Peats or somewhere and buy 15 USB adapters and you'll no doubt get a discount

Blaster99

And you've connected how many PC's wirelessly to that router before? I doubt it can do more than two reliably, particularly if some have poor signal. In fact, I doubt any router or switch designed for home use can handle anything close to 15 PC's, wired or wirelessly.

Random

You sure Blaster99 ? I was under the impression they could support tens and sometimes hundreds.

And if it's over a larger area then you could always get 1 or two access points and use them as relays or whatever.


Edit:
Look at http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=118981&view=detailed
and then
Capacity Connection / user qty : 128
(please do correct me if I'm mistaken!)

cregser

jor el wrote:

I think this would do the trick. A Wireless router/print server combo for €55 will do the routing and print server tasks. Then put a wireless USB adapter for €29 in each computer and connect to the router. Connect the router to your broadband modem and Bob's your uncle. All done with no wiring required, and a €600 price tag ain't to bad I think.

Would also leave the option for laptops to wirelessly connect to the network. Everyone has a laptop it seems these days. But you would need to read into wireless security.

However, getting a network switch and a bunch of cables would still work out cheaper. If you get a managed switch, you could stick VLANs on the network which would have the effect of "not neccessarily" networking the PCs (if you have an issue with that).

Also, in my opinion, you don't need a dedicated print server. Just stick the printer on one of the computers in the network. And you could get by without dns caching servers, proxy servers, mail servers etc. etc. If your getting all this for a small office and have been nominated as the IT guy, you don't want to be looking after servers galore.

watty

About 4 to 5 pcs wireless

Dlink do a cheap 100M 16 port swtich. Link two of them.

Use a PC based router/firewall with two network cards using Linux or NT family (NOT simple NAT or MS ICS). Then you can block sites, ports, services, log activity etc.

Iv'e run up to 50 PCs on 100M lan connected via PC Server based router/firewall to 2 channel ISDN (not contended) and the 128K gave performance roughtly that of a hypothetical 200k modem.

Unless they are all downloading at same time, doing email/browsing up to 20 or 25 PCs will be fine on UNCONTENDED 512K down 256k up.

Wireless is shared not switched. Performance at even 108Mbps can be like 5Mbps or less with 10 PCs. And any poor signal and entire WiFi can run at 5mbps giving less than 500k per user.

The Clown Man

Blaster99 wrote:

And you've connected how many PC's wirelessly to that router before? I doubt it can do more than two reliably, particularly if some have poor signal. In fact, I doubt any router or switch designed for home use can handle anything close to 15 PC's, wired or wirelessly.

Rubbish.

They all have limits on how many mac addresses can connect to them simultaneously but they will all certainly manage a miserly 15.

If you were to go with a wireless router such as this one with 4 ethernet ports then you can connect a cheaper wired print server to one of them and still have 3 ethernet ports left if you need them.

These are going for €29 and the router is €59 and a print server for €69 so you are looking at €563 for a simple and easy setup that leaves loads of room for laptops, systems change or expansion.

This is only useful for connecting broadband however. If you were looking at setting up a fully networked LAN you'd really want to go with a wired solution.

Hope this helps anyway.

jor el

Blaster99 wrote:

And you've connected how many PC's wirelessly to that router before? I doubt it can do more than two reliably, particularly if some have poor signal. In fact, I doubt any router or switch designed for home use can handle anything close to 15 PC's, wired or wirelessly.

None to that router, it was just an example. How many have you connected to it since you know it won't work. I have connected 8 PCs through a Belkin router though and they all worked. Pretty slowly, but still worked.

When all he wants is to share a 2Mb broadband connection to 15 PCs it won't much matter if the LAN slows down as the OP said he's not interested in that. All he wants is to share the internet connection.

Blaster99

jor el wrote:

None to that router, it was just an example. How many have you connected to it since you know it won't work. I have connected 8 PCs through a Belkin router though and they all worked. Pretty slowly, but still worked.

When all he wants is to share a 2Mb broadband connection to 15 PCs it won't much matter if the LAN slows down as the OP said he's not interested in that. All he wants is to share the internet connection.

3, and it would randomly disconnect nodes.

irishguy

bk wrote:

It should also be pointed out that if all 15 computers will be surfing on the net at the same time and you use residential BB:

a) it will be very slow.
b) your isp will notice and likely shut you down.

Lots of cybercafes have tried using residential bb to connect customers on the cheap, all the ISP's watch out for this and cancel the contract when they find it.

You should really look to get a leased line or one of the business DSL products from leap.ie or others.

How would they do this if it you used NAT? It would just look like you were a heavy downloader, unless they looked at all the simultaneous page requests, but would they even go to this bother for the sake of a few quid?

To answer the OP if you wanted to do it with the lease amount of hassle i would use a 32 port switch and a router with a wireless card (it’s nice to have the facility) and print server .

If you wanted to do a bit more then a 32 port switch with a dedicated pc based router (preferable UNIX), you could offer other facilities email, file server, web hosting, games hosting etc.

Blaster99

The Clown Man wrote:

Rubbish.

They all have limits on how many mac addresses can connect to them simultaneously but they will all certainly manage a miserly 15.

Number of IP addresses or MAC addresses has nothing to do with it.

bk

irishguy wrote:

How would they do this if it you used NAT? It would just look like you were a heavy downloader, unless they looked at all the simultaneous page requests, but would they even go to this bother for the sake of a few quid?

It is pretty easy to spot, an ISP can easily see that you are using a great deal of bandwidth, they can then analyse the packets you send and receive.

The reason they do it is to stop them having a big impact on their network, backhaul and the bandwidth of the other users.

Random

There's no difference in traffic between a serious downloader and a billion PCs on the same speed internet connection.

It costs the ISP no more or less.

They should just get stuffed.

Turner

Nets / Comms thread.

Moved.

rogue-entity

There are a load of good suggestions on this thread, Watty hit the nail on the head of course. A lot of people do not seem to realise the necessity of having a PC-based router to log activity, block illegal sites/services etc.
No offense, but despite the speed decrease, a PC based router will still be cheaper then an expensive hardware router providing the same features.

You said you have a 2Meg internet connection with a static IP. Brillient. Give your modem/router the IP 192.168.1.1.

Get a PC with two Network cards to use as your firewall/router. Install a nice Linux distro on it, then install Squid (for proxy services), ipTables (firewall) and Dansguardian (activity logger/content filter). If you only want to run a firewall then just install Smoothwall. If you want to use content filtering, then just install Censornet.

Give the "external" network card the IP 192.168.1.2 and the "internal network card the IP 192.168.2.1

Connect the "internal" network card to the uplink port of a 16 port switch and connect your PCs to the other ports. AFAIK both Censornet and Smoothwall include DHCP which is a service for automaticaly dishing out IPs to PCs on a network at boot time.

You can add a switch between your modem and the firewall if you want to use another PC as a mail, web or DNS server. If your router has a built in switch you can just use that.

Need any advice on this, drop me a PM.

jasperok

I'm resurecting this just to ask just how difficult is it to use windows server 2003 - are there idiot balloons and wizards to help one out - i am starting to see the advantage of runnng a pc based router firewall but am afraid that if i purchased this i would end up unable to know how to use it - what do you think?
the easy option is fire them all into a switch and plug print server and internet connectoin into that. ..

ntlbell

jasperok wrote:

I'm resurecting this just to ask just how difficult is it to use windows server 2003 - are there idiot balloons and wizards to help one out - i am starting to see the advantage of runnng a pc based router firewall but am afraid that if i purchased this i would end up unable to know how to use it - what do you think?
the easy option is fire them all into a switch and plug print server and internet connectoin into that. ..

Is this home use or a small office or what?

This is fairly simple, buy a cheapish router and a 24 port switch........

ISP to router..router to switch......pc's to switch......install the printer on one of the machines, share the printer and off you go....you don't need a windows server here, but yes they're idiot baloons and it's designed idiot friendly.

If you think you might have problems with windows 2003, then linux is going to be a minefield.

Setting up OpenBSD or linux with squid/altq and all this is all very well, but most of the time it's a waste of time, it just seems to be fashionable to recomend it.

jasperok

ok - thanks a million for all the replies - ths week is d-day and i've been informeed its 20 pc's not 15 now. i am staying away from a server for the first year while i do a networking course which will enable me to be more able to implement one down the line next in 12 months or so. for now no server.

so looks like isp- router-switch with all pc's and a print server going into the switch or switches

would there be any big advantage in just going for multiple routers instead of the switches? i dont mind spending a tad more if this is the case and will save me some hassle the first year. all they need to do is surf the net and print - no major networking requirements among each other sharing data etc - fairly low key the first year.

thanks a million for the wealth of replies - it has been a great help because as an earlier poster suggested i am the office guy who has been elected IT guy and while handy at building and hardware side and idiot proof lan's i have no real networking knowledge of pc's.

cheers

seamus

You would generally use routers to divide networks into logical divisions and reduce the amount of traffic travelling over each section of the network. They also allow you to do a multitude of other funky things. None of them you really need.

A single 24-port switch should be more than capable of handling your 20 machines. If you go for a more expensive switch, it will have useful features such as QoS and VLAN support. These things you don't need now, but if you envisage the network growing, then you can use them later on. My only reserve about a 24-port switch is that you're not leaving much room for growth, but adding another switch later on is no biggie.

NutJob

seamus wrote:

You would generally use routers to divide networks into logical divisions and reduce the amount of traffic travelling over each section of the network. They also allow you to do a multitude of other funky things. None of them you really need.

A single 24-port switch should be more than capable of handling your 20 machines. If you go for a more expensive switch, it will have useful features such as QoS and VLAN support. These things you don't need now, but if you envisage the network growing, then you can use them later on. My only reserve about a 24-port switch is that you're not leaving much room for growth, but adding another switch later on is no biggie.

Would recommend you get a good rack mounted 24 port switching hub and use the firewalling on the existing router. That way when the time comes it can look neat in the com cabinet(if you dont have one already) and is no biggy to daisy chain a few 24 port hubs together (within reason). Everything Seamus said above i agree with 100pc.

Its only if you need extra stuff which you dont seem to need like say VPN or web filtering and mabe 24 hour crytical uptime would you require more gear.

Iv seen companies use alot less for more users.

jasperok

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=329
ok thats my switch for definate as the company i am dealing with only have that one for definate.
now to find a router with good firewall and that offers wireless too.