Traffic

Culchie

I'm going mad at this stage.

Clonsilla to Dundrum is taking me between 1.5 and 2 hours each way now.

Maybe some of the FF'ers here can explain why they can't sort out this mess in Dublin.

It is just so incredulous, I can't speak.

DadaKopf

I'm glad I don't drive. But I use public transport. If the politicians will finally supply a substantial, city-wide mixed public transport system, after which they introduced disincentives to city-centre driving, we'd be sorted.

One of the main obstacles to this, to my mind, is a conservative Dublin public who adore the status cars bring and who simply hate walking. People who live in unsustainable suburbs who, rather than seeing driving as a potentially unneccessary neccesity, see driving as a right rather than a privilege.

This public attitude gives our politicians - particularly FF - the excuse not to really do anything. Y'know, because it'll cost too much (they rarely consider the economic and social benefits of supplying public transport to create demand - Luas exceeding expected turnover anyone?). Then there's the fact (fair enough in a democracy but crap for people who live in Dublin), that rural politics places so much pressure on the government to spend money everywhere else.

Culchie

I think a little bit of leadership and courage would go a long way as well though, they just dodge the issues which really makes me sick at this stage.

I mean that M50 toll bridge, ffs it so obvious.

If you had a toilet or a sink that was blocked, you'd unblock it. This gang open up a new section of the motorway, so that we have even more blockage.

I mean if you presented this problem to a 5 year old, seriously what whould they say?

They'd say "Why don't they just open the toll bridge Daddy, so that there is no queues"


It's incredible, it is so Irish.

Hobbes

Toll bridge is great! Keeps the traffic jam further up the M50 so I can get home earlier.

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

Maybe some of the FF'ers here can explain why they can't sort out this mess in Dublin.

Transport is easy, as many here seem to think. Just level a few square miles of housing and ban cars in Leinster would be one possible solution. Why use experts when we all are?

murphaph

Culchie wrote:

Clonsilla to Dundrum is taking me between 1.5 and 2 hours each way now.

Have you tried the train to Pearse (30mins), then walk (c. 10mins) to Luas at Stephen's Green and to Dundrum (14min)?

You should comfortably do it in under an hour from Clonsilla station and at least you won't be sitting in gridlock getting all raged up?

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

You should comfortably do it in under an hour from Clonsilla station and at least you won't be sitting in gridlock getting all raged up?

Forgive my ignorance of Dublin, but you mean to tell me that the complaint is made by someone who could do the journey quicker, but insists on using their car?

Instead of my slash and burn policy, maybe a car charge ala London would be an idea.

DadaKopf

conor74 wrote:

Transport is easy, as many here seem to think. Just level a few square miles of housing and ban cars in Leinster would be one possible solution. Why use experts when we all are?

So... we're not allowed to have opinions?

Obviously traffic congestion isn't such an easy thing to solve. Much of the damage has been done, but decisions have to urgently be made. History has shown that public transport is something that has to be supplied, in initial stages, it's not a demand-driven sector.

Personally, I think attitudes like yours contribute to the impasse that's occurred. "Oh, but it'd be too much of a disruption, we wouldn't want to trouble ourselves or our politicians. Sure it'll all work itself out."

If we don't demand that our politicians fix the problem, it'll just keep happening and it'll be much too late.

We don't need to be experts, duh. We need to shout: traffic is unbearable, we want something done NOW, we don't mind paying for it, hire international planning experts (not American), stop interfering with planners, integrate it with a dublin-wide and national spatial strategies, all this stuff. Then the experts will come.

The problem is the government believes the market will fix everything. It won't. Public transport occurs because of public pressure.

But do you not think that sitting in a car complaining about traffic is at least ironic?

And one can shout away, of course people will have opinions. But shouting shouldn't be confused with constructive input. And the initial post suggested that somehow everyone else except FF know what to do - frankly I doubt it somehow.

gandalf

Conor if that is the attitude of the general rank and file in FF then no wonder we are in the mess we are.

Public Transport is key to this problem. More dedicated routes be they bus lanes or luas/Rail lines with the frequency to tempt people out of their cars. I drive every day but I do it because the public transport that does exist is not reliable. There are only so many times that you can say "the bus was late" or "never showed" or went past because it was full. There does not seem to be any integrated strategy on Public Transport, the Government seem on to react to problems and not plan proactively. This kind of haphazard planning will end up costing us jobs and already is costing industry quite a few man hours of lost productivity because their workers are sitting in their cars chocking on fumes.

As for the Toll Bridge that is causing most of the grief and problems on the M50 in the morning, its now becoming the norm that traffic is back from the toll bridge all the way to Ballinteer in the morning. The thing should be demolised at this stage. Its going to be interesting to see what damage it does to the FF/PD TD's in the next election, I suspect it will cost them seats.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

Conor if that is the attitude of the general rank and file in FF then no wonder we are in the mess we are.

But I suspect there are traffic jams and transport problems in cities where the people have never heard of FF.

This is not another one of those 'everyone else does it better' threads? I bet anyone here any money that a driver in New York would have a similar moan. That's not to say the problem isn't worth tackling of course, but to suggest it's a FF problem is the part I would question.

robindch

Folks, what about hopping on yizzer bikes? Here's the average figures I get when I go into work on Dawson Street, from my flat in Sandymount:

Walk - 40 minutes
Bike - 12 minutes
Car - 10 minutes + up to 15 for parking (I don't use the multistory)
Public- 30 minutes (arriving at a random time, plus walk to office)

Bike wins hands down! If you have to wear stiff clothes in the office, then either change there, or stuff them into a bag and onto the back carrier.

robindch

robindch wrote:

Bike wins hands down! If you have to wear stiff clothes in the office, then either change there, or stuff them into a bag and onto the back carrier.

Tut tut. That would be actually doing something to make a difference.

Would it not be much easier to stare out the car windows and blame Fianna Fail?

Cabaal

DadaKopf wrote:

I'm glad I don't drive. But I use public transport. If the politicians will finally supply a substantial, city-wide mixed public transport system, after which they introduced disincentives to city-centre driving, we'd be sorted.

One of the main obstacles to this, to my mind, is a conservative Dublin public who adore the status cars bring and who simply hate walking. People who live in unsustainable suburbs who, rather than seeing driving as a potentially unneccessary neccesity, see driving as a right rather than a privilege.
<snip> etc etc

I couldn't agree more with every word your written, people tressure their cars far to much and its not just in Dublin.
Alot of people are often too lazy to use the other viable alternatives such as walking, cylcing and public transport (thats available), to some people its seen as low class.
Sad state of affairs if you ask me,.

Public transport needs to be greatly improve and alternatives such as cylcing need to be promoted much more then they currently are.

gandalf

Well considering FF have been in power for nearly 2 terms and they haven't really gotten their act together on public transport or the toll bridge I would consider it perfectly reasonable for people to call their decisions of lack of decisions into question.

At least a driver in New York has a decent transport system in the form of the subway to use, what do people have here, Dublin Bus are being withheld funds because of opposition to privatising the bus service, the Rail Service upgrades need to be fast tracked (sorry couldn't resist). The Luas Line for the Northside and the Metro to the Airport should be under contruction already with additional lines well on the way in planning for all of the major sub urban population centres.

Hobbes

You mean Bike or Motor Bike?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

I bet anyone here any money that a driver in New York would have a similar moan. That's not to say the problem isn't worth tackling of course, but to suggest it's a FF problem is the part I would question.

possibly but if he was shown Dublins traffic and told that the people responsible for it being that way were going to run the New York traffic-then he might commit suicide!

I've experienced New York traffic several times and I can say with some confidence that Dublins is much worse and thats a city only one twelfth it's size.

Whats needed is a few radical decisions.
1.open the toll bridge-buy out NTR to do this.
2.more luas lines built immediately
3.more bus lanes and allow cars with 2 or more drivers to drive in them at peak hours
4.Fine single occupant cars for breaking no.3 above ,like they do in LA and make the fine a painfull €200
5.Introduce a congestion charge withing 5 miles of the city centre after the luas lines and bus routes are created.
6.Exempt drivers with 2 or more passengers from the congestion charge and allow them obviously into the bus/taxi lanes in peak hours.

8. and most important-from now on with road building around the city, build fly overs like the one there near loughlinstown so as traffic can go straight through and those going off dont hold us all up with red lights-they can use slip roads and the flyovers instead.

9. Vote Earthman as minister for transport and make him have the job for 8 years with complete immunity to over see that the job is done

10. Pay Earthman suffecient to make it worth his while to sort this out for you all *

Thats my 10 point plan folks

* and no... by payment I mean mega bucks, not just a beer at the novembeers

DadaKopf

Another factor that must be built on is that we have to plan for a radical reorientation of the fabric of city life in Dublin. This is becoming increasingly important given the rapid rise in oil prices and inevitable exhaustion of fossil fuels.

We need a city built more on the Paris arrondisement model where a largely mixed-use medium-to-high-density city centre is sub-divided into self-sustainable districts, each of which is linked together by a public transport net, be it metro, trams, buses, trains, cycle lanes, safe pedestrian zones/home zones and so on. This would hopefully encourage the mending of social fabrics, revive small and medium enterprises (which will become increasingly important as a source of income for our new communities) and encourage people to walk more. People would be more likely to walk if it was possible to shop without having to drive out to a suburban warehouse. Where necessary, public transport should be developed enough for people to get nearly anywhere without a car. (No, I haven't forgotten the Paris suburbs, the tower blocks - exactly what we should be campaigning to avoid.)

It's just simply economically and socially unfeasible for us to ignore the problem any longer.

Interesting anecdote about how many people feel about public transport: my sister who hasn't a full-time, well-paying job bought a car because of the status it brings, the "freedom" she thinks is associated with it, but mostly because public transport is "disgusting". I was getting the Luas last week and a posho girl (although maybe she was a fake) was yapping away on her phone (having come from Tallaght or somewhere in between there and Fatima Mansions), saying loudly: "Yah, I kneww, I'm yeesing pablic transpoowart - I KNEWW!!! IT FOCKING SUCKS!!!". Y'know, surrounded by people who probably can't afford a car. Nice.

Hobbes

Earthman wrote:

5.Introduce a congestion charge withing 5 miles of the city centre after the luas lines and bus routes are created.

This isn't London city center 5 miles is quite a large area to mark off and without a good ring road system its not going to help the matter.

Although what would really cool is a ferry system from say Malahide -> Howth -> City Center -> Dun Laogu(forget how to spell ) and so on. Might be a good way to commute as well.

DadaKopf

DadaKopf wrote:

We need a city built more on the Paris arrondisement model where a largely mixed-use medium-to-high-density city centre is sub-divided into self-sustainable districts, each of which is linked together by a public transport net, be it metro, trams, buses, trains, cycle lanes, safe pedestrian zones/home zones and so on. This would hopefully encourage the mending of social fabrics, revive small and medium enterprises (which will become increasingly important as a source of income for our new communities) and encourage people to walk more. People would be more likely to walk if it was possible to shop without having to drive out to a suburban warehouse. Where necessary, public transport should be developed enough for people to get nearly anywhere without a car. (No, I haven't forgotten the Paris suburbs, the tower blocks - exactly what we should be campaigning to avoid.)

Paris laso has the distinct advantage of being practically levelled by Haussman to build the grand boulevards about a century back. He was given a free hand to tear down buildings and streets as he wished.

I refer you to my first post on this thread...

murphaph

DadaKopf wrote:

I was getting the Luas last week and a posho girl (although maybe she was a fake) was yapping away on her phone (having come from Tallaght or somewhere in between there and Fatima Mansions), saying loudly: "Yah, I kneww, I'm yeesing pablic transpoowart - I KNEWW!!! IT FOCKING SUCKS!!!". Y'know, surrounded by people who probably can't afford a car. Nice.

I think I'd have made her eat the phone. Silly mare. Conor, you're very naive if you think FF have nothing to answer for when it comes to the mess we're in now. Going right back to DeValera that party has been anti-progress IMO, the man was opposed to the foundation of the fcukin ESB for God's sake! As has already been pointed out to you-good governance does not mean being reactionary, it means being proactive, planning for the future. This government are not. It stumbles from crisis to crisis, sadly the opposition looks little better IMO, what a joke.

DadaKopf

Deleted User wrote:

Paris laso has the distinct advantage of being practically levelled by Haussman to build the grand boulevards about a century back. He was given a free hand to tear down buildings and streets as he wished.

I refer you to my first post on this thread...

Eh... what's your point? Whether the city remained walled pre-Haussman or was levelled (and it wasn't totally levelled actually), the fact remains that metropolitan Paris is, at heart, one huge high density conurbation of towns. Its governance structure divides it into more or less self-sufficient towns; supermarkets are hard to come by, people walk more and everywhere is accessible by public transport.

Dublin could be like this if people weren't so stupid. There's nothing about the city which prevents this from happening; the problem is the suburbs - as with Paris. This is why, to solve our suburban crisis, we have to look towards the Netherlands.

hawkmoon269

DadaKopf wrote:

I'm glad I don't drive. But I use public transport. If the politicians will finally supply a substantial, city-wide mixed public transport system, after which they introduced disincentives to city-centre driving, we'd be sorted.

One of the main obstacles to this, to my mind, is a conservative Dublin public who adore the status cars bring and who simply hate walking. People who live in unsustainable suburbs who, rather than seeing driving as a potentially unneccessary neccesity, see driving as a right rather than a privilege.

This public attitude gives our politicians - particularly FF - the excuse not to really do anything. Y'know, because it'll cost too much (they rarely consider the economic and social benefits of supplying public transport to create demand - Luas exceeding expected turnover anyone?). Then there's the fact (fair enough in a democracy but crap for people who live in Dublin), that rural politics places so much pressure on the government to spend money everywhere else.

100%. That's the extent to which I agree with this post.

black_jack

Hobbes wrote:

This isn't London city center 5 miles is quite a large area to mark off and without a good ring road system its not going to help the matter.

Although what would really cool is a ferry system from say Malahide -> Howth -> City Center -> Dun Laogu(forget how to spell ) and so on. Might be a good way to commute as well.

Actually thats not a bad idea at all at all.

Only how about a ferry service up the river from the IFSC to right down as far as you can go. I mean obviously at the city end it would be dependant on tidal flow (the liffey can get quite low depending on the time of the month).

Christ has anyone been stuck in traffic on the Canal? Update the locks and any journey from baggot st right up to Athlone could be do able.

I'm not saying this could be done now, it'll take some investment and creativity. Two things Dublin traffic planning seems to lack.

Oh and Conor, people are going to do something about the traffic problem in dublin, they're going to throw out a couple of those shiftless lazy cretins you support. Sneering at people for not doing something themselves to sort out Dublin transport, is laughable for someone who vocally supports a poltical party who have been doing a passable impression of Nero for a decade while our capital's traffic "problem" ballooned into a "crisis".

DublinWriter

The problem is caused by two issues:

1. Urban-planning based the passing of brown-envelopes of cash in the snugs of public-houses and not based population models a la continental Europe.

2. Lack of a joined-up and comprehensive public transport system a la continental Europe.

I really detest the 'you have a car therefore you're as bad as Hitler' brigade. Let those same people crow-on about the joys of public-transport once they have kids.

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

once they have kids.

Kids AND cars. These people want it all. And only those in FF should plan ahead? How could you bring a child into a world with evils like traffic jams in Clonsilla?

RainyDay

DublinWriter wrote:

Let those same people crow-on about the joys of public-transport once they have kids.

Kids does not necessarily mean cars. I saw one father with his 2-3 year old on the back of his bike (pedal, not motor) in the lashings of rain this week. A good friend of mine did the creche run with her toddler via the LUAS.

DublinWriter

RainyDay wrote:

Kids does not necessarily mean cars. I saw one father with his 2-3 year old on the back of his bike (pedal, not motor) in the lashings of rain this week. A good friend of mine did the creche run with her toddler via the LUAS.

Well, whoop-de-doo if you've only got the one kid.

I, for one, *would never* put any toddler of mine on the back of my bike. You could be the most competant and safest cyclist in the world, but God forbid, you and yours would be toast if anything happened.

Ice_Box

I drive to work. I tried taking the three busses I would need but it took 2.5 hours. If there was public transport between where I work and where I live i would take it. Im sure there are a lot of people like me out there.

Captain Trips

DadaKopf wrote:

If we don't demand that our politicians fix the problem, it'll just keep happening and it'll be much too late.

WHy on earth would you think that politicians fix problems? THat's hilarious!!!

fly_agaric

DadaKopf wrote:

Interesting anecdote about how many people feel about public transport: my sister who hasn't a full-time, well-paying job bought a car because of the status it brings, the "freedom" she thinks is associated with it, but mostly because public transport is "disgusting". I was getting the Luas last week and a posho girl (although maybe she was a fake) was yapping away on her phone (having come from Tallaght or somewhere in between there and Fatima Mansions), saying loudly: "Yah, I kneww, I'm yeesing pablic transpoowart - I KNEWW!!! IT FOCKING SUCKS!!!". Y'know, surrounded by people who probably can't afford a car. Nice.

I'd hazard a guess that many politicians in this country, in their heart of hearts, feel the same about public transport and don't really like seeing alot of money spent on it. Politicians are often a reflection of the people who elect them. Add to that the fact that the need to invest in public transport is largely a Dublin/city issue. People in Ireland who don't live in cities (i.e. most of the population still) always begruge the massive amounts of money involved.

RainyDay

DublinWriter wrote:

I, for one, *would never* put any toddler of mine on the back of my bike. You could be the most competant and safest cyclist in the world, but God forbid, you and yours would be toast if anything happened.

You could say the same about a car, or a plane or a train or the LUAS or a bike. No form of transport is 100% safe. Have you any data that shows kids on backs of parents bikes are more at risk than those in a car?

I'd hazard a guess that the father/toddler on the bike (both wearing hi-vis clothing and cycle helmets) were a lot safer than many of those kids I frequently see bouncing round unrestrained in the backs of cars, or better still, standing up in what the paramedics call 'the launch position' [standing up in the back between the two front seats]. And don't even get me started on those parents who will smoke in the front seat while the car ventilation blows the smoke straight back into their kids lungs.

DublinWriter

RainyDay wrote:

You could say the same about a car, or a plane or a train or the LUAS or a bike.

Nope. You can't seriouslly suggest that a kid is equally at risk being on the back of a bike as he or she would be when properly restrained in the back of a car?

RainyDay wrote:

No form of transport is 100% safe. Have you any data that shows kids on backs of parents bikes are more at risk than those in a car?

All things being equal I think common sense would tell you that kid in a 4-wheeled metal box would stand a better chance in an accident situation than kid on a 2-wheeled metal frame

RainyDay wrote:

And don't even get me started on those parents who will smoke in the front seat while the car ventilation blows the smoke straight back into their kids lungs.

Why does smoking have to come into every thread? Yes, yes, yes, we're all worse than Hitler, etc....

RainyDay

RainyDay wrote:

And don't even get me started on those parents who will smoke in the front seat while the car ventilation blows the smoke straight back into their kids lungs.

Hey, it's the parents car. If the kid don't like it, take a hike sonny...

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote:

All things being equal I think common sense would tell you that kid in a 4-wheeled metal box would stand a better chance in an accident situation than kid on a 2-wheeled metal frame

But all things are not equal. The metal box is designed to travel at speeds of 120km/h or more and must be driven on the road with other metal boxes also travelling at those speeds-speeds that can often result in fatal injury even when cocooned in the box. The bike might do 20km/h and can be used on cycle lanes and indeed footpaths (I know I'd cycle on the path if I had my child on the bike and there was no cycle track). Even if the bike falls over, the child is unlikely to be seriously hurt-the only place a child on a bike is at more risk than a child in a car is when struck by a vehicle IMO, and that risk is present for children when they are pedestrians anyway!

DublinWriter

murphaph wrote:

The bike might do 20km/h and can be used on cycle lanes and indeed footpaths (I know I'd cycle on the path if I had my child on the bike and there was no cycle track).

Cycle lanes in Dublin are little more than coloured stripes painted on the side of the road. Are you seriously suggesting that they offer additional protection for cyclists?

...and cycling on the footpath is illegal!

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote:

Cycle lanes in Dublin are little more than coloured stripes painted on the side of the road. Are you seriously suggesting that they offer additional protection for cyclists?

A cycle lane does offer additional protection to a cyclist than just cycling on the unmarked road. I have both cycle lanes and tracks in my area and I feel quite safe on both, however tracks are obviously a safer bet, excepting dozy pedestrians who wander on to them which means I use the road/bus lane on those ones more often than not). Motorists are pretty observant of the cycle lanes in my area, I'm sure it's not universal though.

DublinWriter wrote:

...and cycling on the footpath is illegal!

Ah, so is doing 51km/h in a 50 zone but it happens and if I had a child on the back of the bike, I would use the footpath if I deemed it safer, illegal as it may be.

Nobody can prove how safe or unsafe it is because we won't be able to get accurate figure for it, I just think it's as safe as many other modes of transport and is incredibly common elsewhere. Certainly, particular parts of Dublin will not lend themselves to it-but it's not a black & white "car good-bike bad" type of scenario, that's all I'm saying.

RainyDay

Deleted User wrote:

Hey, it's the parents car. If the kid don't like it, take a hike sonny...

Let's hope you don't have any children. In fact, let's hope you never have any children.

DublinWriter wrote:

Nope. You can't seriouslly suggest that a kid is equally at risk being on the back of a bike as he or she would be when properly restrained in the back of a car?

All things being equal I think common sense would tell you that kid in a 4-wheeled metal box would stand a better chance in an accident situation than kid on a 2-wheeled metal frame

You're not looking at the big picture. Yes, of course it makes sense that a kid on a bike may well suffer worse injuries than in a car for the same kind of accident. But you need to also look at the probability of being in accident.

Calina

murphaph wrote:

if I had a child on the back of the bike, I would use the footpath if I deemed it safer, illegal as it may be.

just on that point - safer for whom? I walked to work a fair bit during the summer and was nearly run over by several cyclists cycling on the footpath.

BuffyBot

Let's hope you don't have any children. In fact, let's hope you never have any children.

You may want to switch the sarcasm detectors on.

murphaph

Culchie wrote:

it's hardly addressing the issues is it?

It's a start. I posted it as it might actually be faster than driving, just a suggestion. Sure, it would be nice if public transport was much better, but right now, today-it is how it is and it takes you up to 2 hrs to drive to work, so I was trying to help you out, today.

Culchie wrote:

Walk 30 mins (rather than 7 mins) to train station, as new housng estate blocked off old footpath to station and went to court to prevent throughfare their new estate.

I live in Cherryfield so I'm very familiar with what you're talking about, I'm guessing you are referring to Mount Symon or Portersgate estates who didn't want us riff-raff from the more established parts of Clonsilla to walk a footpath that we've used for years. You must live near Stonebridge/Willow Wood??? When the Ongar Distributor Road opens you'll be able to cross from Stonebridge & Willow Wood to the new link road that currently only serves Mount Symon from the Clonsilla Road. It will take me no more than 10 mins when this happens as opposed to the current 25mins round by St Joseph's Hospital to reach Clonsilla Station. I Can't wait-and good old Roadbridge are ahead of schedule again!

Culchie wrote:

Have you ever counted the amount of available seats on a carraige

I'm sorry-you can't expect a seat on a commuter train anywhere in the world. People stand everywhere, often for a lot longer than 30mins too.

Culchie wrote:

I want to go to work ffs, get out of bed, travel 15 or 16 miles down a motorway that has been 20 tears in construction, and we're supposed to be 1st or 2nd richest country in the world, and I don't want it to take me 2 hours each way to do so... is that unreasonable?

With all due respect, yes it is. If everyone who currently uses Dublin Bus (half a million journeys a day!) and DART (100,000 journeys a day) and Luas and walking etc. decided the same as you-to take to the car, the city would collapse completely.