Racism

ianmc38

Recently i've been thinking about what i perceive to be a huge amount of racism towards whiote people that appears to be universally accepted throughout the world.

Here's a few examples:

1. The MOBO awards. That's fair enough but why is their not a MOWO awards show. More importantly if there was would there be outcries of racism?

2. Acceptance speeches. The one that springs to mind here immediately is Halle Berry. Am i the only one that thinks all these people ranting about the balck cause when they accept awards is pure racism. Imagine Tom Hanks saying that he's dedicating his award to all the white peopel int he world and their struggles.

There are hundreds of other similar scenarios that take place on a regular basis in the same vain, but unfortunately my typing time is limited as I'm in work.

Am i the only one that thinks this is unadulterated racism?

Eoin

Well, I suppose it technically is racist, but "positive discrimination" is probably a more apt term for it.

Imagine Tom Hanks saying that he's dedicating his award to all the white peopel int he world and their struggles.

If he had come from a subset of people who had been oppressed throughout the years, then it wouldn't be a huge deal.

This doesn't just happen with white/black divides - it also happens with male/female ones too. For example, a Dublin golf club is consistently at the centre of court cases because it only allows men as members. However, women-only gyms are becoming more and more popular, yet somehow this isn't sexist.

White men have had the upper hand since day one really, so this is a small price to pay for that IMO.

Discrimination is always going to happen, the only thing that can be done about it is to ensure that when it does happen, it is for the right reasons.

bounty_hunter

ianmc38 wrote:

2. Acceptance speeches. The one that springs to mind here immediately is Halle Berry. Am i the only one that thinks all these people ranting about the balck cause when they accept awards is pure racism. Imagine Tom Hanks saying that he's dedicating his award to all the white peopel int he world and their struggles.

In all fairness, you can't really compare those two situations. Halle Berry happens to belong to a race of people who have been opressed and discriminated against for centuries, her being the first black woman to accept an award of that status was a huge step for the black acting community (I'm looking at it from her point of view here, not my own), it was a hell of an achievement considering the history of racial discrimination.

Tom Hanks, however, would have no right whatsoever to go up on stage and speak in the same way about himself, as a white actor, receiving such an award.

ianmc38

bounty_hunter wrote:

In all fairness, you can't really compare those two situations. Halle Berry happens to belong to a race of people who have been opressed and discriminated against for centuries, her being the first black woman to accept an award of that status was a huge step for the black acting community (I'm looking at it from her point of view here, not my own), it was a hell of an achievement considering the history of racial discrimination.

Tom Hanks, however, would have no right whatsoever to go up on stage and speak in the same way about himself, as a white actor, receiving such an award.

Yes, african americna people have suffered in the past, but whats the shelf life of that argument. We're in the 21st Century now. Will this point of view still be accepted in 1000 years. Don't get me wrong i'm not in any way racist. I just find this subject fascinating as I feel its a contradiction in terms.

What about my 1st point. Where is the music of white origin awards. Everyone must agree that if such an award show was held that there would be uproar....

Zombrex

ianmc38 wrote:

1. The MOBO awards. That's fair enough but why is their not a MOWO awards show. More importantly if there was would there be outcries of racism?

This has been done to death :rolleyes:

The MOBO awards stands for Music of Black Origin ... it is a grouping of musical styles, such as jazz, hip-hop, R&B that originated and derived from the largely black populations of America, Britian and the Carrabian (sp?). The point of the MOBO awards was that this type of music was very under-represented in other popular music awards. That as much the case now that hip-hop has crossed into pop, but the awards still are their to highlight the talent in this musical area.

The reason you don't have a MOWO award is because music of white origin is pretty much every other musical genre, from classical to country to heavy metal. This music is far more diverse and different from each other, and follows less of an evolutionary thread. You could call Country Music Awards the "Music of White Origin Awards", and you could call the Heavy Metal Awards the MOWO Awards but you would get fights with the Country music people :rolleyes:

You don't have to be black to win a MOBO, you don't have to be black to be part of the MOBO awards.

ianmc38 wrote:

2. Acceptance speeches. The one that springs to mind here immediately is Halle Berry. Am i the only one that thinks all these people ranting about the balck cause when they accept awards is pure racism. Imagine Tom Hanks saying that he's dedicating his award to all the white peopel int he world and their struggles.

Well Tom Hanks actually dedicated his award to gay people in the world and their struggles, including I would imagine white gay people ... was that wrong? When Halle Berry says black people, she means in a typical American "The world outside the USA doesn't exist", black African-Americans, which is a sub group of black people, just like gays is a sub-group. And both these groups have faced/ do face stereotyping and miss-understanding in teh modern world.

The reason Halle Berry brought race into her winning an Oscar was because she was the first black female to win the award. So it is important milestone in the context of race relations in America, and particularly black women in the context of Hollywood. Personally I don't think Halle Berry is much of an actor, I think the Oscars don't mean much in the way of quality (Titanic anyone), but it was still of important significance in removing racial barriers in media. You seem to be forgetting that a large portion of middle america still get unnerved if a white girl kisses a black man on television, and there still exists a large number of stereotypes of black roles in Hollywood.

The debate over the idea that coverage and realistic representation of blacks, gays, etc in media will help improve tolerance and understand is one for a different thread. But I fail to see how it is racist.

ianmc38 wrote:

Am i the only one that thinks this is unadulterated racism?

In what way? You are saying "...but if a white guy did that he is a racist" That isn't racism, that is hypocracy. And to be honest you gave some pretty poor examples to try and prove your point.

Zombrex

ianmc38 wrote:

Yes, african americna people have suffered in the past, but whats the shelf life of that argument.

Black people in America still suffer racial steretypes on a daily basis. I would love to know where this idea came from that everything in America is just fine no with relation to race.

An ex-girlfriend of mine (white) who is from North Carolina was on the recieving end of racial abuse and discrimination when she went out with a black guy for a few months. People would stare, laught and point at her if she walked down the street holding his hand, and she got shouted at when they kissed in public. This was 1997.

ianmc38

Wicknight wrote:

Black people in America still suffer racial steretypes on a daily basis. I would love to know where this idea came from that everything in America is just fine no with relation to race.

An ex-girlfriend of mine (white) who is from North Carolina was on the recieving end of racial abuse and discrimination when she went out with a black guy for a few months. People would stare, laught and point at her if she walked down the street holding his hand, and she got shouted at when they kissed in public. This was 1997.

And the reverse is also true. There is a huge amount of racism aimed at white people from the black community in America. However, this side of the fence gets no publicity as the history of white oppression is what's remembered and constantly brought to the fore.

Zombrex

ianmc38 wrote:

And the reverse is also true. There is a huge amount of racism aimed at white people from the black community in America. However, this side of the fence gets no publicity as the history of white oppresion is what's remembered and constantly brought to the fore.

True, there is nothing about being black that means you can't be a racist assh*le ... but I fail to see the point you are making. First you say racism against blacks in Amercia doesn't exist anymore, now you are saying it does but black people are racists too ... are you saying that because black people can be racist then white people should be allowed be racists too?

Also define "no publicity" ...

SparkyLarks

There is a lot od discrimination still in this world of ours. Women still get paid less than men for the same job, and family law still favours the mother over the father. Women are faced with a glass ceiling and battered husbands get no support only ridicule from NGO's( Amnesty internation called the numbers trivial)

There was a case in america wher a girl wasn't allowed to start a whites club in her school on the grounds that ir was racist. Her school did however allow the african american scoiety, the hispanic club and the asian society to operate in their school.

these examples are for illuistration and not discussion
Discrimination does exist in many forms, however a MOBO is not racist. It is celebrating music of black Origin. However if a MOWo was stopped that would be racist. But has someone tried to have a MOWO award? were they stopped.

However the problem is the acceptance of positive discrimination .

Positive Discrimination is still discrimination, and is wrong.
It's also illegal accoding to the European court on human rights. by the way.

Beruthiel

ianmc38 wrote:

Yes, african americna people have suffered in the past, but whats the shelf life of that argument. We're in the 21st Century now...

remember the storm in New Orleans?
who suffered the most from that? how many white people did you see? Things have a ways to go yet before equality is reached

Eoin

Beruthiel wrote:

remember the storm in New Orleans?
who suffered the most from that? how many white people did you see? Things have a ways to go yet before equality is reached

I don't know if that is a great example; the percentage of black people in New Orleans is several times higher than the white population, so the law of averages dictates that you will see more black people affected by it.

However, it is true that black people are far from being treated as equal in the states, particularly in the poorer parts of America.

SparkyLarks wrote:

Positive Discrimination is still discrimination, and is wrong.

I am in two minds about this. For the examples illustrated by the OP, I don't think positive discrimination is such a bad thing (legal or not).

My problem is when positive discrimination is brought into the workplace for example, when "quotas" have to be filled by employers. In this situation, the employer is effectively telling the person that they got the job because they are black, female, gay etc. To me this is wrong, as it makes the professional achievements and/or qualifications of the person secondary.

Karl Hungus

Beruthiel wrote:

remember the storm in New Orleans?

I can just imagine Jesse Jackson uncovering the evil White people's weather machine conspiracy!

bounty_hunter

ianmc38 wrote:

Yes, african americna people have suffered in the past, but whats the shelf life of that argument. We're in the 21st Century now. Will this point of view still be accepted in 1000 years. Don't get me wrong i'm not in any way racist. I just find this subject fascinating as I feel its a contradiction in terms.

What about my 1st point. Where is the music of white origin awards. Everyone must agree that if such an award show was held that there would be uproar....

I see your point and I understand what you're getting at, but my point is that, like you said, yes it is the 21st Century, and right now this "point of view" is acceptable. I'm not talking about what might happen in so many years, just about what is happening and what is relevant right now.

I'm not really interested in your first point right now tbh, I just felt the need to comment on the bit about Halle Berry.

Zombrex

eoin_s wrote:

I don't know if that is a great example; the percentage of black people in New Orleans is several times higher than the white population, so the law of averages dictates that you will see more black people affected by it.

The ratio of black to white in N.O city is 7 to 3, so if it was simply a case of the ratio you still should have seen a large number of white people milling around an even larger number of blacks. The reason you didn't is because of the issue of wealth, which so often in American life is confused with race. Simply put the poorest people in N.O are largely black, and it was the poorest people that could not leave.

eoin_s wrote:

I am in two minds about this. For the examples illustrated by the OP, I don't think positive discrimination is such a bad thing (legal or not).

Not quite sure what you mean by this, but I would point out that the MOBO awards are not discrimination, positive or other wise. The "black" part of Music Of Black Origin referrs to the style of music, not the skin colour of the performer.

"Black origin music" is a classification that includes things like hip-hop, R&B and soul music. As I have pointed out before to the OP, the term "white origin music" is largely meaningless as a description of music, which is why you don't have the MOWO awards.

SparkyLarks

eoin_s wrote:

I am in two minds about this. For the examples illustrated by the OP, I don't think positive discrimination is such a bad thing (legal or not).

MOBO awards isn't discrimination, just like an african american club isn't.
If Eminem wasn;t considered for a MOBOrap award, that would be discrimination, assuming he at the same time won lots of other rap awards that might be discrimination.

There is a difference between empower groups of people and discrimination.
People often get the 2 confused, and often people discriminate against one group inorder to empower another. Doing that just leads to more problems

ianmc38

Beruthiel wrote:

remember the storm in New Orleans?
who suffered the most from that? how many white people did you see? Things have a ways to go yet before equality is reached

Is that a joke? Or are you insinuating that Katrina is also a racist?

My original question was poorly put, as I'm dying with a hangover today after last nights fiasco. The point i was getting at is basically this:

I feel that much of the racism in modern day society is overshadowed by racism that has occured in the past, and that it the general consensus is that white people are the main protaganists when it comes to racism. In reality racism is rife throughout all cultures and ethnic groups and is certainly not isolated to white people.

bonkey

2. Acceptance speeches. The one that springs to mind here immediately is Halle Berry.

I would have thought a better example was Denzel's, when he said "Forty years I've been chasin' Sidney."

40 years between black actors (of any gender) winning an Oscar, and yet you seem to be suggesting that its racist to make a point of this discrepancy? Or is it Halle pointing out it was 79 years before a black woman won one that was racist?

I would have thought racism was more clearly suggested by the time periods in question then by the colour of the speakers referring to them.

Incidentally, one could argue that there was no discrimination because no black actor deserved an Oscar in the intervening period, but this then calls into question whether or not the casting process is racially skewed, and still validates the point.

If race isn't an issue, then one would expect a ratio of award-winners more commensurate with the acting community's racial mix.

This doesn't just happen with white/black divides - it also happens with male/female ones too. For example, a Dublin golf club is consistently at the centre of court cases because it only allows men as members. However, women-only gyms are becoming more and more popular, yet somehow this isn't sexist.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the problem with the Dublin golf course was that it allowed women to play, and to become associate members, but not to become full members. It didn't take a "eingle-gender-only" approach, it took a "reduced rights for one gender" approach. Women-only gyms do not allow men to use the facilities but not become members....they are fully gender-specific. There is a distinction between the two approaches.

In reality racism is rife throughout all cultures and ethnic groups and is certainly not isolated to white people.

Definitely, but its no excuse for white peoples' racism. "But the other guy is no better" is no excuse not to clean up an act.

jc

bonkey

Yes, african americna people have suffered in the past, but whats the shelf life of that argument

Once they're no longer discriminated against, and have reached something approaching social equality and equality of opportnuity, I would say.

So, quite a ways to go on that "best before", where I'm sitting.

Zombrex

ianmc38 wrote:

Is that a joke? Or are you insinuating that Katrina is also a racist?

No, I think she was insinuating that American political and emergency response system was not prepared (or willing) to protect and, after the event, help poor black Americans who could not help themselves. i am not sure if that is entirely true, but it does raise a lot of questions about poverty and race in America.

Also the phenomonon of the classification of black people "looters" and white people "doing what they can to survive" was a quite blantant example of the stereotypes embedded in American media and society as a whole, highlighted in its own satirical style by the true American news out let, The Onion -

"White Foragers Report Threat Of Black Looters"

NEW ORLEANS—Throughout the Gulf Coast, Caucasian suburbanites attempting to gather food and drink in the shattered wreckage of shopping districts have reported seeing African*Americans "looting snacks and beer from damaged businesses." "I was in the abandoned Wal-Mart gathering an air mattress so I could float out the potato chips, beef jerky, and Budweiser I'd managed to find," said white survivor Lars Wrightson, who had carefully selected foodstuffs whose salt and alcohol content provide protection against contamination. "Then I look up, and I see a whole family of [African-Americans] going straight for the booze. Hell, you could see they had already looted a fortune in diapers." Radio stations still in operation are advising store owners and white people in the affected areas to locate firearms in sporting-goods stores in order to protect themselves against marauding blacks looting gun shops."

ianmc38 wrote:

I feel that much of the racism in modern day society is overshadowed by racism that has occured in the past

What do you mean "overshadowed by"? Do you believe that people (I assume we are talking about white Americans) are generally not racist any more but are labelled racists because of what their parents and grand-parents believed?

ianmc38 wrote:

In reality racism is rife throughout all cultures and ethnic groups and is certainly not isolated to white people.

If racism is "rife" amoung all cultures doesn't that contradict your statement above? I'm confused.

No offense, but you seem to be saying "White Americans aren't racist any more but if they are well black people are just as racist"

I have completely failed to understand what point you are trying to make with this.

If it is that western media ignores racism when it is done by a black person, I don't believe that is true. It is quite easy to find articles, documentaries, movies and songs exploring the idea that "black people can't be racists". In fact it is often a subject tackled by African-American writers and directors themselves as a study on their own community and its relations with other American communities.

If it is that racism is largely gone from modern American society, well that is simple bulls**t to be honest. Racism has been largely removed from the law books, but you don't get over 300 years of racism in 30 years. Racism is also alive and well in Ireland. Only a few days ago I had a conversation with my friend about how her mother hated the idea of her going out with a black man, something a number of my friends have experienced.

stevenmu

Beruthiel wrote:

remember the storm in New Orleans?
who suffered the most from that? how many white people did you see? Things have a ways to go yet before equality is reached

Presumably they were hiding from all the black looters

Being serious, there were white people who suffered just as much as black people but the media, the bleeding heart liberals and various activists all focused in on the disadvantaged black victims as if they were the only ones, which kind of supports the OPs view.

Zombrex

stevenmu wrote:

Presumably they were hiding from all the black looters

Being serious, there were white people who suffered just as much as black people but the media, the bleeding heart liberals and various activists all focused in on the disadvantaged black victims as if they were the only ones, which kind of supports the OPs view.

Actually the response from the American news and magazine shows was quite the opposite, they focused on the heart breaking stories of whites in the suburbs who have lost their homes, and then focused on the looting, guns, rapes etc that were taking place in the largely black populations of the inner city of New Orleans.

Everytime you saw and interview with a white suburban person they were quietly sobbing over a smashed up house or car, claim they had lost everything and saying the would rebuild ... everytime you saw a black person they were screaming hysterically at the camera for food or water or having a gun pointed at them by a police officer.

Yes this is a generalisation, yes it doesn't hold for every interview and every news story, but I think the idea that the media only focused on the hardship of black americans is incorrect to the point of miss-leading.

stevenmu

Of the coverage I saw, which was mainly RTE, Sky News and the Indo, with the odd random article through google news, I'd guess at least 80% of it was about how the disadvantaged black community suffered because the rest of America left them there and didn't want to help because they were A: Poor and B: Black.

Eoin

Wicknight wrote:

Actually the response from the American news and magazine shows was quite the opposite, they focused on the heart breaking stories of whites in the suburbs who have lost their homes, and then focused on the looting, guns, rapes etc that were taking place in the largely black populations of the inner city of New Orleans.

Everytime you saw and interview with a white suburban person they were quietly sobbing over a smashed up house or car, claim they had lost everything and saying the would rebuild ... everytime you saw a black person they were screaming hysterically at the camera for food or water or having a gun pointed at them by a police officer.

Yes this is a generalisation, yes it doesn't hold for every interview and every news story, but I think the idea that the media only focused on the hardship of black americans is incorrect to the point of miss-leading.

I am probably opening myself to a lot of abuse here and I sincerely hope I am wrong, but there is a chance that the reporting was an accurate account of the situation.

Zombrex

eoin_s wrote:

I am probably opening myself to a lot of abuse here and I sincerely hope I am wrong, but there is a chance that the reporting was an accurate account of the situation.

I am not quite sure what you mean .. Define "accurate" ... the people in the suburbs were largely white and wealthy (relative to the inner city) and despite lossing everything they weren't starving or panicing and were being supported by the health services and emergency rescue .. the people in the city centre, who were largely poor and black or old and sick, and were panicking and desperate.

If you think every white suburban person was facing the horror with quite dignity and restraint while every black person in N.O city centre was panicking, looting and being hysterical, then I think you are wrong.

patzer117

Whatever about the situation in New Orleans, discrimination happens, whether we like it or not. In some cases I think it's good - in others, it's obviously extremely bad.

Kevin Myers had a great article on discrimination in 'An Irishman's Diary', and I think it's worth the read. It outlines necessary discrimination that takes place everyday, despite the fact that some people oppose it. I know it's a bit off topic but it's worth the read.

Patzer

Eoin

patzer117 wrote:

Whatever about the situation in New Orleans, discrimination happens, whether we like it or not. In some cases I think it's good - in others, it's obviously extremely bad.

Kevin Myers had a great article on discrimination in 'An Irishman's Diary', and I think it's worth the read. It outlines necessary discrimination that takes place everyday, despite the fact that some people oppose it. I know it's a bit off topic but it's worth the read.

Patzer

Some interesting points in that article patzer117 - it's actually a topic I was going to start a thread about on this forum. It's just a shame that he started making some good points, but then got a little silly.

cil_aine

isn't that always the case with kevin myers?

anyway, thought i'd say Happy Black History Month! (started in the 20's i beleive, when beleive it or not, there was immense discrimination/prejudice/racism towards the black community) We don't have a white history month as thats far too broad, just like the whole MOWO/MOBO argument. Black people at the time were a minority in places like the US and UK so had to have this special month to proove to people that they to have contributed immensely to society over the years.

Zombrex

cil_aine wrote:

Black people at the time were a minority in places like the US and UK so had to have this special month to proove to people that they to have contributed immensely to society over the years.

Are you saying they haven't?

And surely if it is black history month this week, then every other month is white history month, no?

SparkyLarks

Wicknight wrote:

Are you saying they haven't?

And surely if it is black history month this week, then every other month is white history month, no?

White history year resumes
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27933

Zombrex

SparkyLarks wrote:

White history year resumes
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27933

You got to love the Onion, point out the irrelivence of something like White History month while also poking fun at the way something like Black History Month is presented ... brillant

Some quotes -

Let's use these next 11 months to remember the other American history.
..
"Whites have contributed so much to this country," Frist continued. "Did you, for example, know that a white man, Jonas Salk, discovered the cure for polio? It's true."
..
"There's so much more white history out there than you might imagine"

pickarooney

eoin_s wrote:

However, it is true that black people are far from being treated as equal in the states, particularly in the poorer parts of America.

It's more the fact that they're poor than that they're black.

I can't recall Halle Berry saying it was a proud/shameful moment for black people when she won her golden raspberry for Catwoman.