What about unmetered access?

NeilF

There must be over two hundred posts in the last few days about ADSL. All that has happened is that after years of trials ADSL will be offered to a select few in Dublin at exorbitant prices. At least this is some progress and I am really happy for all you lucky people living next door to the Dublin exchanges and money growing trees. Really, I am But don't get carried away.

IrelandOffline was setup because of the NoLimits debacle. Don't forget that ADSL will only work near the exchanges, will only be offered where it is "economically viable" and cost more than unmetered 56k access. For a lot of the population an unmetered dial-up product (a la FRIACO) will be the only option. For others, it is an adequate stopgap solution while waiting for ADSL or it may be their product of choice given their budget, usage patterns etc. We need FRIACO.

However, the last I heard about unmetered dialup access was at the seminar. Pat Galvin, Eircom's Director of Regulatory Affairs basically said that they weren't really interested in an unmetered dial-up product (a la FRIACO) as it would delay even more the rollout of ADSL. It was regarded as a backwards step. However, the ODTR also mentioned moving to a IP/packet switched network, rather than using the phone/voice lines. There is also an ODTR doc (http://www.odtr.ie/docs/odtr0112a.doc) which is about the new 1892 (pay as you go) and 1893 (nolimits type) numbers. It says that "one mobile operator" (?!) is against unmetered dial-up for similar reasons that Eircom gave at the seminar.

The real battle is to get FRIACO. The cynic in me thinks that ADSL makes significantly more money than FRIACO and that we many never get unmetered access. What incentive have Eircom if they can take in excess of £1350 off customers in a year for a USB ADSL connection, with a monthly cap (according to other posts) reported to be 1gb? I want to pay less, not double or triple.

Should we be shouting more loudly for FRIACO?

smokin' an'chewin' man

Originally posted by NeilF
Should we be shouting more loudly for FRIACO?

a) Don't forget ADSL is flatrate.

b) It's inevitable that there's a lot of stuff about ADSL considering the launch of it and the insane pricing. It'll die down pretty soon.

But I agree that lowband flatrate access is in need of a shot in the arm by IrelandOffLine and I am sure they will do so when they announce a plan for the coming three months....

pertinax

if its capped and you end up paying by the meg after the cap then its not totally flatrate. well maybe it is but what i want is flate rate on my 56k and have it not capped at a decent price. decent price not meaning 90 pounds.
No Flaterate make Pertinax go mad.
If eircom dont want to introduce flaterate its their loss(and not in the way they think). But what cant be accepted surely is them stoping anyone else from implementing it?

infomat

Originally posted by NeilF

Should we be shouting more loudly for FRIACO?

While my main interest is ADSL and while I did start the most popular thread ever on IrelandOffline I have made this point in a number of previous postings because I believe that a reasonable priced universal flat rate service is what is required. I would prefer to see a version of SNL being made available to everyone.

At best ADSL will be available to a minority and living near an exchange and having a cash tree does not guarantee that one will actually get the service.

Nevertheless there are many people here who really do depend upon proper access and they are willing to pay an inflated price providing they are no extra charges introduced by any sort of cap.

Look on the bright side ... as soon as the very vocal minority get ADSL the debate should switch to other issues.

To be honest I have my doubts about FRIACO becoming available and I feel that we need to give consideration to other solutions such as wireless networks ... some have attempted to encourage interest in such ideas but with little success to date.

pete

Am I the only one who remembers back when local calls made from residential phones were flat rate? You paid 12p or whatever when the call was connected, then nothing more after that regardless of how long the call lasted.

This would have been back in the early to mid 80's....Or was it all a crazy dream?

My question is this (If I didn't imagine it):
Why was it economically viable then, and why is it not now?

And yes, I do realise that this predates telecom eireann, never mind eircom, and that charging by the minute generates a hell of a lot more profits.

I suppose my question would be better phrased like this:
Were TE (or was it the P&T?) actually losing money on those calls?

If not, why not?

And why would they now?

And why can't we have the same situation (or similar) for data calls now - subject to a monthly fee, of course.

infomat

Originally posted by pete
Am I the only one who remembers back when local calls made from residential phones were flat rate? You paid 12p or whatever when the call was connected, then nothing more after that regardless of how long the call lasted.

You are correct ... I remember well as I operated a bulletin board known as Infomatique and it died a death as soon as Telecom changed from flat rate (for local calls) to charging per time unit (over time these units got smaller and smaller until they reached 1 minute).

Also before I started using SurfNoLimits I think that I was paying 11P for 20Mins (maybe it was 15) and then when I get barred by Esat I find that I am paying 1P per min. Today, when I phoned about ADSL there was a message which appeared to indicate that they were introducing more changes and it would appear that there will be a minimum charge of 5P (or was it 6P) per call.

So it would appear that the time units are getting smaller and the minimum charge is constantly increasing. You can understand why they don't want to introduce flat rate access.

pete

i remember infomatique - can't remember what it was called, but i think i used the one run by stephen kearon (?) in foxrock mostly

but i digress

what i'm getting at is this - is there some reason (apart from the profit motive, of course - why this cannot be the case now?

has something changed in the infrastructure that makes it more expensive to make calls?

is this progress?


i'm also pretty pissed off with myself that on a day like this i can be getting angry about something as stupid as flat rate net / DSL.....

infomat

Originally posted by pete
i remember infomatique - can't remember what it was called, but i think i used the one run by stephen kearon (?) in foxrock mostly

but i digress

.

Stephen's BBS was originally known as DUBBS.

Like you I do not know why they could operate a flat rate way back in the dark ages but cannot do so now. It may be related to the fact that way back then costs were distance related rather than capacity related as they now.

NeilF

Originally posted by pete
And why can't we have the same situation (or similar) for data calls now

Though I was too young to use a phone at the time, I actually thought local calls were free in the eighties! I don't know why Eircom moved to per minute pricing for local calls but maybe (if FRIACO is such a problem) we should be asking for American style local calls (free).

For one thing it would change the ISP landscape dramatically. I don't think we have enough ISPs in Ireland and with free local calls I think you would see a lot more of the "mom and pop" type ISPs here.

Everyone talks of competition. If you are serious, open the lines to everyone and anyone and let ordinary people who can see a business opportunity to do something better get on with it.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by infomat

You are correct ... I remember well as I operated a bulletin board known as Infomatique and it died a death as soon as Telecom changed from flat rate (for local calls) to charging per time unit (over time these units got smaller and smaller until they reached 1 minute).

This is further proof that people WILL NOT USE THE INTERNET if per-minute rates are levied upon them. A further example is that when FRIACO was introduced in the UK, Internet usage there increased dramatically. Eircom, no matter how many statistics they fabricate, can not ignore this.

Answering a previous post: the only reason why providing flat-rate Internet access is not economical for Esat is because they have to actually PAY EIRCOM BY THE MINUTE whenever their customers are connected to the Internet. It would be ENTIRELY VIABLE for Eircom to offer flat-rate local calls again, because they own all the lines. Eircom appear to be telling us that Ireland has the world's worst telecommunications infrastructure. I do not believe this lie. Moreover, they are adding insult to injury by telling us that Irish people are too dumb to use the Internet, and therefore get bored of it (paraphrasing here, of course, but that's what they seem to be implying).

Edit: Apologies for my frankness and strong opinion, but I find it hard to stand idly by and watch Eircom 'harvest' the Irish population like it was a crop of potatoes.

Digi_Tilmitt

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Edit: Apologies for my frankness and strong opinion, but I find it hard to stand idly by and watch Eircom 'harvest' the Irish population like it was a crop of potatoes.

Ypur totally right, That dam eircom are stpoin us havin' fun on da net so they can have Massive Profits. Big Meanies!

Ronan|Raven

I too feel that a flatrate 56k access package is required.

For most people outside of the Dublin area i.e the west of the country it could be years before we see the roll out of ADSL, also a lot of people in the "country" who use the internet may be well out of range of the distance to the exchange required to avail of ADSL.

A flat rate package of say ir£30 per month for a 24/7 option would undoubhtdlylead to a mass in internet usage as people wouldnt be worrying about forking out gigantic amounts of cash in the form of bills for a very basic form of access.

But alas its Eircom were all dealing with who probly see no point in doing anything for the Irish Internet population other than line there ever bulging pockets

/me beats eircon with a giant man in a mouse costume

acous

has anyone any ideas on how to further the FRIACO situation?

there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing about it unless something can be done, so what needs to be done, and how can we do it?

(BTW flat rate 128k isdn would be nearly as good as adsl for me anyway, it would drop to 64k with an incoming call)

aidan_dunne

As one of the IOL 75 Hour Per Month Limit (previously known as No Limits!) refugees, I agree that FRIACO should be at the top of everyone's agenda. It's all right for all the Dubs to go on and on about ADSL but there is life beyond The Pale, you know!

Okay, I can understand all the talk about the ADSl prices because they really are scandalous but at least ye Dubs might have some chance of seeing ADSL. What about the rest of us, though? We sure as hell won't see ADSL in Portlaoise, for example, for at least 10 years I reckon if Eircom are taking as long as they are just to roll it out in Dublin. On top of that, not everybody can afford a hundred quid a month, capped or not. As I have said dozens of times on this forum, Eircom could have their own flat-rate package or FRIACO for the OLO's operating in the blink of an eye if they really put their minds to it. We need to keep pushing them to get flat-rate internet access operating as much as possible.

As I have also said before, but it bears repeating I feel, I would much rather pay my 20 quid a month for reliable, flat-rate, 24/7 dial-up access than 50, 60 or 100 quid for ADSL. Not everybody needs ADSL, you know. I would gladly settle for flat-rate dial-up access for about £20 per month anyday, as would a lot of people. And, seeing as it will take forever to get ADSL "down the country" anyway, I think we need to be seriously pushing for flat-rate in the meantime.

Eircom make my blood boil, I have to say, with their attitude to flat-rate or offering FRIACO to the OLO's. I know lots of people who are dying to get on the net but won't do it because of having to pay per-minute charges. We've all heard the horror stories of people running up huge phone bills because of these per-minute internet calls. It's these stories that put many people off wanting to connect to the net. However, people will gladly connect if they know exactly what they are paying for each month and know they won't get any nasty surprises when the bill comes through the door. For Eircom to turn around and make a statement like, "From our research, cost is not a factor when people are deciding to connect to the internet or not," is just bulls**t. What f**king planet are they living on? Ask anyone and they will say that cost is probably the primary consideration when it comes to getting hooked up to the net or not. Perhaps Eircom should actually get researchers out onto the street and find out what we DO want rather than sitting in their plush ivory tower and tell us what they THINK we want.

While ADSL is nice and everything, please don't forget about unmetered access as well, people. I was under the impression that Ireland Offline was set up to campaign for both unmetered AND broadband internet access. It seems everything has suddenly been swinging in the direction of ADSL and ADSL only. I hope Ireland Offline and everybody else aren't taking their eye off the ball and going to forget about the unmetered campaign.

As for doing something to try and push harder for flat-rate, I saw Valentia's ad in today's newspaper urging the shareholders to return their acceptance forms. Chances are Tony O' Reilly and his cohorts will be just as bad as Eircom when they take over but maybe we need to give up on Eircom and start putting our case to the new owners. The ad had Valentia's website address on it so I'm going to check it out and see is there an e-mail link or something on it so I can mail them and tell them what I and the rest of the country want. I'm going to tell them to put FRIACO at the top of their agenda when they take over. I know, I know, it's probably going to be a complete waste of time and I probably won't even get an e-mail of acknowledgement from them but I'm going to do it anyway. Maybe we should all do it too and see what happens. The more the merrier, as they say, and as was shown in an episode of The Simpsons once perhaps they will recognise that "the screwballs have spoken" and be more open-minded and more willing to listen to us than Eircom's current shower of b*****ds are!

Digi_Tilmitt

a

Digi_Tilmitt

Aidan_dunne I totally agree with you. We need normal flat-rate before filppen ASDL. I think Ireland-offfline should concentrate on this a lot more, its all a lot of us folk want.

Remember, you have to crawl before you can walk.

Urban Weigl

I agree that unmetered narrowband dialup accounts using 56k and ISDN technology is more important than broadband at this time. Don't get me wrong: I believe that new technologies such as ADSL are extremely important as well.

mike65

Originally posted by Digi_Tilmitt
Aidan_dunne I totally agree with you. We need normal flat-rate before filppen ASDL. I think Ireland-offfline should concentrate on this a lot more, its all a lot of us folk want.

Remember, you have to crawl before you can walk.

Here, here!

Waterford, where I live will be lucky to see
dsl before end 2002 and if the attitude of other organisations
to Waterford is a guide, proberly not for years after that.And of
course the prices are a joke, flat rate can be introduced
at the drop of a hat, so it should be IOLs' main focus.

NeilF

Eircom is motivated by making money. ADSL will only be available in the Dublin exchanges because they know they stand to make quite a large profit on it. Someone in another thread has been busy with their calculator and reckons that Eircom wants to recoup their investment in one year for ADSL! If that is how you make money it isn't even worth getting up out of bed for FRIACO.

I can't believe that everyone is happy just to let the process stagnate. Esat submitted what I think was called a statement of requirements to Eircom. Now they are bickering over that and the ODTR and the government are watching the shambles. Esat seem pretty keen for FRIACO (hence they introduced NoLimits) yet they are doing nothing about this stalling. They could at least involve the ODTR. And if that doesn't work go to the High Court. Esat would have deep pockets and are good at PR. They would come out of something like this smelling of roses and ultimately get our vote as the people who sorted out Eircom and got FRIACO. Instead they are getting a reputation as bad as Eircom's.

If there is no progress SOON we will need government intervention. Simple. It is, as they would say on Bull Island, in the national interest It helps small indigenous business, educates population, encourages teleworking which reduces pollution etc.) FRIACO isn't some fancy thing for a small percentage that live on the net. It is a necessity for many people and would be an immense benefit to many others. Before IrelandOffline was formed there was no one to complain, issue press releases etc. Now that we are an organised force we will start to change things.

Martin's last email said that he was working on some political scheme and I eagerly await his next update. Donegal won't be getting ADSL any time soon so I think I can safely assume that the committee want FRIACO as badly as we do! We do need ADSL but FRIACO should come first. It benefits everyone. We can then move forward for proper broadband for everyone. This shouldn't be seen as a FRIACO vs. ADSL debate. I don't think any of us will be happy until we have fiber to the door

SkepticOne

I agree with most of the posters here. If IrelandOffline were to be forced to keep only one of its aims, it should be flat-rate dialup.

angryuser

As has often been said, we set up this forum etc because we were kicked off nolimits. All the technical talk about speed and ADSL etc leaves me cold. I, like almost all others want and need a flat rate unmetered access, and we on Irelandoffline should concentrate "everything" on getting that FIRST. The rest of the stuff "might" follow, in years to come, but no way will the majority of us get it for a long, long time. So. Lets PLEASE push for our original objective = unmetered flat rate access. !!!! Lets see 100's of posts to this thread showing members approval for this approach ..?? (committee, please note !!!)

chernobyl

The only way there will be Flatrate anything is if Esat get their $hit into exchanges and get LLU [for real], and even if they do it will only happen in dublin.
if you want flatrate and your not in dublin get 2way satellite.
i may be a pesamist but i have been on the net for years and high costs have become the norm.

R. Daneel Olivaw

chernobyl: that is what I really fear is happening. People EXPECT £100+/month for net use, way beyond the rest of western world.

The phone network is national and goes everywhere. Eircom can't whine like children about having to recoup investments, etc., as they need to invest nothing.

In fact all they need to do is go back to the pricing scheme from the early 80s, and we have national FRIACO in an instant.

It's so sad that they can't be a successful company with the national monopoly for years now, and gross overcharging. How can one compnay suck so much in both bad customer service and inability to compete in the business world? Usually a company gets one of those right at least...........

I am all for FRIACO as priority. ADSL was an issue because people expected it to be uncapped broadband like the US, Canada and European Union.

Fergus2

hey infomat.. remember IACCBBS?

NeilF

Originally posted by R. Daneel Olivaw
In fact all they need to do is go back to the pricing scheme from the early 80s, and we have national FRIACO in an instant.

I think that would be even better than FRIACO as it would mean anyone could setup as an ISP. I would much rather give a tenner a month to a local ISP than Esat/BT or Eircom/O'Reilly.

When we sort out the cost of access we will have other problems like customer service and variety of products. The UK is fine because there are so many ISPs. The dial-up market here is largely dominated by three: Esat/IOL/Oceanfree, Eircom/Indigo and UTV to a lesser extent. We need competition here too.

Digi_Tilmitt

BT should come into this market and sort out eircom with competiton. HAR HAR HAR!

chernobyl

ahhh but BT are already here, the difference is BT played ball with Eircom in english exchanges eircom then turned and buried the telecom biatch knife...grr grr |->

Couch Potato

What happens when Valentia takes over Eircom so what do Eircom care ??

Bard

Originally posted by Digi_Tilmitt
BT should come into this market and sort out eircom with competiton. HAR HAR HAR!

they're already here and have been for some time.

Esat is owned by BT...

Digi_Tilmitt

The goverent should intervene and make evething nice.

Urban Weigl

Just had a thought: the ODTR can not set Eircom's prices, but they CAN set wholesale prices for products which already exist right? Well, how about they set the wholesale price of a local call to a flat 5p? That would mean that Eircom's competitors could offer flat rate Internet and local calls, resulting in Eircom also having to offer this to stop people from moving to the competition...

I am by no means an expert on this in any way, but from my understanding, this might just work.

NeilF

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Just had a thought: the ODTR can not set Eircom's prices, but they CAN set wholesale prices for products which already exist right? Well, how about they set the wholesale price of a local call to a flat 5p?

The only restriction on the wholesale price, that I know of, is that it must reflect the cost to Eircom. It would certainly be a bold step, which means it is unlikely to happen. However, if the ODTR made such a ruling it would stand unless Eircom challenged it in the High Court, which I am sure they would.

I don't know why we just don't let courts decide everything in this country. Everything gets appealed.

Still, nifty little plan. I hope someone from the ODTR is listening

adeypius

which should come first
the chicken or the egg
adsl or unmetered access
hi tec or lo spec

unmetered access is the lowest common denominator

this for me should come first

vinnyfitz

Friaco is not a dead duck!
In fact getting it offered is quite simple!
New legislation giving more power to the regulator is due before the Dail in the next few weeks.
We must make sure that one new power she gets is to be able to instruct Eircon to offer always on narrow band interconnect product to other operators.

Is this part of the current draft legislation at this stage?
It was not in the Heads of Bill published in March but maybe things have changed?
I really think the committee should follow this up with the Department.
If the Regulator had the power to force Eircom to offer this sort of interconnect product I bet she would use it fast, other operators would buy it in and we would get real competition at the retail end.
For me the second real worry is that this legislation will not appear/get through before the election in which case we fall back another 12 months.
Where is the Bill - Minister?

Bard

The posts in this thread about the idea of a BOYCOTT on EIRCOM have been split off into a new seperate thread as it was basically a new topic.

You'll find that thread here