Graduate Starting salaries - IT

FrankGrimes

I work for a large multinational consultancy firm (IBM would regard them as one of their main competitors in this space).

Starting salary for all graduates is now 29k. After first year all graduates who have made the cut (its rare someone doesnt hack it as the interview process is so tight) move to 35.5k. After that annual reviews are performance based. I am on 45k now after 23 months in the job, and based on my performance ratings am expecting to go to 52k in the next yearly review.

jank

I work for a large multinational consultancy firm

Accenture!?

MicraBoy

I know a few people who have worked in IBM. And the common theme that seems to run through any work conversations with them is that IBM are extremely tight fisted with the salaries.

red vex

madramor wrote:

with the low standard of todays degree courses a 2:1
just ain't that good.

Thats a load of crap.

20k to 26k is what ive seen as grad salaries, theres always exceptions though

Anyone got any suggestions on how to get decent experience when noone wants to hire graduates.

madramor

1:
entry points IT to degree courses are virtually
non existent

2:
so many degree courses that theres not enough good
lecturers to teach on them.

3:
a lot of colleged rushed to get a IT degree course
going and created very poor courses.

4:
they are letting people who fail their exams stay in
the courses.
Fact in the CA course in DCU in 2001 so many people
failed their first year programming exam repeats,
that they had to go in for an interview with their
lecturer and go through the exam paper that they failed
to see if the lecturer thought they new enough to proceed
to second year eventhough they failed the exam twice.
I know this for a fact told by a lecturer in 2001 so who
knows if it goes on every year.

Thats why the standard of todays degree courses are s**t

red vex wrote:

Thats a load of crap.

any chance you have an intelligent arguement as to why thats
a load of crap.

Rew

madramor wrote:

so did you have previous jobs or are you just starting
your first job

with the low standard of todays degree courses a 2:1
just ain't that good.

I don't believe your %37% figure.
1:
What sector is the company in
2:
what sort of company is it(multinational,small,foreign,etc..)
3:
did you discuss your pay increases
graduate salaries usually rise by 30-50% in 2 years of graduating

Its just not fesible for a compnay to pay a graduate that much.

Do you work for the compnay that does PPARS?

I saw the peole that got 1.1's and I wouldn't let em near a computer. I had technical interviews as well as HR ones. HR manager is extreamly well qualified so it wasn't a mistake on their part. My MSc is research not taught.

I know guys with a niche MSc who started in the 40's.

Other jobs were work placements and summer jobs. I have a pay review once a year like everyone else, my first one comes up in about 9 months (from when I started).

Im costing less then the previous guy and doing a better job of it so thats how they can afford me.

We dont do PPARS

Guys I have no good reason to lie about my salary.

red vex

I was in that class. Failure rate for programming in both semester1 & 2 wasnt overly high. The issue that you were reffering to was one exam in continous assessment. I was a contoversial test that a lot of people failed and because people cant pass the year without passing continous assesment a review was made.

1 The people currently graduating from CA in DCU this year entered when the points were 395. The graduates who entered on the 300 points cap wont be graduating for another 2 years

2 I dont see much of a lecturer turnover for CA. I dont see your argument here

3 Similar to above

4 Ive seen no evidence of this yet. Dropout/failure rates in Computing courses is still enormous. I cant speak for other courses but it is in CA

jank

madramor wrote:

1:entry points IT to degree courses are virtually
non existent

Yes but 4-5 years ago they were much higher these are the grads that are out there now looking for work.

madramor wrote:

2:
so many degree courses that theres not enough good
lecturers to teach on them.

This is true with more or less every sector as there are so many more courses now then say even 8 years ago

madramor wrote:

3:a lot of colleged rushed to get a IT degree course
going and created very poor courses.

A lot of colleges had some sort of IT course going since the 80's just that they diversived what they taught to include more modern things like IT in education, networking, game design etc.

madramor wrote:

4:they are letting people who fail their exams stay in
the courses.
Fact in the CA course in DCU in 2001 so many people
failed their first year programming exam repeats,
that they had to go in for an interview with their
lecturer and go through the exam paper that they failed
to see if the lecturer thought they new enough to proceed
to second year eventhough they failed the exam twice.
I know this for a fact told by a lecturer in 2001 so who
knows if it goes on every year.

Thats why the standard of todays degree courses are s**t

Man that is bad if it is true. The HETAC are there to provide a standard to be adhered to.

I can tell you that in my degree if you fail, you fail thats that and sometimes there would be a good 30-40% repeating a hard subject. So its not true in all cases.

I started out in first year with 81 class mates. When we graduated my class consisted of about 34 from that group and another 3-4 of students who failed a year.
2 got a first class honour, around 9/10 got a 2:1 and 15ish got 2:2. The rest, a sizable proporation got a pass degree.

This was when my course had a 380 points to get into it. Most 420+. So are we all just thick or was the course hard and a challenge.
If you came out of my course with a good honours then clearly you know something and are a capable graduate with IT.

Clearly there was no drop in standards to let people pass for the sake of it, so you cant tar all courses with the same brush.

Julesie

Im currently working for IBM on a part time basis while i finish the last year of my degree. As an undergrad i get their standard 17k package pro rated for the hours i work. The salary seems to be the same regardless what area of the business you work in be it (Finance/IT/Consulting etc.) While they are a great company to work for and very accomodating i certainly wouldnt be raving about their salaries. If i was to stay on after i graduate i would be expecting something around 26/28k. A classmate of mine has just signed a contract with an investment bank in london for 35k Sterling which is approx. 50k in euro, so if you are willing to travel there are certainly better offers out there. Personally a move to london doesnt appeal to me but i'll be looking domestically this year as i believe the year you graduate is your strongest year to secure a decent job.

seamus

Guys, there seems to be a lot of confusing Grad jobs with jobs advertised for graduates.

Any company that runs a graduate programme, hires in people to get somewhere specific in IT, to start them on the road to a career. You get hired into a company that is actually about IT, IBM for example, who train you to become a programmer, a network design engineer, and plenty of other fancy names. There is usually a specific intake each year, and specific method of applying, and strict requirements in terms of the quality of your degree.

A company who advertises a job for a "graduate" is not necessarily looking for any of the above. It has a job for someone with no experience, it's not necessarily a perennial position, and you're being hired to do that job, with the same promotion/advancement prospects as everyone else. You're not being hired with the specific goal of kickstarting your career.

Grad programmes in IT companies typically pay good money for someone starting out with a BSc degree and no experience - around 25k. Graduate "positions" in non-IT companies don't pay so well, unless you get lucky, between 18k-23k typically. It's extremely rare that an IT company will have incidental positions come up at the graduate level, since most holes are plugged by the annual intake.

Civilian_Target

Stark wrote:

Sorry, post was a little ambiguous. EB was €21,000, up from €18,000 the year before. €18k was seriously taking the piss considering how much IBM gets out of it.

Not really. Think how much the graduate gets out of it! You get the opportunity to mess around with some really high-powered gear for a few months and do an extremely interesting job. It wouldn't be something you do for the money, if you ask me, you'd do it for the experience. It's probably going to add about €3k-4k a year to your average salary for the next 5 years or so (if you choose not to work for IBM that is), so I wouldn't complain if I were you.

deadfingers

I had a few mates in IBM they were promised this and that but they ended up doing the same old stuff day after day .....

red vex

it still looks better on your CV than something like tech support

AARRRGH

ianmc38 wrote:

When was this? In what role? Name?

I'm not going to flame but that is a load of pony. Perhaps you did tech support for them, but anyone who's interviewed for localisation positions or graduate programme will know this is pure waffle. 3 rounds of interviews for a job. Yeah really easy, they're not selective at all. Hire all the idiots that make it through 3 rounds of extremely technical interviews.

Again waffle, 1 of my friends started in Microsoft recently on 25k, graduate position. Pay rates do rise quickly though.

<sigh>

You really have no idea wat you're talking about.

I worked for Microsoft. I was a Build Engineer. The interview was simple ( a few technical questions, what's the problem? I'm an engineer - right?)

The people in Microsoft are NOT smart. I still have lots of friends there - they will tell you this yourself. It's where non-technical people get technical jobs.

My starting salary was 24k. I already had experience.

If you want a difficult interview, get a Linux based development role in AOL. My interview was 2.5 hours switching from Technical to HR to Technical to HR. Seriously demanding.

ianmc38

dublindude wrote:

The people in Microsoft are NOT smart.

yeah the biggest and most successful computer corporation in the world. Pretty stupid bunch alright. Don't have a clue what they're doing.

AARRRGH

ianmc38 wrote:

yeah the biggest and most successful computer corporation in the world. Pretty stupid bunch alright. Don't have a clue what they're doing.

Sorry let me rephrase - the people in Microsoft IRELAND. We are, after all, just a localisation centre.

AndyWarhol

dublindude wrote:

Bull-****ing-****.

??????????

http://www.aldi.ie/recruitment/recruitment_1.html - No where does this suggest it is a graduate programme. It is very obviously for experienced managers.

35k for a graduate in ESB? I assume you have a PhD and your father works for ESB, right?

Total nonsense...

No it's not. ESB Networks offered me €35 with a primary degree in electronic eng.

Also about the Aldi program - it's the area manager program and they are taking graduates with the right qualities.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Rew

Accenture and the like really annoy me because they require minimum LC points. The LC is a joke and ill never work for anyone asks me what my point were, its just petty and irelevent after you have a degree/masters.

madramor

Rew wrote:

Accenture and the like really annoy me because they require minimum LC points. The LC is a joke and ill never work for anyone asks me what my point were, its just petty and irelevent after you have a degree/masters.

shows how much they value irish degrees

Rew

madramor wrote:

shows how much they value irish degrees

They look for the equivlent results from the english final exams. They think its an easy way to cut down the numbers of applications but I don't think its a particularly good method.

the_syco

Stark wrote:

Not like IBM where everyone, managers and colleagues alike are absolutely lovely and the work is fun and stimulating.

OT, but I've heard that with IBM you HAVE TO close the call in 6 minutes (in the IT Support section), or something. Is that true?

=-=

€18,000 - no cert, no exp
€19,000 - cert, no exp
€20,000 - cert + 6 months exp
€21,000 - cert + 1 years exp

This would be the rates that I've been given over the past while, when looking for a job. I have seen companies offer €17.5 if you have a cert + 6 months exp. I don't know what rates someone with a degree would get, as I don't have one.

Someone getting offered €30,000 is not impossible, if they knew how to ask, and had an ace up their sleeve, such as exp in a relevent company. The way the employer would see it is that the person would be able to start on X application without training. You can have an honours 4 year degree, but still need training on their systems. Or you could have a cert and have worked on X application in a previous job. The latter may look better, as they can start straight away, no training given. Thus, exp is sometimes better than degree's. Saying that, if the course was sponsored by a company, so that the grads would be in tune with a specific piece of software which that company uses, the degree may be worth something.

shoegirl

Stark wrote:

I've just started working a job with the promise of "competitive salary", as in the salary I'd be getting would match what I'd get in similar companies. However the salary hasn't gone up this year to match the market and now they want me to come back with some company names and the equivalent salaries to help me press my case.Iona

I hate to burst your bubble but "competitive salary" is generally waffle. Household names often pay slightly less that you'd expect because they do attract a lot of good candidates and can depend on people **wanting** to work for them. Also there is not only a large glut of IT people, but lots of people with experience and different qualification types - so its a buyers market. In tech support for example, salaries have been falling since about 2002 as there are loads of people with similar experience, skills and qualifications. And sadly, there are loads of potential graduate developers oeprating petrol pumps because they've never even managed to get their foot in the door in the first place, never mind into Microsoft on 25k.

Be thankful that you're not one of these people. I know people with 2.1 degrees from TCD and second languages who've been unable to break into development at all 4 years after graduating unless they were willing to take wages starting on 19k or so.

Also be aware that wages have stagnated since about 2002 - in many cases starting wages were cut in the multinationals that year, they haven't really risen since.

What I'd suggest is that you get 1-2 years of experience, keep up to date on emerging technologies and at the end start looking for contract work which will build up your experience and exposure to different technologies. Also consider certifications - a lot of people who work in recruiting are clueless salespeople who don't really understand what you do and certificates are good hard evidence of real world skills.

trotter_inc

I graduated 3 years ago and started on €28,000 pa with a software company...

rick_fantastic

i earn 22.09€ an hour part time working in IT and im in fourth year computer science.

a guy i know did an msc in strategic management and started first job (no experience) on €38000

RicardoSmith

http://www.cpl.ie/salary2005.asp

Theres some jammy gits around thats all I'll say.

GenericName

I'm an IT graduate currently looking to start work. I got a call from a recruiter this morning about a J2EE development role. When he asked what I was looking for I said €24- €27K based on what I've read here. But he seemed surprised and said he'd put me through for no less than €27k.

-So it felt as if 27k was selling myself short by at least 2-3 thousand. I have 6 months work experience and a final year project relevent to the role, but that's all and I attained a first.

RicardoSmith

GenericName wrote:

...So it felt as if 27k was selling myself short by at least 2-3 thousand. I have 6 months work experience and a final year project relevent to the role, but that's all and I attained a first.

The 1st and the relevent experience should get you a more €€€€ then the average grad. At least that would be my expectation.

protos

Slightly offtopic I know but I've been working abroad for the last 6 years
and am considering going back to Ireland - anyone have ballpark figures for
a developer with 5+ years experience ? And whats the jobs market like for
someone in that position ?

Last 3 years were webby stuff php/coldfusion/xml all that sort of stuff
1 year C++ and java network tcp/ip programing.
1 year C/C++ opengl graphics programming.

I haven't a clue about the IT industry in Ireland so any input would be appreciated.

Rolo Tomassi

IT in Ireland faces a dismal future. Salaries are coming down and an awful of work/resources is being sent to India. Will be difficult to get a straight coding job in years to come...