Two tolls for the M3

dbyrne

Just looking at the new m3 motorway site, thinking of moving to meath, but it casts some doubts on how people can commute to dublin everyday if there is going to be an extra 4 - 5 yoyos a day for getting in and out of the city for a road that you have already paid for.

on the link below, go to page 3 of 4 and you will see the location of the 2 toll booths in question.

http://www.m3motorway.ie/Publications/file,1750,en.pdf

this is absolutely crazy, you cannot put 2 tolls on it, think of the nightmare and the traffic jams. just use the old n3 but i am sure that the n3/m3 link up will be just before the tolls, like the m1 so that you cannot escape.

also i heard that the outer ring road that is to be built to link tallaght/lucan/clonee is also to meet somewhere around the tolls, think i read it in a pdf on the meath council website, have to check my facts on this one before i go nuts.

has anyone else heard of this and why arent the people of meath going nuts..

Victor

dbyrne wrote:

has anyone else heard of this and why arent the people of meath going nuts..

Because Kells people will drive to Navan to bypass the first toll, whereas Cavan people and others can't get around the toll so easily. Meath people will end up paying only one toll and will continue to vote for the usual politicians.

for a road that you have already paid for.

Could you explain this bit?

dbyrne

thats ok but if you have a business for example in cavan and you have to go 3 - 4 times a week to dublin its going to cost you alot of money. or vice versa.
Even if you decide to go to donegal for the weekend it could cost you € 10 in tolls to get their and back (im taking that the toll would be 2 - 2.50 each way)

Quote:
for a road that you have already paid for.

there is no major need for the PPPs as we pay over the odds for road tax etc and europe also give us crazy amounts of money to invest in our roads, the problem is that too much is wasted. tolls cause traffic jams and loss of earnings sitting in traffic
you could always toll the roads and opnce they are paid for remove the tolls... alot of people would be happy with that i am sure. the amoun of money that nto get for the tolls but the government make even more from the tolls tha the nto do and that is a discrace.

BrianD

Well this was debated at length a few months ago. The people of Meath have been duped wholesale by the political supporters of this uneccessary motorway - a monument to appaling planning, bureacrats and the destruction of one of the most significant and iconic historical sites in Ireland - Tara. The government tried to deflect the attention and criticism of the M3 onto those "unelected" environmentalist. Who remembers that laughable publicity shot of Cullen and that idiot FF councillor from Navan who was a candidate - taken on the N3 at Blanchardstown - the only part of the road that is near motorway standard - saying that the m-way will cure all this. Bottom line is that Meath commuters don't need this road - they will still queue on the approaches to the M50, they will still queue at the two sets of toll booths and they will still have no rail alternative to travelling by road (those going to the P+R at Dunboyne will still have to pay the tolls so they may as well continue driving).

This road will operate at undercapacity just like the M1 and the M2, sorry N2, that run parallel to it. SO who benefits? Meath commuters? No, an upgrade on the N3 would have met their needs. Bureaucrats? Yes. once it's built it justifys their existence and covers up their ineptidude. The real winners are ... you guessed .... PROPERTY OWNERS! Wholesale planning permissions can now be granted for endless sub standard housing estates, retail parks, hotels and just about anything else you care to think of. In fact applications are already piling on the basis that the M3 will be opened 'soon'. Large land banks have already been purchased by well known people in the building industry.

Meath councillors ... the guys who fought for the M3 and put hotels beside castles!

Trampas

Is the current N3 nearer to the hill of tara than the proposed m3??

dbyrne

yes the m3 will be further away, it will be closer to skeen, look at the new m3 motorway website, link above, and you can see from the maps where it will run

cournioni

BrianD wrote:

Well this was debated at length a few months ago. The people of Meath have been duped wholesale by the political supporters of this uneccessary motorway - a monument to appaling planning, bureacrats and the destruction of one of the most significant and iconic historical sites in Ireland - Tara. The government tried to deflect the attention and criticism of the M3 onto those "unelected" environmentalist. Who remembers that laughable publicity shot of Cullen and that idiot FF councillor from Navan who was a candidate - taken on the N3 at Blanchardstown - the only part of the road that is near motorway standard - saying that the m-way will cure all this. Bottom line is that Meath commuters don't need this road - they will still queue on the approaches to the M50, they will still queue at the two sets of toll booths and they will still have no rail alternative to travelling by road (those going to the P+R at Dunboyne will still have to pay the tolls so they may as well continue driving).

This road will operate at undercapacity just like the M1 and the M2, sorry N2, that run parallel to it. SO who benefits? Meath commuters? No, an upgrade on the N3 would have met their needs. Bureaucrats? Yes. once it's built it justifys their existence and covers up their ineptidude. The real winners are ... you guessed .... PROPERTY OWNERS! Wholesale planning permissions can now be granted for endless sub standard housing estates, retail parks, hotels and just about anything else you care to think of. In fact applications are already piling on the basis that the M3 will be opened 'soon'. Large land banks have already been purchased by well known people in the building industry.

Meath councillors ... the guys who fought for the M3 and put hotels beside castles!

Wow... I've never seen such a misty eyed arguement in all of my life, you should join the DUP or something. Your point on the Hill of Tara is laughable. You should really look into the fact that it is further away from the M3 than the current N3.

Why do Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh/Donegal people want the M3 to happen?

Safety. The current N3 is one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland with the amount of traffic on it at the moment. And I'm pretty sure the residents of Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin want to see fewer cars on the streets of their towns too because of this too. I'm sure they are having fun trying to cross the road with their kids going to school.

Can you not see these people benefiting? I'm pretty sure families who have lost their sons and daughters to this road over the years would welcome it.

And there you are thinking about property owners... :rolleyes:

Maskhadov

The only real solution for commuters is to reopen a rail line to Navan in the short term and eventually extend it all the way to Cavan.

BrianD

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Wow... I've never seen such a misty eyed arguement in all of my life, you should join the DUP or something. Your point on the Hill of Tara is laughable. You should really look into the fact that it is further away from the M3 than the current N3.

Why do Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh/Donegal people want the M3 to happen?

Safety. The current N3 is one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland with the amount of traffic on it at the moment. And I'm pretty sure the residents of Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin want to see fewer cars on the streets of their towns too because of this too. I'm sure they are having fun trying to cross the road with their kids going to school.

Can you not see these people benefiting? I'm pretty sure families who have lost their sons and daughters to this road over the years would welcome it.

And there you are thinking about property owners... :rolleyes:

I am from the area and have lived and commuted there for years. There is no evidence to support your claims that the N3 is a dangerous road (any more than any other route) and the fact is that the N3 is probably in better condition then other N routes. Take a trip to Waterford and you'll notice the difference.

The FACT of the matter is that needs of all N3 users could be met by a modest upgrade of the route and by bypasses of Dunshaughlin, Kells and Navan - all of these were on the cards until the M3 was proposed. The M3 could not be justified if they had been built.

Take a scan down the planning list and look at the number of new applications that use the M3 as a justification. Properties are already being advertised with M3 frontage. Plenty of more cars for the toll plaza queues. It is obvious that Dublin's sprawl can only go one direction - north and west. The M3, N (really M) and M1 facilitate this. You might want have a look who's already got land banks close to the M3 route.

The hill of tara is iconic and few countries would allow a road like the M3 so close to a national monument. The current location of the N3 is irrelevant to the arguement. The other shocking fact that the well paid planners should have anticipated that running a motorway through an area of significant archaelogical importance would cause controversy, delay and a possible rerouting all at the tax payers expense and commuters left with a route that is in need of upgrading.

At the same time, no committment is given to a rail alternative for commuters. Plenty of talk when the elections were on and then the possibility of a spur to Dunboyne. All talk ... no substance ... no plan. No doubt when the M3 will be built there will be disruption while they build rail bridges.

Anyway, I'm getting the parents to known down the house and we'll build an Ikea or something. We'll figure out how to get the traffic of the m-way one way or another ...

SeanW

The M3 has all the hallmarks of a scam-job. One thing that is not well known about the M3 is that it will destroy any probability of the Navan-Clonsilla line being rebuilt.

Why? The M3 is another "nail in the coffin" of a long list of violations of the old alignment. There have been houses built on it, sewer mains laid on it, and now the M3 will cross that alignment again at grade. See here.

And to think FF came to power in 2002 promising a commuter railway service to Navan ...

murphaph

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Why do Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh/Donegal people want the M3 to happen?

Fermanagh is in a foreign country, so I couldn't givea monkey's if they want it to happen.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Safety. The current N3 is one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland with the amount of traffic on it at the moment.

Ah the old 'if you can't think of anything just make up statistics!'. The N3 through Meath is classified as 'medium risk' by EuroRAP, the N3 through Cavn is even safer at 'low-medium risk' and the A509 in Fermanagh is effing 'High Rsk', so maybe the people of Fermanagh should look closer to hom for road upgrades! (source )

PORNAPSTER wrote:

And I'm pretty sure the residents of Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin want to see fewer cars on the streets of their towns too because of this too. I'm sure they are having fun trying to cross the road with their kids going to school.

All could have been solved a lon time ago if the proposed bypasses of these towns had proceeded instead of being binned so the M3 money maker could e built.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Can you not see these people benefiting? I'm pretty sure families who have lost their sons and daughters to this road over the years would welcome it.

You can get emotive, but the statistics don't back you up. The road is already quite safe and a modestly priced upgrade to 2+1 n places and a GSJ or two coupled with bypasses of the aforementioned towns would make the road perfectly safe. As has been said before, try some of the other N routes in Ireland to see real danger. The N3 is a good road with a few dodgy bits (especially between Kells & Navan) that could b sorted with an online upgrade.

To be quite honest, I couldn't give a monkey's about the M3 but I know it's a scam to make money for FF cronies It'll do nothing for the users of the road that coldn't have been achieved at much reduced cost and without imposing tolls on the users. I know I'll never use the M3 if every other mug is on it I'll keep using the old road cos it's fine IMO.

rcunning03

Is it true there really is going to be two tolls on the M3 motorway ? Who's going to pay two tolls on the same motorway ? Seems crazy if it's true

Victor

Yes, one toll near Dunboyne and one near Kells.

rcunning03

Victor wrote:

Yes, one toll near Dunboyne and one near Kells.

No wonder they're building near Tara, Bury the fact there's going to be two tolls by building near an historic monument.

Navan Junction

Yip, 2 tolls each way if you travelling from north of Navan.

Or 3 tolls each way, 6 per day if you are unfortunate to work sth of the the M50 toll Plaza......

Or 2 tolls to use Pace P&R which is likely to be as close to Navan as the Clonsilla railway will get.

Some good news is that it is rumoured that there will be a clause or mechanism to off-set your toll payments against P&R payments - whether that is just bull remains to be seen..

Case of IÉ having to subsidise the toll?

BTW, the toll submissions were accepted 5 years ago, and the Inquiry is not obliged to accept any submissions other than those made then.

One of the 4 objectors was MCC - The NRA is refusing to give details as to who the others are or if they have been withdrawn.

Which means that the Inquiry may be a complete sham.

I won't be attending the Public Inquiry as I have absolutely no confidence that it will make any difference.

Flukey

When will they ever learn?:mad: They build lovely new roads and then immediately add a discouragement to use them. It is madness. And, yes, it could be done without bringing in the private people and giving them a license to rip off people for decades after. They could come to other P & P arrangements without doing that, or even get them built other ways.

NRA = National Rip-off Authority.

rcunning03

Flukey wrote:

When will they ever learn ?

Probably when we all take up our pitchforks march down O'Connell st and take over the GPO. Can't see it happening in my lifetime unfortunately.

Ham'nd'egger

Flukey wrote:

When will they ever learn?:mad: They build lovely new roads and then immediately add a discouragement to use them.

NRA = National Rip-off Authority.

No offence, but there is two good reasons why I like the idea of toll roads, the fact that a private entity is willing to build a road and thus saves the State and CC's a lot of money (not to mention the indirect taxes earned from wages of workers on these roads ) and the simple fact that a road toll is the most effective form of road tax as it charges the user of said road against the cost of making said road.

Indeed, in the long term, the State will earn money from the tolling of a road from VAT and commission on the tolls so that way, it gives the taxpayer "Value for Money", a buzz term in all Government departments and it can be put to use in other areas such as Education, health etc.

I am not saying it is the right way to do everything, but the benefits are greater than they appear on the surface.

Chris_533976

One toll is ok, not gonna kill anyone. But two is a bit silly.

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

No offence, but there is two good reasons why I like the idea of toll roads

I agree. Lets stick 2 tolls on the n17 and rip up the wrc.

How about that for balanced regional development?

The M3 is the VHI approach to road building - if we were all being treated equally, fine but we are not.

Social justice my hole.

rcunning03

Hamndegger wrote:

put to use in other areas such as Education, health etc.

If they actual did that then I would agree with you (to an extent, I think the motorists pays enough tax), but the Healthcare system isn't great, I can't see where they're spending all our money, if feels like they're just using it fund tax breaks for American mulinationals

Seth Brundle

rcunning03 wrote:

I can't see where they're spending all our money, if feels like they're just using it fund tax breaks for American mulinationals

typical boards response! if taxes like this weren't applied then how would the country manage to pay for important things like storage of the e-voting machines?

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

Indeed, in the long term, the State will earn money from the tolling of a road from VAT and commission on the tolls so that way, it gives the taxpayer "Value for Money

Yeah, it'll go towards reopening a railway or something.

Ham'nd'egger

Navan Junction wrote:

Yeah, it'll go towards reopening a railway or something.

Good idea

Zoney

Tolls on roads are an inefficient and backward method for anyone to recoup the costs of road building, or even just make money.

The taxation/excise system is far more efficient, and that is saying something.

The physical infrastructure of tolling even adds to the road construction costs, nevermind the need for maintanance, traffic management, employees, etc.

Even if you support fleecing motorists, you shouldn't be supporting tolls. All tolls do is screw up traffic and require the country to pay more for the road than they would otherwise have to. The only beneficiaries are the toll operators.

rcunning03

Is the N3 going to have any work done on it to make it safer/easier to drive on ?

Will the M3 be better than the new part of the N2, which I think is one of the best roads in the country ? The old N2 was I felt incredible dangerous, regardless of what statistics say I never felt safe driving on it.

It is nice to know that if I ever happen to need to use the M3 it'll be empty because of the tolls, I'd be very annoyed if I had to use that road every day to get to work, But if the N3 is a safe road at least the motorway will take some of the traffic off the route (assuming they keep the old N3)

Seth Brundle

Dual carriageways & motorways by design are safer. There is a much lower chance of head on collision

rcunning03

Definately safer, even the government admit that now. Nothing worse than driving down a single lane cariage way at night, can't see the road markings and a truck travelling at least 100kmh on the opposite side of the road

Navan Junction

rcunning03 wrote:

Will the M3 be better than the new part of the N2,

The same I think

rcunning03 wrote:

The old N2 was I felt incredible dangerous

Because it was so straight there was lots of over-taking opportunities.

70mph would seem to have been the average of many cars on it.

The N3 on the other hand is not as straight and harder to over take on. The section between Navan and Dalgan being one, and between Ross Cross and Dunshaughlin the other and the last one between Rathbeggan and the Blackbull.

Speed on the n3 are frequently only about the 50mph mark..

I think the N3 will be left to rot like th old N1

Navan Junction

I correct myself - the N2 north of Ashbourne was and is very straight - not as good sth of Ashbourne.

Incidently, the N2 was apparently aligned to facilitate a visit to Slane by Victoria, formerly queen of England.

Which is why it was so straight - can't remember where I picked that up

Zoney

Navan Junction wrote:

I think the N3 will be left to rot like th old N1

The old N roads are reclassified as R roads, which though it's fun to be cynical, means they aren't quite left to rot. R roads in general have been attracting more maintanance year by year for the past decade. Some councils are better at maintaining R roads than others. Some of the ones in county Carlow are top class. The ones leading out from Limerick are reasonably well surfaced and signposted.

Many R roads now have a decent surface and well-defined verge (i.e. edge of road isn't falling into the ditch and has yellow dashed lines), as well as proper signage, even ADS in some cases.

However, I guarantee you that once the Nenagh Limerick dual carriageway is opened, the old N7 (which will be another part of the R445) will be the highest quality R road in the whole country - it's been repaved the whole way between Limerick and Nenagh (the last section was still being worked on before Christmas), has full hard shoulders for much of the route (and has reduced ones rather than none at narrower parts), has barriers on the edge of the road, even climbing lanes in places! The main reason it's dangerous still is the volume of traffic using it.

Navan Junction

The old N1 wouldn't be as well maintained as that.

The N3 isn't particularly well looked after, though a mile or so of it was resurfaced north of Dunshaughlin before Christmas.

It isn't being cynical for the sake of it - MCC don't have the funds do anything much and the roads around Navan are very messy in places too.

TBH, if the N3 as a primary route isn't particularly well maintained now, I can't see that changing for the better when the M3 is built.

The point about the N1 is that you can use it free as far as Sth Drogheda. The M3 will be tolled at it's very start at the Blackbull so the (soon to be) old N3 will probably still see alot of use

Zoney

Navan Junction wrote:

It isn't being cynical for the sake of it - MCC don't have the funds do anything much and the roads around Navan are very messy in places too.

Meath County Council are receiving €55,892,600 this year for upgrades, this compares very favorably with say, Tipperary NR (where most of Limerick-Nenagh falls) which is getting €4,740,000.

Of course, perhaps all that means is that you will finally be starting to see serious improvement in Meath this year.

Both council areas are getting about the same for maintanance, about one and a half million euro.

Limerick County Council are getting a whopping huge glob of money for upgrades this year; over €100 million.

Victor

rcunning03 wrote:

Will the M3 be better than the new part of the N2, which I think is one of the best roads in the country ?

N2 = 3 lane, N3 = 2 lane most likely.

Navan Junction wrote:

Incidently, the N2 was apparently aligned to facilitate a visit to Slane by Victoria, formerly queen of England. Which is why it was so straight - can't remember where I picked that up

I think you might have crossed wires there. AFAIK, the N2 was an old toll road, well before Victoria's time.

Zoney wrote:

Tipperary NR (where most of Limerick-Nenagh falls) which is getting €4,740,000. ... Limerick County Council are getting a whopping huge glob of money for upgrades this year; over €100 million.

Is LCC managing the Limerick-Nenagh contract?

Navan Junction

Victor wrote:

N2 = 3 lane

Only as far as the first junction (2.5k?)

Victor wrote:

AFAIK, the N2 was an old toll road, well before Victoria's time.

I'll check - have a book on the history of turnpikes - it may have been realligned. I'll check it in the interests of trivia..

steve-o

Hamndegger wrote:

it gives the taxpayer "Value for Money"

You don't actually believe that line, do you? Yes, it costs the NRA less up front, but some estimates put the cost to drivers of the M3 at over €1 billion after all the tolls have been paid. It would make more sense if the developer was paid a fixed amount over the life of the PPP contract (30 years?) and all tolls went to the NRA.

westtip

Been off these boards for a while but good to see the same old arguments are still being bashed out - just read this thread and surprised no one has come up with the same old (and very valid) point that our planners at a national level couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag. I see in todays Sunday Times (PAGE 6 NEWS SECTION) they are talking about the outer orbital road from drogheda - Navan - Trim - Kilcock (N4 intersection) then to Naas (link with M7), great stuff - then take a close look at the map - it will mean 4 dual carriageways running north south through Meath within twenty miles of each other - the issue about the M3 has less to do with Tara (although this is an international disgrace), but more to do with why they ( the brilliant public sector bench marked planners) didn't plan one motorway on a north south axis through meath (ie the N2) with spur roads to Navan and Drogheda. If the N2 is upgraded to decent standard dual carriageway - it won't take long for consumers (ie motorists) who should use the M1 or M3 pay per view motorways to swing across to the N2 and drive south to the M50 on the free to view N2. Of course when they get to the M50 it will be the same as ever -

S0 why not take the train ...oh sorry I forgot .... there isn't one.

Victor

westtip wrote:

the issue about the M3 has less to do with Tara (although this is an international disgrace), but more to do with why they ( the brilliant public sector bench marked planners) didn't plan one motorway on a north south axis through meath (ie the N2) with spur roads to Navan and Drogheda.

Quite simply because the N1/N2/N3 is controlled by different councils. Fingal built the M1 as far east as possible to suit commuters (voters) in the coastal towns.

westtip

Victor wrote:

Quite simply because the N1/N2/N3 is controlled by different councils. Fingal built the M1 as far east as possible to suit commuters (voters) in the coastal towns.

Ah well Victor there you go you summed it up why it has been so badly planned by mentioning the c word - councils - the quality of which leaves a great deal to be desired.

Zoney

Victor wrote:

Quite simply because the N1/N2/N3 is controlled by different councils. Fingal built the M1 as far east as possible to suit commuters (voters) in the coastal towns.

National roads are the responsibility of the NRA, not the local councils.

Victor

Zoney wrote:

National roads are the responsibility of the NRA, not the local councils.

Its not quite that simple. The NRA is mainly a funding and research & standards agency. It doesn't select routes and doesn't design roads.

Zoney

The Regional Design Offices aren't all county-specific either.

cournioni

Has anyone noticed that the car only toll booth on the m3 promps you to pay 2.20 instead of 1.40.If you throw in the incorrect amount will they refund the difference to you, or?

L1011

If its coming up at 2.20, your vehicle is being identified automatically commercial. 1.40 is for passenger cars only; anything on goods tax is 2.20

If this is incorrect you need to contact the toll operator so they can figure out what's going wrong.

cournioni

L1011 wrote: »

If its coming up at 2.20, your vehicle is being identified automatically commercial. 1.40 is for passenger cars only; anything on goods tax is 2.20

If this is incorrect you need to contact the toll operator so they can figure out what's going wrong.

We used the car only bay with height restriction, so it should not be classed as commercial, but they are still charging for commercial. If this was one of the other bays, then that explanation would be feasible. I have heard of this happening to other vehicles using the M3 tolls and it seems to be exclusive to the M3.

BowWow

cournioni wrote: »

We used the car only bay with height restriction, so it should not be classed as commercial, but they are still charging for commercial. If this was one of the other bays, then that explanation would be feasible. I have heard of this happening to other vehicles using the M3 tolls and it seems to be exclusive to the M3.

1. What make/model "car" is it?

2. Does it have back seats?

L1011

cournioni wrote: »

We used the car only bay with height restriction, so it should not be classed as commercial, but they are still charging for commercial. If this was one of the other bays, then that explanation would be feasible. I have heard of this happening to other vehicles using the M3 tolls and it seems to be exclusive to the M3.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of commercial vehicles that fit in the car lane. The explanation is not only feasible, it is precisely what is happening

If your vehicle is on goods tax you are being charged the correct amount; if not you need to contact Eurolink to ask them why

Isambard

13 year old thread reborn.

Riesen_Meal

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Get the bus! There is an excellent service from Navan to Dublin!
No car, no tolls, no parking fees!

Post is from 13 years ago mate...

TheQuietFella

Fieldog wrote: »

Post is from 13 years ago mate...

Never looked at the date!

cournioni

L1011 wrote: »

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of commercial vehicles that fit in the car lane. The explanation is not only feasible, it is precisely what is happening

If your vehicle is on goods tax you are being charged the correct amount; if not you need to contact Eurolink to ask them why

its a car with back seats should be classed as a car. seen a quy in a small vw classed at 2.20 directly in front of me. when the barrier did not open he threw in the overcharge amount of 80c. he was scammed. every vehicle that goes in is classed at 2.20 and if they are gullible enough they are scammed.