Why is a penthouse worth more?

MorningStar

Hi,

I noticed a few penthouse appartments for sale recently and noticed they were asking for more. I get people are happy with appartments and I don't want to get into houses versus appartments again but a few mentions have to be made as the penthouses are going fo
As far as I can gather here are the benifits and negatives.

1) They tend to be bigger than the other appartments in the block
2) Nicer and bigger balconies
3) Great views
4) Less neighbours than regular appartments

Negatives
1) No room to expand
2) Leasehold
3) Maintainence fees (their rising nature)
4) No garden

Is there something I am missing?

ionapaul

You forgot one in your list of benefits:

5) Status / Prestige - People are willing to pay more for the perceived 'best' in any group of items

MorningStar

ionapaul wrote:

You forgot one in your list of benefits:

5) Status / Prestige - People are willing to pay more for the perceived 'best' in any group of items

I was sticking with actual benifits as opposed to perception
It's a fair point but you think people would look at it a bit more objectively. Some of such "prestigious" appartments aren't in areas with good name. e.g.

http://www4.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=224547&p=23&rt=search&searchlist=

Not a bad area but it is 30k-40k more expensive than 3 beds in the same area without stamp duty being considered.

Gilgamesh

have to agree with the pros you put up there, and as I moved into a penthouse four months ago, have to admit, is the best place I have lived in Ireland sofar.
the views a close to amazing, can overlook entire Dublin, see the wicklow mountains to the south, to the west I can see howth and the sea, but the sea only on a clear day.
for some mysteriouos reason, we always have great weather hwne we have a party.
can easily get 60 People onto the balcony, which by the way goes all around the place.
no neighbours sharing your walls, so you can be loud if required .
the prestige is a plus, but not a must.
the qualtiy standard of the furniture is normally higher when you get it.
(was in our case)

HUGE and bright Living room.

could go on for days.

lets just say, it is the first place in my 9 moves in Ireland, where I am really feeling like I am home.


On a side note, I am not a fan of Garden, too much maintanance, is nice maybe if yu have kids but otherwise, we have a park just 100 meters down the road which is access only to the estate.

garred

Moved into a "penthouse" last year. Personally I'd just call it a top floor apartment. Reason I went for this:

1. Less neighbours/noise.
2. Bigger balcony
3. Better views
4. Probably the most important, we actually have an attic. Anyone in an apartment will testify to the advantage of that extra storage space.

MorningStar

Gigamesh and Garred did you guys buy or are you renting?
I get the investment part where it would be easy to rent but not all of them are bought by investors. I guess the investors could just be pushing up the price and that is the bit I wasn't considering.

Garred a house has an attic too and generally a lot better storage overall.

soma

MorningStar wrote:

4) No garden

Actually my mate's penthouse has a 600 sq ft rooftop garden. Nice :cool:

Personally - Ive a major problem with maintenance fees - I cant quite be comfortable with the idea of someone else charging me a variable yearly fee to live in property that I've purchased.

I'm starting to hear really scary maintenance figures like 2400/yr for apartments. Holy crap, if u were sharing a 2 bed apt with a friend or partner, your 2400 would get you 4 months rent in Dublin 4!! :eek:

garred

MorningStar wrote:

Gigamesh and Garred did you guys buy or are you renting?
I get the investment part where it would be easy to rent but not all of them are bought by investors. I guess the investors could just be pushing up the price and that is the bit I wasn't considering.

Garred a house has an attic too and generally a lot better storage overall.

Bought to live in. Yeah a house has an attic but I thought you were comparing apartments to penthouses. I probably did'nt read it right.

garred

soma wrote:

Actually my mate's penthouse has a 600 sq ft rooftop garden. Nice :cool:

Personally - Ive a major problem with maintenance fees - I cant quite be comfortable with the idea of someone else charging me a variable yearly fee to live in property that I've purchased.

I'm starting to hear really scary maintenance figures like 2400/yr for apartments. Holy crap, if u were sharing a 2 bed apt with a friend or partner, your 2400 would get you 4 months rent in Dublin 4!! :eek:

I know Soma but they are not all that bad. I'm charged 1300 for a two bed. That covers block insurance, refuse collection, upkeep, secure parking, etc. If you apply just the refuse collection and block insurance to a house there would'nt be a lot of change. Fair enough its a variable rate but its up to the owners to put in their spoke as they are legally entitled to. I know our maintenance company upped everything after one year, residents were'nt happy so we got rid of them.
However I do agree that their is a line when it can go too far (the fees that is) and its up to the individual where that line is.

Gilgamesh

MorningStar wrote:

Gigamesh and Garred did you guys buy or are you renting?
I get the investment part where it would be easy to rent but not all of them are bought by investors. I guess the investors could just be pushing up the price and that is the bit I wasn't considering.

Garred a house has an attic too and generally a lot better storage overall.

bought it,

but am sub letting to a works collegue too.
only pay 1200 Euro per annum managment fee and includes just about everything, really can't complain

lomb

the place my father owns was built 5-6 years ago in town. it has been through 4 or 5 different management companies, the last MTS resigning amid allegations of fraud. i believe some residents have hired a forensic accountant and found they had no financial records other than scraps.
the latest management company reakons its going to cost 210000 to 'restore' the place and remember its only 6 years old. (there are approximately 50 apartments so the once off bill looks like 4 grand, in addition to the 1500 a year we pay anyway. thing is every year for the last 3 or 4 there has been a once off subscription. they are quoting 47 grand to paint the hallways alone.
its all cowboy stuff, they are totally unregulated, and in my opinion there are a lot of kickbacks taking place.
stear clear of leaseholds, thats my advice

MorningStar

soma wrote:

Actually my mate's penthouse has a 600 sq ft rooftop garden. Nice :cool: etc...

I was talking in general some houses don't either but that does sound nice.

garred wrote:

Bought to live in. Yeah a house has an attic but I thought you were comparing apartments to penthouses. I probably did'nt read it right.

I did mention I didn't want to get into the whole house appartment thing but it still comes into play when considering price. There seems to be a disportionate price on penthouses in the market.

Gilgamesh wrote:

but am sub letting to a works collegue too.
only pay 1200 Euro per annum managment fee and includes just about everything, really can't complain

It sounds like you have a decent fee both of you but I have heard and know of extortionate prices. Some plsce get built with minimum security and consideration so they can cost a lot.

Are the penthouses in Dublin?

Gilgamesh

royal canal park, that new estate on the River Road/Royal canal.
security is quite good too, as they are still building around it, it is also quite ab bit tighter than required imho

iguana

Gilgamesh wrote:

no neighbours sharing your walls, so you can be loud if required .

You still have people under you in a penthouse. Ime neighbour noise is far worse from the apartment above than the apartment nextdoor. I'd imagine in a penthouse you have to be much more careful about making noise than you do in a terrace or a semi-d and definetly more so than in a detached house.

I can't imagine paying a fortune on either a house or an apartment that was leasehold. You make the biggest purchase of your life but someone else still owns it. It seems a bit screwy to me. I don't know if you can put a price on the feeling of owning the ground beneath your feet.

lomb

iguana wrote:

I don't know if you can put a price on the feeling of owning the ground beneath your feet.

agreed

garred

iguana wrote:

You still have people under you in a penthouse. Ime neighbour noise is far worse from the apartment above than the apartment nextdoor. I'd imagine in a penthouse you have to be much more careful about making noise than you do in a terrace or a semi-d and definetly more so than in a detached house.

Depends what your definition is of noise. If someone is blaring a tv/music or partying you'd still hear it in a terraced house, in fact you would probably still hear it in a semi d.
Leasehold....well if you get a mortgage from a bank for any building technically they still own it until its paid for. Point taken though.
Personally I've lived in my first apartment for the last 2 years and after the first year was'nt happy with it as I have always lived in houses. However now its not bad at all.

PS: Morningstar I know you did'nt want this turning into a house v apartment thread but thats boards for ya

madramor

Gilgamesh wrote:

royal canal park, that new estate on the River Road/Royal canal.
security is quite good too, as they are still building around it, it is also quite ab bit tighter than required imho

royal canal park is on the Rathoath road

the reason security is so tight is because it is in between
finglas and cabra 2 areas with very large criminal organisations

as it is a new development which is not completed the developer
is still supplementing the management fees, expect it double in
the next 3 years.

A penthouse is only worth the money if it is in the city center

garred

madramor wrote:

A penthouse is only worth the money if it is in the city center

Call me stupid, but why?

madramor

garred wrote:

Call me stupid, but why?

space is limited in the city center so property with a large floor
area will alway command a premium price.

you have all the benefits of the CC but with a large living area
and a bit of privacy\peace which is rare.

CC property is always a better buy than suburbs, as its easier
to rent and no commuting.

Borzoi

madramor wrote:

A penthouse is only worth the money if it is in the city center

Absolute bull my friend.

As has been pointed out in any apartment block, a penthouse will command a higher price, because it is more private.

In addition many penthouses have extra features like being larger, high ceilings, more storage (attic spaces), roof gardens/terraces.

I'm fortunate in that mine has all these features.


Then there is the limited supply factor, in my area D15, there are a zillion 3 bed semi detached houses, quite a large amount of apartments, and a small number of penthouses - and as any economist will tell you - if there is costant demand and a limited supply - prices will rise

Gilgamesh

agree with Borz and yes, madramor, that's total bull.
Royal canal Park also touches Ratoath Road, but the River Road goes entirely around the north side of the estate, the Royal canal covering the south side.

We have a bus link into town which takes 20 minutes to get to the CC and also runs every 20 minutes until 11:30 at night.

haven't found a better place to live sofar, but hey madramor, as you seem so fit in what is 'In' these days, show me a penthouse that competes with mine and I will pull my hat to you.

Also, the noise level to the downstairs is pratically non existent.
I asked all my neighbours below me on to occasions after two huge parties and they didn't hear a thing.

the floor underneath the place is roughly 1 meter thick, so it would take a lot to penetrate that I guess

madramor

Borzoi wrote:

As has been pointed out in any apartment block, a penthouse will command a higher price, because it is more private.

appartments complexes in the suburbs are like ghost towns so privacy
is not that much of an issue

it is much more important is a busy city environment

Borzoi wrote:

In addition many penthouses have extra features like being larger, high ceilings, more storage (attic spaces), roof gardens/terraces.

yet again space is at a premium in the city thats why penthouses
in the city are worth the money

A penthouse in the suburbs still has to deal with all the congestion
problems which will only increase and lead to price corrections.

There is no comparing the wow factor of a penthouse in the city
with one in the suburbs.

You could buy a massive house in cavan for 500k and the same house
in d4 will cost you minimum 5million.
location is one of the most important factors in buying a property

Borzoi wrote:

Then there is the limited supply factor, in my area D15, there are a zillion 3 bed semi detached houses, quite a large amount of apartments, and a small number of penthouses - and as any economist will tell you - if there is costant demand and a limited supply - prices will rise

is there constant demand ?

limited supply:
Those appartments in Canal Park are amazingly in D15.
The racecourse development 2500 appartments how many penthouses.
A new 15 story tower to be built in the town center.
Theres still plenty of land in D15 to develope.

Gilgamesh wrote:

that's total bull.

http://www.royalcanalpark.com/site/rcp_main.php
there are 3 other estates on the river road, all on the 1 big
site but Canal Park don't border the river road
what else is total bull?

AndyWarhol

Yeah, what's the story with all this apartment in the suburbs lark? I figure if you're going to commute, you might as well live in a decent house that you can call your own.

Apartments are great, but there's no way I'd buy one in places like Finglas/Raheny/Sandyford etc.

garred

madramor wrote:

appartments complexes in the suburbs are like ghost towns so privacy
is not that much of an issue

it is much more important is a busy city environment

yet again space is at a premium in the city thats why penthouses
in the city are worth the money

A penthouse in the suburbs still has to deal with all the congestion
problems which will only increase and lead to price corrections.

There is no comparing the wow factor of a penthouse in the city
with one in the suburbs.

You could buy a massive house in cavan for 500k and the same house
in d4 will cost you minimum 5million.
location is one of the most important factors in buying a property

is there constant demand ?

limited supply:
Those appartments in Canal Park are amazingly in D15.
The racecourse development 2500 appartments how many penthouses.
A new 15 story tower to be built in the town center.
Theres still plenty of land in D15 to develope.


http://www.royalcanalpark.com/site/rcp_main.php
there are 3 other estates on the river road, all on the 1 big
site but Canal Park don't border the river road
what else is total bull?

You are probably looking at it at an investment point of view. Sure any apartment would be better in the city centre. But, and the big but is that not everyone wants to live in city centre. Whether it be proximity to family, friends, work, etc there is a large and growing community outside of Dublin. Personally I would never want to live in the city centre because of the reasons above and price, crime, etc. However from an investment point of view I might consider it but you would also have to be prepared to pay for that location.

Borzoi

madramor wrote:

You could buy a massive house in cavan for 500k and the same house
in d4 will cost you minimum 5million.
location is one of the most important factors in buying a property
?

The OP asked why penthouses are worth more - I've tried to answer that - your only contribution has been to point out that city centre porperty is worth more than anywhere else. I wouldn't disagree but that's not the subject at hand.

madramor

Borzoi wrote:

The OP asked why penthouses are worth more - I've tried to answer that - your only contribution has been to point out that city centre porperty is worth more than anywhere else. I wouldn't disagree but that's not the subject at hand.

city center location + benefits of a penthouse
is the reason why CC penthouses are worth the money

you picked out a small section of my post to try and
say i was making a single point.

I gave a few reason why CC PH are worth the money the
same reason don't really apply to PH in the suburbs

i've always said worth the money, not the price people pay
for them.

CC PH for 750k is worth the money
Suburb PH for 300\500k is not worth the money

garred

madramor wrote:

CC PH for 750k is worth the money
Suburb PH for 300\500k is not worth the money

In what context. Investment or living. I have to 100% disagree with you there. If thats the case why stop at penthouses, why not apartments, houses, etc. The city centre is not the only place in Dublin, as I have said people have jobs, family, friends outside of city centre.

madramor

garred wrote:

If thats the case why stop at penthouses, why not apartments, houses, etc.

its not the same for other appartments
appartments in suburbs vs CC are 10-20% difference
penthouses in suburbs vs CC are 50-100% difference

Benfits of penthouses space,privacy

these benefits are amplified if in the city center that
why CC PH are worth the money

i have nothing against PH in the suburbs its just that there
not worth the money, because you can get better properties
at the same better price in the suburbs.
you cannot get a better peoperty in the CC for PH money.

This thread is about worth the money

Gilgamesh

this thread isn't about the worth of a penthouse in the CC versus one in the subs.

Funny enough, I personally wouldn't know where to define the boarder between CC and suburbs in Dublin anyway tbh.

I bought this place for a reason.
first of all, it is by far one of the nicest places I have found to live in Ireland to date.
It is still a development area, so the value of the apartment arounf here are going to increase exponentially.
Finglas and areas around it are not an issue, first of all, I am in the fifth floor, and there is security on the premises, plus there is no such thing as a 'safe area' in a big city. It's just a matter of time for it to deteriorate.

I would never get a Penthouse in the D2 or D1 areas, and believe me I have looked at them, they are overpriced for what they are, hard to maintain, and that plus what you talk of that the location is important, I personally think, is nonsense.
I have a 15 minute drive into the city center where I live, with a bus and train connection literally at my front door.
the 250.000 Euro (by your calculation) that I saved will get me the distance into town and back, more than 25.000 times, (cab costs going by experience of a tenner to 12 Euros). so that is not an issue either.

living too far in the city get you stuck in the traffic fiasco as well. which doesn' exactly improve the meaning of a good location to me anyway.

and by the way, Royal canal Park DOES touch the river road on the north side, if you don't beleieve it then go and have a walk around here.

now then, I would suggest getting this thread back on topic and not discussing who's opinion is the right one that everybody must follow.

lomb

they are worth more because people will pay more still leasehold though

MorningStar

Gilgamesh wrote:

this thread isn't about the worth of a penthouse in the CC versus one in the subs.

Funny enough, I personally wouldn't know where to define the boarder between CC and suburbs in Dublin anyway tbh.

The canals are seen as the borders of the city centre.

Gilgamesh wrote:

Finglas and areas around it are not an issue, first of all, I am in the fifth floor, and there is security on the premises, plus there is no such thing as a 'safe area' in a big city. It's just a matter of time for it to deteriorate.

I just don't agree with that. No matter what floor you live on if your block is close or in a bad area risk increases dramatically and price goes down on way or the other whether you believe it or not becasue others will. There certainly are safe areas in the cities and the suburbs bring you to a different level.

The thread is about penthouse prices. The main questions I was asking was why a smaller property in the Dublin suburbs was sell for more. A 2 bed penthouse is asking for more money than a 3 bed family house in the same area. The only thing I could really see was the view but abvioulsy there is prestidge involved too. As an investment it seems to make sense too for renting. Personally as a place to live I would only pick a good quality penthouse or house in a good area and not get hung up on what the property could be descibed as. The penthouse I posted earlier is not worth the money based on that.

garred

MorningStar wrote:

The thread is about penthouse prices. The main questions I was asking was why a smaller property in the Dublin suburbs was sell for more. A 2 bed penthouse is asking for more money than a 3 bed family house in the same area.

I totally read your original post wrong thought you were asking about price difference with penthouse v apartment. I would buy the home using your first post eventhough I have a penthouse, as there was not that sort of difference where I purchased.

Gilgamesh

think the choice of a penthouse to a house is a matter of taste imo.
I bought a penthouse for three main reasons.
first of all, I don't have kids or a family here wh olive with me, hence not a real need for a garden, (also going for the fact the plants die when I look after them, and no time to take care of a garden)
second, I like the view, the space (which of course you would have in house), the peace and quiet if wanted, and the feeling you can isolate yourself from all as you don't have people walking past your your windows all the time, and I REALLY like my privacy.
third, I like seeing development go ahead, Royal canal Park has at least another 4 years minimum to go until it is finished. I don't pick up the Building noise from the Penthouse, but I can watch the whole project continue to evolve.
Watchign the Ballymun Towers been exploded is also a fun event, and also seeing the changes taking place around the area is fun.

I have two more apartments in Germany which are rented out to people and I am not interested on buying a place here to make a profit, but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be happy if it does though

MorningStar

garred wrote:

I totally read your original post wrong thought you were asking about price difference with penthouse v apartment. I would buy the home using your first post eventhough I have a penthouse, as there was not that sort of difference where I purchased.

It was really Penthouse vs any other property as I wanted to see the amazing value of them. It does seems that some appartment blocks are selling very well in suburbs and penthouse prices are asking for more on top. I don't get it on a purcahse for living but as an investor I could get it now.

garred

MorningStar wrote:

It was really Penthouse vs any other property as I wanted to see the amazing value of them. It does seems that some appartment blocks are selling very well in suburbs and penthouse prices are asking for more on top. I don't get it on a purcahse for living but as an investor I could get it now.

On a side issue and with reference to that point, do you think it would be easier to rent out a 2 bed apartment/penthouse over a 2 bed house?

MorningStar

garred wrote:

On a side issue and with reference to that point, do you think it would be easier to rent out a 2 bed apartment/penthouse over a 2 bed house?

Generally I would say a house is easier to rent in normal circumstances. There are not many areas where they would compete directly. It will be location first, every time. Most houses that would be rented are going to be more than 2 bed and not city centred.