Crash and Insurance

Big Nelly

Ok, bloke I know is after buying a car about six months ago and is on his first provisional.....was going down the road the other day and some bird pulled out in front of him and they crashed....the woman was ok and he was as well....she took full responsibility and said she never seen him....gave him insurance details and so on....her insurance company rang him and said to drop to get damage fixed.....was damage to front wing, light, bumper and so on.......garage said it would cost about 3,200 to fix and said insurance company would pay out no problem...garage must be something to do with them because they didnt send out anyone to check over car or anything(cant remember there name now).....anyway her insurance company said car was worth 5 grand....he paid over 6 less than six months ago.....

So get a call today from garage saying that it is now a write off and they will give him aroun 4,500-5000 for the car.....

First of all this seems like a joke that a company can do this? first write off car for less than it is worth and second the only reason they have let it go as a write off is because it is an import and the part will prob be hard to get.....I have never heard of a car been a write off with body damage???? have you???

Second which is more important if he is going to fight this.....what is the stance of the insurance company since he is on his first provisional without a full license driver with him? will his insurance still stand? or can her insurance worm out of it some way because he hadnt a full license? I havent a clue on this because I have full license and when I got first provisional I was just allowed to drive around....mind you I had years of practise on farm vehicles beforehand(thats a hint towards all the cr*p posts about shouldnt be on the road)

Has anyone got any details on this so I can pass it on? thanks

whippet

insurance companies tend to value things differently to the rest of us.

Just because your mate paid 6K for the car, does not mean it is worth 6K.

The insurance company has to put you back in the position that you were in before the accident, if the car you had would have only fetched 4.5K-5K on the open market that is all they have to pay out.

It is worth arguing with the insurance company over the value, get as much information as you can from Buy and Sell, Autocar, Carzone.ie, dealer price lists as to what similar cars are being sold for now.

Big Nelly

whippet wrote:

insurance companies tend to value things differently to the rest of us.

Just because your mate paid 6K for the car, does not mean it is worth 6K.

The insurance company has to put you back in the position that you were in before the accident, if the car you had would have only fetched 4.5K-5K on the open market that is all they have to pay out.

It is worth arguing with the insurance company over the value, get as much information as you can from Buy and Sell, Autocar, Carzone.ie, dealer price lists as to what similar cars are being sold for now.

Still over 6k because it is an automatic!! bring the value up!! think they are pricing on a manual!!

ken90

QUOTE
what is the stance of the insurance company since he is on his first provisional without a full license driver with him? will his insurance still stand? or can her insurance worm out of it some way because he hadnt a full license? UNQUOTE
Get somebody to phone his Insurance co. and ask without giving name.

QUOTE
So get a call today from garage saying that it is now a write off and they will give him aroun 4,500-5000 for the car.....

First of all this seems like a joke that a company can do this? first write off car for less than it is worth and second the only reason they have let it go as a write off is because it is an import and the part will prob be hard to get.....I have never heard of a car been a write off with body damage???? have you???
UNQUOTE

Often unfortunately. If he paid 6000, its probably only worth about 5000 now.

If his status is questionable, he would really be better off to settle, but fight hard for the higest figure.

Should he phone her Insurance co. directly?
Cant understand why he is talking to the garage.

Big Nelly

Well prob is if they dont insure him if on first provisional then doesnt really want to tell them if they have overlooked....nobody has asked for license....dont want to go looking for trouble.....

Not really anything to do with his insurance company because it is been paided by hers so his insurance shouldnt be affected....also he is with Quinn who would prob back out cause they are a joke......she is with Sun Alliance if that is any help!!

My point is I bought a new car 6 months ago....paid 10k so let say some dope write it off.....I travel on N3 alot and there is so many dopes on that road.....do they have the option to pay me only 8-9K for it....evn thou I paid out 10k so I end up losing over 1K on a car because they insured a gobs**t who cant drive!!! if so thats a joke?? I have my car insured on my policy for 10K so my insurance would pay out 10K so I cant see how some other company can pay less!!

blahblah06

Your best bet is go into a garage and ask them the cost price of your mans car they have books in there os the value with mileage etc.

Big Nelly

Any ideas

1999 1.3 Mitsubishi Mirage (Automatic) ... 44000 KM

miju

at the end of the day what your friend is doing is committing fraud by even claiming, if the other insurance company got a sniff of you being a 1st provisional without a fully licensed driver,

so your mate was fully in the wrong in the first place so he should take his €5,000 and next time have a fully licensed driver with him, if he pursures the insurance company could press him further for a license, they are obviously trying to settle quickly so just settle

Big Nelly

_raptor_ wrote:

at the end of the day what your friend is doing is committing fraud by even claiming, if the other insurance company got a sniff of you being a 1st provisional without a fully licensed driver,

so your mate was fully in the wrong in the first place so he should take his €5,000 and next time have a fully licensed driver with him, if he pursures the insurance company could press him further for a license, they are obviously trying to settle quickly so just settle

Thats what I was thinking but is it actually fraud....he couldnt find out anywhere on his policy to say he needed a full license driver for his insurance to cover him.....cant check mine because they know me for 5-6 years and my full history(clean license and no crashs )............if they ask for license and he gives license can they just turn around and say sorry because you are a first provisional driver you hadnt a licensed driver with you so we dont need to give you anything....also in this case he would have to then pay for repairs to her car because it would then be seen as he was driving without insurance....its very unclear to be honest

alias no.9

Big Nelly wrote:

Any ideas

1999 1.3 Mitsubishi Mirage (Automatic) ... 44000 KM

4.5k to 5k sounds about right to be honest. If you're friend wants to find out where he lost his money tell him to start where ever he bought it. Small automatic japanese imports do not command a premium over their manual equivalents, in fact there is such a limited market for them, they are usually worth less. If we were talking about a mercedes here, the automatic would certainly be worth more but not a colt. I know it will feel like a kick in the teeth to your friend but there's not a whole lot he/she can do but chalk it down to experience.

blahblah06

Nelly give me 5 mins and ill make a call

blahblah06

Bad news. 4000 euro max..

Big Nelly

blahblah06 wrote:

Nelly give me 5 mins and ill make a call

Cheers man!! thanks all for help!! never crashed or anything so its all new to me!!! touch wood I dont crash now!!

Guy:Incognito

The vrt site gives the OMSP at less than €1000

declanoneill

_raptor_ wrote:

at the end of the day what your friend is doing is committing fraud by even claiming, if the other insurance company got a sniff of you being a 1st provisional without a fully licensed driver,

As far as I know this doesn't make a difference. He shouldn't have been driving because he didn't have a FLD beside him, but that's besides the point. Would an insurance company refuse to pay out if their client was breaking the speed limit? It's certainly not fraud.

eth0_

Big Nelly wrote:

Thats what I was thinking but is it actually fraud....he couldnt find out anywhere on his policy to say he needed a full license driver for his insurance to cover him

Yeah but where does it say on your policy that you have to be sober behind the wheel?

Drink driving and driving unsupervised on your first provisional is illegal, so you should always be wary that your insurer won't cover you, insurance companies being pr*cks and all!

miju

he's not disclosing full details (that he was breaking the law by not having a FLD with him) that counts as fraud as you can bet your bottom dollar that that info would change the outcome of the claim drastically

TheBigLebowski

Has your mate brought the car to an independent garage himself to find out how much they would charge to get it fixed. The garages attached to insurance companies are rip off merchants. Someone I know was in the same situation very recently. In a car crash. Wasn't their fault. Car worth 3000. Insurance company said it would cost about 3000 to fix so wrote it off. She kept the car. She took the 3000 and went to another place and got it fixed for 1000 and pocketed 2000.

declanoneill

_raptor_ wrote:

he's not disclosing full details (that he was breaking the law by not having a FLD with him) that counts as fraud as you can bet your bottom dollar that that info would change the outcome of the claim drastically

Whether or not the person in question has a full license or not makes no difference to who was in the wrong, even in court. My dad took a case against a guy who was driving on his first provisional (both beleived themselves to be in the right, regardless of license issues). My dad's barister specifically mentioned that the guy was driving on a provisional and the judge still found against my father.

Big Nelly

TheBigLebowski wrote:

Has your mate brought the car to an independent garage himself to find out how much they would charge to get it fixed. The garages attached to insurance companies are rip off merchants. Someone I know was in the same situation very recently. In a car crash. Wasn't their fault. Car worth 3500. Insurance company said it would cost about 3000 to fix so wrote it off. She kept the car. She took the 3000 and went to another place and got it fixed for 1000 and pocketed 2000.

LOL must try that.....he hadnt a clue and because it was outside the Dublin area just brought the car to the garage insurance compnay told him....has been there since.....must mention it to him.....he has contacted his insurance compnay(Quinn) and this is what they said.....

They(sun) have it on file that she accepted liability and have sent her a accident report to fill out details of crash and so on.....they will then wait on an assesors report.....

According to Quinn way payment works is current market value - any scrap value (they can provide details if necessary) = net payment (and if he keeps the car or can get it scrapped for whatever that value is)

I told him if that is the way....take the car and get it fixed yourself in some garage or just sell on with damage and buy a new one......you will get nothing from scrappage deal from insurance company and wats the bets they have it back on road in 2-3 weeks which was what the garage said in first place....2 weeks at most and back on road!! remember only body damage!!

whippet

Big Nelly wrote:

I have my car insured on my policy for 10K so my insurance would pay out 10K so I cant see how some other company can pay less!!

that is not the way insurance works, you can't insure a 10K car for 15K, have it stolen and claim 15K from the insc. company, vice versa you can't buy a 10K car insure it for 5K, have a crash doing 5K's worth of damage and expect 5K comp, it will be apportioned backwards and you will get 2.5K compo (there is a latin phrase for this)

The insurance company only has to reinstate you to the position you were in before the accident.

TheBigLebowski

My mate bought the parts she needed in a breakers yard (just body parts aswell) for a couple of hundred euro and brought them and the car to a local mechanic and then just had to pay for labour. I'm sure if he shops around, he'll get it fixed for well less than what the insurance company gives him.

whippet

TheBigLebowski wrote:

Has your mate brought the car to an independent garage himself to find out how much they would charge to get it fixed. The garages attached to insurance companies are rip off merchants. Someone I know was in the same situation very recently. In a car crash. Wasn't their fault. Car worth 3000. Insurance company said it would cost about 3000 to fix so wrote it off. She kept the car. She took the 3000 and went to another place and got it fixed for 1000 and pocketed 2000.

how could that be?

once the car is a write off, the insurance company owns the car (wreck), she would have had to buy the wreck back from the ins. company?

something does not add up.

TheBigLebowski

Well thats the way it worked. The insurance company saved themselves the bother of having to collect the car. You don't get much for scrap and it ain't cheap to have someone come and collect it.

el tel

Big Nelly wrote:

Not really anything to do with his insurance company because it is been paided by hers so his insurance shouldnt be affected....

Is he not legally obliged to inform his own insurance company that he was invloved in an accident, regardless of fault? It usually says this in the terms of the insurance - it certainly does in mine. They after all need to know that the car has been damaged and repaired as it will affect any future payouts should he make a claim himself.
It's a bit of a funny one in your mate's instance; if he was in any way technically uninsured, would his insurer ever admit this to the other insurer he's claiming off? hmmm!

Paul (MN)

€5000 for a 1993 1.3?????? you must be kidding.
It's nearly 13 years old.

Take the 5k and buy a similar car in the B&S for 1k absolute max.

Big Nelly

el tel wrote:

Is he not legally obliged to inform his own insurance company that he was invloved in an accident, regardless of fault? It usually says this in the terms of the insurance - it certainly does in mine.
It's a bit of a funny one in your mate's instance; if he was in any way technically uninsured, would his insurer ever admit this to the other insurer he's claiming off? hmmm!

Yeah he has told Quinn....but as usually they got it all wrong and thought he was claiming against them and sent out a claim form....spent 2 days trying to explain to them he wasnt but just wanted some advice......class they are!! :rolleyes:

havent a clue if company will exchange info!!

TheBigLebowski

whippet wrote:

once the car is a write off, the insurance company owns the car (wreck)

Not necessarily. A write off just means that it would cost more to fix the car than the car is worth so they just give the money instead. You can be sure if the car had been a new car with 3000 damage, it wouldn't have been written off. An insurance write off does not mean the car needs to be scrapped.

Big Nelly

Paul (MN) wrote:

€5000 for a 1993 1.3?????? you must be kidding.
It's nearly 13 years old.

Take the 5k and buy a similar car in the B&S for 1k absolute max.

Man go back to school and learn how to read

1999

whippet

TheBigLebowski wrote:

An insurance write off does not mean the car needs to be scrapped.

once the insurance company payout on a write off they own the car, just like if you claimed for a stolen piece of jewlery and it was recovered .. the insurance company now own the jewlery.

TheBigLebowski

whippet wrote:

once the insurance company payout on a write off they own the car, just like if you claimed for a stolen piece of jewlery and it was recovered .. the insurance company now own the jewlery.

Only if they want to take ownership. All they're doing is saying "you're car is worth 3000, the damage is 3000, we can't be arsed getting fixed so here's 3000". It's quite simple and it just happened to my mate. And she's not an imaginary friend and I don't just come here to make up stories.

TheBigLebowski

whippet wrote:

once the insurance company payout on a write off they own the car, just like if you claimed for a stolen piece of jewlery and it was recovered .. the insurance company now own the jewlery.

That's not a fair comparison because the jewellery would be worth as much when it's recovered as when it was stolen. But on the other hand if the jewllery was damaged and would cost more to repair than it was worth. They wouldn't bother, would they? And if it cost a good few hundred quid to get the jewellery taken away then they'd probably be happy if somebody just took it off their hands.

seamus

whippet wrote:

once the insurance company payout on a write off they own the car, just like if you claimed for a stolen piece of jewlery and it was recovered .. the insurance company now own the jewlery.

A common option that insurance companies give is self-scrappage. That is, the insurance company will give you, say, €3500 to take the car off your hands, or they give you €3000, and you find a garage that will scrap it and give you €500.

A well-known scam is to find a friendly garage that tells the insurance company they'll scrap it, then they fix the car and take half the compensation - so the claimant comes out of it with their car intact and cash in their pocket.

Big Nelly

seamus wrote:

A common option that insurance companies give is self-scrappage. That is, the insurance company will give you, say, €3500 to take the car off your hands, or they give you €3000, and you find a garage that will scrap it and give you €500.

A well-known scam is to find a friendly garage that tells the insurance company they'll scrap it, then they fix the car and take half the compensation - so the claimant comes out of it with their car intact and cash in their pocket.

Now thats fraud!! :eek:

Jip

There's no fraud going on here, he's insured, full stop.

Big Nelly

Jip wrote:

There's no fraud going on here, he's insured, full stop.

Read the thread....the whole point is to find out if he is insured if on first provisional with no FLD with him! !

Jip

And read my post, he IS insured.

jhegarty

_raptor_ wrote:

he's not disclosing full details (that he was breaking the law by not having a FLD with him) that counts as fraud as you can bet your bottom dollar that that info would change the outcome of the claim drastically

that would only be the case if he was at fault...he wasn't at fault , so it doesn't matter what licence he had....

by your logic , I could get drunk , steal a car and then crash into a L drive (with no FLD with them) and it would be their fault ?

Big Nelly

jhegarty wrote:

that would only be the case if he was at fault...he wasn't at fault , so it doesn't matter what licence he had....

by your logic , I could get drunk , steal a car and then crash into a L drive (with no FLD with them) and it would be their fault ?

your losing the point....she is a FLD....he isnt....its her fault but because he is on a first provisional license will his insurance cover him.....if not then because he has no insurance then it is his fault and he will get nothing and have to pay for her car.......in other words will the insurance company cover a driver who shouldnt be on the road without a FLD with him......this has already been mentioned on the thread!! read back before posting please!!

Using your terms....if I am a FLD and I go out locked and smash into someone, even if not my fault......it will be my fault because I am locked no matter how the crash occured!

Big Nelly

Jip wrote:

And read my post, he IS insured.

Explain then???

Jip

Big Nelly, do you having trouble seeing something that you don't want to see, the L Driver is insured.

Big Nelly

Jip wrote:

Big Nelly, do you having trouble seeing something that you don't want to see, the L Driver is insured.

I not sure what you mean? I asked a question because I wasnt sure....every thread so far hasnt really convinced me that L drivers on there first provisional license is insured without a FLD....>I have asked you to back up your claim that they are......you havent backed this up....if you are so sure please explain how you know this....simply question!!! remember its my mate and I want to make sure he is if he trys to push for more money and hten gets oh you are not insured!!

Remember it is the law that a first provisional driver is supposed to have a FLD with them at all times!!

TheBigLebowski

His insurance might not cover him if he does not meet the conditions of his license which state that he must have a fully licensed driver with him. You can tell an insurance company whatever you like. I could say I've been driving for 25 years with a full license and they'll insure me but when I make a claim, they will check to see if what I said is true. In this case, he was not at fault but the other drivers insurance company could make the case that he should not have been on the road in the 1st place although I doubt they would be successful.

seamus

Big Nelly wrote:

your losing the point....she is a FLD....he isnt....its her fault but because he is on a first provisional license will his insurance cover him.....if not then because he has no insurance then it is his fault and he will get nothing and have to pay for her car.......in other words will the insurance company cover a driver who shouldnt be on the road without a FLD with him......this has already been mentioned on the thread!! read back before posting please!!

Yes, his insurance company will cover him, because the law says they must.

Using your terms....if I am a FLD and I go out locked and smash into someone, even if not my fault......it will be my fault because I am locked no matter how the crash occured!

Not true. You may be charged with driving under the influence, but it doesn't follow that you automatically assume blame.
Just the same, an uninsured driver in a crash doesn't automatically assume blame.

Jip

Nelly, you never asked me to back anything up, just asked me to reread the thread. Anyway, I refer all future questions to Seamus, he has more patience than me.

Big Nelly

Jip wrote:

Nelly, you never asked me to back anything up, just asked me to reread the thread. Anyway, I refer all future questions to Seamus, he has more patience than me.

Sorry but just going "There's no fraud going on here, he's insured, full stop" with no explanation or any reasoning behind this statement got me confused....the original thread mentioned nothing about fraud......that why i asked to re-read the thread...

Then we get the next post "And read my post, he IS insured" again no explanation or any information on how you came to this conclusion.....so I ask "Explain then???" which you reply to: "Big Nelly, do you having trouble seeing something that you don't want to see, the L Driver is insured"...now sorry if I was missing at school that day but explain then in my language is asking for some sort of explanation as to how you have come to this conclusion.....but all you reply is "Nelly, you never asked me to back anything up, just asked me to reread the thread. Anyway, I refer all future questions to Seamus, he has more patience than me."

So do you have an explantion or just trolling through every thread and just adding in posts without any information/backup or explanation? if so can you stay away from any of my threads!! thanks

Thanks Seamus for the info!! just wanted to be sure the law would cover him for this!! will see what they get back to him today on!! hopefully will come to a good conculsion for all....will post updates in case this happens to anyone else

Also quick tip for everyone, and one I have told my mate......do your bloody test! lol!!

Paul (MN)

I rang an insurance company once about this. You are insured if driving on the M50 on a provisional licence with no qualified passenger beside you.

You might get 2 points or whatever but you are still insured.

30-6shooter

I was always aware that the insurance company has to honour the 3rd party side of the insurance, no matter what grey areas you might be in. For example, driving with no FLD on a 1st provisional like in this thread scenario, and also in the example of driving on a motorway on a provisional.

However, what would the result be if that young lads car was a turbo and the turbo wasnt declared. Would he automatically assume blame even though it was the womans fault? Or how would non declaring of a turbo effect the outcome in the original posters scenario?
Just out of interest

RainyDay

30-6shooter wrote:

However, what would the result be if that young lads car was a turbo and the turbo wasnt declared. Would he automatically assume blame even though it was the womans fault? Or how would non declaring of a turbo effect the outcome in the original posters scenario?
Just out of interest

AFAIK, the general principle in such cases is that they will pay out any claims to 3rd parties, but won't pay out any claim by the chancer who lied on his insurance form. They may also pursue the chancer legally for any costs incurred. Same applies to all the mummy's boys who are insured as named drivers on the car mummy has never driven, or the farm boys insured at their farm address while working/living in the big city.

Big Nelly

RainyDay wrote:

or the farm boys insured at their farm address while working/living in the big city.

Ok this is getting old.......with my insurance company(actual proper one not Quinn) it doesnt matter if I live in country or city, this has been phased out by them and most other proper companies....this just sound like sour grapes......get a proper insurance compnay and you will find this out!!!!

RainyDay

Big Nelly wrote:

Ok this is getting old.......with my insurance company(actual proper one not Quinn) it doesnt matter if I live in country or city, this has been phased out by them and most other proper companies....this just sound like sour grapes......get a proper insurance compnay and you will find this out!!!!

I guess you consider Hibernian to be 'not a proper insurance company' so. I just did a quick quote on their website for a 40 year old male accountant with 5 years NCB driving a 2001 Ford 1600cc value €15,000. When I select Dublin 16 area of use, cost for open driving is €790. When I select Mayo as area of use, cost for open driving is €652 - so it's a 21% increase for the Dublin address.