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IRA Decommissioning

  • 25-09-2005 9:25pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭


    The IRA look like they are going to decommission. Is it a PR stunt or the real deal. Will everything be got rid of and all activity stoped. what do ye think


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,786 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Real deal


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭miju


    its happened IRA HAS OFFICIALLY DECOMMISHIONED see http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0925/northpolitics.html its a very good day for Northern Ireland


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4281104.stm
    A report confirming that IRA decommissioning has been completed is to be given to the British and Irish governments on Monday.

    General John de Chastelain, head of the body overseeing the disarmament, is then expected to give a news conference with the two independent witnesses.

    The churchmen who witnessed the process were Catholic priest Father Alex Reid and ex-Methodist president Harold Good.

    The IRA announced an end to its armed campaign in July.

    The republican organisation said it would follow a democratic path ending more than 30 years of violence.

    Statements are also expected on Monday from the IRA, both governments and Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams.

    Earlier on Sunday, Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain said any move on IRA decommissioning must be credible enough to convince unionists.

    "I think the people of Northern Ireland will want to see it actually implemented," he said.

    He said once unionists knew decommissioning was credible and had been put in place, moves could be made towards restoring devolved government in Northern Ireland.

    General de Chastelain, Andrew Sens and Tauno Nieminen - the commissioners of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning - have been in Ireland overseeing the latest round of decommissioning since the beginning of September.

    BBC Northern Ireland security editor Brian Rowan said a meeting between the general and the IRA in July had started this latest process of decommissioning.

    It'll be interesting to see the Unionist reaction to this. I have no doubt that Paisley will express doubts that will never be overcome.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭miju


    ALOT of pressure is gonna be put on the unionists now, IMHO this has really changed the political landscape up North


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 ✭✭✭Cork


    I think that since the NI bank raid and the killing of Robert McCartney. Both governments had a zero tolerance of leaving the provisional movement hang onto weapons.

    Decommissioning while long over due - It is welcomed.

    Criminality carried out by the Provsional movement is also to be ended. Good riddence.

    I think democrats in this island deserve much credit - but I would like to signal out John Hume. He was just so ahead of his time and was never blinkered by a narrowly focused tribal mindset.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,786 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    _raptor_ wrote:
    ALOT of pressure is gonna be put on the unionists now, IMHO this has really changed the political landscape up North

    Well obviously there will be no stage managed propaganda photo oppurtunity for Paisley and their ilk to gloat over.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭boidey


    Isn't decommissioning a bit of an irrelevance now, the use of violence has brought them far enough that they don't need it anymore. There is no way they would ever go back to the "armed struggle" as they like to call it. Its not an option for them anymore.
    If anything it allows them to portray themselves as champions of the greater nationalist cause in standing up to the unionist demands for decommisioning,
    AFAIK the petrol stations are still trading and matches are still legal if they feel they have to make a point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 ✭✭✭Cork


    Events like the NI bank raid show that an end to criminality was needed.

    Future IMC reports will be closely watched.

    The big point is that people in NI have got to see that they have more in common that divides them.

    30 years of needless violence highlight that confidence building measures like decommissioning are essential.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,982 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The IRA won't give up criminality. SF need money. Corporate donors (corrupt favours though they may want) are the lifeblood of political parties and SF doesn't have too many. They are funded through proceedings of crime. Unless SF/IRA are absolutely sure they have watertight investments or that they can survive from the takings from the business empire (pubs, nightclubs, taxi firms etc.) they built up from criminal proceedings then there will always be a place for the IRA in SF's view (they are of course the same entity).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,786 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Any evidence that Sinn Fein are funded through crime? It is very easy to go off on one and start accusing a legal political party, that you do not like, of being funded through crime.

    Of course, you will come back and say 'Ach sure, everybody knows it.... it was in the Sunday Indo'

    Verified links and sources not just articles of speculation?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    murphaph wrote:
    The IRA won't give up criminality. SF need money. Corporate donors (corrupt favours though they may want) are the lifeblood of political parties and SF doesn't have too many. They are funded through proceedings of crime. Unless SF/IRA are absolutely sure they have watertight investments or that they can survive from the takings from the business empire (pubs, nightclubs, taxi firms etc.) they built up from criminal proceedings then there will always be a place for the IRA in SF's view (they are of course the same entity).

    Whereas the Loyalists get their funds, weapons, etc etc from... let me guess.
    I know, they all saved up the money the tooth fairy left them.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hagar wrote:
    Whereas the Loyalists get their funds, weapons, etc etc from... let me guess.
    I know, they all saved up the money the tooth fairy left them.
    Do the loyalists stand for election down here?You'll find that 26 county voters couldn't care less where loyalists get their money as it has no tangible effect here.

    I heard Rory Quinn on Today FM yesterday repeat the allegation that SF is funded by IRA crime.
    If that was being said openly on the national airwaves about any other party-there would be law suits.

    It should be very easy to show that SF is definitely not funded by paramilitary crime if they are not-so why do they leave the allegations out there when it obviously does harm.
    Their vote is static in an environment when theres an appetite for change.
    There are two big reasons for that amongst others (1) Their policies probably dont suit most of the electorate and (2) people are affected by the criminality accusations.


    Getting back to the matter in hand: It's main implication is for unionism-their bogies are dropping like flies.Weapons in the Alqueda environment today were just not on-making todays overdue announcements inevitable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭Mighty_Mouse


    Isn't decommissioning a bit of an irrelevance now,
    always has been imo.

    real deal. when have they not done as said previously?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭miju


    FFS lads, the IRA has just decommishioned it doesnt matter if its 2 years later than it should be it DOES matter that it's happened.

    Regarding criminality there may be criminal elements in Sinn Fein and it will take them time to oust them but again theres criminal elements in other parties also.

    Anyways, me being that why piss and moan about a GOOD thing that has happened as the troubles have more than anything shown progress takes time so at least give them a chance, fair enough alot of the times Sinn Fein / IRA are all mouth but this time they have followed through with their commitment so would it not stand to reason that Sinn Fein will try and clear any ACTIVE criminal elements out of Sinn Fein


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    Thank god its happened... Hopefully it will be a new day for Ireland and a 32 county dublin rule country is on the way soon !!!:):)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭miju


    personally I'm not really bothered about whether Ireland is a 32 county republic I would just love to see the whole thing settled once and for all and its great to see such a massive step has now been taken towards a lasting solution


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,982 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'll wait to hear what DeChastallain as to say at 14.00 before I crack open the shampoo.

    Every illegal firearm removed from the hands of criminals is a good thing, that's a no-brainer. I just don't believe it's appropriate to be jumping around the place believing everything SF/IRA come out with.

    They are of course funded by the proceedings of decades of IRA crime, invested wisely by the likes of Phil Flynn & Co. Does anyone here genuinely believe SF have never knowingly received funds from their paramilitary wing?

    As Earthman says-it's common for other parties' members to publicly state this about SF and if it were untrue it would be easy enough to prove, but they don't disprove it, they don't sue these accusers. Odd behaviour from a legit party don't ya think?

    They claim they spend a pittance (one quarter what the SDLP admit to spending) on electioneering in NI, yet they clearly have a much slicker campaign than the SDLP with a hell of a lot more billboards, posters and flyers. SF like to pretend this superior campaigning is all down to volunteers (pardon the pun) but you can't volunteer a fcukin billboard up on the wall-it has to be paid for. They are dodgy with a capital D.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,786 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    In other words, all you can offer up is speculation and the requirement for the other side to prove you wrong.... very good


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    How do you prove you didn't do something?

    If I accused you of theft you would not try to prove your innocence, you would say "show me proof of my crime".

    The fact that Sinn Féin doesn't spend its life in court chasing libel actions does not make these accussations any less libelous.

    And on that note may I draw attention to the boards charter regarding un-substantiated accusations against people or organizations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Cork wrote:
    Events like the NI bank raid show that an end to criminality was needed.

    I would say a bigger factor in the decommissioning would be the current international view on terrorism. There was way too much pressure for Sinn Fein to prove that they no longer have links to a military wing.

    B.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    BaZmO* wrote:
    I would say a bigger factor in the decommissioning would be the current international view on terrorism. There was way too much pressure for Sinn Fein to prove that they no longer have links to a military wing.

    Ceasefire and decommission has been in the pipeline since well before September 2001. This is not something suddenly whipped up.

    Your post remind me of an American I met in Empire Bar.
    "The IRA is decommissioning because they are scared thay Bush will bring soldiers here", yeah right boyo :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    murphaph wrote:
    Does anyone here genuinely believe SF have never knowingly received funds from their paramilitary wing?

    Well, that may be or not be. Still no evidence, tho. You'd think that with raids/buggings of SF offices and digging into the books there would be some trial going on rather that mudslinging, but I can only see mud flying...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    biko wrote:
    Ceasefire and decommission has been in the pipeline since well before September 2001. This is not something suddenly whipped up.
    My statement was just in response to another poster's comment.
    biko wrote:
    Your post remind me of an American I met in Empire Bar.
    "The IRA is decommissioning because they are scared thay Bush will bring soldiers here", yeah right boyo :D
    Ah c'mon, give me some credit!! ;)

    B.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,982 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Ok, moving on because we all know this is going nowhere.

    I have no faith in SF/IRA but I do believe that most of their weapons are gone because I do have faith in the IICD and the 2 clergymen who were present. The unionist politicians must now be wondering what to do. So long as the 'RA keep quiet and don't do anything bold they (the unionists) will come under tremendous pressure from London to sit down with SF.

    I can't stand these unionists who will never accept that SF/IRA have changed their tactics (primarily because violence failed) and they just don't know what to do now. They are sh!tting themselves and everyone can see that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    This is a great day for ireland. The IRA have proven their commitment to the peace process. I hope the unionist believe what was said today. I hope the media focus on the loyalists and their feuding so they commit to peace by putting their weapons beyond use and sit down with SF. 32 county ireland can become a real possiblity then


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Watching BBC, Mr Paisley and co are not satisfied (what a shock :D ) and so the loyalist violence goes on, against their own and against the crown and police.
    Hopefully the the people of NI will someday soon be rid of the sectarian trouble that is Ian Paisley and get more John Humes or David Fords in power, people who can respect protestants and catholics alikea dn don't just fan the flames for their own means.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Ian Paisley is a threat to peace in Northern Ireland. He must be removed at all costs.. the IRA decomission in front of the eyes of an independent board and he still has something to complain about.
    But Reverend Ian Paisley, the Democratic Unionist Party, said there had been no transparent verification of IRA decommissioning in today's announcement.

    He said today's announcement showed the "duplicity and dishonesty of the two governments and the IRA". He said there had been a "cunning cover-up" and no announcement of what had been decommissioned, as was required by Unionists.

    Ian Paisley is the lowest of the low. Rid him from this land.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    The unionist must put the pressure on him for that to happen. And they will because of the feuding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Hmmm, apparently as the IRA approved the 2 witnesses they are not independent.

    MrP


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭Tomohawk


    What difference will a 32 county Ireland make?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,982 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Tomohawk wrote:
    What difference will a 32 county Ireland make?
    Increased taxes in the existing Republic, decreased level of service in same, decreased level of service in existing NI, increased unemployment in existing NI (1/3 of all employed people in NI are public servants!). Not a pretty picture really. Better off with 2 peaceful sovereign states inhabiting this island.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭miju


    MrPudding wrote:
    Hmmm, apparently as the IRA approved the 2 witnesses they are not independent.

    MrP

    of course they would have to approve them this was the compromise they came to when the IRA ruled out photos being taken for the Unionists to mull over and make posters out of


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    murphaph wrote:
    Better off with 2 peaceful sovereign states inhabiting this island.

    Materially perhaps, but what about the old chicken soup for the soul Murphaph?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Ian Paisley, for a so called "Man of God" he has very little faith in his fellow man.

    Bu then again faith was probably an extra $5 in the degree mill where he purchased his doctorate in theology.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Ah its election time again, Vladimir Lenin ahem Bertie the red is looking to dump Mary and get into bed with Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein knows this and will do anything to get more votes down south. I hope this plan fails as i want Kenny for Taoiseach and a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition government. Anyway no matter what is done up north remember
    Ulster is not for sale.
    no matter what is done they will say no, until the referendum is called and the fca sent in to keep the peace, then and only then will peace prevail.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Tomohawk wrote:
    What difference will a 32 county Ireland make?
    murphaph wrote:
    Increased taxes in the existing Republic, decreased level of service in same, decreased level of service in existing NI, increased unemployment in existing NI (1/3 of all employed people in NI are public servants!). Not a pretty picture really.
    You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

    ROFLCOPTER Move this to Humour somebody, I'm just off to change my underpants.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote:
    Ian Paisley is a threat to peace in Northern Ireland. He must be removed at all costs... Ian Paisley is the lowest of the low. Rid him from this land.
    "Will no-one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,530 ✭✭✭jmcc


    You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.
    As opposed to FF+PDs? :) What change would that be?

    Regards...jmcc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭patzer117


    Firstly I do believe the IRA have decomissioned all the weapons the leadership were able to get hold of. Obviously some dissident republicans remain with weapons as do splinter groups. It is a huge day for the Island, but unfortunately one that will not be recognised for a long while. P O'Neill let his name be sullied during the McCarthy affair and the Northern Bank robbery and the Unionists have every reason not to trust the IRA/SF. They should however trust the IMC and Gen de Chas.

    As for what happens next it'll be a long stalemate. If I were Ian Paisley I wouldn't go into government with SF - in the same way that Michael McDowell wouldn't. It's not because of the IRA it's because you look at things from such a different perspective both completely contradictory and the idea of sharing power seems ludricous to him.

    Hopefully a compromise can be worked out, but I wouldn't count on it. At the moment the ball is completely in the Loyalist court - either for the paramilitaries to decommision or for the UUP or DUP to step forward and take some initiative in the issue.

    Patzer


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

    LOL and Ian Paisley is P O'Neill's brother.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 ✭✭✭supersheep


    That is one hell of a scary thought: Ian Paisley (or even worse, his son) in power down here. If that happened, I can suddenly see Ireland becoming a lot more politicised, and probably a resurgence of violent groups. Not saying that I would advocate the removal of bigots like him or anything... I have no problem with Unionists in power. I have a problem with bigoted scum like him in power.
    The biggest problem with decommissioning is that the Unionists can totally ignore it if they want to, because no-one knows how many guns the PIRA has, not even its commanders. It's kind of like a squirrel burying its nuts, and forgetting where some of them are. I'd say they've often put down a few guns somewhere, and then the guy who buried them or was responsible for them was killed. Now, it probably became more organised as time went on, but there will never be a total confirmed inventory. So the Unionists can just decide that they don't like it, and stay out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭dent


    It was a great day for Ireland especially for those in Northern Ireland. Anything that continues to promote peace deserves our praise. I'd imagine this was a huge step for many in the IRA and I never thought I'd see the day.

    The Unionists however are going to be sceptical and I don't think they can be blamed for being cautious. We are also waiting on a report on IRA criminality.

    The exception is of course Paisley who thrives on division and bigotry.

    I really hope that some level headed members of his party will start to engage with SF to at least talk about getting the assembly back on its feet.

    Hard times are still ahead and I hope this will be another turning point in the north's history.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    supersheep wrote:
    because no-one knows how many guns the PIRA has, not even its commanders

    I believe the UK had estimates of what they believe they had and they met/exceeded those estimates (they were not told these estimates beforehand afaik). Even so the point is that even if all guns are not handed over and its later found to be true they didn't do this then it would be a serious blow to the PIRA.

    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭dent


    Hobbes wrote:
    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?

    I think it would have been very dangerous to include Paisley. He could simply lie about what he saw or rub it republican face's. Either way I think he would do more damage than good.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Hobbes wrote:
    But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?

    The frustration of not seeing it happen will haunt him to his grave. Which leaves me with mixed feelings. Should he die soon and give us all a break? Or should his torment go on? I just can't decide.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Thing I don't get about Paisley is that he keeps going on about the IRA being involved in the Northern Bank robbery, but when he's asked to provide evidence he puts his full faith in the British and Irish intelligence.

    However, when it comes to the completion of the Decommissioning he is unwilling to accept the word of the same intelligence groups. :rolleyes:

    B.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    I hope in january when the IRA criminality is found to be completely dead and Sinn Fein accept the PSNI that Tony Blair will tell Paisley "its the Unionists next" and then we can see some real long term peace, power-sharing in NI and we'll closer than we have ever been to a united ireland.

    As Eamon Dunphy said on Q&A last night, both sides NOW have to wipe the slate clean and look to the future. I think peace depends on this happening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Milo


    the unionist demand of seeing an inventory of IRA weapons, to put their minds at ease, can now be achieved once they convince their paramilitaries to "put weapons beyond use" instead of using them to attack nationalist areas, riot and attack GAA supporters coming back from the All-Ireland!

    If that is in fact the real reason they want to see the inventory!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭patzer117


    dent wrote:
    I think it would have been very dangerous to include Paisley. He could simply lie about what he saw or rub it republican face's. Either way I think he would do more damage than good.

    He definitely could do more damage than good - by letting him, the IRA's sworn enemy see theit decommisioning would have been a kick in the teeth to the IRA. Many members simply would not have accepted it and would have split like they did to form the Real IRA (and look where that ended up - Omagh). By publishing a photograph or an inventory we could have a situation where DUP election posters would be pictures of decommisioning under the slogan 'Look what we did'.

    I honestly think that Paisley knows the game is up, and is squirming for some wriggle room. In this situation it should be 'innocent until proven guilty' - treat the IRA as fully decommisioned until we see otherwise.

    Patzer


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