What ever happened to the Metro to the airport ?

Maskhadov

What has exactly happened to the metro to the airport. Its a peice of infastrurcture that was meant to built years ago and is still sitting on the table in some ministers office somewhere. The Tribune covered the story today about this miserable country not having leaders who can deliver major infastructural projects that would just be the norm in any other european country.

The target date of 2007 seems like a pipedream for a start. If we got it before the end of the decade I personally would think its a miracle.

Will we ever get proper infastruture in this country or is the Metro dead as a dodo??

DublinWriter

I think they spent all the money on E-Voting machines and attractive female PR consultants.

Maskhadov

I dont want to get into politics but maybe its about time we had a new government who could actually deliver major peices of infastructure. Bertie et al have sat on their asses since they got re elected, they have done very little around the country but are great at talking.

Personally Im in favour of introducing the Critical infastructure bill and moving away from emphasis on private property. This peice of infastructure would serve Dublin and Ireland for the next 100 years and if a few individuals have to lose out then so be it. Not that Bertie will take any tough decisions. Muppets

DublinWriter

Maskhadov wrote:

Not that Bertie will take any tough decisions. Muppets

Exactly, just doing the minimum it takes to get them back into office again - and the SSIA's mature within 12 months of the next general election - wow, what a coincedence.

weehamster

Forget about the metro. The current plan is Dead. Its costs over €5 billion for a 6 stop single line from Stephens Grn to the Airport. It will do nothing to reduce traffic numbers. It is simply a white elephant.

There is a far more important project which will have a much bigger impact of traffic and it is cheaper too. Its called the Dublin Rail Plan
For €3.4 billion you'll have the DART extended to Drogheda, Maynooth, Kildare, Dunboyne (reopened section of the Navan rail line) as well as a link to Dublin Airport (the Dunboyne and Airport links have been valued at €440 million).

Then all theses lines will be linked up (including the existing DART and Luas lines) with the "Interconnector". A €1.3 billion tunnel from Heuston St to Spence Dock in the North Dublin Docklands with stops at High St in the liberties, Stephens Green and Pearse St.

Try www.platform11.org for more infor regarding rail transport.

MarkoP11

The whole thing is a farce looking after the interests of politicans and business interests. The program for government is not that specific about what kind of public transport goes to the airport. We could a have a DART link for about €440 million and it could have been in place by now if Iarnrod Eireann where allowed, but you can't because it would piss off the business interests who want a stranglehold on the airport if they build the metro

The metro on paper is a very sound idea but and its a huge but they (aka Bertie) decided to build it as a PPP which in turn means the net cost to the taxpayer over 20-25 years is somewhere near 2.5 times the actual cost. The current 5 billion price tag (4.861 billion to be precise at 2002 prices) does not include the section Airport to Swords. If built as a normal government funded project thew cost would be well under 2 billion and paid for by government taking a loan out at 3% the PPP would be more like 10%

So what then followed was a cost cutting splurge where the RPA ripped huge chunks out of the spec we went from 6 car trains to 3 cars we lost the slightly longer but more beneficial finglas alignment. All the integration disappeared. The RPA then buried all the info and hid behind the exempted record part of the FoI act so no one else could actual really work out what was going on

Then Iarnrod Eireann showed up with a plan costed at 3.4 billion (of which about 400 million has been spent) to bring the DART to Kildare, Maynooth, Dunboyne, Drogheda, Dublin Airport and the Dublin Docklands and link the whole thing up with a tunnel aka the interconnector. Plus it would carry somewhere in the region of 50-75million people over and above the current 25 million.

So we now have two projects Iarnrod Eireann offering a cheaper deal moving a lot more people, a track record in on time on budget project delivery and doable in stages (as in you could pull the plug at any time). On the other hand the RPA have a single line of a heavily chopped down metro for a ever increasing price tag and its a all or nothing deal and a history of poor management late delivery and over budget

It was never an either or and both camps admit that but its clear Brian Cowan's overdraft doesn't stretch to both and on a value for money basis (not to mention votes in the next election) Iarnrod Eireann have a significant lead

Let us not forget Mary O'Rourke turned down an offer in 1999 from The Dublin Metro Group/Japanese consortium to design build and operate a Shanagagh to Airport metro, that deal would have meant no Green Line Luas instead replaced by a high capacity metro which we now see in hindsight as being the right solution not the comprised mess we got

KnowItAll

They promised the metro to get votes. It's as simple as that tbh

SeanW

This gov't are a pack of langers IMO. Let's look at this 10 year plan for transport: The gov't announced the plan in the Estimates last November/early December, but its going to be THIS November/December at least before anything gets started. So that's what - an entire year with absolutley nothing done ... Cheers muppets, you've lived up to my expectations like clockwork. The SSIAs are IMO a complete and total waste of money - but hey all that cash is just going to come surging into the economy right before the election. Oh my, how convenient.

Maskhadov

Cullen to meet Cowen over transport plan




Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is to meet Finance Minister Brian Cowen in the coming weeks to try and break the deadlock over the much awaited 10 year Strategic Transport Plan.

The plan was first announced by Mr Cullen last November with the publication of the Budget Estimates. Details were to have been announced "within weeks".

As reported in The Irish Times last July, however, senior officials in the Department of Finance had reservations over aspects of the plan, particularly the expensive new rail links in Dublin.

While the Department of Finance has committed about €10 billion to finish the State's inter-urban motorway programme over the next five years, it is the second five years and the investment of a further €10 billion in public transport which is presenting difficulty for finance officials.

The department is understood to be concerned about starting the Dublin airport metro and running into final costs vastly ahead of those which had initially been expected, as happened with the motorway programme, the Dublin Port Tunnel and Luas. Junior Transport Minister Ivor Callely has been told by major international metro builders that a standard metro could be built for as little as €80 million per kilometre including land costs, putting the total cost of the Dublin airport metro under €1½ billion.

But there is scepticism of this in official circles and while even the Taoiseach is supportive of the public transport package, the uncertainty over costs has been the major cause of delay.

However, despite a delay of almost a year, the Department of Transport remained optimistic yesterday that the plan was "close to finalisation".

"The Ministers will meet shortly to work towards finalisation and it will then be published," said Dan Pender, Mr Cullen's press spokesman.

Much of what is in the plan has already been revealed. In the roads section candidates for inclusion include the new orbital motorway around Dublin, in which the Taoiseach has expressed interest, and the Eastern bypass of Dublin.

In public transport terms there are existing commitments to reopening lines and expanding commuter services around Cork city; linking up the two Luas lines in Dublin; extensions of Luas to Citywest, the docklands, Cherrywood and Swords and the development of the airport metro. The plan is understood to include the Irish Rail plan for an interconnector between Dublin's Heuston and Connolly Stations; a new station in the docklands and an underground in the south city between Pearse Station and Heuston.

Other elements vying for inclusion include an extension of the Ennis to Limerick line to serve Shannon Airport, reopening of passenger services between Limerick and Galway and remaining elements of the Western Rail Corridor between Galway and Sligo.

Last night sources in the Department of Finance pointed out that the annual budget of the Department of Transport was over €2 billion, almost €1.5 billion of which is committed to the National Roads Programme over the next five years.

Sources maintained the scale of the plan was too ambitious for the remaining budget.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0926/3973596461HM4TRANSPORT.html


© The Irish Times

According to that (ministers speaking off the record) the metro is dead as a dodo. There is better chance of Somilia getting a metro than Dublin airport. Not because its expensive (€1.5bn internationally speaking) but because this country is a mess and cost over runs here are astronomical.

A Dub in Glasgo

The metro may be dead but there are better schemes on the horizon if the government would agree with the IE plans as outlined by MarkoP11

jd

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The metro may be dead but there are better schemes on the horizon if the government would agree with the IE plans as outlined by MarkoP11

Surely interconnector, dart to airport, and luas to ballymun (from Sandyford)-maybe extended to airport - should be thje way to go.

jd

Irjudge1

weehamster wrote:

For €3.4 billion you'll have the DART extended to Drogheda, Maynooth, Kildare, Dunboyne (reopened section of the Navan rail line) as well as a link to Dublin Airport (the Dunboyne and Airport links have been valued at €440 million).

QUOTE]

Dart from Drogheda ain't what I need. Something that speeds up the journey would be preferable. Duplication of rail lines from Dundalk to Dublin and allow express commuter service to by-pass the normal services. Start Dundalk with stops at Drogheda, new station between Balbriggan and Skerries with ample parking and bus service to/from the two towns.

MarkoP11

Using the DART brand is slightly misleading for the Drogheda and Kildare lines since it will be a 90/100mph capable train between 8 and 12 coaches long 6 times an hour. Its not going to be one of the current fleet. The current commuter fleet can only manage 68-75mph add in a higher top speed and roughly double the acceleration rate and big chunks of time are going to fall off the journey times.

This is sensible planning compared to the RPA 3 car metro which does squat for everyone on the M50 and its approaches

Finally people are begining to realise the RPA are a pack of jokers and have failed utterly in there mandate to provide us with a metro system

Irjudge1

That certainly sounds more like it Marko.

MarkoP11

Forgot to mention they might go to double decker operation as well, this is serious hard core scalable plan, you can add bits piece by piece, each piece on its own having a significant impact

Finally the RPA have hit the brick wall, we want a proper metro. There are a lot of people who say Platform11 are anti metro, we are not we want basic accepted international standards be followed that the extensive research done be accepted, get it right. Business interests should take note a better metro means more passengers, thats what the public want too, why is it so hard? The RPA have backed themselves into a corner having made a hash of the Luas, it was over a year late and the cost well no one knows since the budget kept increasing as the overspend happened but it was way over budget

The next question is why do the RPA exist ? The really pointless agency need I say more

Victor

Apparently, according to the Turbine, the basement / future train station will be converted to a temporary check-in hall in the next year or two.

Oddly, the two railway reservations - west of Finglas and Ballymun - both have alignments under DAAs terminal two (current Pier 1C), not under Terminal 1.

See my sketch here: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/17460.JPG

strassenwolf

Ireland.com wrote:

The plan is understood to include the Irish Rail plan for an interconnector between Dublin's Heuston and Connolly Stations; a new station in the docklands and an underground in the south city between Pearse Station and Heuston.

Can anyone explain this? I thought the tunnel between Pearse and Heuston was part of Irish Rail's interconnector. The above paragraph gives the impression that it's a separate thing entirely.

Victor

See edits

Ireland.com wrote:

The [10 year Strategic Transport] plan is understood to include the Irish Rail plan for an interconnector between Dublin's Heuston and Connolly Stations [which includes] a new station in the docklands and an underground in the south city between Pearse Station and Heuston.

MarkoP11

Lazy reporters and mis informed reporters have haven't bothered to do any reasearch one phone call to Barry Kenny in IE would explain all, no one has ever bothered to ask me either its Heuston, High Street Stephen's Greenm, Pearse, Spencer Dock

Makes you wonder what the metro actually is........

strassenwolf

Thanks for that, Victor. That's pretty clear now.

murphaph

Victor,
I raised this over on the P11 boards but seeing as you've mentioned it....

The proposed metro alignment as indicated in that FCC map you posted (with superimposed T2 etc.) is running in an eerily similar direction to the annex to a central bulding in the image I've attached. I've taken the liberty of highlighting the annex to the building which appears to be at the heart of the new airport. I wonder could this rectangular annex be a large glass structure to allow natural light to reach sub-surface platforms (as anyone who's travelled throug Cologne-Bonn Airport's railway station will be familiar with). Couldbe purely coincidence of course.

Take a look-see. The image is from the DAA report into the new T2.

Metrobest

Maskhadov wrote:

What has exactly happened to the metro to the airport. Its a peice of infastrurcture that was meant to built years ago and is still sitting on the table in some ministers office somewhere. The Tribune covered the story today about this miserable country not having leaders who can deliver major infastructural projects that would just be the norm in any other european country.

The target date of 2007 seems like a pipedream for a start. If we got it before the end of the decade I personally would think its a miracle.

Will we ever get proper infastruture in this country or is the Metro dead as a dodo??

I don´t think the metro is dead - it´s an integral part of the ten year plan and I can´t see Irish Rail´s paws getting near the lion´s share of the public transport figure.

Despite attempts by other posters to attack the RPA and its metro plan, the metro is a much-needed piece of infrastructure for North Dublin. And it has been fully costed - the construction figure is well on par with European norms, given the slightly higher cost base associated with Ireland.

Luas will not do the job. Did you ever hear of a modern European capital city linking its city centre to its 30m passenger airport via a circuitous on-street tram, as P11 seems to support? What craziness that is. For a start, on-street trams cause massive disruption to city life during the build - remember Harcourt Street? And then they are hampered by capacity constraints, the vagaries of street life and the general slowness of an on-street trams. You need only witness the Heuston-Conolly luas to confirm this fact.

The congested suburbs of North Dublin and the airport need this metro plan. It´s all very well to waffle on about DARTS and interconnectors but that´s no good for the hundreds of thousands of Northsiders and airport users (ie. the whole country) who are stuck in massive traffic jams or inefficient buses. A DART system inaccessible to the vast majority of Dubliners is not the way to link the airport and city.

For God´s sake let´s stop talking about the costs; let´s build the thing and do the post-mortem later. I´m confident that once built, like luas, Dubliners will fall in love with the metro and people will be clamouring for extensions here there and everywhere.

gobdaw

Metrobest wrote:

For a start, on-street trams cause massive disruption to city life during the build - remember Harcourt Street?

Has Harcourt St entered urban mythology? Its the only stretch of on-street track for the Dundrum line but it is always mentioned, thanks to the media manipilation of a certain female. No mention of the Abbey Streets, James's St, Davitt Road etc. being disrupted during Luas build of the Tallaght line. Isn't it strange considering..

Metrobest wrote:

the hundreds of thousands of Northsiders and airport users (ie. the whole country) who are stuck in massive traffic jams

BrianD

Given that the proposed metro is a single line with no further thoughts or plans given to future lines of a similar nature the public will be best served in every respect by integrating the airport line into the existing heavy rail network. IR are obviously the best candidate for the job. If the line was to be integrated it would have to include the necessary improvements on the existing network to allow the rapid and frequent operation of the line. It also must extend to Swords to be justified. BTW we do have excellent and efficient bus links to the airport.

I am very sceptical if a metro line is actually needed to the airport. Let's look at the realities:

Business travellers - will use the taxi option whenever they can. All expenses paid.
Families - Car travel is justified because of the numbers and luggage. In any case, our hairbrained Airport-Duck pond line doesn't allow our country friends to get off at a mainline rail station and get the metro.
Airport workers - would be users and it would be ideal for them. Unfortunately, ample parking means they will probably stick with the car.

So no matter how you look at it the DART is the only sensible and realistic way of providing a service from Swords via the airport.

Metrobest wrote:

The congested suburbs of North Dublin and the airport need this metro plan. It´s all very well to waffle on about DARTS and interconnectors but that´s no good for the hundreds of thousands of Northsiders and airport users (ie. the whole country) who are stuck in massive traffic jams or inefficient buses. A DART system inaccessible to the vast majority of Dubliners is not the way to link the airport and city.

Do you read what you write? Irrespective whether it is and integrated DARt line or an unintegrated "metro" it is still a single line. It will not serve all of northside Dublin it is but a spoke in the wheel and part of the solution - not the solution itself. The advantage of the DART system is that you'll have a integrated rail system serving Dublin once the Maynooth and Kildare line is brought under the DART system. I can hop on a Dart or Luas and with one change I'll be at the airport.

Metrobest wrote:

For God´s sake let´s stop talking about the costs; let´s build the thing and do the post-mortem later. I´m confident that once built, like luas, Dubliners will fall in love with the metro and people will be clamouring for extensions here there and everywhere.

Once upon a time there was a road built called the M50 ... need I say anymore?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Despite attempts by other posters to attack the RPA and its metro plan, the metro is a much-needed piece of infrastructure for North Dublin

A quality metro would be, not what the RPA are proposing.

Metrobest wrote:

Luas will not do the job. Did you ever hear of a modern European capital city linking its city centre to its 30m passenger airport via a circuitous on-street tram, as P11 seems to support?

P11 supports the Dublin Rail Plan, which includes a heavy rail (DART) connection to Dublin airport and also supports a quality metro running to Swords via the airport. P11 does not support the proposal by the RPA which will not integrate well with existing & proposed services and will be running at capacity from day 1 (3 car metro running at 90 second headway is not the way a modern metro shold be built as it does not allow any room for expansion). Can you please show me where a P11 spokesperson has said they would not support a metro in any form?

Metrobest wrote:

What craziness that is.

<philip resists urge to comment on craziness>

Metrobest wrote:

The congested suburbs of North Dublin and the airport need this metro plan.

They don't need this metro plan. They need a better one.

Metrobest wrote:

It´s all very well to waffle on about DARTS and interconnectors but that´s no good for the hundreds of thousands of Northsiders and airport users (ie. the whole country) who are stuck in massive traffic jams or inefficient buses. A DART system inaccessible to the vast majority of Dubliners is not the way to link the airport and city.

The Dublin Rail Plan adresses the DART's innaccessibility by expanding it vastly, including running it in tunnels under the city centre and to the airport. The Dublin Rail Plan also improves national access to the national airport by allowing 1 change access from all intercity railway lines to DART (at Heuston, Pearse and Howth Junction). It is so much more than a 3 car 'metro' as proposed by the RPA, despite your poor attempts to put negative spin on it. Every individual part of the Dublin Rail Plan brings tangible benefits as they are unveiled (electrification of Maynooth and Kildare lines, Quad tracking to Kildare etc.). This cannot be said of a metro (even a proper one, as opposed to the RPA 'metro').

Metrobest wrote:

For God´s sake let´s stop talking about the costs; let´s build the thing and do the post-mortem later. I´m confident that once built, like luas, Dubliners will fall in love with the metro and people will be clamouring for extensions here there and everywhere.

That's the type of rubbish I've come to expect from you on this subject. You don't even pay fcuking tax here yet you want to "do the post-mortem (on where OUR money went) later". The RPA proposal is substandard and Dubliners and the nation deserve a better connection to their airport and on to Swords (which the RPA do not propose and haven't released any figures on). If it were an either/or then the DRP would win hands-down, but it's not an either/or, we can have the DRP and a quality metro. You seem dead keen for us just to have a crappy metro and nowt else.

aliveandkicking

here we go again with the Metro vs Dublin rail plan battle but in reality their not either/or projects rather their complimentary projects however the pragmatists among us are skeptical that the Government will give the go ahead to both so its a case of favourisg the best solution i.e. the Dublin Rail Plan.

For anyone wondering why many people dismiss the proposed RPA Metro have a glance at this superb report:

http://www.platform11.org/reports/2005/metro_eng_eval.pdf

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

For God´s sake let´s stop talking about the costs; let´s build the thing and do the post-mortem later. I´m confident that once built, like luas, Dubliners will fall in love with the metro and people will be clamouring for extensions here there and everywhere.

I can understand "build and be damned", but I won't have "build at any cost".

gobdaw wrote:

Its the only stretch of on-street track for the Dundrum line but it is always mentioned, thanks to the media manipilation of a certain female.

I wonder if she got her window cleaning bill paid?

Maskhadov

To be honest, Im not surprised that the government cant make its mind up about infastructure like the Metro. Just taking a sample from people on the board here its pretty clear that very few people share a similar view in what should be done.

This Metro Vs Dart/Dublin rail plan has been going on for donkeys. How come people cant just agree which one is better suited to us. This country is falling by the wayside when it comes to delivering infastructure.

MarkoP11

If we could afford both well then everyone could be happy, just could

If there was just one agency in charge life would be easy, one of the major issues with the metro is the poor integration and the RPA refusing to acknowledge the existance of other likely projects

Maskhadov

Port Tunnel could herald metro system, says Minister
29/09/2005 - 17:49:13

The successful completion of the Dublin Port Tunnel could provide the springboard for a metro system serving the capital, it was claimed today.

With the 5.6km route due to open early next year, junior transport minister Ivor Callely said lessons learned from the massive project could give the necessary experience to start on an underground public transport network.

“This is the single biggest infrastructural project in the history of our state,” Mr Callely said.

“The experience and what we have achieved here will give us the confidence and courage to pursue other such infrastructural tunnelling projects to benefit this city, including the concepts of extending the DPT [Dublin Port Tunnel] to the south, and commencement of a Metro system.”

Dublin is the only major European capital not served by a metro system, while it is one of few major cities without a dedicated rail link to the airport.

The Government has yet to officially commit to work on an underground, but in the coming months the Cabinet is to discuss and decide on a 10-year transport plan.

Mr Callely and Taoiseach Bertie Ahern travelled through the tunnel today from the port to see how work had progressed. Mr Callely said he was determined to have the route open early next year.

“The DPT will have a tremendously beneficial impact on traffic flow in the Dublin area taking thousands of HGV journeys off our residential roads by facilitating improved access with a tunnel journey time of 7 minutes approx,” he said.

The tunnel built at a cost of €751m, compared with estimates of €580m, will take 20,000 heavy goods vehicles off the city streets every day.

Linking the M50 in the north of Dublin to the port HGVs and other trucks will travel for free but car drivers trying to avoid the congested city centre could be facing tolls of up to €12 at peak times.
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/09/29/story223089.html

LEts all hope it does mean the construction of something for Dublin airport.

MrPudding

I am a recent blowin to this fine city. Could someone please explain to me what exactly is the purpose of the RPA?

MrP

murphaph

MrPudding wrote:

I am a recent blowin to this fine city. Could someone please explain to me what exactly is the purpose of the RPA?

The RPA should be decommissioned.

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

I am a recent blowin to this fine city. Could someone please explain to me what exactly is the purpose of the RPA?

To manage the vast number of subcontractors that run Luas?

SeanW

but in the coming months the Cabinet is to discuss and decide on a 10-year transport plan.

Oh crap

Victor

SeanW wrote:

Oh crap

It's now titled the "9 Year Plan".

Metrobest

Brian D, Journey times for airport-Green by metro would be 17 minutes. That's significantly faster than any DART, bus or taxi. Businessmen are pragmatists. An efficient metro, as proposed, will prove popular with all airport passengers. Besides, only 20% of Green-Airport passengers will actually stopping at the airport. The rest are ordinary commuters who have every right to high frequency, high capacity transport.

In itself the airport metro won't solve Dublin's transport. But neither will the grand metro plans in the DTO's PFC: these are too ambitious. So we need to compromise. The most cost-effective solution. I believe that to be the airport-Green metro coupled with a circle line in the metropolitan canal area of Dublin. It Moves people from where they live to they want to go.

dowlingm

Ideally Dublin Airport would get both a connection westwards from the Northern line, for easy connection from points north as well as the Kildare/Spencer Dock axis and a north south DART line.

The east west line could then continue to the Clonsilla line for changes from Dunboyne/Pace P&R and ultimately Navan (if Meath CC don't persist in doing their best to stop the Navan line happening).

The north south DART line would be "metro" in that being a new line it can be totally segregated from all other transport modes at design stage using elevation and/or tunnelling as appropriate with signalling appropriate to the frequency and possibly with automatic train operation (ATO) starting at Swords (but with the ability to go further north) and ending maybe at the Line A/C link up point. Realistically trains every 90 secs should be designed for but every 3 minutes is probably appropriate in the initial peak period.

DARTmetro stations could have bus stations or covered stops integrated into their construction for ease of connections and as part of unifying fare zones, a practice that should become integral to all new rail stations.

Dublin Airport thus becomes a major transport interchange which will maximise the number of workers who can use transit - passengers themselves are less likely to use it due to baggage.

Victor

What about freight to Dublin airport - primarily fuel. Rather than an endless lines of trucks, you could just have a train that shuttles from the airport to the docks (or Cork or dare I say Bantry)?

BrianD

Metro - 17 min...really? This is only conjecture. Plus who wants to go from the airport to feed the ducks in Stephens green in 17 min. It then takes me another 20 min to walk with my luggage to the nearest station. "It Moves people from where they live to they want to go." - says who???

The DART can deliver the efficient, high capacity and frequency that commuters need. We don't need to labour this fact any more. DART=METRO which bit do you not comprehend? Granted the existing DART line has its genesis in the steam era. There is no grounds to assume that there will be no future upgrading in signalling, track and the removal of level crossings etc. The new spur from either existing line would be built to the standard conventions of modern mass transit rail systems (whether it be underground, overground or both).

The other point to bear in mind is that while a high frequency service may be desirable it may not be justified due to the population and density of Dublin.

How could a separated circle line within the city be justified??? The only real answer is a circle line formed by the interconnector. This allows the full integration of the DART system i.e Dublins metro system and for an efficient provision of trains within the circle. For example, trains from separate lines could enter the circle and do one loop before terminating. This means that there would be a high frequency of trains within the circle section even though the originate in different places. This works well in melbourne where there is an underground circle line fed by trains originating in the suburbs.

Lets forget the ridiculous airport metro plan that will be the biggest white elephant ever built. Put our money into the DART system and expand it as necessary. It is the way forward to giving the city and integrated metro rail system.

Airport fuel - All of it is moved by road from Dublin Port to the Airport. There was a proposal to run an underground pipeline connecting points. Given an election is coming up I doubt if Bertie will be approving a pipe carrying aviation fuel under the homes of his constituents. BTW does anyone know if fuel trucks will be allowed in the port tunnel?

murphaph

Victor wrote:

What about freight to Dublin airport - primarily fuel. Rather than an endless lines of trucks, you could just have a train that shuttles from the airport to the docks (or Cork or dare I say Bantry)?

Good point. Munich receives Jet A1 or whatever it is they put in them thar plane things by rail. This is the fuel storage depot at Munich Airport from space.

strassenwolf

Philip, while you're here, and since we're discussing the metro to the airport, and since you mention Munich - a quick question.

I know there are issues about LUAS/metro compatibility in Dublin - guage, voltage, etc.

What I was wondering was about the Prime Time programme the other day. Martin Cullen said that in Munich, in some places, they run their trams and metro (U-Bahn) on the same tracks.

Was he correct? And if he was, do you know on which lines does this happen?

secret_squirrel

BrianD wrote:

BTW does anyone know if fuel trucks will be allowed in the port tunnel?

I heard they were banned. Infact around 10% of trucks going to the docks wont be able to use the tunnel for one reason or another.

Wolverine_1999

strassenwolf wrote:

Philip, while you're here, and since we're discussing the metro to the airport, and since you mention Munich - a quick question.

I know there are issues about LUAS/metro compatibility in Dublin - guage, voltage, etc.

What I was wondering was about the Prime Time programme the other day. Martin Cullen said that in Munich, in some places, they run their trams and metro (U-Bahn) on the same tracks.

Was he correct? And if he was, do you know on which lines does this happen?

Most of the larger cities in Germany have interconnected rail networks in the city. One second you are underground, and the next you are above in the middle of the city. Infrastructure in most european cities is about a 100 years ahead of Ireland...

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

What I was wondering was about the Prime Time programme the other day. Martin Cullen said that in Munich, in some places, they run their trams and metro (U-Bahn) on the same tracks.

Was he correct? And if he was, do you know on which lines does this happen?

That doesn't happen in Munich. The U-Bahn (metro) is completely segregated from the Tram (for a start the U-Bahn uses 3rd rail while the tram obviulsy uses overhead cables for power supply).

I actually believe Cullen made a hames of what he was saying. He was trying to explain interchanging between tram & metro and he somehow came out with what you heard him say.

In some german cities like Stuttgart & Cologne they use a thing called pre-metro, which is essentially trams (usually quite long ones) which run in tunnels in the city centre. For a complete explanation with pictures etc. see here.

MarkoP11

Plans to link Heuston directly have been floating around since the 1860's, yes I said 1860

As far back as 1975 CIE had plans (Dublin rapid rail transit study) for a link up from East Wall Rd to Heuston, DART to Tallaght, Airport, Blanchardstown the full gig, of course the government as usual pulled the plug, phase one got built Howth Bray but Tallaght got dropped despite the fact phase one had been an unquestionable (and profitable) success the whole thing then got binned

Things have changed alot in Dublin since 1975 but the DRRTS report still has a awful lot of useful stuff, the sprawl we now have stretching the whole way 30+ miles and the growth of the Docklands area forced IE to recast the plan and add 20 miles extra to the west and north to cope. Had we actually committed to the plans in the 1970's we would have a proper city.

What Dublin needs is a system not a messy collection of incompatible routes, Iarnrod Eireann get that, the RPA seem to have a unoffical standing order to be as incompatible as possible as to ensure there continued existence

The politicans are a real problem they all seem to suffer from a disease known as crayonisim, plently of nice lines on maps but rarely anything practical. The 10 year plan is currently being butchered by the department of finance who knows what horrible hodge podge thing we will get

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

That doesn't happen in Munich. The U-Bahn (metro) is completely segregated from the Tram (for a start the U-Bahn uses 3rd rail while the tram obviulsy uses overhead cables for power supply).

I actually believe Cullen made a hames of what he was saying. He was trying to explain interchanging between tram & metro and he somehow came out with what you heard him say.

Thanks for that clarification, Philip. I'd been to Munich a couple of times and used the U-Bahn a bit. But the trams and the U-Bahn seemed to be quite different animals and I didn't think they shared track at any point.

Maybe he needs to pay more attention when Ivor Callely is talking to him about Munich.

And thanks also for the link about Stuttgart. It really is very hilly, so they are doing pretty well to have a system at all. I can recall one tram line along the road into the city from the south which went up a pretty steep gradient before going into a tunnel through one of the hills.

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

And thanks also for the link about Stuttgart. It really is very hilly, so they are doing pretty well to have a system at all. I can recall one tram line along the road into the city from the south which went up a pretty steep gradient before going into a tunnel through one of the hills.

I think I know the one, I've been to Stuttgart a couple of times for work and we stayed in a suburb called Vaihingen. The metro route into the city was like the one you describe. Bit hazy now mind.

BrianD

strassenwolf wrote:

Philip, while you're here, and since we're discussing the metro to the airport, and since you mention Munich - a quick question.

I know there are issues about LUAS/metro compatibility in Dublin - guage, voltage, etc.

What I was wondering was about the Prime Time programme the other day. Martin Cullen said that in Munich, in some places, they run their trams and metro (U-Bahn) on the same tracks.

Was he correct? And if he was, do you know on which lines does this happen?

The only thing that the Luas line has in common with a "metro" line is that the guage is the same as the European norm. This is not to say that you couldn't build a metro using any guage you prefer. In theory, the Greeen line could be upgraded and used as a "metro" line. In practice, it is unrealistic and impractical. The line would have to be completely closed, new power lines and distribution put in, new stations etc. Then a decision on how and where it would go underground all discussed previously here. Not a runner.

Cullen probably got confused by what he saw in Germany. In Dusseldorf, some of the trams travel underground in an environment very similar to a "metro" environment. Quite possibly he may have been in a station that had a tram line and a rail line going through it.

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

Good point. Munich receives Jet A1 or whatever it is they put in them thar plane things by rail. This is the fuel storage depot at Munich Airport from space.

That's shot from a plane, not from space. Never mind the "Satellite" label.

Dermot

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

That's shot from a plane, not from space. Never mind the "Satellite" label.

Don't think so? The copyright holder is DigitalGlobe. They say this in their FAQ about their 'Quickbird' Satellite;

The QuickBird satellite collects commercial imagery of the Earth that has the highest resolution, largest footprint and highest accuracy of any other commercially available satellite imagery in the world. The 60-centimeter resolution of QuickBird images allows objects on the ground as small as 60 centimeters across - or two feet - to be seen. The satellite was launched in October 2001, and its images were made available to the global commercial marketplace in May 2002.

Zooming right out from the linked image would lead me to the conclusion that if the image was shot from a plane that it would have to be at very very high altitude, and then the advantage of aerial photography over satellite imagery is lost (higher resolution).

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

Zooming right out from the linked image would lead me to the conclusion that if the image was shot from a plane that it would have to be at very very high altitude, and then the advantage of aerial photography over satellite imagery is lost (higher resolution).

Hmm - maybe I'm wrong, though with a lot of this kind of ariel photograph, including stuff used on Google maps, you see tell-tale signs of flown footage. The most obvious are on tall buildings, when you can tell that they were shot not from directly above (as from a satellite right overhead and a loooong way off). For instance, I panned down to the Munich Olympiastadion and could see that both the TV tower and the nearby BMW towers had been shot from not-quite-overhead, and there appeared to be a marked difference in the apparent angle (though the BMW towers are shorter...). To the left of the originally pictured fuel depot is a clear seam in the imaging, which I suppose needn't be proof of either approach.

That's got us nicely OT, hasn't it? Possibly a good time to say me-too on the fact that Munich trams and trains share nothing more than a ticketing system. Hey, there's a nifty idea Martin. Maybe we could do that too. Or maybe when you visit as a foreign politician you get to travel for free and miss the best bits...

Dermot