Should Irish channels replace UK ones on analogue cable? [Split from City Channel]

bazzer

I think City Channel are committing commercial suicide by not being available on Dublin analogue. The potential audience of those who will wait until the last possible moment to convert to digital (and I can't see any incentive to do that at present) is just too large to ignore.

Elmo

I think City Channel are committing commercial suicide by not being available on Dublin analogue. The potential audience of those who will wait until the last possible moment to convert to digital (and I can't see any incentive to do that at present) is just too large to ignore.

Agreed: If NTL or Chorus want to roll out Digital TV they need to just have it as the basic package not an add on to Analogue.

or if they aren't going to do that then

As new Irish Channels are announced by the BCI that those channels take over from the current channels on NTL/Chorus.

e.g. C6 takes over from E4
City Channel takes over from NICK

and so on until analogue doesn't provide any british TV.

Of course I think just giving out Free digital with Analogue etc.

bk

Elmo wrote:

and so on until analogue doesn't provide any british TV.

ROFLOL, so your advice is basically for NTL to commit commercial suicide. Access to the UK channels is the number one selling point for the NTL service, the UK channels have large viewership figures here in Ireland, if they were gone from NTL, then most people would simply dump it for Sky or freesat.

Ireland simply doesn't have the population for many local channels, TV3 barely survives as it is and it is basically ITV Ireland with barely any Irish content.

NTL will simply carry the most popular channels on it's analogue service (as long as they don't cost too much), they are basically giving people what they want.

JohnC.

Apart from money, is there any reason why they won't switch off analog and simply replace it completely with digital? They did this with MMDS.

Although I hear the extra incentive there was that the regulator told them they didn't have as many digital customers as they should, so changing everyone on MMDS solved the problem.

Mossy Monk

they will turn it off at some stage but it wont be for a good few years i'd imagine

Elmo

so your advice is basically for NTL to commit commercial suicide. Access to the UK channels is the number one selling point for the NTL service, the UK channels have large viewership figures here in Ireland, if they were gone from NTL, then most people would simply dump it for Sky or freesat.

I don't beleive this to be the case. NTL's basic package isn't all that great

the BCI could easily issue licence for Irish Channels to replace the following exisiting services:-

E4, Discovery, CNBC, Sky One, Sky News, Nick/Paramount and MTV. None of which get "excellent" viewer ratings. They are at about 2% each.

NTL have 30% viewers for the add on annologue services that the provide while Digital has 20% and 50% lies with the Irish Channels.

Most people get NLT for BBC1, 2, UTV and C4 not for the other crap which could easily be produced in Ireland and bring in money into the Irish Economy rather then taking it way.

E4, Sky One, Sky News, C4, UTV, MTV and Nick take 50million euro from the irish economy there is no reason why irish channels could not take this money. Let face it TV3 have proved that by becoming "ITV Ireland" but at least they employ a few people in Ireland.

If people want E4, Discovery, CNBC, Sky One, Sky News, Nick/Paramount and MTV then the should "GO Digital".

I don't see why an Irish company couldn't provide what E4, MTV, NICK, Paramount or Sky One provide and make money.

Mossy Monk

it could be done i guess but would cost a lot of money acquiring the rights to shows

Elmo

it could be done i guess but would cost a lot of money acquiring the rights to shows

Lets take a look at TG4 and E4.

E4 have basically 5 or 6 main imported shows over the year which the repeat and repeat.

TG4 have basically 5 or 6 main imported shows that they also repeat. (but not as much).

TG4 spend 2.5million on imported shows from the US. I don't see why you couldn't increase this budget to add on a 4 or 5 more cheapier imports and repeat them again and again as E4 does? Thus you have Ireland answer to E4.

You won't spend as much for TV rights as any of the british channels.

Bah

Elmo wrote:

TG4 spend 2.5million on imported shows from the US. I don't see why you couldn't increase this budget to add on a 4 or 5 more cheapier imports and repeat them again and again as E4 does? Thus you have Ireland answer to E4.

Isn't the whole existence of TG4 based on its focus on Irish language and home-grown programming - not basing its schedule around imported shows from the US/UK?

Mossy Monk

i dont think Elmo is suggesting that TG4 increase its US programming but is demoinstrating how much these shows would cost

BrianD

it's a clever strategy - use these shows to reel in viewers and then get them to stay for more. In fairness, TG4 will never be able to provide a full 24 hours of original Irish language programming. Nor does the station want to be stuck in a niche like RnaG was for years. These english language shows allow to appeal to a broader audience, increase viewership and generate advertising revenue that can be used to fund original and Irish language programming.

bk

Elmo wrote:

E4, Discovery, CNBC, Sky One, Sky News, Nick/Paramount and MTV. None of which get "excellent" viewer ratings. They are at about 2% each.

Actually viewership figures of about 2% is actually very good for non terrestial, cable channels. While figures aren't availalbe for Ireland, in the UK, with the exception of CNBC, each of the channels listed above is the leader in it's category.

E4, Sky One are the number 1 and 2 (respectively) highest rated non terrestial channels.

Discovery is the number one documentary channel.

Sky News is the number one news channel.

Nick is the number one childrens channel.

Para is the number one comedy channel.

MTV is the number one music channel.

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewingsummary/monthreports.cfm?report=monthgmulti

So basically NTL is giving you the top rated channel in each category of popular TV that people might be interested in. Thus having something for everyone. I think this is excellent work by NTL and shows a very strong and well varied line up on NTL analogue. In fact it is so good, it is one of the major reasons why so many people haven't bothered to go digital.

Elmo wrote:

If people want E4, Discovery, CNBC, Sky One, Sky News, Nick/Paramount and MTV then the should "GO Digital".

But people want these channels, but yet don't want to "Go Digital" remember you need to have an extra box for each TV, this is a big disadvantage of digital specially in a lot of rented accomodation around Dublin. NTL know that if they dumped these channels they would simply lose a lot of customers to Sky, as Chorus already has. NTL are a business, not a charity.

Elmo wrote:

I don't see why an Irish company couldn't provide what E4, MTV, NICK, Paramount or Sky One provide and make money.

But what would be the point, the channels would end up with the exact same UK/US content, there would be no Irish content, most of the money would still go to the UK/US to buy the content and at the most the stations could only employ about 2 or 3 people and that would be best case scenario. In fact I don't think it would even be economically viable at that, at the moment we benefit from the size of the UK market.

From your comments I see that you just have some sort of irrational hatred for the UK, I really don't see what the point would be.

I would much prefer to see more money being spent on Irish made content by "ITV Ireland" and RTE rather then just making faxsimiles of UK cable channels. We already have enough channels, we just need more Irish content on them.

Elmo

Actually viewership figures of about 2% is actually very good for non terrestial, cable channels. While figures aren't availalbe for Ireland, in the UK, with the exception of CNBC, each of the channels listed above is the leader in it's category.

Yes those figure are available.

And I will agree with you that 2% is very good for this type of channel. However they don't lead in Ireland for non-national terristerial TV, no that goes to the main british TV channels BBC1, 2, ITV and C4.

Top British/Cable/Digital TV Channels in Ireland

Source: www.medialive.ie

Figures are for Multi-channel viewers and exclude 4TV land viewers.

1. All other TV 14.9%
2. BBC 1 8.4%
3. UTV 8.2%
4. C4 5.3%
5. BBC 2 4.8%
6. Sky 1 2.9%
7. Sky News 1.7%
8. E4 1.7%
9. MTV/Sky Sports 1 1.4%
10. Nick/Sky Sports 2 0.8%

Total: 48.4%

Currently in Britian Viewers are moving towards BBC and ITV channels. BBC News out did both Sky and ITN for its coverage of Katherina.

Nick will continue to have stiff competition with CBBC and Cbeebies and more competition soon in britian with CITV, note that you have to pay for nick the others are FTA.

How many comedy channels are their? 3?

E4 moved to Freeview as competition from ITV2, ITV3 and BBC3 continues to increase.

So basically NTL is giving you the top rated channel in each category of popular TV that people might be interested in.

What works in Britain works in Ireland?

In fact I don't think it would even be economically viable at that, at the moment we benefit from the size of the UK market.

Yes but only with add on channels. Which provide no (or little) Irish content.

Economically it would be viable to replace at least Sky One, E4, MTV and Nick with the 4 Irish Channels getting around 8% of the TV audience.

Again refering back to TG4's aquired programming 2.5million is spent on Foreign Imports (including Cartoons and Movies). With a 3% share TG4 makes that money back, they earn 3.5million from advertising revenue.

The proof will lie with C6 and Setanta Sports.

only employ about 2 or 3 people and that would be best case scenario

No since you would still have requirement from the BCI. You would also have to employ sales people to sell adds, presenters to intoduce programmes, people to make sure programmes have adds in the correct place. etc etc. 1 or 2 people don't make up E4 which consist mainly of american imports.

From your comments I see that you just have some sort of irrational hatred for the UK, I really don't see what the point would be.

If I had an irrational hatred of the UK it would possible because "they tryed to take over the world" :rolleyes: (sarcastic people). But I would like to see in what I said where that might come across?

It is not good that so much Irish TV money goes to the UK more Irish money goes to the UK towards TV then remains in Ireland that is not good for the Irish TV industry.

I would much prefer to see more money being spent on Irish made content by "ITV Ireland" and RTE rather then just making faxsimiles of UK cable channels.

I agree with you.

We already have enough channels, we just need more Irish content on them

Again I agree with you but since we have the choice to watch British and Amercian TV the Four Irish channels will have to fight very hard to hold on to Irish Viewers and they are find that more and more difficult as Ireland continues to have more Foreign choice.

As Rick Hethering (TV3 CEO) said TV3 could always broadcast from the UK into Ireland, for go any requirments of the Irish Licence and continue to make good money.

IMO

If RTE get more channels through digital they should continue to make sure RTE 1 and 2 has the majority of Irish Productions and provide 2 strong TV channels. The same goes for TV3 and TG4 their digital channels should only be their as add ons with most of the investment into Irish TV on their main channels.

Also remember 300 channel still nothing on. and that E4 is basically a carbon copy of Sky One no reason not to have an Irish Carbon Copy. MMMM ICC ONE

bk

Elmo wrote:

1. All other TV 14.9%
2. BBC 1 8.4%
.....

The figures you gave seem to be wrong, they are a mix of the multi-channel only figures and the national figures, the correct multi-channel only figures are:

1 RTE 1 23.3
2 RTE Network 2 9.6
3 TV3 11.1
4 TG4 2.7
5 BBC 1 8.4
6 BBC 2 4.8
7 UTV 8.2
8 CH 4 5.3
9 E 4 1.7
10 SKY 1 3.5
11 SKY News 2.1
12 SKY SPORTS 1 1.4
13 SKY SPORTS 2 0.8
14 MTV 1.4
15 Nickelodeon 0.8
16 All Other TV 14.9

Elmo wrote:

What works in Britain works in Ireland?

Given the above figures, not only does it work in Ireland, they work even better then in the UK.

Elmo wrote:

Economically it would be viable to replace at least Sky One, E4, MTV and Nick with the 4 Irish Channels getting around 8% of the TV audience.

Nope, I disagree, that means each channel would only get about 2% of the 500,000 cable customers in Ireland, that is simply 10,000 homes. As you said yourself they would need more then 2 or 3 employees, even with reduced rights cost, I just can't see how the figures could add up.

TV3 has national coverage and they are barely making a profit.

The only way I could see this working would be if RTE or TV3 ran the channels and simply increased their staffs responsiblity to run these channels, but it wouldn't lead to the hiring of new staff and most of the money would still end up leaving Ireland to purchase UK/US content.

We would just end up with Irish branded versions of the UK channels with little or no benefit to Ireland.

Also in order to make this work you would have to force NTL to remove Sky one, news, etc. from it's analogue lineup, as these channels would simply be too much competition to the Irish channels. First of all this would probably be illegal under EU competition laws and NTL could probably tie it up for years in court and even if it was succesful, NTL would probably then lose tens if not hundreds of thousands customers to Sky, as many people do want Sky One Etc. and the channels would then end up being failures anyway.

If an Irish channel can't stand on its own against the UK channels, then it doesn't deserve to survive IMO.

Elmo wrote:

The proof will lie with C6 and Setanta Sports.

I believe Setanta will be a sucess, but not C6 and not the Dublin City Channel etc.

Elmo wrote:

If I had an irrational hatred of the UK it would possible because "they tryed to take over the world" :rolleyes: (sarcastic people). But I would like to see in what I said where that might come across?

It is not good that so much Irish TV money goes to the UK more Irish money goes to the UK towards TV then remains in Ireland that is not good for the Irish TV industry.

Because I don't believe what you propose is workable and most the money will still end up going to the UK/US for content, as you said yourself.

Elmo wrote:

As Rick Hethering (TV3 CEO) said TV3 could always broadcast from the UK into Ireland, for go any requirments of the Irish Licence and continue to make good money.

Complete BS, TV3 would lose it's transmission rights on analogue as well as losing it's favourable position on Sky Ireland and NTL and losing it's favourable bidding rights on international programming like the Champions League. TV3 would be blown away by equal competition with the likes of UTV and C4.

Anyway TV3 should hardly be held up as an example of good Irish TV, their Irish output is a joke as it is, even the imported content is extremely weak compared to just about every other channel.

I don't think what you are asking for will happen on NTL, however where it might have a chance of happening is on DTT. There should be plenty of room for a few extra channels, but I fear we will just end up with RTE+1, TV3+1, TG4+1 and Setanta, but then again you never know.

Marcopolo85

Elmo wrote:

I don't beleive this to be the case. NTL's basic package isn't all that great

the BCI could easily issue licence for Irish Channels to replace the following exisiting services:-

E4, Discovery, CNBC, Sky One, Sky News, Nick/Paramount and MTV. None of which get "excellent" viewer ratings. They are at about 2% each.

I personally don't think much of these 'viewer ratings' things. As one in a household where ther'es three teens, I can guarantee you that the aformentioned channels definitely grab WAY more than 2% - it would be more like 22%! Coupled with the ability to view in all rooms, and the selection on offer, all age groups are catered for. And I can GUARANTEE you that Discovery is highly regarded and viewed by over-35s. :rolleyes:

Antenna

Kahless wrote:

Apart from money, is there any reason why they won't switch off analog and simply replace it completely with digital? They did this with MMDS.

your not comparing like with like

With NTL analogue MMDS , encryption was used - people needed settop boxes same as digital.
with NTL analogue cable - there is no encryption on the remaining analogue channels - no need for extra equipment for multiroom viewing, no problems in the full use of VCRs, so unlike MMDS, there would be revolt if the analogue cable channels were switched off on NTL cable as of now- it would just lead to more people going to satellite as NTL would no longer have the advantage of flexibility in multiroom viewing and the use of VCRs (without the need for extra expensive equipment) for the main basic channels.

The digital settop boxes are also prone to failure - as long as there is also analogue channels - NTL cable subscribers still have that to fall back on if the digital box acts up

Elmo

Why NTL Should Replace E4, MTV, Sky One, Sky News, CNBC and Discovery with Irish Alternatives

1. Give indigenous Irish companies a chance to grow in an ever increasing competitive market before their analogue service become extinct which will be very soon.
2. Unlike Ireland the UK does not have a foreign nations TV stations competing for their viewers, the UK is bigger and can afford to broadcast into Ireland with little regard for Irish Advertising Laws, regulatory requirements etc.
3. NTL/Chorus by Law will have to carry all of Ireland FTA DTT on their networks, we should allow those stations to start up on NTL/Chorus and their Maximum Reach should be given to Irish stations before Foreign stations.

E4 Ratings

4.1million Irish viewers tune into the TV any given night. The maximum. E4 has access to 2.5million of these viewers. The number of teenagers in Ireland is around 600,000 (est), again E4 will only have access to around 400,000(est) of these, this means that over all that E4 if it was to get its maximum number of viewers it would have a 10% audience share. We can say that not all of the 400,000 teenagers that have access to E4 actually will watch E4 together therefore E4 will probably only get 10% of their maximum viewers. Which will give them a grand total of 40,000 viewers which works out at only 1% of the total viewers available on any given night.

E4’s top show got last month got 20,000 viewers (Big Brother), however I am sure not all 20,000 viewers where in their teens. But their share of the viewers would be around 2% meaning that 2,000,000 viewers where watching TV on Friday 12 August during Big Brother.

Personally I like E4 I think it is a good add on channel but other then that I would not be interested in watching it. Also they may well increase their viewers as Sky One becomes less popular. And I agree that E4 possible gets more viewers in Ireland, I am just giving an explanation.

E4 can earn 4million without paying any VAT to the Irish Tax man.

As for Discovery, I honestly don’t get the fascination with that channel I always preferred National Geographic.


TV3 Not Making A Profit

TV3 gets 14% of the total national viewers. RTE TWO get 10%. RTE TWO made 26.6million on advertising. With this I can only assume that TV3 made 37million in revenue. They spent 7million on staffing. 14million went to Canwest and ITV for Dividends and the rest is spent on programming from ITV and abroad, giving them 16million for imports and UFEA rights. (RTE spend 25,000,000 for all of its imports). If ITV and Canwest wanted they could invest a lot more money into Irish TV. (As Could RTE).

Analogue and Digital Networks

To allow four Irish TV channels take over from the current selection of TV channels on NTL would not rock the boat. I am not asking that Sky One be replaced by some strange channel but an Irish Version of Sky One based in Ireland. The same goes for MTV, Sky News, E4. (Again I think we would rock the boat if we got rid of BBC 1, 2, UTV and C4). We should not stop Irish Companies enter the market, that would total go against any EU competition Law.

I actually think there is a lot more space on NTL analogue then they let on, they seemed to be able to let Setanta Sport on the analogue service without disrupting other channels. So perhaps 4 new Irish Cable channels could compete with Foreign channels and if the fail then they failed. Eventually they will have to compete with their British counter parts plus any new channels RTE, TV3 and TG4 throw at us lets hope its not just a Plus 1. I don’t see why RTE Sport couldn’t compete with Setanta Sport or for that matter and other Indigenous sporting channel.

Digger

TV3 gets 14% of the total national viewers.

They are all Coronation Street and Emmerdale viewers. Sad.

Digger

bazzer wrote:

I think City Channel are committing commercial suicide by not being available on Dublin analogue. The potential audience of those who will wait until the last possible moment to convert to digital (and I can't see any incentive to do that at present) is just too large to ignore.

I agree. City Channel will fail, unfortunately. The market in Ireland on Digital cable is too small at the moment. When will these people learn. Everyone wants to "get into TV".

Marcopolo85

Why NTL Should NOT Replace E4, MTV, Sky One, Sky News, CNBC and Discovery with Irish Alternatives

1. We are paying to be entertained, not fund start-up ventures, which will eventually end up being owned by some Irish mega-entrepeneur, which has already happened in other countries, such as Italy.

2. As I have said previously, channels such as Sky One, MTV, E4 and Discovery enjoy HUGE popularity amongst the young.

3. Are these viewing figures accurate? I think not. How many of the younger population would even punch the correct codes into a TAM machine (if they're still basically the same)? Or even participate in a door to door MRBI survery ("Dad"...........someone at the door/on the phone, etc).

4. We have a dedicated Irish language channel at the minute, and yet we still have Irish news broadcasts on RTE1/2??!! When S4C started in Wales, ALL of the Welsh content was transferred to it - no exceptions.

What is aspired to in the previous posts is a lovely principle. Much like a concept car they will cost a fortune, never be used, and end up a curiosity piece. I for one think NTL have an excellent analogue cable selection. I wouldn't touch it. There's something in there for everyone.

Elmo

1. We are paying to be entertained, not fund start-up ventures, which will eventually end up being owned by some Irish mega-entrepeneur, which has already happened in other countries, such as Italy.

You would not be giving any money to anyone other then NTL/Sky/Chorus.

and where does Rupert Murdock "live" and who cares? But I take your point Mr. D. O'Brien has his hand in most of the local radio stations in Dublin. Pity we don't get foreign station's instead.

2. As I have said previously, channels such as Sky One, MTV, E4 and Discovery enjoy HUGE popularity amongst the young.

Whats to say that Irish Versions of these channels would not be as "entertaining"?

3. Are these viewing figures accurate? I think not.

As accurate a measurement we can get. The system used by AC Neilsen (not TAM) is used all over the world however "foreign" channels do wish to change the current scope of the viewers researched, as the feel that they to not represent all veiwers in multichannel land. If you consider Young viewers teenagers you have to remember that teenagers are not in a majority.

How many of the younger population would even punch the correct codes into a TAM machine (if they're still basically the same)

I am sure young people know far more about it then "DADDY AND MAMMY".

4. We have a dedicated Irish language channel at the minute, and yet we still have Irish news broadcasts on RTE1/2??!! When S4C started in Wales, ALL of the Welsh content was transferred to it - no exceptions.

What where did this come out of? We are not a talking about Irish Lanuage Content on RTE 1, what Irish lanuage content is on RTE 2? But I agree with you, but totally off topic.

What is aspired to in the previous posts is a lovely principle. Much like a concept car they will cost a fortune, never be used, and end up a curiosity piece.

I don't see why it's not viable, if its not viable then let the new Channels fail, I amn't excepting that we all switch over just because they are "irish" what I am expecting is that we give new Irish Channels a chance before we totally get rid of the idea.

I for one think NTL have an excellent analogue cable selection.

And that selection won't change since they have so much "selection" on Digital.

There's something in there for everyone.

Replacing Sky One with an Irish channel which would do the same as what Sky One does would not change that in anyway it would just provide some more irish content and more content on Digital. Who's to say it wouldn't work if you don't give it a chance, if these channels become a novelty peice then the will fail and that will be that life goes on and we learn and we prehaps try again.

I agree. City Channel will fail, unfortunately. The market in Ireland on Digital cable is too small at the moment.

Well lets hope your not eating your words in a few years time. Give it a chance before you knock it. But it is a pity that they aren't taking over from the link channel on NTL Basic.

They are all Coronation Street and Emmerdale viewers

Yeah TV3 relies heavely on ITV shows.

Marcopolo85

Elmo wrote:

I don't see why it's not viable, if its not viable then let the new Channels fail, I amn't excepting that we all switch over just because they are "irish" what I am expecting is that we give new Irish Channels a chance before we totally get rid of the idea.

Broadcasting, my friend, is about success - not failure. And I would not like to see ANY company (NTL included) have to participate in an experiment to see if 'Irish' channels could succeed.

You can quote AC Nielsen/TAM, etc, but I would recommend to you to have a chat with a cross-section of your friends, relations, neighbours, etc and cut through the BS to see what the organ grinder really likes.

You will find that it can be a lot different than some surveys reflect. I don't necessarly disagree with the concept of your idea. I just don't like the idea of a minority opinion interfering with what I, and the rest of the majority, thoroughly enjoy on a daily basis.

Guy:Incognito

Mossy Monk wrote:

they will turn it off at some stage but it wont be for a good few years i'd imagine

The basic cable is €20 a month and the basic digital is €10. Since the 15 basic ones are on digital aswell, surely they could give everyone a digital box and just charge them the €20, and so cur off analogue altogether without anyone paying extra.

bk

Stekelly wrote:

The basic cable is €20 a month and the basic digital is €10. Since the 15 basic ones are on digital aswell, surely they could give everyone a digital box and just charge them the €20, and so cur off analogue altogether without anyone paying extra.

They could, but they won't, they would lose a very large percentage of their customers and have a massive backlash from cutomers that could even get political very fast.

What you have to remember, the analogue service can be watched without a decoder box. That means you can run as many TV's/VCR's/PVR's off the service at no extra cost. This is particularly handy in rented accomodation or for people with big families.

Digital on the other hand needs an extra box for each TV/VCR, each box requires an extra €5 per month. Things could get expensive for many people.

At the moment the capabilty of analogue to run multiple devices is a major advantage and selling point over Sky. Take it away and many people would leave NTL for Sky with it's greater channel lineup, better picture and sound quality, excellent Sky+ PVR and soon a HD service.

Elmo

Broadcasting, my friend, is about success - not failure. And I would not like to see ANY company (NTL included) have to participate in an experiment to see if 'Irish' channels could succeed.

That must be why it took them so long to find a replacement for Centry Radio when it Failed.

Broadcasting my friend is like any other business you either fail or you succeed.

With that kind of attituded nothing would ever be done.

ITV Digital failed and other ventures. If you fail you try again, get back on that horse.

I just don't like the idea of a minority opinion interfering with what I, and the rest of the majority, thoroughly enjoy on a daily basis.

E4 and Sky One are flick in flick out channels and from talking to people thats how they treat them while the other channels get their attention.
These channels don't have certain genre types that attract large viewers which the main channels rely on. i.e. Sport, News and Soap.

Where you watching LOST?

bk

Elmo wrote:

With that kind of attituded nothing would ever be done.

ITV Digital failed and other ventures. If you fail you try again, get back on that horse.

I think the point is that, no one would have any objection to new channel been setup, we only object to them being forced upon NTL and by extension their customers. It would be the heavy handed government intervention of the bad old days.

Instead the channels should have to prove themselves to NTL and it should be left to NTL to decide to carry them or not. Why should NTL surfer from other companies experiments?

Elmo wrote:

E4 and Sky One are flick in flick out channels and from talking to people thats how they treat them while the other channels get their attention.
These channels don't have certain genre types that attract large viewers which the main channels rely on. i.e. Sport, News and Soap.

On the contrary these channels are highly targeted and themed towards a certain audience segments. E4 is targeted towards females in the 15 - 35 caetgory, while Sky One is targeted at males in the 15 - 35 category. These are very valuable market segements and it is reflected in the advertising they carry.

In the end it isn't worth talking about because it just isn't going to happen.

Where it might happen is on DTT, there should be plenty of space for new channels on it. If there are successful there and there is a demand for them, then I'm sure NTL would carry them.

Marcopolo85

bk wrote:

I think the point is that, no one would have any objection to new channel been setup, we only object to them being forced upon NTL and by extension their customers. It would be the heavy handed government intervention of the bad old days.

Instead the channels should have to prove themselves to NTL and it should be left to NTL to decide to carry them or not. Why should NTL surfer from other companies experiments?



On the contrary these channels are highly targeted and themed towards a certain audience segments. E4 is targeted towards females in the 15 - 35 caetgory, while Sky One is targeted at males in the 15 - 35 category. These are very valuable market segements and it is reflected in the advertising they carry.

In the end it isn't worth talking about because it just isn't going to happen.

Where it might happen is on DTT, there should be plenty of space for new channels on it. If there are successful there and there is a demand for them, then I'm sure NTL would carry them.

Very well put. Got it in one.

Elmo

What if NTL/Chorus change the channels as follows?

1. E4 to change with ITV3
2. Sky News to change with BBC News 24
3. Sky One to change with FIVE
4. Discovery to change with National Geographic
5. Nick to change with Boomerrang
6. Paramount to change with Comedy Central
7. CNBC to change with Bloomberg
8. EuroMix to change with TV5
9. MTV to change with TMF

How would you feel then?

Reason for changing, each of the channels are cheaper to buy in.

Reasons to change to Irish channels might be

1. They might actually pay for the use of the NTL/Chorus networks
2. No need to buy the stations to put them on the Network

Also if Irish DTT comes along NTL/Chorus would be obliged to put each new channel on their network, just as they are obliged to put RTE ONE, RTE TWO, TV3 and TG4 on their networks. Sky have no obligations.

bk

Elmo wrote:

What if NTL/Chorus change the channels as follows?

1. E4 to change with ITV3
2. Sky News to change with BBC News 24
3. Sky One to change with FIVE
4. Discovery to change with National Geographic
5. Nick to change with Boomerrang
6. Paramount to change with Comedy Central
7. CNBC to change with Bloomberg
8. EuroMix to change with TV5
9. MTV to change with TMF

How would you feel then?

Pretty pissed, each of those channels are pretty crap compared to the existing ones. This is reflected in their low viewership figures on digital.

BTW NatGeo isn't really a documentary channel anymore, it carries lots of movies and other non documentary junk, so it wouldn't be a replacement for Discovery.

BBTW EuroMix isn't on NTL Dublin analogue line up.

BBBTW BBC News doesn't carry any Irish content unlike Sky News which carries one hour a day. Which is crap BTW and actually gets lower viewership figures then regular Sky News, which sort of blows your argument about people prefering Irish delivered content over UK content out of the water.

Elmo wrote:

Reason for changing, each of the channels are cheaper to buy in.

But NTL need to balance cost with popularity. If a channel costs too much then they won't carry it, however, also if the channel doesn't draw viewers or add value to the line-up, even if it is very cheap, they still won't carry it.

I don't get why you brought this up at all?

Elmo wrote:

Reasons to change to Irish channels might be

1. They might actually pay for the use of the NTL/Chorus networks

But whatever they pay (very little) wouldn't offset the cost of lost customers from NTL to Sky because people want the UK channels.

Elmo wrote:

2. No need to buy the stations to put them on the Network

NTL doesn't buy stations to put them on the network, it simply pays a license fee to do so and likely any Irish channels would look for the same.

Elmo wrote:

Also if Irish DTT comes along NTL/Chorus would be obliged to put each new channel on their network, just as they are obliged to put RTE ONE, RTE TWO, TV3 and TG4 on their networks. Sky have no obligations.

Not true, no legislation has been put forward yet about DTT. At the moment NTL only have to carry the national "analogue" channels. It is likely new legislation will have to be drawn up for DTT and I expect that NTL will only be required to carry the other channels on Digital.

Personally I'd much prefer if the UK channels like C4, E4, etc. turned up on Irish DTT, however it is unfortunately unlikely to happen.

You just don't seem to get it, Irish people want and like the UK channels, Irish people don't want crappy, inferior Irish versions of the UK channels. NTL is a business, NTL will give the customers what they want. Irish versions of UK channels carrying only foreign imports will be of zero benefit to Ireland. End of story.

Elmo

You just don't seem to get it, Irish people want and like the UK channels, Irish people don't want crappy, inferior Irish versions of the UK channels. NTL is a business, NTL will give the customers what they want. Irish versions of UK channels carrying only foreign imports will be of zero benefit to Ireland. End of story.

Ah the aul irish inferiority complex.

BBBTW BBC News doesn't carry any Irish content unlike Sky News which carries one hour a day. Which is crap BTW and actually gets lower viewership figures then regular Sky News, which sort of blows your argument about people prefering Irish delivered content over UK content out of the water.

Sky News Ireland is a lip service for the irish public. :rolleyes: It is basically Sky News UK rapped up with one or two stories from Ireland.

bk

Elmo wrote:

Sky News Ireland is a lip service for the irish public. :rolleyes: It is basically Sky News UK rapped up with one or two stories from Ireland.

Yes and yet it would have more Irish content then these new "Irish" channels you are proposing.

As you yourself have agreed, because of their low potential viewership figures, they would need to import 100% of their content from the UK and US, just like Sky One and E4. So at best you would be giving a few extra technicians and a program planner a job, the majority of the money would still go to buying foreign imports. So what would the point be?

Our time would be better spent promoting more Irish content on the exisitng channels, then creating cheap and crap knock offs of UK channels who already give their target markets what they want.

Marcopolo85

Elmo wrote:

Ah the aul irish inferiority complex.

Elmo wrote:

OK........so you deduce that because we like a superior product that we feel inferior?? I'm glad you're not the film censor!! We'd be watching endless reruns of Peig and Waiting for Godot!!

Sky News Ireland is a lip service for the irish public. :rolleyes: It is basically Sky News UK rapped up with one or two stories from Ireland.

But it's still way better, and far more professional, than that crap BBC News 24. :rolleyes:

Elmo

But it's still way better, and far more professional, than that crap BBC News 24.

Ehh no! Sky News does even come close to BBC News 24.

Yes and yet it would have more Irish content then these new "Irish" channels you are proposing.

Sales People
Graphic Designers
Continunity Annoucers
Presenters
Editors
Camera People
Lighting People
etc.

Would all have to be employed, they would have to pay taxes and VAT, they would have to pay a licence for their service and perhaps would have to pay for the network the use.

All of this means money running around the Irish Economy, even if the majority of programmes that they show are British or American. (E4 is benifical to the UK's economy for all of those reasons).

Its all about Money money money and at the end of the day your better of with 10 mini Rupert Murdocks then One big one.

bk

Elmo wrote:

Ehh no! Sky News does even come close to BBC News 24.

Sales People
Graphic Designers
Continunity Annoucers
Presenters
Editors
Camera People
Lighting People
etc.

Would all have to be employed, they would have to pay taxes and VAT, they would have to pay a licence for their service and perhaps would have to pay for the network the use.

There are no Continunity Annoucers, Presenters, Editors, Camera People or
Lighting People on E4 or most of the other cable channels. They simply buy in prepackaged conten and play it.

So basically you would only have a MD, an ads sales person, programmer purchaser/planner and a couple of technicians to run the channel, swap tapes, etc.

BTW Graphic Design work is usually contracted out, you only change your look once or twice a year.

Even at that I don't believe 4% viewership figures of just cable customers in Ireland would be enough to support that many staff. It might work if just one company ran 4 or 5 of the channels (kids, sports, docs, entertainment, music) and the same staff was used to run all 4 or 5 channelse or if RTE or TV3 ran the channels with their current staff, then it *might* be feasible.

But it really wouldn't add that much to Ireland in tax take.

Marcopolo85

bk wrote:

There are no Continunity Annoucers, Presenters, Editors, Camera People or
Lighting People on E4 or most of the other cable channels. They simply buy in prepackaged conten and play it.

So basically you would only have a MD, an ads sales person, programmer purchaser/planner and a couple of technicians to run the channel, swap tapes, etc.

BTW Graphic Design work is usually contracted out, you only change your look once or twice a year.

Even at that I don't believe 4% viewership figures of just cable customers in Ireland would be enough to support that many staff. It might work if just one company ran 4 or 5 of the channels (kids, sports, docs, entertainment, music) and the same staff was used to run all 4 or 5 channelse or if RTE or TV3 ran the channels with their current staff, then it *might* be feasible.

But it really wouldn't add that much to Ireland in tax take.

Nail hit precisely on the head :eek:

Mossy Monk

Marcopolo85 wrote:

But it's still way better, and far more professional, than that crap BBC News 24. :rolleyes:

:eek: Sky News better than BBC News 24? perhaps if you read the Sun. Sky News is over hyped bollocks

Elmo

BTW Graphic Design work is usually contracted out, you only change your look once or twice a year.

Spin off industries

But it really wouldn't add that much to Ireland in tax take.

Well currently those foreign channels take 50million away in advertising revenue. Which they don't need to use to even by in programming because there budgets are set for the British audience.

Thats alot of money which could be taxed.

"every little helps".

Even sky are helping by having sky news Ireland. That 3million euros wow. :rolleyes:

SPDUB

Stekelly wrote:

The basic cable is €20 a month and the basic digital is €10. Since the 15 basic ones are on digital aswell, surely they could give everyone a digital box and just charge them the €20, and so cur off analogue altogether without anyone paying extra.

That's not possible in this part of Dublin as they still haven't upgraded the area I live in so it's analogue or nothing.

Marcopolo85

Stekelly wrote:

The basic cable is €20 a month and the basic digital is €10. Since the 15 basic ones are on digital aswell, surely they could give everyone a digital box and just charge them the €20, and so cut off analogue altogether without anyone paying extra.

This thread originally started with a quote about commercial suicide. Let's see - NTL withdraw analogue (which allows their 350,000 access to 15 TV channels at the same time in different rooms on different TVs) and replace this with ONE digital box. I don't think so! No doubt some government (or circumstances) in the future will dictate the removal of analogue, but I can't see it happening at this junction. :eek:

Elmo

I don't think so! No doubt some government (or circumstances) in the future will dictate the removal of analogue, but I can't see it happening at this junction.

Eventually even if the government doesn't agree with NTL/Chorus getting rid of Analogue NTL/Chorus will get rid of Analogue. NTL/Chorus may just roll out their Digital basic package at no additional cost to the customer and the slowly remove Analogue.

Do NTL/Chorus not have certain quotes to reach from ComReg in regards their role out of Digital?

That's not possible in this part of Dublin as they still haven't upgraded the area I live in so it's analogue or nothing

Get Sky!

But comreg definately want access to NTL/Chorus Digital for everyone in the areas where NTL/Chorus is available.

Marcopolo85

Elmo wrote:

NTL/Chorus may just roll out their Digital basic package at no additional cost to the customer and the slowly remove Analogue.

Elmo - come into the real world! You are propagating opinions which hold no sway in the mainstream. Reality is that people want analogue to continue, with the added pleasurable option of digital being available if they so desire.

I'm glad you're not running NTL or Chorus. They'd be closed in six months!

bk

Elmo wrote:

Eventually even if the government doesn't agree with NTL/Chorus getting rid of Analogue NTL/Chorus will get rid of Analogue. NTL/Chorus may just roll out their Digital basic package at no additional cost to the customer and the slowly remove Analogue.

I wouldn't hold my breath, they won't turn off analogue for many years yet.

It is simply too popular, while there isn't any technical reason why they would need to turn it off. With the advances in encoding (MPEG4) allowing more channels or HD channels to be fit into the same space and the imporvement of the network up to ~800 Mhz possible, then they have plenty of space for it.

Don't expect analogue to be switched off for at least 5 years.

Elmo

Don't expect analogue to be switched off for at least 5 years.

Five years isn't all that long.

In relation to City Channel this article from the Sunday Times
_________________________________________________________________
Dublin’s City Channel goes live — and straight into profit

DAVID HARVEY is confident that his new City Channel local television station will turn a tidy profit in its first year on air. The station, which will target the greater Dublin area initially, goes live on Tuesday on NTL’s digital platform. Harvey says it has booked €1m worth of advertising while its costs will be in the region of €750,000. Harvey and 12 other individuals are backing the station.

About half the programming will be bought in and the balance produced in-house. Presenters will include ex-Big Brother contestant Ray Shah; Cliona O’Donoghue, property editor with the Irish Independent; and Orlaith Rafter, an actress in Fair City. Harvey also plans to run programming for foreigners at off-peak times. Expect programmes aimed at the Polish, Russian, Filipino and Latvian communities.

Plans are also afoot to launch parallel channels in Galway and Waterford. The Dublin channel will be available to about 100,000 NTL digital subscribers in the capital and neighbouring counties on channel 123. With the cable company adding about 5,000 new subscriptions a month, its audience could be set for rapid growth.
_________________________________________________________________

I personnally don't like the idea of Cheap Local TV I would prefer if it was a national station and that all stations would be national. But then why should my point of view stop people trying.

Elmo

Elmo - come into the real world! You are propagating opinions which hold no sway in the mainstream. Reality is that people want analogue to continue, with the added pleasurable option of digital being available if they so desire.

You will find in this unrealistic world that I live in soon you won't be able to get analogue TV's. I give it 10 more years before all TV are digital. No need for Set top boxes. But perhaps I am wrong, Manufactures seem to be slow to issue Digital TV's and DVD:RW. :mad:

Ulsterman 1690

One reason for not taking off the analouge feeds on some channels is that until video recorder's with digital tuners become widely available a major selling point for cable (over $ky) is the ability to timeshift channels.

This is a big deal for a lot of people (especially those who work unusual hours).

As for replacing UK channels with "Irish" ones whats the point since (even in the unlikely event that the Irish market can support many more channels) most/all of the programme content would come from abroad (and largely be duplicating programming thats already being provided on UK channels) and indeed most of the channels themselves would probably end up being owned by overseas investors (Is TV3 not largely owned by Canadian and UK interests) ?

I could be wrong but I suspect that bare simple xenophobia (or more specifically anglophobia) is the underlying motivation behind a lot of the posts on this thread -especially those where posters wont even extend the courtesy of using a capital letter to describe the nationality of their Eastern and Northern neighbours :mad:

Elmo

I could be wrong but I suspect that bare simple xenophobia (or more specifically anglophobia) is the underlying motivation behind a lot of the posts on this thread -especially those where posters wont even extend the courtesy of using a capital letter to describe the nationality of their Eastern and Northern neighbours

This is not the case. I would feel the same about American channels broadcasting in Ireland as would many British TV channels if American Channels start direct broadcasts into the UK.

However when will RTE, TV3 and TG4 be on NTL/Telewest/Sky in Britain? Oh wait they might start advertising to a british audience and then they would be taking VAT and other revenue out of that country.

ITV and Canwest while taking alot of money away from Ireland provide alot of money into Ireland.

Apoligies for not capitalising country names I hadn't thought about it.

Marcopolo85

Elmo wrote:

ITV and Canwest while taking alot of money away from Ireland provide alot of money into Ireland.

So you agree with 'foreign programming' today? :eek:

Ulsterman 1690

Apology accepted and I withdraw the xenophobia comment

Its not unusual though for a small country neighbouring on a larger country sharing a common language to import a lot of the neighbouring countries TV channels. Take Germany for example where several of their TV networks are distributed in Austria, Switzerland Lichtenstein and even parts of Northern Italy (where there are German speaking enclaves)

On the other hand of course theres RTL which transmits INTO Germany from a (much) smaller neighbour (Because for a long time there were no independent commercial networks in Germany)

Elmo

So you agree with 'foreign programming' today?

No what I am saying is that TV3 provide jobs to 177 people. While It's not much its better then Nothing.

I personnel like American Programming. I have to say British TV hasn't been as good as it used to be. ITV keep trying to recreate Cracker and Prime Suspect.

I watch some British TV but not much. I know I don't follow and British TV series. but the BBC and C4 have some very good shows.

Drama wise its just Soap coming from Britian.

Waking the Dead is good. Much better the Cold Case. IMO.

cdc

Elmo wrote:

However when will RTE, TV3 and TG4 be on NTL/Telewest/Sky in Britain? Oh wait they might start advertising to a british audience and then they would be taking VAT and other revenue out of that country.

If the Brits had RTÉ they would get the odd free Man Utd match. That would not be on.

One big disadvantage with the Anglophone dominance here is that the 'Sport must be paid for' attitude is prevalent.

_Kaiser_

NTL (then Cablelink) got rid of the main UK channels (Sky One, Sky News, MTV as well I think and there was another one that went too I think?) in the early 90s when they had a spat with Sky over carriage fees... this went on for about a year.

I remember there being a lot of annoyed subscribers out there, articles in the paper and eventually Cablelink were forced to pay up and restore the channels to the analogue service.

I'd say the same thing would happen if they tried it again today..except this time people would be quicker to just get Sky directly.

It was very expensive in those days, but it was the first thing I bought when I started my first "proper" job .. reason: more choice AND better value for money. Pay Sky 30 quid and get everything, or pay Cablelink the same and get only 5/6 extra channels, and then usually long after they were available on satellite (eg: Sky Movies Gold).