Gun Self Defence Various Thoughts

Millionaire

Hi Guys

There quite a bit of KM training (especially in more advanced levels) devoted to defending against gun attacks. everything from a pistol hold up to defence aganist assault rifles, hostages held at gun point etc etc. Obviously been a military systems, this has to be an important part of it, and since its was developed in Israel, to this day , I reckon 50% of people in the street are packing a gun. walk down any street in Israel and you will be amazed at who is armed.

You see off duty soldiers , 18 year old army girls off duty out at the shopping mall buying Britney Spears CDs with an assault rifle strapped on. Gilla rifle..very simplar to M16. even bouncers carry pistols.

Initally when I started KM, I thought to myself, whats the point of learning to defend against guns, its not an issue here. Naturally reading the papers each day it is becoming, gun attacks, a bigger and bigger problem. So maybe it is good to know?

I did alot of practice taking pistols of people (the israelis tried and tested the techniques with simulition, to refine the moves) though obviously these techniques can be life or death for the defender when gun is involved. We trained with blue guns which are balanced and weighted like a live pistol.

anyway after alot of practice , I said to myself (and I have shot before) to make the training more real, I need to remind myself on guns. So for a week each night I went to the range and fired many many rounds on automatics (colt 45)and revolver (S & w38) to get the feel, touch and visual experience abd think about it in relation to self defence.

God forbid , it it ever had to be done, taking a live gun off someone would be a very very serious experience.

and further more after 100s of rounds fired per night, it reinforced in my mind, how dangerous guns are, in fact thinking about it is frightening.

I think today with ireland become more violent , and foreign criminal gangs coming, that sadly we are going to start to see more and more gun crime against the innocent person in the street. and no matter how hard we train, to disarm with out injury or death IMO , its a 50 50 chance.

ANy thoughs anyone on this thread?

G

john kavanagh

my thoughts on it would be simple. if someone wants to shoot/stab you then they come up behind you and BAM - end of. if they stick the weapon in your face looking for valuables, they're welcome to them.
in the incredibly small probability of someone pulling a weapon on me with the pure intent on killing me (not looking for valuables or just creeping up on me and getting it over with) then i'd imagine with the amount of adrenaline that would explode into my system it'd be just 'go instinct' time.
personally i couldn't be bothered practicing with a weapon day in day out for some hypothetical attack that has a very small chance of happening - its also not a mind set i'd like to have

just my $0.02

Dyr

I was threatened by multiple heads with golf clubs a while back, ten minutes ago one of the same lot fired a bottle rocket through my open front door. Luckily random gun crime is very rare in ireland but they do find alternatives it seems :mad: . Most of the gun deaths in Ireland have been criminals killing criminals. Even though that's rising us ordinary joe's havent got much to worry about guns yet

I think it's very likely that a toe rag will be hefting a tool if he decides to hurt someone, weapons and the premeditated intent to hurt go hand in hand, Humans instinctively know the advantage that a weapon gives them. Thats the reality of our evolution.

How much time you spend worrying about it though is another thing. As JK said, someone if really wants to target you in particular, you'll probably never see it coming.

dlofnep

A: Not something you'd need in Ireland.
B: If someone wants to shoot you, I don't think you'd be able to stop them.

BrianD3

Gun self defence = shoot the attacker with your own gun first. Talk of "disarming" a gunman with your bare hands using some techniques you learnt in a self defence course is madness if you ask me.

Trying to take a gun off someone - how can anyone even contemplate this? Taking a knife off an attacker without getting hurt is bad enough and there is a world of difference between a gun and a knife.

Millionaire

I know of two people, ordinary joes, that have been held up with guns in dublin. one robbed in sandymount. I would not believe when I heard but its true. and i 've come across it once in the USA , when I was knocking about miami for a while.

yeah its madness trying to take a gun away , but if life depended on it...

I do think its only going to be a matter of time before we will see more of this type of gun crime in ireland. sadly.

the_syco

dlofnep wrote:

B: If someone wants to shoot you, I don't think you'd be able to stop them.

Someone comes up, says that you stole his girlfriend(possible stalker, etc), whips the gun out, and points it at your face/body. Are you gonna take it like a smuck? Or are you gonna try take the gun off him, to prevent yourself from getting killed?

Oh, and if you know where the gun is, don't take your eyes off his eyes. A basic mistake that people make is to look at the gun. The attacker will also look at the gun, and see you reaching for the gun. If you look deep into his eyes, and grab the gun, moving it away from your body (to the right/left, or up, if its pointed at your head), you stand a small chance of the attacker being too surprised that you took the gun, to fire.

Baz_

ihatepunx wrote:

this gun looking at psycholoy?

Is that a new branch of psychology?

You have to admit, what the_syco said does make sense...

Still if someone is intent on killing/hurting you, you are very unlikely to be effective in stopping them, one tiny movement and bang, bang he shot you down. However, if they just want your valuables and don't really want to hurt you, you would be far better off handing them over and not risking your life.

As somebody said above though, if someone pulls a gun on you, you may not be able to suppress your instincts, no matter how much gun training you did.

Cake Fiend

Guns are ranged weapons. Who the hell is going to point a gun at you within arm's reach? And if someone is aiming a gun at you from 6ft away with their finger on the trigger (loaded, cocked and safety off) then how much of a chance do you give yourself to jump over and disarm them?

You have heads folks, use 'em.

dlofnep

the_syco wrote:

Someone comes up, says that you stole his girlfriend(possible stalker, etc), whips the gun out, and points it at your face/body. Are you gonna take it like a smuck? Or are you gonna try take the gun off him, to prevent yourself from getting killed?

How silly of me! I should of know better that you can just go into bullet time mode and take the gun off of him before he even knows it. My apologies.

Roper

I have to quote been in an armed robbery situation with two lads with shotguns. I felt no compunction at the time to even attempt to disarm one or both of them, nor would I ever.

If someone wants to pull the trigger, you're done IMO. I don't think there's any point in training for a scenario unless you have a reasonable chance of it occurring. Right now in Ireland the chances are slim, it's not like Israel thank God. Edged weapon, different story, I can dig why people train for this, it's just not my thing.

Like Millionaire said, when you shoot, you realise the power that the armed man has. It's fairly frightening and some people might have to ground themselves in reality by doing it instead of taking the testosterone approach.

pma-ire

The gun being a distance weapon, means that carrying is the only way to defend against it (as in your first post Millionare).

Guys that come close to you with a gun can't be smart, and may be a bit off there heads. So taking it off them must be more dangerous.

Though the training of this vould be fun. It must be kept in context.

Millionaire

its an interesting debate. remember in Israel (which thank G is not like Ireland) alot of these guys are training anti terroist unit army and police stuff, and it can and does get into total close quaters. (so they tell me, and I take their word).

Say some crack head (thinking Da hood style, but its only around the corner for ireland I think re crack cocaine and crime it brings), pulls a pistol and looks for you money, etc etc.

But I tell you , the first time ever I fire a 45 calibre both colt and glock, the bang and recoil of them would startle ya to saythe least!.

1st step is to get out of line of fire, but ater that could you imagine the shock re the bang, potential muzzel flash, and powder burn.

one international RMSD teacher, who work in international bodyguarding twice had to disarm a cqc gun attacker. he said 1st time pissed his pants with fear , even though he disarmed successful and this guy knows his stuff!!!! he tends himself to tach alot of physchlogial end of RBSD too

Baz_

ihatepunx wrote:

baz what training have you done for any type of conflict based scenario?

Although I don't see what difference it makes, as I didn't allude to any course of action other than ****ting one's pants. I'll admit I have done no gun defence training and nor would I, as I believe it would be quite a waste of time.

pearsquasher

First off the argument that if someone wants to shoot you, they'd do it sniper-style, is fine but I imagine were talking about urban civilian type gun problems where the gun is a threat more than an assasination weapon and so gun-awareness in a society where they are prevelant is prudent.

I've done a little bit myself and find it interesting from a martial arts point of view the way i find all weapons and encounters interesting and full of their own little problems. So i enjoy doing gun-retention stuff when it pops up but i don't really get paranoid that its likely to happen. The type of training done against guns can give you facinating insights into body language, distance, timing, psychology, perspectives, pre-fight conditions and all the usual stuff MA training shows up, so it can be quite interesting and it can inform your other skills. At the end of the day, real encounters involve non-physical judgement calls that should be thought about in MA training too and gun-retention training by experienced people can be very valuable to your overall skill.

The actual physical act of disarming a gun pointing at your head, is probably of lesser value here. How you got to that postion is the thing, innit?

Millionaire

pearsquasher wrote:

First off the argument that if someone wants to shoot you, they'd do it sniper-style, is fine but I imagine were talking about urban civilian type gun problems where the gun is a threat more than an assasination weapon and so gun-awareness in a society where they are prevelant is prudent.


QUOTE]

Yes thanks, this is what I was mainly refering to when I started this debate.
where the crim is using the gun as a threat, rather than trying to disarm an sas man for example.

You may not believe this but there was a studay done after WWII, and also a doocumentary on national geographic recently re what it takes to mentally to shoot some one dead (actualll John Brawn was in a segment of the doc).
Anyway they discovered that only 2% of soldiers (both sides allies and germans) aimed to kill. all the othes aimed to miss, did not fire, shot at trees etc etc. They reckoned the 2% who did kill and aimed to kill, 1% where your God loving, Flag waving, True hero type, who did it for the great good of his nation etc. They reckon the other 1% were sociopaths, who actually got a buzz and enjoyd doing it. (anyway check out the program yourself if interested on national geo, its very very interesting).

So maybe so for example your in NYC on hols, a few beer on board, and some nut, pulls a pistol to rob you, rape your girlfriend in front of you. whatever. has he the balls to shoot, or is he bluffing (these attack usually happen very close range). so do you let him do it, or do you go for it??

This is only a small % of my training anyway. do not worry I am not holed up in a bunker in rathmines waiting for WW III or anything! LOL!!!

I remember been in a very very rough club about 11 years ago off o connell st. and I was just walking in the door and someone stuck their head in door and took a shot at bouncer or something. It was quite strange really!!!luckily was had about 75 pints of larger on board so I hardly noticed. Point is it is very rare but situation is out there, and will be more so over next few years me thinks.

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

You may not believe this but there was a studay done after WWII, and also a doocumentary on national geographic recently re what it takes to mentally to shoot some one dead (actualll John Brawn was in a segment of the doc).
Anyway they discovered that only 2% of soldiers (both sides allies and germans) aimed to kill. all the othes aimed to miss, did not fire, shot at trees etc etc. They reckoned the 2% who did kill and aimed to kill, 1% where your God loving, Flag waving, True hero type, who did it for the great good of his nation etc. They reckon the other 1% were sociopaths, who actually got a buzz and enjoyd doing it. (anyway check out the program yourself if interested on national geo, its very very interesting).

It might not be the same study, but I seem to remember something about this. It was done post WWII as you said, but before the recognition of disorders such as post-traumatic stress disorder and new insights into conditions such as survivor guilt. There has been some suggestion that studies such as this might well be tainted by the subjects suffering from these (at that time) unknown conditions. There was another one post Vietnam, to be honest I'm not sure if I'm confusing the two!

As you said, it's the threat of the firearm as opposed to the actual murder element. If someone wants to kill you, you're probably not going to know anything about it.

Millionaire

Hi Roper, I think there were studies done after all the conflicts and wars and on both sides, yes you helped me remember.!! As I mentioned for people that are interested, that documentary is well worth watching.

They even interviewed brit soldiers that blew the head of argentines in falklands conflict at very close range, and some of them are still in bits today over what happened. shooting and stabbing young lads , hiding in scraped out hallows who were crying for this mums. bloody horrible.

Millionaire

if anyone is interested on the subject on defending against armed assault, knife, stick, or gun. a good KM book is "how to defend yourself against armed assault" try amazon etc.

It will explain all the ins and outs whys and whats much better than I can on here.

for the price of a few pints its worth having a look if that sort of thing is of interest.

Colm_OReilly

A similar study (in reference to nam iirc) was refered to in "The Men Who Stare At Goats".

I wouldn't take the newspapers as any indication of how crime is changing, rising/falling as it's a form of entertainment like other media and the more shocking the better (see John's thread "Gotta Love SkyOne")

Obesity is one of the leading causes of preventable death in Ireland, and it's a lot easier to combat this, how come we aren't talking about this?

Colm

PS. Just realised the above post might be taken as insulting. It's not meant to demean the current debate, but like others have posted, why expend so much time worrying about something which isn't likely to happen?

Millionaire

the thing is if you take something for granted...law of the universe...it can happen.. do not know why but it does. i am not into new age bs or anything but in my life experiences be in in running or owning business, life in general or self defence. it happens. what do you do not expect happens..believe you me.

like in other thread, I said about on 14 or 15 jul it was a friday I was in israel 1 st night. I decide to carry a wallet which i never do at night, assumed there 'd be no trouble cause everyone age 18 -21 is carrying an assault rifle 24 x 7 even when off duty in discoes etc ( and that includes the chicks..kind of kinky LOL) . i take eye off the ball and with 2 hours I get attack by 5, one of whichas I said sucker punches me blind and then smashes a beer bottle and tires to ram into my face. etc look at other thead.

Now I am 33 year old , mild mannered, hate aggression and the one night in years I do not watch me back and it happens. and as I said in other thread I am lucky I am not dead, blind or in a coma. and this were not a bar room brawl which is mild compared to what I went through..alone. so it does happen.

there is more coked up people in this city , carrying , more so than you ever imagine believe me dude.

Plane travel is the most safe from of transport ever, so why under each seat do they put lie jackets?


Look what happend Jimmy Curran. I came acriss and trained a few times with him years ago (he was under Fusoc and me under G Canning). Now I would have hated to brawled that guy, a tough dude. but look what happened.

Travers was gunned down another karate dude with a rep. Preston out in Balydole a TKD man another shot and just a slim maybe , if they knew how to disarm a weapon, mayeb one would be living.

not sure is ya are trained to shoot or not ( i got the basics just about and take every chance I get when abraod to learn more.) Most knackers with a short arm are not aiming from down the road ( their not trained to shoot) so they get in on toop of you at point blank and do the job.

domlic mcglincey said he always got in close to his man beofore shooting and by close I mean 2 feet.

as i said earlier the israeli perfect the techniques with live simulation (makes a paint ball shot look like a tickle of a feather) and for advance knife defence for seniors is done with live blades too. ..just or the record.

but fortunate in ireland I predict its going this road. and it will only be a matter of time beofore we read of another MA expert who was gunned down.

I dont worry about it at all, but I know I may have some sort chance if it happens me .

and remembertoo if ya travel aboard alot like I do , many dodgy and some less dodgy countries have free gun laws.

I wish the world was like the yellow brick road but it ain.t , sadly.

PS my info on escalting and more violent crimei in ireland was passed to us myy the cops.

as for fat people. keep that off here, Moderator...;-)

new thread for gulpins

Hey Millionaire,

In my eyes spending enough time to be able to safely disarm an armed (with a gun) attacker at short range is so low yield compared to the million other activities you could spend your time improving your quality of life and your chance of survival.

Fair enough if it's something you're interested in but I think this topic is about its usefulness for self defence so I'll base my arguments on that.

In terms of preserving your life in a multitude of situations I think things much more likely to help you get out of a bad situation include learning foreign language, eating better and exercising more so you can run, drinking less so your senses aren't dulled, meeting new friends so that you aren't walking around town alone etc.

Plane travel is the most safe from of transport ever, so why under each seat do they put lie jackets?

I'll side with Tyler Durden on this one. "Calm as Hindu cows..."

but fortunate in ireland I predict its going this road. and it will only be a matter of time beofore we read of another MA expert who was gunned down.

Currently (and for the next 20 years as far as I'm concerned) guns are unlikely to be exposed to the general public. Any use of guns tends to be as a threat (otherwise you'd be shot in the back of the skull) so in 95% of situations you do what the guy says rather than fight or disarm. But in Ireland most guncrime is confined to people who get themselves messed up in dodginess and by and large if you live a decent, lawful life you're very unlikely to get a gun pointed at you in this country. Much greater risk of a heart attack or cancer both of which can be influenced by a better lifestyle.

As for travelling abroad, I think learning the local language guarantees you a much better chance of knowing where not to go and being able to talk your way out of a situation not to mention being better able to recognise danger better.

So Millionaire.... get with the alef, beth, gimel, taleth etc... (sorry for the dodgy spelling )

Millionaire

jaysus I have a great life! believe you me!!!! LOL!!! :-) thank God. train hard mon - thurs and weekend rip it up!! LOL and charm the ladies..

certainly agree with what you say, re postive living , healthy life etc, ( man I was vegan for a while ...terrible you end up looking like someome on a Trocira Box)

I do all the positive believe you me. but unfortuantely believe you me its no good when you come face to face with a scum and that can happen anywhere.

its down to survival then my friend.

there has actually been cases in dublin of homosexual rape at gun point...even going back years ago.

christ man 20 years ago...I grew up on the border ok different than dublin and common local knowledge who had seriour hardware. thats ok down there as it was not for criminal activity but to protect the locals from the violence of the instigators of the violence.

but mate in dublin now I tell you FACT there many many packing shooters. you can get someone whacked off startin at 5000 euro.

its only going to be a matter of time, until some south side university student runs up on credit a charlie debt and get whacked.

go to Lillies some night, stay sober, keep eyes open and observe and I tell you....its a wake up call.

THats why a wee bit of gun training just just on a slim chance be a saver.

ah mate do not worry about spelling. I do not. ! lol sure with a a few degress a man does not have to prove spelling points!!!! ha ha got ya

Dyr

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Obesity is one of the leading causes of preventable death in Ireland, and it's a lot easier to combat this, how come we aren't talking about this?

Colm

Probably for the same reason we dont discuss road safety, although it's a major cause of death in ireland: Because this is the self defence forum

Millionaire

One of my point I wanted to make, that if in a situation (and I do not mean some sniper 2 miles away in the hills taking a head shot) but some nutter or crim pulling gun on close quaters. (which happens)

Is if you have totally no choice but to go for it and disarm, you manage to get out of line of fire, trap gun, and pistol discharges. between the deafening noise, the shock, the heat of the gun ( eg revolver can blow sparks back at ya, thats why you were the big skill yellow sun glasses shooting). It can be a very difficult situation to get real trainig for.

Also guns, I find are very frightening, and obviously dangerous. sometimes it take training like I am talking about and getting the chance to get onto the range, just hammers howm how dangerous they can be.

dent

Millionaire wrote:

Anyway they discovered that only 2% of soldiers (both sides allies and germans) aimed to kill. all the othes aimed to miss, did not fire, shot at trees etc etc.

As an aside but quite interesting is that mordern training techniques have got that number up to 90%. I believe that was in the same program.

Regarding the original topic I agree with most posters in that

a) Very unlikely to ever be held up with a gun
b) If someone wants to kill you will most likely never see it coming.

also I have spoken to a well respected individual in the body guard community. He said the only real chance to disarm someone of a firearm is if you can take them side on and they are pointing the pistol at someone else.

If they are pointing the gun at you I'd say if by some reason they miss with the first they will get you with the second

pearsquasher

It's pretty much established that the actual disarming of an armed individual is extremely unlikey to occur in modern Irish society amongst anyone here. Thats a given. My point was that training to do it, just like training with other weapons that are not used much, as in swords, chains, polearms etc, gives one insight into many of the things that are applicable in our society and that we may encounter - distance, timing, awareness, perceptions, shielding, tactical positioning, bal;ance-breaking line-of-fire etc.

In the end, I personally don't expect to encounter ANY actual aggresive actions that warrant me using my training "fo real", but thats not what i do MA for anyway... i do it for intellectual discovery. Dealing with how a person uses a gun (or any object for that matter), is interesting. If I was was living in more of a gun culture, then practical considerations would come into it no doubt - the first being how i ended up in a situation anyway, but when we do stuff with weapons in a safer society.... its to amplify the principles that conflict contains without them, some of which I mentioned above.

So ultimately, what might look like me practicing an unlikey-to-happen disarm of a rather stupid gun-toting mugger, is really me practicing these other things. The benefits go beyond that which someone who doesn't study MA, sees.

Millionaire

go into yahoo movies and type in gun disarm techniques or krav maga gun disarm etc and you will see a few examples. I am not techie enough to paste links to them on here.

Of course its life or death. robbers (as opposed to a hitman) will use the gun (or knife, or HIV needle etc) to indimidate you to do whatever, as opposed with the intention of doing serious harm (usually) .

Have a look anyway and see.

Me its ony a very very small party of my training, but good to know.

Millionaire

here is a link to some gun defences , video quality just ok but it gives you and idea of some examples of techniques for practice reasons

http://www.kravmagaco.com/videos.php

Musashi

I'd like to ba able to do what this guy does, with a revolver


Fast Gun

Millionaire

thats fast gun skills!!!!!!!!! man I am like take aim (hesitate for about 30 sec ) bang...shoot paper man target in balls. and repeat. takes about 5 min to fire the clip!!! LOL...but I am learning and getting better and better each time I am away and get the chance!!

Colm_OReilly

Look what happend Jimmy Curran. I came acriss and trained a few times with him years ago (he was under Fusoc and me under G Canning). Now I would have hated to brawled that guy, a tough dude. but look what happened.

As far as I'm aware that wasn't a random attack or down to his ma skills, it came about due to the company he kept and the "activities" he engaged in.

go to Lillies some night, stay sober, keep eyes open and observe and I tell you....its a wake up call.

They don't let me into Lillies

Probably for the same reason we dont discuss road safety, although it's a major cause of death in ireland: Because this is the self defence forum

Briefly we're under the presumption that you practice an MA for self preservation - to keep you alive. The point I was trying to make is there are more efficient and beneficial avenues to improve your likelihood of survival than gun defence.

I'm not convinced of those gun disarm techniques on the KM site. It's not the techniques themselves I've a problem with, it's the reference point. If I was holding someone hostage with a firearm, I'd stand a bit back. I mean, that't one of the main benefits of a gun. Stand a few feet away and threaten them rather than holding it against them, reducing your reaction time if they decide to play hero.

Colm

Millionaire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I'm not convinced of those gun disarm techniques on the KM site. It's not the techniques themselves I've a problem with, it's the reference point. If I was holding someone hostage with a firearm, I'd stand a bit back. I mean, that't one of the main benefits of a gun. Stand a few feet away and threaten them rather than holding it against them, reducing your reaction time if they decide to play hero.

Colm

There is no way of know how a gun attack will happen, it will be a random like a street attack, CHAOS rules. only thing I can say in defence of the KM gun stuff is that the Israelis who developed these techniques, were out there facing this up for real, the disarms were developed by experienced soldiers who saw actual combat. plus recently they have been practicing with SIMULITION which gives a very real effect, and the disarms worked, re guys getting out of line of fire.

Sure this training is not as applicable to Ireland. But sure its good to know, I might get a contract teaching the FBI!!! LOL!!!!!

As for lillies your missing nothing, its full of coke heads!!

dent

Millionaire wrote:

the disarms were developed by experienced soldiers who saw actual combat.

From a gunship 8000ft in the air :rolleyes:

I'd love to know how many of them have used these techniques to disarm people in a war zone.

I'd wager zero.

Musashi

One of many studies done on the willingness of soldiers to kill in combat was done by Col. David Grossmann and argued in his book "On Killing". He's the guy you saw on National Geo. telling you most troops shoot in the air etc. when in combat.
The US Marines to combat this finding have introduced man shaped reactive targets that pop up,move and fall when hit with aimed small arms fire. This reduces hitting moving shapes to a game for the average volunteer or indeed Draftee.
But Elite units in any army have never accepted draftees, you had to want and earn your place.These are not average lads who'd rather be at home.They are dedicated and highly motivated operators who are happy that their decision in career is the right one and they will take lives if ordered to do so.Any niggly doubts are resolved during selection or the guys wash out of the training and are returned to unit.

You may or may not know that licenced handguns were never outlawed in the Republic, they were taken in for public safety and licences were not given out agai, so you couldn't get them back. There is a move to allow licenced pistols back into the hands of responsible Irish shooters so they can compete in Sporting events, as is part of the Olympic Charter.

The banning or otherwise of guns has never stopped criminals or paramilitary groups having and using guns in crime, we all know this. With the advancing decomissioning and break up of such groups who can tell how many ex-quartermasters will keep back some weapons to rent out for armed robbery, or indeed go into business for themselves? I remember an incident a few years ago here in Dungarvan where a pub arguement saw a guy go home and come back to the bar with a pistol to settle his differences, no shots were fired but these things are happening all the time. Remember the guy dumped by his girlfriend who shot her as she left a club to go home?
Firearms training, either in using them or disarming them will give anyone a better idea of the power and potential for harm involved.

Millionaire, what do you usually shoot? Israel is known for the Galil and Uzi, both designed by the same guy, and of course the Israeli Military Industries "Desert Eagle". I hear the .50 Action Express round is actually the mildest to shoot? I'd love to try a 10mm Colt Delta Elite, the slab sided ergonomics should suit me better than the upside down safety on Berretta/Browning Hi-Power or the frankly horrible Glocks.
I enjoy more long range shooting with bolt action rifles, a similar skill to Golfing as far as I can tell from talking to lads who pursue the small ball All about consistency and controlling your body under pressure, a skill I like to practice. I must get some range time in on my big rifle soon, not had her out for a blast in a while.

It's not applicable to a ring or most everybodies every day life, unless your in the Irish Army Ranger Wing.It is a "Martial" art though, more so than unarmed or even blade styles these days, so is worth a look see and has a place in this forum in my opinion.I'll debate any style or practice with anyone cares to chat about weapons handling or load outs, whatever, it's good to learn.

Millionaire

I know zero about shooting I am only learning or trying to , as discussed there is no where in ireland where you can legally go to a shooting range to learn.

But to answer the question, this is all I have shot Colt 45, Glock 45, and S&W .38 revolver and AK47.

In my last week there I fired more rounds that the average arm garda does a year (it think they have to fire 80 every 3 months, garda who drives a former taosieach i know was telling me).

I found with the 45s when I was aiming for the heart (bulls eye on the man shaped targert) I kept hitting him in the balls area. I think I was jerking the pistol too much to counter act the massive kick out of the 45. so I moved down to s & w 38 revlover and had much better targeting with that/

Yes the Galil is the standard issue some folding stocks ,looks exactly like M16 and ya see them on the streets everywhere even the 18 year ol chicks with them. sometimes you see guys with different rifles and the lads were saying they were special units, thet even take them when of duty and out for a few beer!!!

strange thing is I did not see one Uzi in Israel...not one!!!

Musashi

Probably because the Uzi is crap for taking an aimed shot at a bad guy and planting only him when there are crowds about.It fires from an open bolt so the kinetic energy of the breech block slamming forward throws your aim off,as well as all that movement makes the gun inherently inaccurate.Full auto not so good on a shopping street either
Assault rifles generally fire from a closed bolt,only the firing pin moves, and semi-auto or sometimes two to four round burst fire can be selected,giving a better chance of hitting than "pray and spray". The .223 round in the Galil may be a little vigorous for soft targets (like people) and could over penetrate.A decent submachine gun i.e. pistol calibre in a shoulder fired gun, would be a way better option.Think Heckler and Koch MP5 in any configuration.

Are you sure the guns you saw weren't actually M16 or clones? Galil is more like an AK or Daewoo assault rifle I think.

Galil



M16



Daewoo

Millionaire

they Galil I saw on 5 off duty lads one night in a cafe. one of the israeli said they were a special unit , the guns had olding stock.

The regular conscript rifle very like M16 or Daewoo. thats what I saw the most.

Interesting our cops use the UZI if so inaccurate. aside from the ERU , i think the guards fire power is weak. all the guys near retirement get to look atfer the ministers...do not make sense to me.

Dyr

that daewoo thing looks like one dem old SLR's

Musashi

The Uzi is piss poor really, we probably got a bust of em in a swap for beef or butter or something. The ERU tend to use stuff like the H&K G3 assault rifle or the MP5 and pump action shotguns.Pistols tend to be Smiths (revolvers) or Browning Hi-Power, bit of a misnomer as it's a nine milly and the FBI now use nothing smaller than a .45/10 mm/.40 S&W. due to an infamous shootout where the bad guys only got stopped by one older agent packing a .357 wheelgun.
The Steyr AUG the army got is a pretty decent gun by all accounts, accurate and reliable, so once they modded the triggers on ones sent here they were grand.

Musashi

These girls are getting some ice cream, Chunky Monkey maybe?

Clive

I could go for a bit of chunky right now...

53846

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that carry guns and get shot. Live by the sword....

Baz_

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that carry guns and get shot. Live by the sword....

Are you on drugs?

This thread isn't even about people getting shot, its about people learning unarmed defenses to getting shot.

Did you even read it?

53846

Baz_ wrote:

Are you on drugs?

This thread isn't even about people getting shot, its about people learning unarmed defenses to getting shot.

Did you even read it?

Yes, Yes I did, as long as you have no further questions on the subject.

What I said is still valid, learn about gun defense all you like but if you carry a firearm and get shot I won't cry for you. Especially you Baz_. Especially you.

Millionaire

good pic of the israeli chicks...that exactly what it is like!!! LOL

I had the blonde one!!!! LOL

kinda a sexy me thinks!!!! ya can leave the gun on babe!! ha ha

Millionaire

are they M16 or Galil rifles the chicks have???

53846

Millionaire wrote:

good pic of the israeli chicks...that exactly what it is like!!! LOL

I had the blonde one!!!! LOL

kinda a sexy me thinks!!!! ya can leave the gun on babe!! ha ha

issues?

Baz_

53846 wrote:

Especially you Baz_. Especially you.

Hahah! Classic. As everyone on boards.ie knows, I'm always packing.

Millionaire

53846 wrote:

issues?

yeah lots!!!

53846

Baz_ wrote:

Hahah! Classic. As everyone on boards.ie knows, I'm always packing.

message edited by mod

I'm glad to annonce your post has been reported for personal abuse. Shame on you shame on you. What MA do you do and where do you train BAz?