Suicide

mindurownbusnes

Hey guys,

I know this is a touchy subject. Im just looking for answers to this. Do you think that someone who has absolutely nothing in their life, they dont like themselves and noone likes them should just be able to kill themselves without judgements ie religion etc.? Providing they have no future ahead of them.
It is like euthanasia but do you think its right?
I mean with so many people treating people harsh to others in the world, its only natural people feel this way
It's something Im working on at the mo, community mental health is so important.

nesf

I don't like the way you've phrased that. I don't think you can ever state that someone has nothing left for them in life. Or at the very least it's highly debatable. Also not liking yourself is a very vague term. Are we talking low self-esteem or genuine hatred here? Does this person suffer from some mental illness that is causing them to think this way? etc.

Although it does bring up the interesting point of whether there's a right to death.


Either way this belongs more in Humanities than AH, so thread moved.

mindurownbusnes

From what I know about them, they are just not satisfied with themselves. They had a rough abusive life. And have hatred about themselves and who they are.

Worst case scenario

bounty_hunter

I honestly don't think anybody can accurately judge whether or not they have "no future". Nobody can tell what's going to happen in the future, it's impossible to predict what changes could come about in life.
Just about anybody with enough willpower and/or support is capable of bringing themself back from the brink and making changes to their own attitude that will secure them a decent shot at living.

However, I do believe in the "right to death" (so to speak), to a certain extent. Is this more the issue you're getting at?

deisedevil

mindurownbusnes wrote:

Hey guys,

I know this is a touchy subject. Im just looking for answers to this. Do you think that someone who has absolutely nothing in their life, they dont like themselves and noone likes them should just be able to kill themselves without judgements ie religion etc.? Providing they have no future ahead of them.
It is like euthanasia but do you think its right?

I think when someone gets themselves in that state of mind they aren't gonna care about anything else religion etc. they don't care about anything anymore.i don't think anyone has the right to judge them, maybe if they hadn't gone ahead with it a few mins later even they might be glad they didn't but to actually jump or whatever means that they weren't thinking rationally they had blocked out all the reasons not to do it. thank god i have never been in that state and i think anyone who hasn't has no right to judge someone for going ahead with it.
I know of someone who lived near my town who jumped into the quay one night, a few people saw him and ran over and as he was dragged out to sea they could hear him screaming for help(he had told someone he was going to do it so it wasn't an accident) An image of that comes into my head every time i heard the word suicide now, it must have been horrible to have heard that.

mindurownbusnes

I think its all about your mental state of health, but suicide is something that is one of those things, who can says its wrong or right? Nobody knows. Maybe it's right, maybe it's your right.

bounty_hunter

deisedevil wrote:

i don't think anyone has the right to judge them, maybe if they hadn't gone ahead with it a few mins later even they might be glad they didn't but to actually jump or whatever means that they weren't thinking rationally they had blocked out all the reasons not to do it.

On that point, somebody very close to me was in the same situation at one point and, after surviving what they had expected to be a fatal overdose, remarked that they had never in their entire life felt so happy to be alive.

mindurownbusnes

Life is what you make of it .

But life and something we dont know about is like drunk and sober. You look at life from somewhere else and say what was the point in that?

What I mean life in general, there must be another part of existence where it doesnt matter.

bounty_hunter

Could you expand on that a bit?

mindurownbusnes

I just got a hit of some though that's why I said that so now Im a bit vague on what I meant but here it goes.

Anyway life is just a cycle, being happy getting a job, keeping healthy having a a family etc.

All that seems perfectly normal, but its the norm standard in this life! There must be another point in existence ie afterlife where lifes cycle is practically insignificant or just pointless. But life is for a reason I guess.

Depressed people generally dont have the typical motivation that most people have. So I guess they see things from a different point of view but who's to say who's wrong or not.

bounty_hunter

Depression is a mental illness, somebody who is depressed often isn't capable of thinking in a rational way, and usually cannot control any thoughts of suicide that they might be having.

There's no question that a person suffering from depression would have significantly different views about life in general if they were cured of their illness, and therefore you can't really assume that the feelings they are having while they are at their lowest point (ie, considering suicide) are "final", and that nothing will ever change for them.

Of course, this is not how it will seem to them at the time (and therefore they should not be judged), but this is how anybody looking at the situation from the outside should be able to see it.

deisedevil

It's always sad to hear of someone going ahead with it. i always think that with some suicides all thats needed is for them to speak with someone. Life for some people is horrible, can't seem to get along with people,can't get a gf,can't sort out money problems etc. but just to talk it out with someone can bring them back. For example if the person can't seem to get along with people just talking it out with someone and seeing the reason why it might be happening to them gives them a reason to try and put it right and the realisation that there is no reason to kill themselves over something that can easily be put right.

Faye

Suicide is the biggest killer of our young men, particularly rural men. The amount of people who suicide is way higher than any other death-causing statistic we have. We have a crisis on our hands.

It’s not just a matter of not having a future. Exactly as Nesf says, who are we to judge what people think is unbearable or not. I do think that we have the right to choose if we want to live or die. Where I have the problem is, when we make that choice, are we within our ‘senses’? Does someone who is so distressed, who believes that the world would be a better place with him/her, who feels that their very existence is unnoteworthy that their death would be an improvement, have the balance of mind to make the correct decision? I’m not sure. I know of several families who have been affected by suicide. The pain is overwhelming, the anger is scary, and the absolute destruction of the thought that the loss could have been avoided is life altering.

We live in a very selfish world, not by design but by our insistence that time is money. We have so very little time to give to others, we must make money, we must pay mortgages and we must reach our goals. How many times have we ignored that plea for help because it inconvenienced us, because we didn’t quite believe that the person could be in such need or indeed that we had the tools to help that person. I’m as guilty as the next man/woman. We are afraid to reach out to each other in case we get swamped ourselves.

No one says ‘I have enough’… ‘I’d be no loss’… ‘I can’t cope’ for the fun of it. Each of us needs to learn that, if we can put up our own boundaries, we can help others. We need to realize that while we may not be trained or even not feel capable of listening to someone who is ‘waving while drowning’ that we have an obligation to help. We must know the warning signs. We instinctively know them but we must learn to react to them and if we cant then we must enlist the help of someone who does.

But to go back to the original poster, suicide is nothing like euthanasia. More often than not suicide doesn’t affect an old/sick person who has lived their life, it affects ordinary young people. People that we know, people that we assume will have the tools we have to deal with the ****e that life throws at us and it isn’t always folk who have been abused. People who suicides are incredibly alone, they feel that they have nothing to contribute, that they have nothing of value to give to the community, their family or their world.

I’m sorry, this is a topic close to my heart and as such I may not be presenting a ‘proper’ debate. I chose not to react once and I will not do it again. All it takes sometimes is a ‘Do you want to talk about it?’ or even ‘Tell me exactly how you feel’ and being prepared to stop and listen - not judge, just accept and listen. We do not have the right to tell anyone that they cannot take their own life but we do have an obligation to make ourselves present to hear their argument. The signs will be there, we need to make ourselves aware of these signs and we need to act upon them. The choice of to suicide is not ours to make however.

28064212

TBH, I don't understand suicides. To quote.....someone - "It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem". No matter how bad or depressing your life is (a) there's always someone worse off and has more problems than you, and they're coping, and (b) there's always the possibility it could get better. It shows a distinct lack of imagination IMO.

On the other hand, I don't believe anybody else is in a position to judge. However, with regard to the mention of religion - if, for example, you are Catholic and you commit suicide, you go to hell. It's a rule that is part of the religion. You can't be a genuine follower, and not believe that. And as such it's impossible to not be judged by your religion.

rsynnott

Religious issues aside (they are purely a matter for the individual), I would think that anyone has the right to kill themselves if they want to.

Tobias Greeshman

28064212 wrote:

TBH, I don't understand suicides. To quote.....someone - "It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem". No matter how bad or depressing your life is (a) there's always someone worse off and has more problems than you, and they're coping, and (b) there's always the possibility it could get better. It shows a distinct lack of imagination IMO.

I agree with both points except your final sentence, in general people who do contemplate suicide tend to suffer from some sort of depression (not all but most do), and as a result tend to feel isolated in their pain (believe that their friends, family and peers cannot empathise with their pain) and so cannot see outside their pain, so are incapable of seeing the points you mentioned above.

Dades

28064212 wrote:

It shows a distinct lack of imagination IMO.

I think that shows a distinct lack of understanding. I understand what you're getting at but nobody could possibly know unless they found themselves in those circumstances.

28064212 wrote:

if, for example, you are Catholic and you commit suicide, you go to hell. It's a rule that is part of the religion. You can't be a genuine follower, and not believe that. And as such it's impossible to not be judged by your religion.

It's also a rule that just because you believe something to be so doesn't make it true. If Catholics who commit suicide go to hell, where do non-catholics who commit suicide go?

Besides I would imagine these poor individuals are more intent on escaping their own hell than concerning themselves with the next one.

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

If Catholics who commit suicide go to hell, where do non-catholics who commit suicide go?

They go to hell anyway for not being Catholics

Slightly off topic, the religous rules against suicide are rather funny in my view (not that suicide is fun mind) ... you can see all the wise men sitting around talking about how wonderful heaven is, how amazing it will be, and then thinking "sh*t, everyone is just going to top themselves to get to heaven! We better make suicide a sin quick!"

Dades

I'm not sure what you're suggesting Wicknight - but I like it.

Of course some interpretations of Religious teachings claim suicide is glorious in certain circumstances.

Victor

The Atheist wrote:

Of course some interpretations of Religious teachings claim suicide is glorious in certain circumstances.

Are you mistaking suicide for selflessness?

Neuro

nesf wrote:

Although it does bring up the interesting point of whether there's a right to death.

A related question is the right of two people to give life; it's only in living that people suffer.

Cronus333

This subject seems a little to touchy....

Neuro

bounty_hunter wrote:

Depression is a mental illness, somebody who is depressed often isn't capable of thinking in a rational way...

This is an interesting topic. In her 1989 book, health psychologist Shelly Taylor discusses 'Positive Illusions': self-deceptive beliefs that mentally healthy people possess in order to get through life. For example, people tend to greatly over-estimate the amount of control they have in their lives, inflate their achievements and attribute their failures to external people or events, maintain outlooks which ignore future negative events such as loss of youth, vitality, intelligence, death of loved ones etc. The book is now out of print put you can read more about this topic in 'Positive Psychology' by John Carr.

Individuals who are depressed have been proven to have a more accurate perceptions of the world and future personal events. It is argued therefore, that healthy people tend to have a more irrational view of the world than depressed people. This irrationality is believed to be evolutionary in origin, an adaption that increased an individual's chances of survival and procreation.

bounty_hunter

Neuro wrote:

This is an interesting topic. In her 1989 book, health psychologist Shelly Taylor discusses 'Positive Illusions': self-deceptive beliefs that mentally healthy people possess in order to get through life. For example, people tend to greatly over-estimate the amount of control they have in their lives, inflate their achievements and attribute their failures to external people or events, maintain outlooks which ignore future negative events such as loss of youth, vitality, intelligence, death of loved ones etc. The book is now out of print put you can read more about this topic in 'Positive Psychology' by John Carr.

Individuals who are depressed have been proven to have a more accurate perceptions of the world and future personal events. It is argued therefore, that healthy people tend to have a more irrational view of the world than depressed people. This irrationality is believed to be evolutionary in origin, an adaption that increased an individual's chances of survival and procreation.

That's quite interesting, might see about getting hold of that book.

But I did say they "often" aren't capable of thinking rationally

lazylad

Life is crap. My closest friend ever, we were both always to ourselves in school done everytin together, hung around the town, got on bus to dublin first morning of our mock for junior cert. He was my best friend and i will never forget him. He hung himself one week before leaving cert and I have never felt the same since. i dont know why he done it and I have never forgotten it. Some b*stards dnt knw how lucky they are. I mean im a reject i knw it but he was the only person ever like me