Is Northern Ireland a lost cause?

murphaph

Just watching BBC news this evening. The PSNI put 2 of their landrovers on display, resplendant in bullet holes. One of the windows had 2 bullet marks and a police inspector had been sitting behind it. This was attempted murder. It's been 11 years since the first ceasefires, and now this, another return to the bad old days. I think NI is fcuked-permanently and that no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

dlofnep

We're talking 100's of years of conflict and rage built up. Even if everyone's problems were solved, they would still find something petty to argue about.

Laguna

It's the mentality of the people who live there, it will never end. They must enjoy it, when you see the news it's always the generic 18-20 year old scumbags throwing moltov cocktails.

What I think the saddest part about it is, is the fact that it's Protestant against Catholic, what's the difference? Vicars can get married? They don't believe in the imaculate conception?, pathetic in this day and age.

monument

Laguna wrote:

What I think the saddest part about it is, is the fact that it's Protestant against Catholic, what's the difference? Vicars can get married? They don't believe in the imaculate conception?, pathetic in this day and age.

It’s really unionists/loyalists v nationalists/republicans.

murphaph wrote:

I think NI is fcuked-permanently and that no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

With people who think like you, maybe you're right.

whiskeyman

monument wrote:

It’s really unionists/loyalists v nationalists/republicans.

True... if they were so hardcore with religion, surely "Thou shall not kill" might play a bigger part...

mike65

Laguna wrote:

It's the mentality of the people who live there, it will never end. They must enjoy it, when you see the news it's always the generic 18-20 year old scumbags throwing moltov cocktails.

Thats the saddest part. Kids who don't remember the real "Troubles" and who get a thrill out of 'political' violence, like its thier sanction.

Suicide rates have risen considerably since the out break of NIs' Cold War, the true level of sectarian and socialopathic behaviour has been exposed.

Of course the old mantra about how its only a minority gets trotted out but one can't help but suspect inside a majority of Northern Irish people there's a
true stone cold distain for "the other tribe".

Mike.

Mucco

mike65 wrote:

Of course the old mantra about how its only a minority gets trotted out

Look at the recent Westminster elections to see which way the ideologies are going.

M

murphaph

Mucco wrote:

Look at the recent Westminster elections to see which way the ideologies are going.

M

Indeed, it's polarising even more than ever.

murphaph

monument wrote:

With people who think like you, maybe you're right.

People like me who think that firing bullets at a police officer's head is wrong?

monument

Here's a quote from you, in bold (and under lined) is the mind set which won't help NI...

I think NI is fcuked-permanently and that no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

You’re displaying the mentality of a hardliner, the kind of person I wouldn’t be surprised to hear 'if only we could push the north out to sea' or 'lets kill them all, that'll solve the problem'. I’m not saying you think such or would say such, I just wouldn’t be surprised if you did.

Laguna

Now what I don't get about these loyalist hard liners is the fact they regard themselves as "British", well, by the law they are as N.Ireland as part of the U.K. Would it kill them if I told them that people in England regard all people in N.Ireland as Irish. Why do they cling to the Crown like this? What did Britain ever do for them?, If Britain had the capability without loss of life+bombings etc., they'd be out of N.Ireland like a ****ing bullet.

jesus_thats_gre

murphaph wrote:

I think NI is fcuked-permanently and that no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

You sure you are not from the north as this is the stance that most of them have about "the other side" and could be the root cause for alot of the troubles..

sceptre

monument wrote:

I’m not saying you think such or would say such, I just wouldn’t be surprised if you did.

Few things surprise me these days, especially after what Disney have decided to do to the Muppets in their next movie outing. Now, I'd appreciate it if you remembered the guideline we have about attacking posters who use the forum, observe the thick line running to your side and don't step over it. Or dance on it. You may say that you find the statements a little or a lot hardline but I could do without anyone making a personal case on a(n admitted) possibly quicksand foundation of assumptions and potential straw men with regard to "you remind me... but you may not be (but it makes me feel better to assume that you are...)". Happily there's been rather less of that sort of thing in the past few months but it pains me every time I see it. So let's not do it.

It's a reasonable topic so how about we don't play the personalisation game but try to restrict ourselves to saying why the assumptions and arguments arising are correct or incorrect, worthy or unworthy. It'll save me making condescending replies like the above or worse and I think we could all do without that as well.

biko

No, it's not a lost cause

murphaph

'People' who throw blast bombs at polce officers just doing their job and then attempting to murder same officers with gunfire are defective. They are scum and should be eliminated from society. This kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the UK or in Ireland for that matter. That's why I reckon NI is a lost cause.

Hobbes

Forget the police officers for a second..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4236208.stm

In Belfast a 22-month-old infant sustained a fractured skull when rioters stoned the car the toddler was in in the Fortwilliam area.

Two men hijacked a bus in Bangor, County Down, robbed the passengers then ordered them off the bus before setting it alight on a housing estate.

And more listed... wtf are they letting these people do this for? Considering the police have actual footage of Orange Order members removing thier uniforms and joining in the riots why the fuk aren't the OO doing something about it?

hill16

The people rioting claim to be loyal to the crown,but they are trying to kill the crown forces.Not very loyal is it.

IronMan

hill16 wrote:

The people rioting claim to be loyal to the crown,but they are trying to kill the crown forces.Not very loyal is it.

Sinn Fein/IRA claim to represent the "Republican" community, and yet they were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney, Jean McConville. Not very loyal is it?

MrPudding

Just saw a nice on on BBCi. Interview with the owner of a carpet shop on the Shankil. Shop was destroyed last night by a petrol bomb. What was his answer when asked who was responsible? Peter Hain and the Parades Commission. The reporter asked did he not blame the people that actually burnt his shop out and he said no.

Reg Empy (sp) justified the riots by basically saying the rioter saw nationalist & republicans getting what they wanted through violence.

MrP

por

MrPudding wrote:

Just saw a nice on on BBCi. Interview with the owner of a carpet shop on the Shankil. Shop was destroyed last night by a petrol bomb. What was his answer when asked who was responsible? Peter Hain and the Parades Commission. The reporter asked did he not blame the people that actually burnt his shop out and he said no.

Reg Empy (sp) justified the riots by basically saying the rioter saw nationalist & republicans getting what they wanted through violence.

MrP

From all I have heard and read in the past day not one single unionist or orange order member has put any blame on the rioters for this.
It's all the parade commisions and PSNIs fault.
It's time unionist politicians stood up and be counted.

Hobbes

IronMan wrote:

Sinn Fein/IRA claim to represent the "Republican" community, and yet they were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney, Jean McConville. Not very loyal is it?

ooh that makes perfect sense then. I guess two wrongs do make a right. :rolleyes:

Hells_Belle

I don't want to think it a lost cause, but I was watching this weekend's events and wondering what the outcome will be when neither side can have what they want. It is difficult to see a solution with NI looking more and more like the Gaza strip these days.

It seems widely accepted, though, that the Republic doesn't want NI, not least of all because the costs would be dire. (I am not taking a stance on whether that is right or wrong, just stating my observations.) What would happen if Ireland had a referendum to re-write the constitution to remove the "32 counties" definition of Ireland, and then actually told NI they were not ever going to be part of the ROI so it was time for them to move on to Plan B?

Could (or has) such a referendum happen? What would be the outcome?

I've only just moved here and I am not pretending to have even a basic understanding of the history and complexities of this situation. I'm only asking questions because I'm interested in learning more.

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

why the fuk aren't the OO doing something about it?

The OO dont care, they just want their parades

Its time for all parades to take place on the one day (i.e. 12 July) other than that all these parades should be banned.

The parades commission should be setting out the routes for all these marches into the future, e.g. this is the route the parade will take for the next 5 years, no ifs no buts.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

The people rioting claim to be loyal to the crown,but they are trying to kill the crown forces.Not very loyal is it.

True.

The people out rioting are completely fcuked up in my opinion.
They are out of there cotton picking minds.

I heard on Joe Duffy of a couple who were coming home in a D reg car from stranraer and came across a roadblock with about 200 mostly masked people throwing things at the cars.
There was a woman in her early 20's pegging bicycle wheels at the cars and aiming a hammer at the driver with a look of complete hate on her face.

Mind boggling primitive stuff.
Those people would want to take a 100mtrs dash down a 50mtr pier and stay bopping in the freezing water untill they get sense.

I doubt they will get sense though as apparently catholics boil their babies :rolleyes: ergo the only way to save the protestants from that catholic savagery is to riot as and when the leaders of the local community see fit.

lostexpectation

there seems to be very little coverage of it, anyone have any good sources for it, and why its happening ?

murphaph

lostexpectation wrote:

there seems to be very little coverage of it, anyone have any good sources for it, and why its happening ?

Huh? stick on the telly! UTVLive is on right now and has been focused on the riotiong for the last half an hour! Expect the same on BBC Newsline in 10 mins!

Well, a nice gang stopped a bus load of OAPs ho were attending some protestant church thing in the Odyssey and robbed them all before ordering them off the bus, hijacking it and burning it out.

They are estimating this will cost the british taxpayer half a million pounds in burnt out buses ALONE!!!

UTVLive reporter Jamie Delargy just reiterated my OP-"Is NI politically unstabl forever and will this prevent it's economy moving forward?" or words to that effect!

Adams is now blaming the Unionist Leaders-but not the scumbags who threw the bombs, the OO blames the Parades Commission, Nigel Dodds is blaming the PSNI for being 'provocative' (for fcuk's sake-live rounds and bombs were thrown at them!). It's gas-nobody but the PSNI is blaming (amongst others) the scumbags throwing the bombs. NI is fcuked. End of story.

Hobbes

murphaph wrote:

Huh? stick on the telly! UTVLive is on right now and has been focused on the riotiong for the last half an hour! Expect the same on BBC Newsline in 10 mins!

RTE and UTV had huge news sections to it.

Sky News. Cricket.
Sky News Ireland. 3 minutes of it just now on TV.

Might of gotten more coverage earlier but the stories I have heard so far are just unreal. I can't believe that some unionists/Orange Order are saying it is the parades commissioners fault.

zuma

Northern Ireland is a failed state which was in a Civil War stance for 30 years and the only thing stopping complete social breakdown being the British Army(which made a lot of mistakes itself)!

Currently its in a state of Cold War.

Is it a lost cause???
There is always some hope isnt there....?

Lennoxschips

monument wrote:

I wouldn’t be surprised to hear 'if only we could push the north out to sea'

Come on, everybody knows that that's technologically unfeasable.

Dimitri

Rioting over the route of a parade, you'd think they'd have something better to do with their time. Personally i don't see any resolution to petty this mindedness in the near future. However a hardline stance on anyone carrying a weapon might help prevent such vicious attacks, along with random searches, yes i am talking about a complete invasion on peoples civil liberties and normally i'm all against it but if they are going to riot which its pretty clear they want to do than i think it would be better they're not armed when they are doing it. The PSNI are in a rough job trying to avoid the many mistakes made by the RUC in the past, i'd prefer if they weren't killed in the process. However i haven't given too much intrest to the north since adams denied he was in the IRA. Hope? There is always hope but only when the people of the north come together and act as one community and not two can a resolution be found.

jubbly

Someone PM'd me asking why I reckoned the north had nothing. I wished their soccer team well after beating England cos I reckon the place up there has nothing. The rioting the last few days just re inforces my opinion.

The north just stumbles from crises to crises. How long ago since the GFA and there still doesnt look as if any improvement has been made in setting up the assembly and between the two communites. The PIRA look like they are going to de-comission and all the Unionist can do is riot. I always thought it was their major concern.

Things are hardly going to improve over the next decade either. If SF continue to rise as the main nationalist party I expect Unionism to continue to be outraged. The UK government doesnt seem arsed about the North, if it wasnt for the Irish government they would be still in the same state circa 1990.

I always felt the only solution for the north is to join with the south. They would gain more from the arrangment than people in the south. There is so much suicide, drug dealing, prostitution, bigroty, murder, unemployment, poverty etc. Personally I wouldnt want the north to join. The north is a bottomless pit of problems.

fly_agaric

jubbly wrote:

I always felt the only solution for the north is to join with the south.

You think things are bad now???

The unionists will really throw the rattle (i.e. go on a major bombing and shooting campaign against the "Taigs in Dublin" :rolleyes: ) if this ever happens. Then the whole of Ireland can be just like NI, while NI itself stays pretty much the same! In fact, people up there will probably get even angrier due to the loss of welfare sweeties (like busses for burning) from the British government. Great.

MrPudding

jubbly wrote:

There is so much suicide, drug dealing, prostitution, bigroty, murder, unemployment, poverty etc.

Sounds just like Ireland.

MrP

Sponge Bob

I propose we call it Chavghanistan ,after all they paraded their burberry and hoodie fashion all weekend to the cameras in great style .

Loyal Chavs are truly the very Best of British

linux

murphaph wrote:

'People' who throw blast bombs at polce officers just doing their job and then attempting to murder same officers with gunfire are defective. They are scum and should be eliminated from society. This kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the UK or in Ireland for that matter. That's why I reckon NI is a lost cause.

So what do you propose should be done then?

jank

NI is fcuked. End of story

OK so will you then stop making new threads on the evils of Sinn Fein

To the most important matter at hand.
The IRA is gone and the loyalists dont now what to do now, since they are tired of shooting each other now so they start on the PSNI.

When are the LVF, UDA, UDF going to disarm?

No politcical leadership at all from the unionist community. Blaming everybody but themselves! When there are riots in nationalist areas Sinn Fein Member are PUBLICLY seen trying to calm down matters.

Where are the members of the DUP on the streets of Belfast trying to calm down matters.

The North is trying to move on, well at least the nationalists are. Give it time. Those scumbags will be left behind in the next few years. Once they realise that we live in the 21st centuary not the 17th things may change.
Things are changing already in the north hence the riots. The loyalists are afraid that they no longer can bully and dominate like before, hence this show of anger

folk_smith

This is not going to end until the Catholics of Northern Ireland are given back their land. Yeah, I know the reformation was 300 + years ago, but that doesn't make it right. Britain remains a colonizer.




I was born on a Dublin street where the royal drums did beat,
And those loving English feet they tramped all over us,
And each and every night when me father came home tight
He'd invite the neighbors outside with this chorus:

Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

Come tell us how you slew them poor Arabs two by two,
Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows,
How you bravely faced each one with your 16-pounder gun,
And you frightened them poor natives to their marrow.

Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

Come let us hear you tell how you slandered great Parnell,
When you thought him well and truly persecuted,
Where are the sneers and jeers that you bravely let us hear
When our heroes of '16 were executed?

Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

Alan Larkin and O`Brian held you strong and called you swine
Robert Emmett who you hung and drew and quartered
High upon the scaffold high, how you butchered Henry Joy
And the Croppy Boys of Wexford you did slaughter

Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

Well the day is coming fast and the time is here at last,
When each yeoman will be cut aside before us,
And if there be a need, sure me kids would sing, "Godspeed,"
With a verse or two of Stephen Behan's chorus:

Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra.

billy the squid

This is not going to end until the Catholics of Northern Ireland are given back their land. Yeah, I know the reformation was 300 + years ago, but that doesn't make it right. Britain remains a colonizer.

not all catholics are nationalists, they are not all landless peasants either.

folk_smith

billy the squid wrote:

not all catholics are nationalists, they are not all landless peasants either.

I wasn't suggesting that they are ....

billy the squid

firstly, the gripe the unionists have against the PSNI resulting in the rioting during the weekend has bog all to do with the poor landless catholics you speak of.

Secondly, the Brittish Government havent offered incentive schemes for residents on the mainland of the UK to move to Northern Ireland. therefore they are not "colonizing" it as you speak. they might have done so 100 years ago, but not now, to the best of my knowledge of course.

now as for the topic of the thread

the problem with the unionists is that they have no one to pick a fight with and fear that their position is under thread and feel they need the attention.

on top of that you have opportunistic crinimal activity taking place also.

and throw in a few firearms and you have what happened last weekend.

it will be at least 50 years before the ireland you speak of can be considered, the number of people who were born on the island who wish to keep their citezenship of the UK is too great. and as both ireland and Britain are democratic countries, then these people have to have to have their opinions heard, provided they do it in a peaceful manner.

zuma

Sponge Bob wrote:

I propose we call it Chavghanistan ,after all they paraded their burberry and hoodie fashion all weekend to the cameras in great style .

Loyal Chavs are truly the very Best of British

A bit of humour to break the bleakness of this thread...nice!!!

Hagar

The North is/was a divided society whose only common ground was mutual fear and hate. Now that one side has matured enough to try an break the cycle the other side has nobody left to hate and is imploding. I think its time for the British Govt to stop mollycoddling the Loyalists, declare the Loyalist ceasefires as broken. They should now take whatever action against the Loyalists that they would have taken against the Republicans if the roles were reversed.

jubbly

I think there would have been a totally different reaction if republicans were rioting.

Sponge Bob

jubbly wrote:

I think there would have been a totally different reaction if republicans were rioting.

Dunno.

Republicans may be boring narrowminded ghetto twats once they get any form of internet connection if this Board is anything to go by. Nevertheless they generally do not tend to noisily march mobhanded into areas where they are simply not welcome and then riot when they are told they can't do that by the security forces.

The loyal British uber - chavs are rioting because they were not allowed to walk 200m of fenian road and thats all the rationale they have for all that has happened in the past few days .

If I was advising the PSNI right now I would suggest to them that they should imagine the chavs were suicide bombers trying to kill the plod and act accordingly

Hobbes

chavs are rioting because they were not allowed to walk 200m of fenian road and thats all the rationale they have for all that has happened in the past few days .

From what I have seen the attacks were planned. They had footage of people throwing petrol bombs from a large box full of them.

jubbly

I meant there would have been a totally different reaction from Unionist leaders if republican were rioting.

PUP leader was saying things like, lets not look at the violance, lets look at the causes of violane. UUP was saying things like, this violance happened because republicans get what they want after they use violance. Forget what the DUP were saying.

If republicans were rioting, there would be complete condimation from all sides. What cant they have a cohertent policy.

I dont support republicans in anyway btw.

murphaph

linux wrote:

So what do you propose should be done then?

Absolutely nothing. Nothing should be done for NI. Let them sort it all out amongst each other with no interference by either british or irish governments. Let's all stop wasting our efforts on the place. It seems to be inhabited by a bunch of attention whores and as already mentioned the electorate is voting for the extremes (SF/DUP) in a secret ballot so claiming it's just a minority of extremists is bullsh!t really. The british taxpayer (£8 spent in NI for every £1 generated in taxes there!) will have to replace those buses, clean those streets, pay those police officers overtime bills and pay for their medical treatment, all just until it happens again. So the british subsidy should be withdrawn too as they seem to just waste it on this kind of rubbish.

linux

murphaph wrote:

The british taxpayer (£8 spent in NI for every £1 generated in taxes there!) will have to replace those buses, clean those streets, pay those police officers overtime bills and pay for their medical treatment, all just until it happens again. So the british subsidy should be withdrawn too as they seem to just waste it on this kind of rubbish.

Yep, and until the British Gov finally decide to leave and clean up the mess they started they will continue to pay through the nose for it....

zuma

murphaph wrote:

(£8 spent in NI for every £1 generated in taxes there!).

Is it really that high??????????

Honestly though is it....because the last thing the people in NI should vote for then is to secede from the UK.

As the saying goes "it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas"!!!

If Londoners knew who were really paying the price for these riots they would start rioting themselves.

A Dub in Glasgo

This is the nice little secret that is swept under the carpet over here in Britain. A lot of people are now beginning to question the misuse of taxpayers money to prop up the gerrymandered state.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This is the nice little secret that is swept under the carpet over here in Britain. A lot of people are now beginning to question the misuse of taxpayers money to prop up the gerrymandered state.

Thankfully the closeness of Northern Ireland means that people here are well aware of the cost of maintaining the kip.