Question for Irish programmers.

SeanW

How did you get your first job?

I am a graduate (Business Computing) and have some difficulty finding interested employers. Had two interview recently, one (Intel) explicitly saying "we found better candidates" and another who seems to have forgotten about me and said nothing in the last 3 weeks. I've got a couple of live apps out there and there may be a few more options, but I've exhausted most of the few possibilities out there and I'm really close to my final move.

I had heard - but didn't pay too much attention to - rumours during college that getting graduate programming work was hard, that you need experience which you cannot get without a job, a vicious circle. I've also heard that opportunities are available in Asia, Denmark and the Netherlands. Also spotted ads from the UK.

Questions. How did the programmers here get their first jobs? Did you have to leave Ireland to get it?

Evil Phil

Took a job as a tester and worked my way up. Didn't have any qualifications at the time though.

Use any contacts you may have and try the banks, some of them have graduate programs. If you're getting interviews you must be doing something right - they wouldn't talk to you if they didn't think you had potential.

Hobbes

Why is the question for "Irish programmers" ? Would that matter?

Kernel32

I was working fulltime in a warehouse and also completing my cert in commercial computing at night time when I got my first programming job. I applied for every single job even remotely related to programming. I interviewed many many times. I finally got a job at a tiny local software company. In order to start the job I had to take a pay cut and go into serious debt to put a car on the road.

spooydermot

started off working in a financial / call centre roll and finally talked my way into a programming job in the same company, then into Software testing then back to programming / SQL server (also in the same company)

GoneShootin

Thru college work placement for 6 months. Made sufficient contacts such that I was able to get in touch with companies when I left after my degree. Currently working as a PHP coder as a direct result from a reference from the company I worked for during my work placement. It took me a good 6 months of constant searching. Apply to employers directly, agencies "dont do graduates".

SeanW

Hobbes wrote:

Why is the question for "Irish programmers" ? Would that matter?

Yes, the stuff I had heard about sounds like it might be unique to Ireland. Could be wrong though. Maybe its the same everywhere.

Kernel32

It is the same in the states for new grad programmers. Its a bit more of an employers market right now than an employees. I recently hired someone but had a minimum of 4 years experience required. So why is it that experience is required? Well a graduate programmer is worse than useless in many respects. First you pay them a salary, then you have to absorb them into a team and train them which often costs in lost productivity for other team members. They eventually become productive and start paying for themseleves. Then they leave and work somewhere else. If I had a bigger team I might hire a graduate but I can get an experienced developer who can be productive within a couple of weeks. Its harsh but its reality. Even the likes of McDonalds get better ROI on inexperienced new hires than technology companies.

rsynnott

Would you believe through a programming competition?

bonkey

Asked my coop employers if they would take me back for a summer job. Was planning on doing a PhD afterwards.

Was offered a 1-year contract if my PhD fell through, so I took a one-year deferral instead and worked. Then they offered me a permie job, and I took that.

I've been lucky - people have offered me jobs whenever I've wanted/needed.

jc

Gegerty

Got a job through a FAS course in programming. Course was surprisingly good. Did the MCP in VB6. Also covered JAVA, C++, Design. Had 2 companies come to the FAS centre to interview people, one was JAVA the other was VB6. Got a job in the VB6 company. Having said that, the majority of the class did not get a job so I wouldn't recommend it. My first job was sooooo unbelievably bad! Crap pay (as you would expect coming from a FAS course) and got treated like scum. Same was going on for people in the Java job....but hey it was experience and I'm motoring now, have a decent job and an above average salary.

BC

I was lucky, i graduated in 1999 when everywhere was looking for programmers. We all had our pick of jobs.

dave_eire

Got a crap "technical" integration job for the summers in college and then moved on from there.

bit of advice, if your intrested - if you are MS programmer get MS certified or JAVA get sun. employers love that type of thing.

also get on to all the recruiters - i know most are a pain in the ass - but they usually have some stuff!

hope it helps,

d

SeanW

I researched Sun Certification of Java programmers (JDK 1.4) but you need 6 mo. experience for it. :mad: Didn't need any for JDK 5 but I didn't train with that one.

homeOwner

SeanW wrote:

I researched Sun Certification of Java programmers (JDK 1.4) but you need 6 mo. experience for it. :mad: Didn't need any for JDK 5 but I didn't train with that one.

I dont want be harsh but ...You say you are finding it hard getting a job (and it can be hard) but you say you didnt "train" with 1.4 - let me tell you if you expect to only work with what you learned in college or on a course then you are looking at joining the wrong career. IT/Programming/SW Engineering or whatever you want to call it is mostly about being able to grasp new technologies and pick things up on the fly and apply what you have already learned to a new situation. Teaching yourself is a major skill you will have to get to terms with if you are going to make a career in IT. YOur course work is just a foundation to give you the tools to pick up new things. Technologies are changing so quickly that you cant hope to find a job only working on something you learned in college. Saying you cant take an exam because you werent taught something is not going to get you very far. My advice is to code away on your own at home, read up on what is current and find out what employers are looking for. I guarantee you if you focus your attention on what skills employers want (agencies can tell you this) then you will land yourself a job. Good luck with it!

OMcGovern

I graduated with a degree from Kevin St in 1994.
Nobody was taking on graduates... and I was a pretty good C++ programmer at the time.

A lecturer in Kevin St gave me the name of a printing factory in Tallaght which needed a database administrator / network administrator.
I wasted away in there for 18 months, then found my first programming job.

Find any job to pay the bills.... keep studying at home till you get your break.
Eg. Java, J2EE, Struts, Hibernate. As the previous poster mentioned, you will be forced to learn new technologies on a regular basis.... it goes with the career.

Maybe write your own pet project, something you can show off at an interview.

regards,
Owen

wes

There are jobs out there for graduates. Took me 3 solid months of searching to find something, but got a job as Technical Analyst, not programming directly, but will be doing some plugin developement for revenue assurance software.

While the jobs out there may not all be programming, I have seen some good admin roles out there. After I strated at this job, a week into it got called for 2 interviews (didn't go since I already got a job). They are out there, but then again I was not just going for programming jobs (was looking for admin roles, testing etc as well). Keep at it, your getting interviews, so your on the right track. It took me like 5 interviews then I got 2 job offers in a row. Good Luck!

SeanW

homeOwner wrote:

I dont want be harsh but ...You say you are finding it hard getting a job (and it can be hard) but you say you didnt "train" with 1.4 - let me tell you if you expect to only work with what you learned in college or on a course then you are looking at joining the wrong career. IT/Programming/SW Engineering or whatever you want to call it is mostly about being able to grasp new technologies and pick things up on the fly and apply what you have already learned to a new situation. Teaching yourself is a major skill you will have to get to terms with if you are going to make a career in IT. YOur course work is just a foundation to give you the tools to pick up new things. Technologies are changing so quickly that you cant hope to find a job only working on something you learned in college. Saying you cant take an exam because you werent taught something is not going to get you very far. My advice is to code away on your own at home, read up on what is current and find out what employers are looking for. I guarantee you if you focus your attention on what skills employers want (agencies can tell you this) then you will land yourself a job. Good luck with it!

I know all that of course, but it just makes things a little trickier.

ButcherOfNog

Got my first job by doing an interview and being the best candidate.

oscarBravo

I was taken on as a sort of apprentice at the age of sixteen, back in 1987. I haven't gotten around to going to college yet.

Interestingly, there were a couple of college graduates in for my job - the man that hired me figured I'd have less crap to unlearn, and would be easier for him to train. I don't think he regretted it - I was there long after he'd left.

JohnK

I was on a FÁS course that included 3 months placement in a company and they kept me on after the course ended. That was nearly 2 years ago now.

protos

wandering off topic a bit :
graduated in 98 and went to Japan on the FAS Overseas Graduate programme, and am now thinking of heading home, but I have no idea what the IT jobs market is like. I have six years experience with three different companies with a whole range of technologies - C/C++/Java to webby stuff like xml/xslt, web services technologies.

When I left, companies were fighting each other to try and get and get us to sign up before we even finished our finals - sounds like its a lot different now !!
Whats the story with experienced people ? Is it about "who you know ?" cause if it is thats not good.

spooydermot

protos wrote:

I have six years experience with three different companies with a whole range of technologies - C/C++/Java to webby stuff like xml/xslt, web services technologies.

I might be being optimistic, but I think if you've got 6 years programming experience then you should well be able to find something over here

JohnK

protos wrote:

...
Is it about "who you know ?" cause if it is thats not good.

A lot of it is. With 6 years behind you you should have a good shot but to even get a chance at an interview you'd usually need to know someone.

homeOwner

JohnK wrote:

but to even get a chance at an interview you'd usually need to know someone.

Do you mean without experiece you would need to know someone to get an interview or in general in IT? Cause if you meant in general, thats bull.

Maybe graduates are finding it difficult but for anyone with even a few years experience there are loads of IT jobs out there. Check out monster.ie, irishjobs.ie or contact the agencies and send them your cv. You will get plenty of interviews - getting the job is another matter!

dent

Its pretty hard trying to get an I.T job when you are a graduate. I was lucky and managed to get an internship and am now full time.

wes

While it is a pain getting a job being a graduate, I got one. It took a while, but while I was looking I got plently of interviews. Graduate jobs are out there, it just takes some looking. Also a lot of my friends who graduated all have jobs, so yeah its hard but not impossible.

If you have experience I reckon you would have no problem at all finding a job.

Slaanesh

My dad was having coffee in the house with a friend in the jukebox industry in Ireland. This was back in 2000 and they were discussing some new mp3 jukebox technology. I piped in some knowledge and he said he might be able to use me. 3 days later he rang me. Started off in the company when there was only 2 computers. Now we are in a new office with over 10 computers, loads more staff, servers which I pretty much setup from back in the day.

Always had a part time job with them when I was in college. Got my degree and buggered off to Australia for 8 months and when I came home they took me back as a full time programmer/whateverthehellneedstobedone kind of person. Now i'm designing digital jukebox's and background music systems, pretty cool

I got lucky basically.

JohnK

homeOwner wrote:

Do you mean without experiece you would need to know someone to get an interview or in general in IT? Cause if you meant in general, thats bull.

I'm talking only of programming jobs (I have no idea of other jobs in IT). The VAST majority of companys I know will only take CV's that are refered by an existing member of staff. CV's that are just posted in tend to be ignored or dumped.

Fmicrochip

The reason I was hired as a graduate was because of work I had done in my own time.

I suggest doing some projects in your own time and advertise these on your CV.
Also bring some of this material to the interview to show the interviewer - it is more impressive than turning up with nothing.

The point of this is to show the employer you can do the job, show him one of your projects and say "here's the proof"!

I wouldn't argue with that.

Kernel32

Fmicrochip wrote:

I suggest doing some projects in your own time and advertise these on your CV.
Also bring some of this material to the interview to show the interviewer - it is more impressive than turning up with nothing.

I would agree with this. When I got my first job I was finishing a certificate in commercial computing at an RTC by night. It was purely just to have some sort of qualification as the course was generally very poor. Anyway, I had a pretty decent code base for my final project. It was a stock control system, boring enough but very functional. I brought it to an interview and was able to show it working. This was the only interview I brought it too. It turned out that some of the stuff I was doing like dynamic data loading and scrolling was nearly exactly how this professional software company was also doing it. I was offered the job the next day.

I just recently hired two programmers, experienced guys but still it was interesting interviewing people again as I haven't done it in a while. Do not under estimate how important leaving a good impression at an interview is. Most people that I interviewed I mentally struck them off the list within 10 minutes of talking to them. This one guy stands out in particular. When he came in I think he was surprised to see I wasn't a suit wearing manager looking type so he immediately wanted to be buddy buddy with me. Within 60 seconds of meeting this guy I knew I would not hire him. I went through the motions of the interview and sent him on his way. When you conduct interviews you get so much better insight into what will leave a good impression and what won't.

protos

Kernel32 wrote:

When you conduct interviews you get so much better insight into what will leave a good impression and what won't.

And what does make a good impression ? When you're asked questions like -
"what are your strong and week points ?"
does the answer really matter - surely the interviewer knows that you're just reeling off some stock answer from an interview tips website.

Interviews are pretty stressful - its hard for anyone to be themselves in that kind of situation.

Fmicrochip

And what does make a good impression ? When you're asked questions like -
"what are your strong and week points ?"
does the answer really matter - surely the interviewer knows that you're just reeling off some stock answer from an interview tips website.

This is a good point. In some companies, employees will get HR training e.g. Interviewing Skills which is useful.

But from the interviewee perspective, you must control the interview, answer those types of questions in a way that puts across your points. When you go into an interview you must have an idea of what you want to tell the interviewer and no matter what questions are asked you can throw in the information you want them to hear.

Kernel32

When I interview someone I am looking for a few things. First is, does this person have some level of social skills that will allow them to become a team member. That is really a gut instinct thing for me.

I always have a candidate talk about his resume with me so I understand it. This can be very telling about a person. One candidate who didn't make it comes to mind because he lost me on this part of the interview. He was very experienced but he went off into a long meandering detailed technical description of this one project he worked on. He made two big mistakes. First mistake is I don't give a crap about the detail of his project. Second mistake was that he described it at the technical level. The position was a senior position and he should have described it in terms of design and patterns. Lesson to be learned, talk about subject matter in the context of the position you are being interviewed for.

I want to know if the candidate has a good foundation of knowledge. I ask fundamental questions. What is a class, what is an interface, what is cohesion. I want answers that are not tied to any particular language. A fresh graduate should be able to answer these questions, never mind someone experienced and I would say at least half the developers I interview cannot answer these type of questions with an air of confidence in their answer.

I want to know if the candidate has a good grasp of the basics of the core technologies that got them to the interview stage. I deal mainly in .Net so I would ask what an assembly is, what is the GAC, describe the lifecycle of an asp.net page. Stuff like that, no code just basics. Again many developers are unable to answer these questions even though the job was advertised as senior .net developer.

I don't ask what your weak and strong points are. As a manager that's my job to figure out and direct the persons talents in the right direction. I do ask scenario type questions. One very simple one is how to troubleshoot. Example: You have a major problem in production and you are the senior person to take the lead on resolving the problem, what do you do? I have several like this that I might ask. Which takes me back to weak points and strong points, how you react to a situation will highlight those.

I want to see someone who considers what they do a profession and will conduct themselves professionally. I don't mean wear a shirt and tie, you can appear professional with shorts and sandals if you conduct yourself in a professional manner. I want someone who will answer with a level of confidence in their response. A response of "I don't know" said the right way can have a positive impact versus an incoherent jabbering to cover up that you don't have an answer.