Alternative to speed ramps

DubTony

I'm not sure if this should go here or in motors, but here goes anyway.

I live in Firhouse and in the past few weeks they've added speed ramps in the area, as well as constructing a roundabout as a safety measure at a junction on a hill. (Nice idea)

The new ramps seem extremely hard and travelling at anything above 25 kmh sends a tremor through the car (Volvo S40 Sport). Now, I know the suspension on the car's a bit tighter than usual, but most of the other ramps I regularly go over don't seem as tough. I'd hate to have to go over these things in a car with a lowered and stiffened suspension.

Buses use this route all day, and trucks regularly use it to deliver to the local Super-Valu supermarket. Noise alone from trucks going over ramps can be intolerable. There's also the pollution aspect to be considered, as vehicles accelerating naturally pollute more. These ramps have been laid along the main road of a housing estate.

Anyway, my question is this. Is there a better alternative to speed ramps that would take these factors into account?

saobh_ie

Quite simply yes.

Speed bumps are no longer considered best practise and I was under the impression that knowing this the various local authorities had already desisted from constructing them. I’ve seen some horrible speed bumps in my time, in fact an engineer friend of mine currently working way out west I believe holds the claim to fame of having created the country’s largest series of bumps to solve an IR issue. =]

I believe speed cushions are now considered to be best practise, not everyone knows what they are so here’s a picture.



These things should be getting put down anywhere that there are bus routes, hospitals and fire stations. Because if properly constructed you can drive over them at full speed without any bother. This is so that people walking in, sitting in or standing in a bus don’t get throw around the place. Likewise ambulances, rushing back to the hospital with a critical casualty, the driver comes around a bend, doesn’t notice a speed bump, steps on the brakes. The guy working in back goes off balance and when the wagon hits the bump gets catapulted into the overhead storage and knocked out. Near fire stations so those guys can just put the foot to the floor and get to where they need to be instead of… what… they hoof over speed bumps anyway… I’d imagine it saves on maintenance costs.

Of course, these being Ireland, with state bodies looking after the roads do not expect them to be correctly emplaced or sized.

I’ve seen speed cushion emplacements in housing estates in this country that are positively dangerous. Too many across a road, too few, too close together, too far apart, A complete disaster. Cars driving full whack just pulling into the middle of the road to go through gaps while if they had so desired they could have continued at that speed on the same side of the road with the cushion passing between there wheels as it were.

Actually this is probably why speed bumps are being brought back in, because speed cushions actually require a couple of minutes to plan out and a little on site direction to the contractors (a can of spray paint and three minutes if they can’t be trusted to correctly interpret drawings). Speed bumps are easy and are guaranteed to stop traffic.

I came over one today at 20km/h and there was a terrific bang; it was one of the stop, creep, mount, gas, stop, dismount, creep, gas and away type. I can only imagine the sound in the adjacent houses at night.

Rumble strips aren’t really affective, all they do is make loads of noise, and you know they’ll only make loads of noise. Waking the kids in the house they’re outside of, they’re only useful on the approaches to junctions to alert sleeping drivers that there’s a junction coming up.

Speed cushions scare everyone however because they know they can mount and travel over a speed bump, they’ve no choice. But they see a series of these things; they’re like teeth ready to rip the bottom out of your car. They’re not but they look that way.

Studies in the UK show that the majority of people mount one wheel on the cushion and one in the gap when they go over them. But to do that they slow down, look around and do all sorts.

I think it belongs in commuting, with the other sensible discussions about transportation issues. (Okay some of the cyclists can be a little mental =P but most everything else makes some sense. j/k)

mackerski

Can I be the one to suggest speed limits? I've never seen the point of installing expensive contrivances designed to limit motorists to a speed slower than the one the signage tells them they are permitted to drive at. Especially when they are guaranteed to damage vehicles no matter how slowly they drive.

Dermot

saobh_ie

Eh Yeah. That'd work but then what would hundreds of council road workers do?

Because speed bumps is all they know. They're certainly not experts at pot hole repair.

RicardoSmith

saobh_ie wrote:

....if properly constructed you can drive over them at full speed without any bother....

Once people know that, won't they just go full pelt over them? Seems pointless.

I hate speed bumps myself, but people just won't slow down.

CrimE

Im not really grasping the concept of these. So basically you can if you choose to do so drive over them at full speed with no problem, which is grand for the gardaí, ambulances etc. etc. but why would everyone else not avoid them in the same way?

dmeehan

CrimE wrote:

Im not really grasping the concept of these. So basically you can if you choose to do so drive over them at full speed with no problem, which is grand for the gardaí, ambulances etc. etc. but why would everyone else not avoid them in the same way?

my thoughts exactly. I'm glad someone else pointed this out, i thought i was missing something obvious

Doodah7

They have them around Terenure and yes you can drive over them normally and they don't slow you down...

Kind of defeats the purpose methinks...

saobh_ie

Because your all (statistically speaking) cowards. That's why you don't drive over them full speed. Also your car doesn't have the wheel base width of a bus or an ambulance.

They make you slow down, it would take a great deal of fore though and commitment to drive over them without slowing. Would you risk your car by driving over something like that at full speed.

Considering people brake for pieces of foam and plastic bags...

cyclopath2001

DubTony wrote:

I live in Firhouse and in the past few weeks they've added speed ramps in the area, ...... There's also the pollution aspect to be considered, as vehicles accelerating naturally pollute more. .....Anyway, my question is this. Is there a better alternative to speed ramps that would take these factors into account?

Er, I think the idea is that drivers should drive at a constant speed, taking account of the ramps. Accelerating, between ramps, as you describe, shows that the drivers are just not getting the message that it's unsafe to speed through residential areas.

An alternative? GPS systems in cars that report on the speed being done, linked to the Gardai, with instant attribution of penalty points. The GPS would also serve as an aid for recovering stolen vehicles. Insurance companies would be able to more accurately load drivers with dangerous driving habits.

The technology is very cheap and is already in use by some fleet managers. I can only guess that powerful vested interests would oppose this life-saving measure from being introduced generally.

StonedParadoX

"""Likewise ambulances, rushing back to the hospital with a critical casualty, the driver comes around a bend, doesn’t notice a speed bump, steps on the brakes. The guy working in back goes off balance and when the wagon hits the bump gets catapulted into the overhead storage and knocked out."""

LOL LOL LOL

RicardoSmith

saobh_ie wrote:

Because your all (statistically speaking) cowards. That's why you don't drive over them full speed. Also your car doesn't have the wheel base width of a bus or an ambulance.

They make you slow down, it would take a great deal of fore though and commitment to drive over them without slowing. Would you risk your car by driving over something like that at full speed.

Considering people brake for pieces of foam and plastic bags...

I think pieces of foam and plastic bags would be more cost effective then. The people that slow down for that wouldn't be speeding in the first place.

luckat

Speed bumps (sleeping policemen) and speed cushions both serve an important purpose: they make money for cement companies.

DubTony

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Er, I think the idea is that drivers should drive at a constant speed, taking account of the ramps. Accelerating, between ramps, as you describe, shows that the drivers are just not getting the message that it's unsafe to speed through residential areas.

The 25 km/h over the ramps is hardly a speed that could be sustained, so people accelerate between them. I'm sure when you're cycling and you see a bump you slow down and then speed up after you pass it. As I stated, the roads in question are the main roads in a housing estate. I should have mentioned that there are no houses on these roads. The speed limit is 50k. Most people don't exceed it.

blorg

We had speed bumps installed in our road and it has definately cut speeds without any problems that I can notice for the residents. It's the sort of road people shouldn't really be doing more than 30kph on in any case IMHO (quite narrow and residential.)

RicardoSmith

blorg wrote:

We had speed bumps installed in our road and it has definately cut speeds without any problems that I can notice for the residents. It's the sort of road people shouldn't really be doing more than 30kph on in any case IMHO (quite narrow and residential.)

If the bumps are severe enough they'll bring the speed down. But I hate them.

cyclopath2001

DubTony wrote:

The 25 km/h over the ramps is hardly a speed that could be sustained, so people accelerate between them. I'm sure when you're cycling and you see a bump you slow down and then speed up after you pass it. As I stated, the roads in question are the main roads in a housing estate. I should have mentioned that there are no houses on these roads. The speed limit is 50k. Most people don't exceed it.

Depending on the design & if there are any cars inconsiderately parked blocking the channel usually left for cyclists to pass through, it's often possible for cyclists to avoid speed bumps completely.

If there are no houses along the road, it sounds odd that there should be speed-bumps. Any schools? Do pedestrians need to cross a lot? The 50kph is an upper limit, not a target. 25kph would generally be much less likely to cause death or serious injury than 50kph in the event of a car/cyclist or car/pedestrian collision. In some circumstances, motorists are legally required to travel lower speeds than the legal limit, or risk being prosecuted for dangerous driving.

Victor

luckat wrote:

Speed bumps (sleeping policemen) and speed cushions both serve an important purpose: they make money for cement companies.

Thats odd, most are made of patterned asphalt these days.

RainyDay

What's the best car to go over speed bumps at 50 mph?

























A company car.

mackerski

blorg wrote:

We had speed bumps installed in our road and it has definately cut speeds without any problems that I can notice for the residents. It's the sort of road people shouldn't really be doing more than 30kph on in any case IMHO (quite narrow and residential.)

So a suitable first step, before going to the expense and damage of ramps, would surely have been to impose a 30km/h limit. It's insane to post one limit and have councils reach a private conclusion that they should physically enforce a lower one.

Dermot

gobdaw

Victor wrote:

Thats odd, most are made of patterned asphalt these days.

In the better more upmarket areas, they use concrete paving bricks!

GreeBo

gobdaw wrote:

In the better more upmarket areas, they use concrete paving bricks!

nah, thats just "designed" concrete or something, they are not actually bricks (any more).

Victor

gobdaw wrote:

In the better more upmarket areas, they use concrete paving bricks!

Not anymore, the bricks had a tendancy to come loose.

Victor

mackerski wrote:

So a suitable first step, before going to the expense and damage of ramps, would surely have been to impose a 30km/h limit. It's insane to post one limit and have councils reach a private conclusion that they should physically enforce a lower one.

Legally you can only impose the 30km/h limit if there is already traffic claming measures in place. I'm not sure if traffic claming measures are defined.

DubTony

blorg wrote:

We had speed bumps installed in our road and it has definately cut speeds without any problems that I can notice for the residents. It's the sort of road people shouldn't really be doing more than 30kph on in any case IMHO (quite narrow and residential.)

Maybe that's an answer. Narrow the roads to a point that anything above (the special speed limit of) 30km/h would seem excessive.

cyclopath2001 wrote:

If there are no houses along the road, it sounds odd that there should be speed-bumps. Any schools? Do pedestrians need to cross a lot?

Sorry, I neglected to mention the school. And peds use it to get to and from the local shopping centre and church. There's also a community centre on an adjoining road with playing fields. While I agree that speed reduction is a good thing for the area, I still feel there has to be a better way.

saobh_ie

RainyDay wrote:

What's the best car to go over speed bumps at 50 mph?


A company car.

A stolen car, great fun I'd imagine. 60 to 80km/h, speed bump. KaBANG!

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Legally you can only impose the 30km/h limit if there is already traffic claming measures in place. I'm not sure if traffic claming measures are defined.

I know. It's an utterly dense approach, and out of step with how things are done elsewhere. The limit should always be dropped once the case is proved for needing it, and measures that cause physical damage should be a last resort, if even that. And I don't want to hear any guff about 30 zones being impossible to police. They manage OK on the motorways and other safe roads.

Dermot

lostinsuperfunk

Chicanes are a suspension-friendly alternative to speed ramps. They seem to be fairly widely used in the UK.

Victor

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

Chicanes are a suspension-friendly alternative to speed ramps. They seem to be fairly widely used in the UK.

May not be steering or pedestrian friendly.

Metrobest

Has anyone else noticed a sign at some of the residential streets in Portobello, green signs labelled "Environmental Area" (It has a representation of a car, a tree, a bike and a pedestrian; last time I checked, cars were emitting poisonous gases so these "Enviormental" Areas are little more than Pollution Areas.)

Wouldn't it be more sensible to create a colour-coded zonal system for roads around residential areas. "Green Zone" could mean a 20 Km/h speed limit, shared roadspace with cyclists with cyclists getting priority on all occasions. "Blue" could mean a 30km/h speed limit with fully segregated cycle lanes. "Purple" Zones could have a 40km/h limit: this would apply on extremely wide roads in less densely populated areas.

RicardoSmith

Metrobest wrote:

....Wouldn't it be more sensible to create a colour-coded zonal system ....

Is that not what speed signs are for?

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

Chicanes are a suspension-friendly alternative to speed ramps. They seem to be fairly widely used in the UK.

When the roads not busy, you can speed through Chicanes

rainbow kirby

I live in Firhouse and in the past few weeks they've added speed ramps in the area, as well as constructing a roundabout as a safety measure at a junction on a hill. (Nice idea)

Argh. Those ramps are a disaster. I've a dodgy back at the moment... and it's boneshaking on the 49 coming in from town. Quite a few of them are very badly placed too.

OMcGovern

I propose "speed mines".... a bit like land mines, but they only go off if you break the speed limit....

You do realise, that in our lifetimes, we're probably going to end up with GPS or RFID tags in our cars. Tracking our speed will become much easier....
So enjoy these "dark ages" of speed detection !

Rovi

saobh_ie wrote:

RainyDay wrote:

What's the best car to go over speed bumps at 50 mph?


A company car.

A stolen car, great fun I'd imagine. 60 to 80km/h, speed bump. KaBANG!

Actually, it's a 4x4 off-road racer with big tough wheels and tyres and long travel slinky suspension.

These things laugh in the face of speed bumps, potholes, humpback bridges, etc, and give rise to much entertainment in the removal of tailgaters.

Allegedly.

Ahem!

Cough!



.

Corben Dallas

The speed bumps in finglas are vicious! they're the old type(no one makes these anymore) that are just shaped angled red bricks, they are just plain dangerous. Everytime I go over there i can feel bits of my suspension falling off. They should be changed.

I know speed bumps also are their to stop joyriders, but its not as if they give a feck about wreckin the cars wheels/suspension, its not their car.
I would really hate to live in an area and have to drive over those old type every day.

iregk

I think speed ramps are good as long as they are made correctly. the rubber ones that are about two foot wide are fine adn slow you down. however in tallaght i have seen some horrendous ones. around teh corner from my mothers house there is one that no joking is just under 2ft high!!! you'd need a land rover going over it, council job and basically a big lump of tar dumped on the road, shaped and painted.

In anyones language thats ridiculous.

saobh_ie

Agreed, hit one of those angled brick ones in Finglas doing 20km/h or something, pedestrians were passing me, and it was like driving up on the kerb...

would have been better off... damn pedestrians thinking they can pass me... lol

Bee

How can any intelligent road user find anything positive about road ramps?

Dublin City Council show a total disregard for all road users safety by continuing to give contracts to their “friends” (sorry, after a “public tender” of course ) to install road ramps.

These ramps kill people

Most serious of all is the delay which ramps cause to emergency vehicles.
Ambulances rushing an injured patient to hospital may have to slow to a ridiculously low speed to negotiate a ramp; in cases of severe injury they may have to find an alternative route to avoid the ramps altogether.

Every second counts to a heart attack victim. Remember the Traffic Dept of DCC has built ramps outside of hospitals, for heavens sake! how idiotic can they be?

I would love to see one of DCC’s joke “Traffic” engineers travel with a seriously ill relative either suffering a heart attack or a spinal injury and watch the fun the ambulance driver has as he loses seconds getting the victim to an A&E or the joy the paramedic has in getting a line into a stroke/heart attack victims vein with clot busting drugs whilst bouncing over the ramps.

Of course DCC continously ignore the disabled and the elderly, they don't give a damn.

Ramps discriminate against the severely disabled, elderly frail people, and those with serious back or neck problems.

Disabled people may have to travel in a wheelchair strapped into a vehicle. Jolts from speed ramps may cause such persons severe pain, and even permanent injury, as a result they may be unable to traverse ramps safely and are thus prevented from using the road altogether. Ramps in residential areas may effectively prevent these people from leaving their own homes by vehicular means.

Ramps bus routes present a serious danger to bus passengers, especially the elderly. The jolt caused by a ramp whilst walking along the aisle, or using the stairs on a double-decker could easily cause a fall, resulting in serious injury

Anything braking hard on ramps will be more inclined to lose control and skid with tragic results.

Now I could go on about the numerous increased traffic dangers created by ramps but I will be interested to see what you guys think.

Bee

cyclopath2001

Bee wrote:

How can any intelligent road user find anything positive about road ramps?

Because they are the lesser of two evils? One alternative is to trust motorists to observe drive at approprate speeds. In Ireland, that doesn't work. What alternative would YOU propose?

Bee wrote:

These ramps kill people

Evidence? Statistics?

Bee

Cyclopath2001, you are missing a fundamental point. Road ramps especially the unprofessional implementations by DCC affect more than just road users and I re-iterate-

They are dangerous to the elderly,disabled and all compliant road users. Thug joy riders and loony cyclists are not slowed down or made more careful road users by ramps. Joy riding cars speeding over them can lose control or can skid more easily due to the uneven traction created by them. I expect the recent fatality in O'Connell St will highlight uneven traction at the Spire. The front wheels of the bus were on the new pavement, higher that the rear wheels on the older section of the road. This may have resulted in poor braking and skidding. Cyclists often cycle around the outside of speed cushions or cross the ramps diagonally to reduce the impact ignoring other road users.

I think of all in the community not just road users. In one minute, a fast-burning fire can destroy a building. One minute can be the window of opportunity for a critically injured child, heart attack victim or other medical emergency. A criminal can escape the scene of a crime in less than a minute. For fire, ambulance and police vehicles, every second counts. A delay of just one minute due to speed ramps ... can mean the difference between life and death. Inefficient traffic flow on an access route to a hospital puts lives at stake. Liability issues associated with traffic calming are never considered due to our so called "Traffic engineers"

Someone who I have a lot of respect for is Sigurd Reinton, you can interpret his quote on a pro-rata basis for Dublin; "THE Chairman of the London Ambulance Service Sigurd Reinton, called for a review of traffic-calming policies in London earlier this year, said:"We remain concerned about the extent of traffic-calming measures in the capital and the knock-on effect of delayed ambulance response times to emergency calls. "We feel that the focus on reducing road deaths by cutting traffic speeds through the introduction of traffic-calming measures is well-intentioned but misplaced. Despite a reduction in average road speeds between 1995 and 2002, the number of road deaths in the capital actually increased from 217 to 280 a year during this period. He added: "We believe the focus on reducing road deaths alone through the implementation of traffic-calming is too narrow. We should be focusing on all avoidable death or, at the very least on accidenta ldeath - including medical accidents such as heart attacks or cardiac arrests. Road deaths are only the tip of the iceberg ."Last year there were 280 road deaths in London but approximately 8,000 cardiac arrests. It is estimated that a reduction of one minute in average ambulance response times could save in the region of 500 lives a year. Discussions continue to take place between the Service and other key agencies"

Think of the entire community endangered by ramps

Bee

daymobrew

Bee wrote:

Of course DCC continously ignore the disabled and the elderly, they don't give a damn.

Remember that, beginning March 2003, DCC turned off audible traffic signals (for the blind) because "some sighted pedestrians had complained to the City Council that they were being confused by the tones and were walking into the path of on-coming traffic" (quote from a NCBI article - an update of the one linked).

The sighted pedestrians weren't looking! They have obviously forgotten the Safe Cross Code. Morons.
DCC said that they had a duty of care to "all pedestrians" though I feel that the more vunerable (and that doesn't mean 'stupid') need to be shown more care.
Thankfully DCC are turning the audible signals back on.

cyclopath2001

Bee wrote:

Cyclopath2001, you are missing a fundamental point.

I dislike speed-ramps too, they make my lawful cycling more uncomfortable and sometimes more dangerous.

The point is 'what is an alternative, effective way to limit the speed of those road-users who ignore the laws and who ignore the safety and well being of others'?

I've already made a proposal (mandatory GPS tracking of all motor vehicles), what's yours?

gobdaw

I suppose the suggested Dublin City Council new speed limits ( 30 kph/18 mph) seem interesting, especially if, though unlikely, that a serious policy of enforcement is put in place by the powers-that-be.
During "rush hour" average car speeds in the city are much less than this, sometimes less even that walking speed, so the proposal should have little efect on daytime journey times. It would impinge on off-peak journeys which is when traffic calming measures are required.

Mucco

Bee wrote:

Someone who I have a lot of respect for is Sigurd Reinton, you can interpret his quote on a pro-rata basis for Dublin; "THE Chairman of the London Ambulance Service Sigurd Reinton, called for a review of traffic-calming policies in London earlier this year, said:"We remain concerned about the extent of traffic-calming measures in the capital and the knock-on effect of delayed ambulance response times to emergency calls. "We feel that the focus on reducing road deaths by cutting traffic speeds through the introduction of traffic-calming measures is well-intentioned but misplaced. Despite a reduction in average road speeds between 1995 and 2002, the number of road deaths in the capital actually increased from 217 to 280 a year during this period. He added: "We believe the focus on reducing road deaths alone through the implementation of traffic-calming is too narrow. We should be focusing on all avoidable death or, at the very least on accidenta ldeath - including medical accidents such as heart attacks or cardiac arrests. Road deaths are only the tip of the iceberg ."Last year there were 280 road deaths in London but approximately 8,000 cardiac arrests. It is estimated that a reduction of one minute in average ambulance response times could save in the region of 500 lives a year. Discussions continue to take place between the Service and other key agencies"

Think of the entire community endangered by ramps

Bee

Those remarks have since been withdrawn:
http://london.greenparty.org.uk/news/417